EV Digest 3829
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: DO NOT BURN ULTRACAPs !!!!!!!!
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: The first EV sports car
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: DO NOT BURN ULTRACAPs !!!!!!!!
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The first EV sports car
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: "Gone Postal" update
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....Maxwell?
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Ultracap cell balancing
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Ultracap cell balancing
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Broken seal on end of Curtis????
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Mellow Yellow lives on... but which batteries?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Orbital "real life" A-hrs?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EDTA Conference Report
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Fw: EDTA Recognizes the State of Florida as "E-Visionary"
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: ProEV's Imp on track! (part 2) (long)
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Non-Polarized ultracaps
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If this is a confirmed failure mode [could we have a link to a MSDS or
something?], it would seem to suggest venting to the outside and no possible
air intermix with cabin is a basic safety requirement for ultracaps.
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "mark ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:32 PM
Subject: DO NOT BURN ULTRACAPs !!!!!!!!
> I repeat DO NOT play around with burning ULTRACAPS. The acetonitrile
electrolyte IS!combustible in oxygen an under the right conditions can
release a type of CYANIDE gas. The caps are designed to handle normal
use-as batteries are-but if you are foolish to misuse them-for an expriment
or other wise-well I guess thats why they call it survival of the smartest.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>John, where are you getting these stats? Take it >from me,
getting a street legal
>electric
>car into the 12's is no small task. Getting a >production
based, all steel car
>with real
>windows, real bumpers, real doors, and a real roof, >to run
in the 12's let alone
>11's, is
>very hard to do.
I was quoting Chris Dixon's article in the NY Times.
"What will a Tzero buyer get?
A car that, from zero to 100 and through the quarter mile,
will run with, or
beat, the $281,000 Lamborghini Murci�lago, the $224,000
Ferrari 575M
Maranello or the $440,000 Porsche Carrera GT."
http://travel2.nytimes.com/mem/travel/article-page.html?res=9B01E3DC123AF93AA2575AC0A9659C8B63
The article may be wrong, but if it is viewed as a correct
source at first glance, then given what 575Ms, Murceilagos,
and Carrera GTs pull, you could say it is somewhere in the
high 11s, low 12s. I have always wondered where Chris Dixon
got that stat from, but maybe I made an error in assuming it
to be correct. The Murceilago pulls high 11s alone. If the
TZero can run with as the article claims and if the article
is correct, I'd assume at slowest the TZero would perform
well into the 12s.
Just my guess.
I have absolutely no doubts about the difficulty of getting
an EV to even go below the 14s. I certainly forsee
difficulty with my future project of even getting below the
15s if I go everything right.
I certainly have not found any time slips of the TZero, and
I'm with you there. I'd like to see that NY Times writer
present them. ;)
>I'd like to see a real car with their technology >poured
into it. A small
>production car made like other cars on the road, a >car
that passes all standards
>other
>cars must pass, a car with functioning doors and all >the
other expected
>features...then
>tout what 'this' car can do. For me, this would be >far
more impressive
>than what the current 'car' does. Imagine how the >general
public would respond
>when seeing
>a comparison of say a Toyota Corolla XRS, a spunky >boy
racer 170 hp sedan with
>0-60 in 7.1
>seconds and a 1/4 mile ET of 15.8, to the 230 hp >electric
Corolla EV with 0-60
>in the low
>5 second range, a 1/4 mile ET in the mid 13's, and a
>never-have-to-go-to-the-gas-station
>range of 200-230 miles! Do you have any idea how >many
eyebrows this would raise?
I completely agree with you on the point of using an actual
car, not because that sort of car appeals to me(I'm more of
a fan of tiny impractical toys myself), but for the very
reason you stated. Getting a consumer interested in EVs by
showing them as practical. Imagine, say, a modernized
version of a Plymouth Fury, only fully electric, much more
aero and lighter than the original, similar seating room,
nice, smooth ride, and at least 200 horsepower on tap.
Perhaps a nice real(even in bad weather) range of 180-220
miles. Seats 6, has air conditioning, heating, airbags in
all the desired places, television set with DVD player, ect.
THAT would really get people attracted to EVs, along with
throwing them in with a sort of musclecar stigma, especially
if it could accelerate from 0-60 faster than the classic
hemi musclecars.
As much as we disagree(maybe?) on the validity of 'scare
stories' some environmentalists have used(wherin I see many
of the issues they bring up are legitamate), I believe your
approach is the most valid at getting EVs accepted into the
main stream. People will have to want them, not because they
are told they need to adopt them, but because they actually
see them as desirable, fun, and see certain pluses over
gasoline cars. Forcing them on people won't work, especially
when people don't know much about them. I heavily appreciate
what you have done for EVs, and your Blue Meanie does a
great demonstration of the things the non-EV educated auto
owner wishes to see any car have. I cannot wait for you to
get a lithium pack in that thing. The sound system really
does the trick at getting attention and acceptance, I think!
Your Crolla idea would have all the ricers, that specific
group of who I wish to eventually embarass with an electric
Triumph ;-), in an uproar, if not an outright state of
shock. I'd certainly be impressed at such a car as you have
in mind. Just imagine giving people rides in such a car as
that EV Corolla you have in mind. :-)
I think the technology is there, or at least on the verge of
being there, for a viable replacement to the IC engine with
few compromises. The hurdles to overcome are looking more
and more like ones of either money(as in start up capital
for pilot production) or in general production volume. Lets
take the Jester EV, for instance. www.evuk.co.uk did a few
articles on this car, and the owner claims he could get this
150+ mile range EV to sell at a profit with about a $30,000
price tag, in production volumes of < 50 a year. It may not
at all be practical, and again, is a kit car of the tackiest
variety with little on looks and utility, but just seeing
that claim says something about how far this technology has
progressed and hints at its viability (
http://web.archive.org/web/20040213225920/http://www.evuk.co.uk/news/index.html
). There is also a study on the merits of BEVs vs. Fuel
Cells, and using stats from at least 5 years ago, it came to
the conclusion that a drivetrain and battery system Honda
Civic-like EV with 130 or so horsepower and a 300 mile range
was possible in mass production for about $20k (
http://www.evuk.co.uk/EAVES_BEV_VS_FCV 040703.pdf ). Both
the claim of Greener Energy about the Jester and this study
should be taken with a grain of salt, but I think they say
something of merit, no matter how small, about the state of
this technology.
If only folks like you had a bunch of money to burn and if
only a managemnt system for Li ions were mass produced, I am
certain we may be seeing some conversions on the road that
do most everything an IC car does, perhaps then some. I'm
eagerly awaiting certain folks on this list to convert their
Honda Insights to pure EVs and try lithium packs in them
with full functioning BMS systems for blistering
acceleration and ~200 miles range.
I hope you certainly comment on this. I love discussing and
thinking about examples and implications of this technology.
I may be wrong on certain things about it, but it can't hurt
to learn. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is the link to a MSDS page on this substance:
http://www.tedpella.com/msds_html/18612msd.htm
They give dire warnings covering flammability, but do not seem to emphasize
the cyanide release dangers as much.
Definitely not friendly stuff thought. :)
On Wed, Sep 29, 2004 at 11:24:45PM -0700, Jon Sheer Pullen wrote:
> If this is a confirmed failure mode [could we have a link to a MSDS or
> something?], it would seem to suggest venting to the outside and no possible
> air intermix with cabin is a basic safety requirement for ultracaps.
>
> S.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mark ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:32 PM
> Subject: DO NOT BURN ULTRACAPs !!!!!!!!
>
>
> > I repeat DO NOT play around with burning ULTRACAPS. The acetonitrile
> electrolyte IS!combustible in oxygen an under the right conditions can
> release a type of CYANIDE gas. The caps are designed to handle normal
> use-as batteries are-but if you are foolish to misuse them-for an expriment
> or other wise-well I guess thats why they call it survival of the smartest.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gah. I messed that link to said study up. Sorry about that.
http://www.evuk.co.uk/EAVES_BEV_VS_FCV 040703.pdf
Check page 7. Certainly that battery cost could be cut by
1/3, given that 200 miles range is adequate enough to give
IC cars a run for their money. :-)
I don't know how reliable this study is, as they never
specified what that battery pack included and how(I'd have
to check their source). If that didn't include a BMS for
example, then cost might be significantly higher.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
I wasn't aware that your postal van was originally electric. What was the
original driveline and battery pack like? Something that could be recycled
into another vehicle? David Chapman.
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--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:19:18 -0400, "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This voltage clamper. Would it act like a zener diode?If so where could
> I find an example of such a circuit?
Victor provided such a circuit:
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/clamper.jpg
You can trim the voltage. If you would like to use such a circuit to
regular lead acid batteries you can even add temperatur compensation by
adding a PTC KTY81-110.
Emil
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--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 17:01:24 -0700 (PDT), mark ward
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gota go home-more tommorrow if you wish.
Yes - please!
Thanks,
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:10:56 +0100, Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> That's interesting. I'm not sure I agree that the effort for
> balancing is twice as high, I use pretty much the same approach as
> this for Li-Ion.
Yes, but you have only a maximum voltage of 2.5 V available and need
therefor nearly twice the number of capacitors and correspondingly
balancing modules.
If you use two UltraCaps per lithium cell you may go without active
balancing. The ultracapacitors are then charged only to about 2 V and
there is enough headroom and passive balancing would be ok. This is what
Victor effectively says.
> But, I hate to think what would happen if a couple of the caps went
> short-circuit. Would the rest follow, christmas-tree bulb style? Or
> hand-grenade style? :?
This would be a good question addressed to the manufacturer. ;-)
Emil
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--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 10:13:02 +0200, Emil Naepflein
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:10:56 +0100, Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > That's interesting. I'm not sure I agree that the effort for
> > balancing is twice as high, I use pretty much the same approach as
> > this for Li-Ion.
>
> Yes, but you have only a maximum voltage of 2.5 V available and need
> therefor nearly twice the number of capacitors and correspondingly
> balancing modules.
Duh, got it!
Thanks for the links also.
Regards
Evan
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--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 13:18:03 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is common to open a Curtis controller for repair, and find
> significant amounts of water inside. The scenario goes like this: The
> case develops a crack. As the controller gets hot and later cools, the
> air inside expands and contracts. So the case "inhales" and "exhales"
> outside air through the cracks. The air pulled in contains water. This
> water condenses inside, and causes shorts and corrosion.
I experienced this with my Curtis 7401-1221B. The first time I opened
it it was "as new" and the seal appeared intact. But there was water
in there, and worse, corrosion on the control PCB.
After several attempts at finding an intermittant fault (which I think
had been caused by the moisture), I realised that I wasn't able to
make it watertight either, so in the end I made a modification - in
the space between the bus bars at the top, I drilled a hole through
the potting compound and stuck a short length of plastic tube through.
On the inside, I fastened a small air baloon to the end of the tube.
Then I sealed up the controller as usual with lots of RTV sealant. As
far as I can tell this works in removing the pressure differential and
has successfully kept the water out for 2 or 3 years since.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
During drive and heavy regens the voltages are not equal
but it is not relevant - faster discharging caps also
charge faster coming to the same voltage anyway.
And, again, why bother? You don't equalize good batteries while
driving, do you? (boosting a crippled weak one one is different
issue).
I would like to think that if you took full advantage of regen the caps
would need to be balanced.
Mike G.
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--- Begin Message ---
Decisions indeed.. I'm back to the drawing board to decide over 2
wheels or 3 for my next vehicle!
In your situation, if you're wanting to make the mini work properly as
a daily commuter, I'd be very tempted by the new lead option.
Especially as you've already put the work in with proper insulation,
heating and balancing etc.
Hybrid options have ocurred to me as well, and apart from the
technical complexities and extra mental effort involved with looking
after two packs instead of one, it's just not a very elegant solution
- IMHO.
Good luck :)
Evan.
> Anyway, the Thundersky UK bulk-buy deadline is approaching,
> and I have to make a choice:
>
> Do I :
>
> 1. Spend all my money, and get a 120v 100Ah pack
> of lithiums, connected in parallel with the best 10
> of my AGMs, as has been discussed recently? This would
> chop around 1/3 off my pack weight, and give me maybe
> 80 or 90 Ah of useable capacity. I'd have to scrape together
> enough to buy the PFC30 that I've been talking to Rich Rudman
> about, to feed the lithiums & AGMs.
>
> 2. Buy 20 Exide Orbitals, to have a nice brand new PbA pack.
> Also on the cards would be the PFC30, and either a proper
> gearbox to help out my motor, or an ADC 9 incher so I can
> have more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now that folks have been using the Excide 34xd's for a little while,
what is the real-life capacity looking like?
The spec sheet says 50 A-hrs, so 80% DOD would be 40 A-hrs. Is this
number realistic?
PS My big talk a while ago of a new truck hasn't happened, but I still
lurk and the old truck keeps going, except the flooded's are at the end
of their life. So plan for now is to try some AGMs and a Zilla 1K for a
shorter but more fun range.
--
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message ---
EDTA Conference & Exposition Report
9/28/04 by Mark E. Hanson Copyright 2004
Executive Summary:
Overall there were incremental improvements in batteries, super caps and drive train
efficiencies, which have been fairly consistent with this industry. Lithium batteries,
capacitors and power electronic components saw cost reductions realized from spring
boarding off of other markets. That will be the long-term success of the industry to
alleviate the chicken and egg syndrome. By using high volume laptop computers like
Electrovaya has done for Lithium batteries or "D" battery enclosures as Maxwell has
done for Ultra caps, results in cost reduction due to volume sales. The EV industry
has had low volume sales and profit margins.
The love fest the government and the auto industry has recently had with hydrogen
based fuel cells has been tempered by the realization that with hydrogen as an energy
carrier, the conversion electrolysis process from renewable energy (the final goal),
solar-wind or electricity is 50% whereas transmission lines exhibit 8% losses for
BEV's. This was brought out in a University of Washington study this year pointing out
"laws of physics" reality assessment of the hydrogen fuel cell. Presently Air
Products (main supplier of hydrogen) etc. extracts H2 from natural gas with a 30% loss
and there are already CNG vehicles available with similar overall well-to-wheels 20%
efficiency. H2 must be compressed to 10k PSI to have adequate >150mile range which
reduces efficiency further. Present cost of H2 has been 2X of gas per gallon
equivalent at $4.00 for hydrogen and the PEM fuel cell vehicles are orders of
magnitude more expensive than presently available clean CNG alt-fuel vehicles, EV's
and hybrids. Thus there will be more a mix of technologies as time moves on, with
battery EV's, hybrids, CNG and some expensive fuel cell vehicles, not a total shift to
hydrogen that has been reported in the media recently.
It was noted that the political winds directly affect this industry with the energy
bill stalled in congress. Removal of California's CARB EV requirements by the auto
industry and federal government has resulted in the crushing of GM EV-1's, Ford's
Think EV's and RAV4's. This conference has been the smallest in recent years due to
the rollback of these vehicles and clean air requirements. It was easier therefore to
spend more time with individual manufacturers.
Important Key points noted by the EDTA are that transportation accounts for 66% of all
oil consumed in the US. Over 50% of U.S. oil is imported from OPEC producers and the
U.S. spends $200,000 on foreign oil every minute.
The conference was held at the Gaylord Resort in Orlando, Florida September 21-23,
2004. I picked some of the highlights in this three-day conference that showed growth
over the previous year.
Technical Improvements:
Drives:
Edward Moore with ENOVA, a California based drive systems company, developed a new
series of hybrid drive systems for tractor-trailers. The drive motor & control is for
a 60kW diesel-electric system and is claimed to reduce fuel consumption by 60% in
large trucks. Peak power drive is up to 240kW on acceleration.
Richard Kasper with GEM NEV's a subsidiary of Daimler-Chrysler demo'd the E2 two
passenger and E4 four passenger 25mph vehicles. Improvements for this year included
double A arm front suspension, digital drive display, battery indicator and an
improved DC converter. They are tested at Arizona proving grounds and have sold 28k to
date. I asked him if since they were under Chrysler if that was the reason they didn't
want to produce a higher speed competitive EV. He agreed and said that Chrysler kept
GEM to meet California mandates but not to compete with their higher speed gas
vehicles.
Ultra caps:
Bob Maher with Maxwell technologies based in San Diego develops ultra caps with a
10-20 year life. The newest addition is the 350F "D" cell at 2.5V. This packaging
reduces cost from 1cent to 1/2cent per Farad this year. The cells are usually
prepackaged in 50V packs. The primary application is to soak up the initial current
surge required on acceleration thus extending range by 25% in a typical lead-acid EV.
I did a quick calculation on my EV that would need 2600F large beer-can ultra caps at
2.5V or 2.7V surge for 70 cells at 155V max charge voltage on a 120V system for $100
each x 70 = $7K to improve range by 25%.
Chargers and Drives:
Deborah Jelen with Aerovironment went over this prolific company's products. The
company was founded by inventor Paul McCready 32 years ago and presently has 300
employees. They have developed the Helios unmanned aircraft for NASA and the original
pterodactyl human powered airplane that is at the Smithsonian. Alan Coconi developed
the Impact or EV-1 there. They have EV vehicle test equipment, the ABC-5 and DLS 250,
AC load simulator, 5kw DC rack mount load testers and fast chargers for forklifts.
Aerovironment also has wind and solar control equipment products.
Reuven Koter with Eldre Corporation showed his company's laminated buss designs fro
EV's and power electronics applications.
Gary Gloceri with WaveCrest showed their electric bikes, motorcycle and electric
roadster car. Only the electric bike military 30mph and commercial 20mph versions are
in production. I asked about the car and motorcycle and found that they are not
intended for production, only demo vehicles to sell their drive systems (similar to
UQM technologies, Inc.) WaveCrest has in-wheel BLDC motors, which are more efficient
than having the extra hardware (transmission-differential) that is conventionally
required and allows for more inside vehicle room as well. They have reduced their
unsprung weight to acceptable levels he claimed. However, the major manufacturers, GM,
Ford, Chrysler, Toyota and Honda have their own engineers and generally develop their
own drive systems, the NIH (not invented here) syndrome.
Customer Roundtable:
NY Power Authority and US Air Force, and Martin County representatives shared their
perspective using electric drive vehicles in their fleets. EDTA president Brian Wynne
moderated the discussions.
Gene Zeltmann with the NY Power Authority was appointed in 02 and believes in a mix of
technologies, fuel cells, electrics, hybrids and photovoltaic generation to relieve
our 60% foreign oil dependence for transportation and (northeast-diesel) heating. He
noted that SUV's consume more oil and 2 million were sold in China last year resulting
in energy shortages. New York governor Pataki issued an executive order for lean fuel
vehicles and clean fuel vehicles. New York has the largest state owned electric
utility. More than 700 fleet state EV and Hybrid vehicles have been put in service
with more than 3 million miles traveled. Ford's Think EV was a highly successful
program used for to & from trains and electric subways. Ford has now abandoned
production. New York has implemented 30 electric Postal Vans giving new meaning to the
concept of "Email". With 325 hybrid busses it has the largest fleet in the country.
Electric school busses are now being implemented. Plug-In hybrids would be the
ultimate solution for better range, reduced petroleum use, and clean operation.
Rick Ruvolo with San Francisco's Clean Air Coalition started it in the 1980's to
purchase clean vehicles and reduce dependence on foreign oil. He noted that we haven't
learned our lesson from the first gulf oil war and are still learning in the second
war in Iraq. San Francisco has 700 clean vehicles and 57% are electric. He worked to
develop the 10% ZEV requirement, which would help our energy security that has been
overturned. There is a high demand for EV's and hybrids but there aren't many or any
products to choose from. There are not enough products available to meet demand and
the commitment to purchase these vehicles is solid he noted. After spending millions
on electric infrastructure, (charging stations), the manufacturers pulled out. "We
could buy 100's of patrol vehicles if they existed", he said. "We want today's
solutions and hydrogen will be a piece of the puzzle but don't want to be distracted
by future promises. He would like a return of battery electrics and more hybrids for
fuel economy and emissions.
Carl Perrazzola with Robins Air Force Base works with advance power, fuel cells,
electric drives, batteries, motors, distributed generation, solar photovoltaic and
hydrogen generation. The air force has 500 dual fuel vehicles in use. Average cost to
get a gallon of JP8 jet fuel into the theater of operations (aka war) is $400 he
noted. By using more efficient vehicles this will have a large impact on costs. He
requested to the audience of design engineers to keep the US Air Force informed of new
technologies. With the upcoming election, we need funding for renewable energy.
Robert Crowder, sheriff with Martin County in Florida spoke about law enforcement
needs in clean vehicles. He started using hybrids in 01' when he noticed that
grayish-orange air is not just limited to California anymore. His vehicle fleet of 300
vehicles is fuel budgeted 12-18 months in advance so increases in fuel costs have a
great effect on operations. He liked the Prius with 23 in service for administration,
civil division, community programs, correction and patrolling but not for high-speed
chase vehicles. Reduced fuel consumption by 60% over previous vehicles used has helped
his budget. "We are stewards of the environment and taxpayer's money", he said. He
also noticed that hybrids are excellent for gated communities and stop & go city
traffic where they are preferred.
Opening Plenary:
At the opening plenary session Brian Wynne head of the EDTA noted that we need
government as a partner and have been riding on the back of a Dinosaur and now need to
ride on the back of an electron. Government needs to provide more incentives to the
marketplace, education and regulation. Virginia and California provide HOV lanes to
hybrids for incentives. The ZEV mandate and CAF� pushed EV's in the 90's. NHTSE is
looking at crash standards for compressed H2 vehicles. Educators provide to the
public training and emergency responders in H2 vehicle accidents.
Bernard Faultrier from Monaco talked about European EV's available such as Citroen's
Berlingo used in France, Italy, Switzerland and Monaco. Saft developed the Ni-Cad for
their EV's. France has an electric Renault and Peugot. Italy has an electric Fiat in
use. It was noted that the removal of the California EV incentive by our government
has put a damper on the EV industry. We need more indirect subsides and tax
incentives. He noted that we are at a turning point with high petrol prices and
public incentives and though that Lithium-Ion polymer was the most long-term promising
battery technology. He pointed out that the Japanese are the technology production
forerunners and will accelerate hybrids & EV's.
Some Key Speakers from the three tracks:
Lee Slezak with DOE's Freedom Car noted that we were (a few years ago) sending $2
billion per week out of the country and now $4 billion to support our 63% foreign oil
usage. He noted that the PNGV 80mpg car initiative was cancelled and funding for the
hydrogen fuel cell was favored (by the present administration).
Alan Bedwell with the State of Florida noted how oil and electric supplies can be
disrupted in hurricanes and how alternatives would be desirable. "Using hydrogen and
alt fueled vehicles will help", he said. These technologies will help with growth and
jobs. These new businesses keep our environment clean, which reduces health costs.
Economic security is at risk with an oil-based economy. There was a run on gas by 3X
in the last several hurricanes. Hybrids can take people twice as far per gallon.
Government tends to promote these vehicles but ignores its' own advice. This state now
requires hybrid vehicles to be purchased for its' fleets to create a market "pull".
Hybrids should be limited to passenger cars and extended to diesel hybrids for
greatest fuel efficiency. Florida was the recipient of the "Evisionary Award".
Air Products' Richard Goodstein spoke about his hydrogen supplier company (largest
company supplier), which supplies 50% of the requirements for hydrogen and NASA's fuel
cells. Air Products is a $6 billion global company that uses natural gas to produce H2
gas with 70% conversion efficiency. Presently H2 is used for oil refineries to make
clean burn gasoline. H2 can also be made from wind or solar. (I noted that 50%
conversion electrolysis efficiency from electricity is why it is not converted in this
manner). Fueling with compressed H2 is easy to do at the pump (with a properly
designed sealed nozzle like CNG). He noted that energy legislation has been staled in
congress and we need tax incentives and vehicles may get down to $500k by 2012. He
said, "Republicans are reluctant to promote energy efficiency". He then put up a
comparison between the two candidates showing how the policies directly affect us.
Under Bush: Hydrogen spending will be increased as noted in the State of the Union
speech. Under Kerry: "Since he is not beholding to oil companies," he said, there
would be more funding for a mix of technologies and tax incentives for EV's and
hybrids. He noted that Wall Street promotes him (fiscal responsibility). (Kerry
promised to increase renewable energy useage by 20% over his term through incentives,
jobs). Some statements then came from the audience. Presently H2 is $4 per gallon
equivalent and can be used where pure EV's can't for long distances. Another noted
that even though 80% of daily driving is <50 miles, the public perception is to
purchase a vehicle that must have 300 miles per charge or H2. Goodstein noted that
natural gas conversion produced Co2 but was a wash compared to direct burning CNG.
Bill Moore with EV World noted that there is no interest or capitol available for
Biogen H2.
Jake Plante with the FAA noted that for airport transports, 85% are still gas or
diesel. Ten percent are electric and five percent are CNG. He thought there is a huge
opportunity for more electrics in this area.
H2 has half the energy density of natural gas and must be compressed to 10k psi to get
300 mile required range. But H2 has 2X the burn efficiency of natural gas in direct
burn. (So I noticed that it's efficiency wells-to-wheels wash either way).
Patrice Dupont with TM4 is making an integrated traction system for sale to OEM's
similar to other suppliers like UQM and WaveCrest. It has a 40kw nominal power, 50 kW
peak. The motor generator and controls can be used in a hybrid car for a motor-wheel
type configuration. The unsprung weight is 21kg, which is good for the Peugeot vehicle
tested.
Tim Fehr with Raser technologies talked about his AC Induction motors called the
Symetron which he claimed >92% compared to the Siemens 90% and the Prius at 90%. It is
a pancake AC induction radial motor. He said his actual method of improving
efficiencies could not be mentioned. (Finer, more expensive machining resulting in a
smaller air gap between the stator and rotor I noted generally increases motor
efficiencies).
Don Francis with Georgia Power noted that "the news of the death of the battery
powered EV may be a bit premature". Chris Washburn with Wavecrest went on to talk
about his company's hub motors/controls for sale. The high performance Ebike factory
in Dulles, VA has 150 employees and was founded by two Russian scientists four years
ago. They want to supply industrial drives/ wheel motors in the 1 RPM-1500RPM range
with an adaptive BLDC PM motor controlled with linear torque over the entire range.
Most will be sold to the transportation market and stealth military vehicles. On the
Ebike the motor control and motor are in the rear hub and the NIMH battery is in the
front stationary hub. The standard M750 bike is 20 mph but the military version can
be tweaked up to 45 mph. Both had a 20-mile range.
Rick Kasper of GEM (Chrysler) talked about his 25 mph NEV and has sold 21K from 01-04.
They now have four products. Operating at 72V with Trojan 30XHP batteries. Or
maintenance free batteries if needed. (I noticed that the maintenance free last about
� as long on the battery manufacturer supplied data). They increased the track width
and have better steering this year I noticed while driving it. They noted that there
are 11000NEV's in California and the average person takes 8 trips a day 3 miles or
less. Rick mentioned that they are a niche market with low volumes and return on
investment was adequate.
Sankar Das Gupta, Electrovaya CEO in Ontario Canada partnered with Microsoft to use
their Lithium-Ion Super Polymer cells in Laptops to leverage volume production in
order to drive the cost down for EV's. He said the typical range in an EV is 150-200
miles with his batteries and cost will come down after volume production in laptop
computers. Electrovaya has fault tolerant cell failure which the additional battery
monitoring electronics bypasses the offending cell. (It would also have to alert the
driver prior to charge or compensate the charger I would think). Life is 100K miles or
7 years he claims. (He said they were low cost but when I asked for some to replace my
14kWh 120V pack he said I couldn't afford it). Hopefully they'll be more cost
effective in the future as commercial use increases. They are at 220wh/kg whereas lead
acid is 50 wh/kg, a huge improvement. He said they have licked the safety issue for
lithium fires. In tablet PC use, they are seeing 9 hours vs. 3 hours of run time. They
have a Cami-Suzuki econo test car, which he said would be in the $50-70k price range.
(A bit high for my level of "economy".)
Rich Schaum with Wavecrest tested their wheel motors at 48V with a 70mph speed showing
that their low voltage wheel motors can operate efficiently at a safe voltage and
deliver substantial power in a Spark Mercedes vehicle. They used Matlab and Simulink
to develop their drive/motor and partnered with Emerson Electric for product
development. Unsprung weight is the biggest challenge with wheel motors and they have
achieved 2kW per KG, which is adequate for vehicle handling.
After comparing these technologies above I checked with Richard Smith of Maxwell
Technologies to compare their ultra caps to battery statistics for combinational
usage. Energy storage in their ultra cap is 1/10th that of lead acid batteries but
10Kw per KG for a huge power storage. The result is they will never replace batteries
but smooth acceleration current so that range and battery life are increased by 25% as
mentioned previously. Besides EV's, wind, consumer wattmeters, digital cameras, fuel
cells and forklifts are good applications for ultra caps. Fuel cells can be decreased
by a factor of four when used with 90F of ultra caps on a GEM test vehicle he claimed.
A nominal 10-second acceleration rate is calculated for optimum performance, which on
my vehicle would be 70 beer-can cells 2.5V (2.7V surge), 2600F, and 155V for a 120V
pack.
At the closing plenary, Bob Stempel, formerly CEO of GM and now Ovonics was the
moderator. Honda (who develops there own components and subassemblies) had Gunnar
Lindstrom, marketing manager talk about their environmentally friendly products. They
have developed EV Jet skies, Accord SULEV and quiet/clean 4-stroke marine outboards.
With the cost of oil being a dinner table discussion and energy security in the
general psyche, Honda's goal is fuel efficiency with the variable cylinder management
system cutting back to 3-cylinders as needed. The Civic GX (NGV) car is presently
available. Honda said they have "PHIL" an H2 home H2 generator that has Natural Gas as
it's input with 70% efficiency H2 as the output. The unit hangs on a garage wall.
Lawrence J. Oswald, Director of GEM noted that innovation must matter and customers
make the choice, so the product must make business sense. Customers rated from 1st to
last, reliability, cost, fuel efficiency and environment last. He noted that with GEM
NEV owners, that they used 15% less fuel and had 2-3 less cold starts resulting in 50%
less regulated emissions. He noted that a plug-in diesel hybrid would be the ultimate
in fuel efficiency. (A 3-cylinder diesel Kubota tractor engine in a British Sprite
will get 80mpg by itself for example similar to the VW Lupo).
Ford has a light hybrid Escape SUV that gets 35mpg using previously licensed Prius
technology and GM had a truck with a contractor DC-AC inverter from 36V battery. Ken
Stewart with GM mentioned that 88% of the world does not have an automobile and that
cars will double by 2020 due to population growth and increased per capita income.
Hybrid buses save 60% over conventional buses. Garbage trucks make the best hybrids he
pointed out due to the stop & go driving. He advocated home electrolysis H2 conversion
units similar to Honda's but at 50% conversion efficiency they may not happen.
Toyota's Ed LaRocque indicated that the Prius sold 100k since 2000 in the US and will
double next year. Volumes will be 440K by 08' and 2M by 2012. It was noted with
exorbitant fuel cell costs that FC buses make the most sense with a 7-year payback
possible when they go into operation. Ford noted that H2 direct combustion would
probably occur to produce a cost effective vehicle. They are not sure if customers
will stay with hybrids or pay a premium for FC vehicles so they will have both
available. Plug-in hybrids with a 30-mile range would be great but it increases costs
for additional batteries and a series hybrid (bigger motors) as opposed to a parallel
hybrid where both motors share for acceleration (but can't be plugged in). Toyota will
maintain its' 100k 7-year warranty. Toyota noted that the government must buy the
vehicles it wants others to buy to get the industry moving along.
Thanks to Jennifer Watts and the EDTA folk's for putting on a great conference.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, I thought this might also be of interest:
Mark
For Immediate Release / Contact: Jennifer Watts / 202-408-0774 / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Florida's Use of Electric Drive Vehicles Garners "E-Visionary" Award from EDTA
September 29, 2004-Washington, DC-The Electric Drive Transportation Association (EDTA)
has recognized the state of Florida as an 'E-Visionary' for its use of electric drive
technologies by state agencies. Under Governor Jeb Bush, the state employs a variety
of electric vehicles in parks, fleets, and communities. Alan Bedwell, Deputy Secretary
of the Florida Department of Environmental Protection, accepted the award on September
22 at the EDTA Conference & Exposition in Orlando, Florida.
Edward B. Cohen, Vice President of Government and Industry Relations for American
Honda and Co-Chairman of EDTA, presented the award to Mr. Bedwell. "Florida's use of
clean, efficient and sustainable modes of transportation, such as battery and hybrid
electric vehicles, makes it an ideal recipient of the EDTA E-Visionary award," says
Cohen. "Florida has demonstrated long-term thought and concern by choosing electric
drive as a means to achieve better air quality, and to ensure that its operations
thrive while leaving a much lighter 'footprint' on the environment."
Governor Bush says, "Florida is leading by example by purchasing hybrid and clean fuel
vehicles. As the largest consumer in the state, government's commitment sets a
precedent for both Florida residents and the nation to invest in clean energy and
protect the environment."
"We are pleased to recognize Florida's commitment to clean, efficient and renewable
transportation," says EDTA President Brian Wynne "The dedication of DEP and other
agencies to purchase these vehicles is making electric drive a reality for
Floridians."
The E-Visionary award was presented during the opening plenary session of the 2004
EDTA Conference & Exposition, which is the largest electric drive event held in the
U.S. The agenda included automotive and industrial vehicle manufacturers, suppliers,
technology developers, academia and government officials. The event also featured an
auto-caliber exposition floor, and a Ride 'n' Drive of current and future battery,
hybrid and fuel cell vehicles.
Past recipients of the EDTA "E-Visionary" award include:
� Honorable Brian Williams, Deputy Mayor of Los Angeles, California, USA
� Honorable Hiroshi Nakada, Mayor of Yokohama, Japan
� Honorable Antonella Spaggiari, Mayor of Reggio Emilia, Italy
� Sheriff Robert L Crowder, Martin County, Florida, USA
##
EDTA is an international association representing the development, production and use
of battery, hybrid and fuel cell electric drive technologies and supporting
infrastructure. EDTA serves as the central source of information on all of the
technical, market and policy issues surrounding the emergence of electric drive, and
serves as the representative of the Americas to the World Electric Vehicle Association
(WEVA). For more information about EDTA, visit www.electricdrive.org or call
202.408.0774.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Uzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: ProEV's Imp on track! (part 2) (long)
This is a write up of our adventures back in July. I have been a little
slow
posting but with our next race (at Homestead-Miami Speedway) coming up
this
weekend, I figured I better get it done.
[...]
wow!! an exciting read! ...is it ok if I spamm this to a private mailing
list
that I spew EV related stuff to?
Sam,
Feel free to pass it on in any non-commercial way.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was told by Maxwell that ultracaps are non-polarized and don't care if
they are reversed.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
> >> The problem is caused because each cell has a different capacitance.
> >> Suppose there is a 20% difference between the cells. You start with
> >> them all fully charged, and apply a high discharge current. The
> >> lowest-capacitance cell will go dead when the rest still have 20%.
> >> Then it goes negative (at high current). This destroys the capacitor.
> >>
> >> The reverse situation happens while charging at high rates. The
> >> lowest-capacitance cell reaches its max voltage limit 20% before the
> >> rest, and fails.
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Lee, you are missing the fact that the caps will never be discharged
> > deeper than 50%-60% DOD, they are in parallel with LiIons.
>
> I understand. I was just giving an example of what would happen if you
> let your capacitors discharge too far. In your case, you limit the depth
> of discharge of the capacitors. This is safe, but as you pointed out
> does not make the best use of their capability.
>
> My point was that a more aggressive balancing scheme could let you
> safely charge and discharge the capacitors more without risk.
>
> > Different leakages will cause unrecoverable imbalance throughout
> > the day, but the leakage current is milliamps, so due to that
> > overall imbalance in one day is totally unmeasurable.
>
> Quite true; however, the leakage current is not constant; it is
> drastically affected by temperature. I don't know what it is for your
> ultracapacitors, but for the Panasonic parts I used, it could easily go
> up 100:1 at high temperatures.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
