EV Digest 3825
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: ProEV's Imp on track!
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Woodburn 2004
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Woodburn 2004
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Woodburn 2004
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Woodburn 2004... :)
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: "Gone Postal" Woodburn update
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Woodburn 2004
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
by David Chapman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Calculating size of Capacitor for Electric PS Pump
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: newbie questions, Diablo conversion
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: ProEV's Imp on track!
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: ProEV's Imp on track!
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Calculating size of Capacitor for Electric PS Pump
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) ProEV's Imp on track! (part 2) (long)
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Calculating size of Capacitor for Electric PS Pump
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Ultracap cell balancing
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Woodburn 2004
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: The first EV sports car
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Woodburn 2004
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Ultracap cell balancing
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: "Gone Postal" Woodburn update
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: ProEV's Imp on track!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: ProEV's Imp on track! (part 2) (long)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: The first EV sports car
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hope to hear more about those batteries , Jon is down your way and has a pfc
20 in his truck which if he isn;t working I'm sure you could use it or I
have a 30 but am up in Fort Pierce , whats left of it , ..
also did you try a new fuse , I did almost the same thing and all that was
wrong was the fuse ,
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Now, we are at the race track. There is a race tomorrow. We have less the
a
> quarter charge, but..
>
> To be continued
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You mean like pulling a VW ICE from under the hood of a postal van? Just
kidding.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
You ever seen reality TV, Well take it from me it ain't reality.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave, You are right on! The postal van was actually made at the
factory as an electric but to try to give the audenciece a feel for
what it takes to do a conversion we faked that part.
My Quote: Reality TV makes you doubt the truth of your own fantisies
Roderick
You mean like pulling a VW ICE from under the hood of a postal van?
Just kidding.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
You ever seen reality TV, Well take it from me it ain't reality.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My apologies for th atrocious spelling of "audience" in my last
posting. It is actually late for me. I assure you I will be much more
controversial in the morning.
Roderick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Probably the best laugh I've had all day :) You need that after
crunching transmission line equations all day for homework and not
getting to work on your EV.
Yes, sidline quarterbacking racing is all that ever goes on, on this
list. It's what makes it fun and gets the viewers to tune in. Hey Roy,
You ever seen reality TV, Well take it from me it ain't reality. Where
the rubber meets the road is where reality is and if it's too hot in
the kitchen for you then back off as Rudman and I duke it out on the
forum. If the higher ups can't take it they will tell us to take it
elsewhere. Otherwise chill dude!
Roderick
------------------------------------
Rich Rudman wrote:
I've driven just the back drive
and I know what a dog slow car feels like. "Gone Postal" is effective
because of the all wheel drive.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
Oh fearless leader.
Give yourself some credit where it's due!
You are so far into the past with your motor racing skills that you can't
see what's been handed you.
Amps are NOT only thing that makes you move down the strip.
Amps in a motor that is NOT pukeing fire balls and brush chunks makes
power.
It's pretty clear you have hurt the front motor now. That motor never
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:46 PM 9/26/2004, you wrote:
>Well, back to the track, right around the eighth mile I shift into fifth
>gear and also right about then the built in series/parallel function of
>the Zilla's "Hairball" kicks in and I have to hold on as the electric
>nitrous slams be back in the seat.
Hmmm. If you're running what amounts to two separate drivetrains, how do
you keep the wheel rpms synchronized between the front and rear drives?
Unlike your typical 4X4, the two drives in Going Postal are not
linked together in any way, aside from the throttle linkage. There are
actually three motors working together.
There is absolutely no problem getting series-wound DC motors to
run in tandem. (My bike has two motors as does Otmar's car, as does Rich
Brown's car........) Unlike GP, these EVs have just two motors wired in
parallel at the starts and then switched to series as the speed goes up a bit.
When wired in series, both motors have equal torque and will
divide the voltage proportional to their rpm. The faster motor will drop
more voltage and output more HP. If they have the same RPM, they will each
put out the same HP.
When they are wired in parallel, it gets a bit more tricky. The
math is not so simple, but the end result is not too hard to understand.
Both motors see the same voltage. The slower motor hogs the current and
puts out more HP. Unlike the series case, however, the HP ratio is not
proportional to the rpm ratio, but is roughly proportional to the square of
the rpm ratio.
Wire them in parallel, and you get a very effective
"posi-traction" effect.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Rod~
That show was what got me interested in EVs. I can see the writing on the
wall, and it says that fossil fuels for vehicles is going the way of the
dinosaurs. I also am tired of: a) Funding OPEC and the people they support,
b) Watching the cost per mile increase every week while my income stays the
same (VA disability and Military retirement), c) Paying for SMOG tests and
catalytic converters and tune-ups etc just for the privilege of getting from
point "A" to point "B", d) seeing the air and water of the earth turned into
septic wastelands from ICE by-products. I want to build or buy my own EV of
some sort, but I am still a novice about the science. That is why I lurk
here, listening to you guys hash out the problems, share your experience and
crow over the victories. In my mind, it is the right thing to do. Ok, back
to lurking
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: Woodburn 2004
Dave, You are right on! The postal van was actually made at the factory as
an electric but to try to give the audenciece a feel for what it takes to
do a conversion we faked that part.
My Quote: Reality TV makes you doubt the truth of your own fantisies
Roderick
You mean like pulling a VW ICE from under the hood of a postal van? Just
kidding.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
You ever seen reality TV, Well take it from me it ain't reality.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Grant,
Industrial Liquidators has some of the EV Warrior overrunning clutch/drive
rollers for sale on E-bay in their E-bay store, they come with the knurled
roller and IIRC the price is in the 5 buck ea range. If those won't suit
your needs, I found similar overrunning clutches in the Browning catalog,
they are typically used on conveyer systems. Many different sizes and
specs. David Chapman.
At 09:09 AM 9/28/04 -0700, you wrote:
Hi All,
I'm looking for an overrun clutch to put regen on
scooter and bicycle applications so that the motor
freewheel can be disengaged for regen.
Ideally, here's what we're looking for: a compact
overrunning clutch or ratchet mechanism with on-demand
lockout, preferably with outer diameter 1.5 inches or
less (so we can get a bearing of reasonable size
around the outside) and inner diameter 0.875 in or
greater to accommodate wheel axle.
If anybody knows of suppliers for such a device it
would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
grant-
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:23:58 -0700, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Evan - thanks. I feel sorta silly - of course the SLA acc battery should
> > handle the peak current! No need to mess around with ultra caps.
> >
> > thanks
> > Don
>
> A good small SLA battery will help with the peak surge current
> the pump will require. A cap can do it easily too, and will be
> far smaller, lighter, but more expensive solution. What I told Ron
> was that technically it is easy task for an ultracap; that doesn't
> mean is it best solution for his particular case.
{cut]
>
> A capacitor will not fail unless is defective to begin with,
> and will not need replacement. For the info, BMW uses steering
> pump run entirely off of ultracaps, although of course they realise
> there is cheap SLA solution.
I didn't know that! I bet it consists of more than just an ultracap
hooked across the motor terminals though?
Anyway. I think the real question is - why on earth does a *mini*
need power steering in the first place?! :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Simon,
It sounds like you have a big budget and you want to build a car that
goes fast.
Have you had a look at what the lads at www.proev.com have done with
Kokam Li-Poly cells?
These batteries have grown up from the radio controlled airplane market,
where light weight and high output are the required characteristics.
They don't look anywhere near as robust as the TS cells, but according
to the specs at http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery03.html they
are slightly lighter, and can deliver 10C peak and 5C continuous with a
power density of 1000W per kg.
200kg of batteries is 200kW of power - yummy :-)
(Of course, all this info should be taken with a large grain of
marketing dept salt.)
With this sort of current on tap, you wouldn't need to worry about the
complexity of adding a string of ultracaps or lead batteries.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It almost didn't happen! We had to work some late nights. And late nights
mean mistakes. While we didn't have any 'Plasma Boy' caliber
pyrotechnics,
we did manage to put our PFC50 charger out of action. Note to self: When
charging, positive to positive, negative to negative, not visa-versa.
You did it AGAIN!????
Geez I just fixed that feature.... a couple of months ago.
You did. Sorry Rich. I quess I should have put a date on the message. This
is a write up of the race weekend in July. You have already fixed the PFC50
and it is safe in it's container. I am just a little behind in my typing.
Hurry I have 4 PFC50s in stock.... Er 2. Two are sold...
As of today....
I can get you the XRev... but we need to talk first, Since it's kinda
modified for the PFC150 project...
Modified... for 75 amps of grid, counter flow Fans, and Back entry
Cables.... All 4 Gage....At your voltages... that would be a 18Kw
charger....
Skunk works chargers.... Fly with caution!!!
It sounds like a beauty but where do you plug it in?
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the offer. I should have put a date on the posting. This all
happened in July. I just type real slowly <G>. Rich has fixed the PFC50 and
sent it back, so I am all set. We have a race in Homestead this weekend. All
the hurricane prep put us a little behind but nothing like the extra work
you guys have had.
We will be running again in West Palm Beach Oct 30-31. Come down if you can.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: ProEV's Imp on track!
Hope to hear more about those batteries , Jon is down your way and has a
pfc
20 in his truck which if he isn;t working I'm sure you could use it or I
have a 30 but am up in Fort Pierce , whats left of it , ..
also did you try a new fuse , I did almost the same thing and all that was
wrong was the fuse ,
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Now, we are at the race track. There is a race tomorrow. We have less the
a
quarter charge, but..
To be continued
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan - how did you know about my other project?
http://www3.telus.net/DonsMiniSite/ ???
Don
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: September 29, 2004 2:01 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Calculating size of Capacitor for Electric PS Pump
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 14:23:58 -0700, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Evan - thanks. I feel sorta silly - of course the SLA acc battery
> > should handle the peak current! No need to mess around with ultra caps.
> >
> > thanks
> > Don
>
> A good small SLA battery will help with the peak surge current the
> pump will require. A cap can do it easily too, and will be far
> smaller, lighter, but more expensive solution. What I told Ron was
> that technically it is easy task for an ultracap; that doesn't mean is
> it best solution for his particular case.
{cut]
>
> A capacitor will not fail unless is defective to begin with, and will
> not need replacement. For the info, BMW uses steering pump run
> entirely off of ultracaps, although of course they realise there is
> cheap SLA solution.
I didn't know that! I bet it consists of more than just an ultracap hooked
across the motor terminals though?
Anyway. I think the real question is - why on earth does a *mini* need
power steering in the first place?! :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a write up of our adventures back in July. I have been a little slow
posting but with our next race (at Homestead-Miami Speedway) coming up this
weekend, I figured I better get it done.
The story so far..
ProEV's Kokam battery powered Electric Imp is sitting at Moroso Motorsports
Park on the night before a Sports Car Club of America race. There are a
million reasons that we cannot run tomorrow including that our battery pack
is less than � charged and our charger is dead (Note to self: When
installing a one way connecting Anderson plug make sure the one way is the
right way).
But since we are here, we decide to see if we can get the car through tech
inspection. The Sports Car Club of America is happy to have electric cars
race at their club races as long as the region's Executive approves and the
car passes the applicable standard safety rules. We had gotten the approval
of the Florida Regional Executive before we started the project and had
emailed the Florida region Scrutineer that we would be at this race.
The Tech inspector has not gotten the email and is a little surprised to
find himself faced with scrutinizing an electric racecar. He checks with
SCCA National. When they raise no objection, he is willing. A racecar is a
racecar. Skip the section about the fuel cell (racing gas tank, not the
other type). Don't need an oil catch tank. Rules for the exhaust pipe-not
applicable.
He checks the roll cage. The scatter shield over the driveline. The race
seat and 6 point seat belts. He also asks some relevant questions like how
the batteries are secured and whether the pack is isolated. Then he gives us
a logbook and approves the car. We are cleared to race. The Korean TV crew
pull him away for an interview.
It will be a short race for us if we don't get the batteries charged, but
help is on the way. I have been keeping fellow EV list member and local EAA
(www.floridaeaa.org) organizer Shawn Waggoner up to date on our efforts.
When I told him that there was no way we were running because we had killed
our PFC50, he thought he might have a solution. A friend of his, Matt
Graham, had just got a brand new PFC20. Maybe we could use it. He would
check.
Sure enough, Shawn and Matt turn up at the track. They whipped out their
Fluke meters (they had way-cooler Multi-meters than ours), plugged in the
PFC20 and soon have our pack charging. We experiment a little and managed to
get a steady 5 amps from the trackside outlet.
Charging is going to take a while but in a great display of EV fellowship,
they leave the charger in our care despite just meeting us for the first
time and knowing we blew up our last charger! Thank you Matt and Shawn!
We have used 14.2 kw-hrs from a 22.8 kw-hr pack. In theory, the pack is 38%
full. This does not take into account any psuedo Puerkets effect, but let's
call it 26 amp-hrs left.
The charger computer control is not set up, so we can't leave the charger on
overnight. We charge for an hour and a half before the track closes and
another two hours before qualifying in the morning. Best case, we have 43.5
amp-hrs in the battery or about 62%.
Another way of checking state of charge. Resting pack voltage is 333 volts
or about 3.784 volts per cell. If 3.0 volts is empty and 4.2 volts is full:
784/1.2 = 65%. The two methods of guesstimation come pretty close to
agreeing.
I drive the car to pit lane and wait for the start of the SPU (Super
Production Under 2 liter) qualifying session. The crew checks tire pressures
and switches on the data recording. No need to warm up the motor. The track
goes green and out I go.
There are a number of cars ahead of me. They swerve back and forth warming
up their tires. I have no trouble keeping up with them. In the first corner,
the cars ahead of me seem awfully tentative. The Imp corners well and even
going easy on the throttle, I am up against the bumper of the car ahead of
me.
I ease off and accelerate again. Hard brake and another corner. Enough warm
up. My tires are sticking already. Let's go!
I come out of turn 4 hard and pass before 5. Hard out of turn 6 and pass
another two cars before the chicane. The road ahead of me is clear.
Through 9 and 10, I am at racing speed, though my line is not clean and I am
conservative on the throttle. Out of the corner, I check my distance to the
car behind me. There is little difference in acceleration. I might have a
little edge.
The speed climbs over 100 MPH but car stops accelerating. Is that all it's
got? I watch behind me and my marker car is rapidly closing.
I brake and turn into turn 2. No need to think about shifting. The throttle
application is amazingly smooth. You know exactly how much torque to expect.
I find it easy to bring the car right to edge. A smooth four-wheel drift
from the apex to the outside berm. The gap behind me reopens.
Brake hard for the 3 and 4 complex. The gap increases. I brake hard for turn
5 making use of the regen pedal and the brake pedal. The car decelerates
nicely. Turn and back on the throttle. A little lift and full throttle out
of turn 6 and. the clunk of the contactors dropping out.
I check my mirrors and move off the racing line. Shift lever to neutral.
Front and rear motor switches to 'off'. Front motor to 'on' and press the
start button. Rear motor to 'on' and press start button.
I accelerate hard again and the contactors drop out again. I pull off.
Reset. Then wait for a long break in traffic and gently drive to the pits.
In the paddock, we put the car on charge. The only data system we have up on
the car is the 'slow trace' mode that the Siemans inverter allows. We have
it set to record throttle position, regen throttle position, amps, voltage,
torque, and RPM. Despite some odd timing data, looking at this information
is extremely helpful.
Our maximum amps were around 630 amps which at one point we held for 13.5
seconds. During that time voltage dropped immediately to 276 volts and over
the next 13 seconds to 260 volts. This was the section for turn 4 to turn 5.
The rpm went from 3750 to 4950. Torque started at 286 lbf-ft and dropped off
to 192.
We look at the data from when the contactors drop out. The voltage had hit
the minimum we had specified with Parameter 420 (Vbat_UnderVolt). It is set
to 248 volt. Parameter 421 (Vbat_Min) is set to 250 volts.
In theory, the inverter should cut back on the current out when VBat_Min is
reached. This should keep the voltage above Vbat_UnderVolt. If you hit
Vbat_UnderVolt, the contactors open, shutting off power, to protect the
battery.
In reality, it is necessary to set the two parameters further apart than 2
volts, or the battery pack hits Vbat_UnderVolt before the inverter can react
to Vbat_Min.
We decide to set Vbat_Min to 264 volts (3 volts per cell). That gives us a
16 volt cushion. If the voltage goes too low, we will lose some power, but
not shut down.
We take a look at what had happened on the main straight. The current was
around 600 amps and the torque around 243 lbf-ft until we hit 5600 rpm. Then
the torque drops to 0 and the current to around 17 amps. The RPM holds at
5500 rpm.
"Is there a rev limiter?" our crew chief asks.
We check the software (and check with Victor of Metricmind.com ). There are
4 rev limiter parameters (380-383). A 'soft' rev limiter and a 'hard' rev
limiter for clockwise rotation. A 'soft' rev limiter and a 'hard' rev
limiter for counter clockwise rotation. The 'hard' limit is set for 5600
rpm. We change this to 11,000 rpm. The motor is rated to 12,000.
Next we look at regen currents. Our braking set up uses two pedals. The
brake pedal is in the normal position. The far left pedal, traditionally the
clutch, is the regen pedal. It uses a stock hydraulic master cylinder with
an electronic pressure sensor taking the place of a potentiometer.
The regen current was set to 140. The trace from turn 5 shows 140 amps.
Voltage climbs from 269 under 175 amps out to 300 volts with 150 amps in. 65
lbf-ft of torque retardation.
We consult with Dr. Kim, Vice President of Kokam Batteries. 2C (140 amps) is
the max they want us to charge the battery with. He does not think that 4C
(280 amps) for very short bursts will do any harm but no higher until we
build more experience with the batteries. We reset parameters 431 and 433 to
140 amps on both motors (240 amps max total).
The whole track session used 4.208 kw-hrs. Total travel was 2 laps or 4.5
miles. I estimate that we spent almost a lap at speed. That means 2.25 miles
at around .500 kw-hrs per mile or 1.125 kw-hrs and 3.083 kw-hrs used by 1
hot lap. This means 1.37 kw-hr per mile. This is a much larger than we
expected.
We decide not to run the short race this afternoon. We need to charge as
much as possible and then do a few clean laps to get a better understanding
of the car.
The pack charges until evening. We look forward to tomorrow.
To be continued...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
Err. telepathy?
I think I just managed to get confused, despite you putting "See the
New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site" at the end of every message -
somehow I read it as new Mini :)
So I've looked at your site now - nice project, good luck with it!
And Vancouver island, great place.
Regards
Evan
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 07:04:54 -0700, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Evan - how did you know about my other project?
> http://www3.telus.net/DonsMiniSite/ ???
>
>
> Anyway. I think the real question is - why on earth does a *mini* need
> power steering in the first place?! :)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't see the article on their web site yet,
http://www.powerelectronics.com/
In the September issue of power electronics they have
an active cell balancing system for ultracapacitors.
Rod
P.S. I didn't see this application info on Maxwell's
web site either.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
> Where the rubber meets the road is where reality is....
Funny, just how true this is. 'Where the Rubber Meets the Road' is in reality, the
title
of the '98 documentary video featuring among others, yours truly. There's great
footage of
Blue Meanie, and there's also the famous one-day build of the electric '68 Datsun
minitruck that went on to become 'Baby Blue' (now owned by friend John Tuss), where
they
captured everything from pulling the dirty oily ICE out, to lowering-in the ADC 9 inch
electric motor, to the installation of the Optima batteries, to the late night test
drive
as an electric truck while former GM CEO Robert Stemple does a voice over.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
The title of this post irritates me. The first EV sports car has already come and gone,
long before this new entry was even conceived...it was called the EV1. The EV1 was
here 10
years ahead of the Fetish, and was a sleek two seater electric sports car within
financial
grasp of many. Road & Track tested it and got 0-60 in 7.6 seconds, and with NiMH
batteries, I got a real world 145 miles per charge range when renting one while
traveling
in California.
John Westlund wrote:
> The TZero is high 11s/ low 12s
John, where are you getting these stats? Take it from me, getting a street legal
electric
car into the 12's is no small task. Getting a production based, all steel car with real
windows, real bumpers, real doors, and a real roof, to run in the 12's let alone 11's,
is
very hard to do.
Many of us work very hard to design, build, and at sanctioned NHRA 1/4 mile drag
strips and under NEDRA regulations race our electric drag cars. We come away with
bonafide time
slips that show everything and support our performance claims. White Zombie's world
record
12.991 @ 101.18 mph time slip is posted at the Zombie's page in the EV Photo Album for
all
to see and inspect.
We've invited AC Propulsion to come to NEDRA drag race EVents, but they've never
attended.
I have no doubt that the lithium powered tZero could crack the high 12's, as it ran a
13.2
second 1/4 mile ET when it was heavier and powered by 28 lead acid Optimas. High 11s/
low
12s? Show me the time slips!
I've seen the tZero videos, most recently, the one with funky earth muffin music
playing
(no drum track, no bass content, no 'impact'...hardly the kind to support aggressive,
tire-shredding 'real' drag racing) where they race the tZero against a Porsche 911 in
the
rain on some airport tarmac. There were no timing lights, no speed traps, and it was
not
even close to being NHRA approved. Instead, they have some dude with an umbrella to
act as a
Christmas tree.
The other 'drag races' AC Propulsion uses in their PR, shows their car
racing against a Corvette, a Porsche 911, and Ferrari F355...all in the 1/8th mile, not
the more stringent 1/4 mile, where real drag cars go to see what they can do. There's a
reason for this, of course. AC Propulsion knows that in the full 1/4 mile drag,
these cars would blow past the tZero, who's performance is capped off with a self
imposed,
rev limited restricted top speed. Sure, they could change gear ratios to get the top
speed
up, but doing that would then slow down it's sensational 0-60 time, and, it would
still lose
to these same cars in the 1/4 mile drag. The tZero would get its fake doors absolutley
blown
off by all three of these cars.
AC Propulsion's 'drag race' claims (1/8th mile instead of tougher 1/4 mile) are
reminiscent of Solectria's old tricks, when trying to mask their s-l-o-w EV's 0-60
times
they instead bragged about 0-50 in 10 seconds. They only ceased that nonsense when I
posted a challenge to their claims and exposed the fact that a car that does 0-50 in 10
seconds, takes an agonizing 17 seconds or so to crawl up to 60 mph. I'm certainly not
saying tZero isn't quick and fast, but quoting race stats that claim the tZero
'out-drag
races' expensive sports cars minus any 60 ft. times, minus any track registered 1/8th
mile
times and speeds, and most important...minus any 1/4 mile ET and speed, is a bit
misleading.
> That TZero is an exceptional machine.
Yes, in some ways it is, but in other ways...hardly. It's absolutely terrific that AC
Propulsion has forged ahead with power train and battery pack innovations, especially
the
recent lap top battery pack and phenomenal distance per charge achievements. The car
has a
killer 0-60, and it has stunning performance in most areas. However, the hop-over fake
doors, the home-made build quality, and toy-like body structure (it's a kit car) are
BIG
negatives.
I'd like to see a real car with their technology poured into it. A small
production car made like other cars on the road, a car that passes all standards other
cars must pass, a car with functioning doors and all the other expected features...then
tout what 'this' car can do. For me, this would be far more impressive
than what the current 'car' does. Imagine how the general public would respond when
seeing
a comparison of say a Toyota Corolla XRS, a spunky boy racer 170 hp sedan with 0-60 in
7.1
seconds and a 1/4 mile ET of 15.8, to the 230 hp electric Corolla EV with 0-60 in the
low
5 second range, a 1/4 mile ET in the mid 13's, and a
never-have-to-go-to-the-gas-station
range of 200-230 miles! Do you have any idea how many eyebrows this would raise?
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Umm so how do you get the motor current to be Negative %50. You are assuming
a permag motor aren't you??
And how do you get the motor to generate 1/2 it's negative current where the
battery voltage is 2x the Back EMF voltage value?
The over running clutch is the Boogie man of a Regen drive system. Since
permag motors have a intringsic Drag because of hysterisis losses in the
Steel. So it takes force to spin a Permag, even when it is open circuited. A
really stiff permag(BLDC or Brushed) has LOTS Of losses. Stiff in regen is
also very efficient in drive mode or regen mode(negative or positive
torque).
So easy regen is at the price of good coasting.
The freewheel clutch that can be open for coasting and closed for regening
is not a cheap or simple item. Most either deal with the losses, or have a
simple overrunning bearing clutch setup. Rugged and cheap.
With BLDC you can commutate even though you are NOT driving the phases.
This seams to seriously reduce drag, but timing is crititcal to a nice
coast. Doing it right requires a few watts of power. So it's not a FREE
freewheel.
If sombody made a affordable cable drive clutch freewheel setup that also
could take 10 to 30 ftlbs of torque and fit in the palm or your hand.....
I have dealt with this on the Minibike from hell, and Well I don't use a
clutch, and live with the drag, but my phase state machine stays synced up
even when I am not driving the phases. Braking is a Non synchronized
function. Dropping into and out of this function took some code effort....
The MBH has no friction brakes..... As long as the DSP stays alive you have
all the braking efforts you need.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Quin Pendragon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
> Sounds to me like you want a controller based on current, not voltage.
>
> I'm in the throes of designing one at the moment (damn you, power
> electronics, damn you!) and, as far as I can see, it'll give you a
> controller with accelerator and regen. brakes that behave very
> similarly to a normal car.
>
> Say you're at half throttle, the controller will vary the voltage
> across the motor via PWM to ensure that the motor sees exactly half
> the configured maximum current, and so is making 50% of maximum
> torque. At zero throttle, the controller regulates the voltage across
> the motor to be exactly equal to the back-EMF, so there is no current
> drawn and hence no regenerative braking drag. When the brakes are
> applied 50%, the controller regulates the motor current to -50% of the
> current limit and you get 50% braking.
>
> Did that make sense? I've never heard of a motor control scheme like
> this - anyone have experience with such, or any reasons why it
> wouldn't work? It works in my head, but then so do plenty of things
> that don't in real life... :P
>
> Cheers,
> Quin
>
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:30:56 -0500, Andre Blanchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> > I must have missed the locking part the first time.
> > I do not think I have ever seen anything like that that could be engaged
and
> > disengaged while in motion. Most of the applications I have seen that
need
> > to freewheel or be locked up just use a regular clutch.
> >
> > Essentially what you are asking for is a regular clutch in parallel with
the
> > overrunning clutch.
> > So could you not just use a regular clutch with the control system set
to
> > only engage it when the operator wants to accelerate or decelerate?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Grant Young
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 12:40 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
> >
> > > Andre,
> > >
> > > We're looking for one that has on-demand lockout so
> > > that normally the motor can drive the wheel but the
> > > clutch/freewheel allows the wheel to spin faster than
> > > the motor. But for regen we need to lock the motor to
> > > the wheel.
> > >
> > > Does that make any sense? If not, please let me know
> > > so I can clarify further.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > grant-
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: Woodburn 2004
>
> Does this _really_ belong on the open list (EVDL) Rich?
>
> IMHO, some of it is inappropriate for public consumption.
>
> Opinions are like a$$holes, we all have one.
>
> If you want to fight with Rod, please do it in private.
>
> Roy
Roy Wake up and smell the fun, Lots like to see the show... Rod and I are
NOT fighting... just discussing some topics. If were really made we wouldn't
be talking to each other, in private or public.
I did use the above languge... you might want to refrain from using it also
. And if you want to scold me do it off line.
I think half the list would love to place bets on Rod and my ideas.
Stay loose Roy....And so will Rod and I.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 08:03:36 -0700 (PDT), Rod Hower
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> P.S. I didn't see this application info on Maxwell's
> web site either.
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/support/app_notes/cell_balancing.html
Important is the sentence:
For high duty cycle applications, Maxwell Technologies recommends active
balancing.
Passive cellbalancing is only low duty usage where there is enough time
for equalizing.
On page 15 of
http://www.epcos.com/web/publikationen/pdf/epc690037600.pdf you find a a
schematic for active cell balancing. It is pretty equal to Victors
voltage clamper.
In
http://www.nesscap.com/prod/Articles/JPS_Vol114_2003_pp366-373_NESSCAP.PDF
you find more information about Ultracaps in vehicle applications.
So the effort for balancing UltraCaps is nearly twice as high as with
lithium cells. This drives the costs considerably up.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yer thinking too hard Bill.
We have measured the Gs on the back drive of Gp with 1000 amp on each
motor and 1000 across both motors inseries mode.
They both make exactly 1/2 the torque that they do in series. So.. The back
motors are very closely timed for the same output power.
If can be tricky.. but in our case it is NOT, and we have measured it,
and have the data.
In parallel mode, they take what they will, and Well we don't have data in
that mode. Rod seams to think they pull rather hard in Turbo mode.
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, September 26, 2004 8:56 PM
Subject: Re: "Gone Postal" Woodburn update
> At 08:46 PM 9/26/2004, you wrote:
> > >Well, back to the track, right around the eighth mile I shift into
fifth
> > >gear and also right about then the built in series/parallel function of
> > >the Zilla's "Hairball" kicks in and I have to hold on as the electric
> > >nitrous slams be back in the seat.
> >
> > Hmmm. If you're running what amounts to two separate drivetrains, how
do
> >you keep the wheel rpms synchronized between the front and rear drives?
>
> Unlike your typical 4X4, the two drives in Going Postal are not
> linked together in any way, aside from the throttle linkage. There are
> actually three motors working together.
>
> There is absolutely no problem getting series-wound DC motors to
> run in tandem. (My bike has two motors as does Otmar's car, as does Rich
> Brown's car........) Unlike GP, these EVs have just two motors wired in
> parallel at the starts and then switched to series as the speed goes up a
bit.
>
> When wired in series, both motors have equal torque and will
> divide the voltage proportional to their rpm. The faster motor will drop
> more voltage and output more HP. If they have the same RPM, they will each
> put out the same HP.
>
> When they are wired in parallel, it gets a bit more tricky. The
> math is not so simple, but the end result is not too hard to understand.
> Both motors see the same voltage. The slower motor hogs the current and
> puts out more HP. Unlike the series case, however, the HP ratio is not
> proportional to the rpm ratio, but is roughly proportional to the square
of
> the rpm ratio.
>
> Wire them in parallel, and you get a very effective
> "posi-traction" effect.
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:00 AM
Subject: Re: ProEV's Imp on track!
>
> It sounds like a beauty but where do you plug it in?
>
> Cliff
>
> www.ProEV.com
>
Into the secondary of the 37.5 Kw isolation transformer in the bottom of the
PFC150 "Blue Coffin". This is wired through a 200 amp breaker directly to
the phase leads that enter my 200 amp 208 3 phase feeds at my new Production
Shop Site.
It's a prototype for a Fleet Rapid charger. So... you have to bolt the
leads to the Buss rails inside your breaker box.
The Federal Pacific transformer, also allows us to utilize any Grid voltage
from 525 down to 208, and we stay isolated also. This is Big, No BS stuff.
The first cut is a tripple PFC50 rack. The follow on may have 4 Pfc75s tuned
up to 18 Kw.
Prices have not been set. PFC75s need to be fully Dynoed out and thermal
runs and risks factors need to be documented and data needs to be collected.
So...much work to do.
Really good to hear that you didn't cook the 50 again. Joe's precharge
lights, are overkill ... but.....We will have a precharge lock out circuit
on the output side of the PFC150. Just so a polarity reversal event lights
up things and not my main output diode!!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cliff!!
This is excellent!!! My kind of Racing post... nice data, nice
Car... Get yer PFC50 Fed with 240 volts.... and a stout 50 amp feed... and
your life will get better.
Or Buy a PFC150 and dump charge off the grid.
Damn I love road racing....I miss it!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 7:15 AM
Subject: ProEV's Imp on track! (part 2) (long)
> We decide not to run the short race this afternoon. We need to charge as
> much as possible and then do a few clean laps to get a better
understanding
> of the car.
>
> The pack charges until evening. We look forward to tomorrow.
>
> To be continued...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually I suspect that we are at least 100 years beyond the first electric
sports car. Many early speed records were held by electric cars, it took a
while for ICE cars to get up to speed.
Kind of depends on your definition of sports car, but I would bet that back
then they were considered sporty.
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 10:47 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The first EV sports car
> Hello to All,
>
> The title of this post irritates me. The first EV sports car has already
> come and gone,
> long before this new entry was even conceived...it was called the EV1. The
> EV1 was here 10
> years ahead of the Fetish, and was a sleek two seater electric sports car
> within financial
> grasp of many. Road & Track tested it and got 0-60 in 7.6 seconds, and
> with NiMH
> batteries, I got a real world 145 miles per charge range when renting one
> while traveling
> in California.
--- End Message ---
