EV Digest 3828
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: The first EV sports car
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV Generators
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Deafscooter's 1 St place on Route 66 Rally 9/25
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV Generators
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Broken seal on end of Curtis????
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Need Motor
by "James A. Eckman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV Generators
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Like engineers discussing EVs
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) How to remove wheel nuts with a rear differential (?)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: How to remove wheel nuts with a rear differential (?)
by Eric Penne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Broken seal on end of Curtis????
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Deafscooter's 1 St place on Route 66 Rally 9/25
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: How to remove wheel nuts with a rear differential (?)
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting questions.
It seams at first to be a pretty big initial torque to get it moving, then
it drops once you get enough enertia then rises linearly with increasing
rpm.
I don't have data on this. This is seat of the pants.
The % lost to eddy currents Vs taken away as regen power is dependant
on how much you are taking way. I would guess about %5 of the input force is
lost. Hooking them across some Caps, would let the peak voltages go
someplace, but the power on the peaks of the sine(trapazoid) wave doesn't
contain much energy. volts and not much amps. So charging caps with a permag
is at first going to be very efficient then fall off as the caps charge to
the peaks of the rectified wave. At this time you will also loose all your
negative torque or breaking efforts.
Doing a Cap hybrid drive and getting your Watts worth requires that you
stuff as much voltage into the caps as you dare. This needs a booster, to
get them as full as you can, and then, you need a booster to suck the caps
as empty as you can. On the regen mode you will need to buck from your regen
voltage into a empty cap, or live with some real heavy regen efforts at the
onset.
So... I can give you the accurate losses.
They are enough that the Electrathon racers use a freewheel clutch... and
forgo the regen.
As most of do with series motors.
----- Original Message -----
From: "mark ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:35 PM
Subject: Re: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
> I have been watching this thread and it looks like
> -Rich- you are the man that will be able to answer a question I have
regarding DC PM motors. You have indicated that DC Permanent Magnet motors
will always present losses even if the armature is left open. Up to now I
could not get the answer as to if you have an open unconnected coil of wire
spinning in a magnet induced magnetic field why this would be so. You seem
to indicate it is because of eddy currents.
> Assuming this is true-my question is two fold-first-do the losses increase
linearly with motor rotation (with a motor that is rotated by an external
force and with the armature left coil left open)?
> Second- as compared to the braking forces generated by a PM motor during
regenerative braking (something connected across the armature)-at the same
RPM and as a percentage-what is the braking force generated by a PM motor
that has its armature left unconnected.
>
> My project involves using two PERM Motor PMG 132 DC PM motors connected
directly the rear axles of my 2003 Honda Element. They will be used to
recharge a bank of ultracaps-which will be used to power an electric
supercharger and as well, when the electric supercharger is not in use, to
assist the ICE-but that is another topic.
>
> Any one else with answers please chime in.
>
> By the way-I work for Maxwell-feel free to query me on ultracaps. So far
the ultracap thread has been pretty accurate. Maxwell has a pretty nice
interactive calculator on their website that you can use to figure out how
many ultracaps you would need to proved a given current between a given
voltage window over a given time.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't race for pinks.
I race for glory and making engineering points.
PFC 075... humm nice idea, too many other folks doing that for fractions of
penies per watt.
A place I don't want to go.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: The first EV sports car
> Sounds like you guys want to race for pink. I really like the speed
stories
> and all that but for us real world EV users it's all about just getting
> there. I very rarely go faster that 75. So 0 to 60 means more to me than
> 100 mph in the quarter. Range also means more to me. I just hope all you
> guys can steal from each other, give us good ideas & make some good
> affordable stuff for us pluggers. A nice fast charger about the size of a
> note book would be nice. Something for the motorcycle or packs between
100
> & 400 pounds. Hint hint ....Lawrence Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 1:10 PM
> Subject: Re: The first EV sports car
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:47 AM
> > Subject: Re: The first EV sports car
> >
> >
> > > Hello to All,
> > >
> > > The title of this post irritates me. The first EV sports car has
already
> > come and gone,
> > > long before this new entry was even conceived...it was called the EV1.
> The
> > EV1 was here 10
> > > years ahead of the Fetish, and was a sleek two seater electric sports
> car
> > within financial
> > > grasp of many. Road & Track tested it and got 0-60 in 7.6 seconds, and
> > with NiMH
> > > batteries, I got a real world 145 miles per charge range when renting
> one
> > while traveling
> > > in California.
> > >
> > > John Westlund wrote:
> > >
> > > > The TZero is high 11s/ low 12s
> > >
> > > John, where are you getting these stats? Take it from me, getting a
> street
> > legal electric
> > > car into the 12's is no small task. Getting a production based, all
> steel
> > car with real
> > > windows, real bumpers, real doors, and a real roof, to run in the 12's
> let
> > alone 11's, is
> > > very hard to do.
> > >
> > > Many of us work very hard to design, build, and at sanctioned NHRA 1/4
> > mile drag
> > > strips and under NEDRA regulations race our electric drag cars. We
come
> > away with bonafide time
> > > slips that show everything and support our performance claims. White
> > Zombie's world record
> > > 12.991 @ 101.18 mph time slip is posted at the Zombie's page in the EV
> > Photo Album for all
> > > to see and inspect.
> > >
> > > We've invited AC Propulsion to come to NEDRA drag race EVents, but
> they've
> > never attended.
> > > I have no doubt that the lithium powered tZero could crack the high
> 12's,
> > as it ran a 13.2
> > > second 1/4 mile ET when it was heavier and powered by 28 lead acid
> > Optimas. High 11s/ low
> > > 12s? Show me the time slips!
> > >
> > > I've seen the tZero videos, most recently, the one with funky earth
> muffin
> > music playing
> > > (no drum track, no bass content, no 'impact'...hardly the kind to
> support
> > aggressive,
> > > tire-shredding 'real' drag racing) where they race the tZero against a
> > Porsche 911 in the
> > > rain on some airport tarmac. There were no timing lights, no speed
> traps,
> > and it was not
> > > even close to being NHRA approved. Instead, they have some dude with
an
> > umbrella to act as a
> > > Christmas tree.
> > >
> > > The other 'drag races' AC Propulsion uses in their PR, shows their car
> > > racing against a Corvette, a Porsche 911, and Ferrari F355...all in
the
> > 1/8th mile, not
> > > the more stringent 1/4 mile, where real drag cars go to see what they
> can
> > do. There's a
> > > reason for this, of course. AC Propulsion knows that in the full 1/4
> mile
> > drag,
> > > these cars would blow past the tZero, who's performance is capped off
> with
> > a self imposed,
> > > rev limited restricted top speed. Sure, they could change gear ratios
to
> > get the top speed
> > > up, but doing that would then slow down it's sensational 0-60 time,
and,
> > it would still lose
> > > to these same cars in the 1/4 mile drag. The tZero would get its fake
> > doors absolutley blown
> > > off by all three of these cars.
> > >
> > > AC Propulsion's 'drag race' claims (1/8th mile instead of tougher 1/4
> > mile) are
> > > reminiscent of Solectria's old tricks, when trying to mask their
s-l-o-w
> > EV's 0-60 times
> > > they instead bragged about 0-50 in 10 seconds. They only ceased that
> > nonsense when I
> > > posted a challenge to their claims and exposed the fact that a car
that
> > does 0-50 in 10
> > > seconds, takes an agonizing 17 seconds or so to crawl up to 60 mph.
I'm
> > certainly not
> > > saying tZero isn't quick and fast, but quoting race stats that claim
the
> > tZero 'out-drag
> > > races' expensive sports cars minus any 60 ft. times, minus any track
> > registered 1/8th mile
> > > times and speeds, and most important...minus any 1/4 mile ET and
speed,
> is
> > a bit
> > > misleading.
> > >
> > > > That TZero is an exceptional machine.
> > >
> > > Yes, in some ways it is, but in other ways...hardly. It's absolutely
> > terrific that AC
> > > Propulsion has forged ahead with power train and battery pack
> innovations,
> > especially the
> > > recent lap top battery pack and phenomenal distance per charge
> > achievements. The car has a
> > > killer 0-60, and it has stunning performance in most areas. However,
the
> > hop-over fake
> > > doors, the home-made build quality, and toy-like body structure (it's
a
> > kit car) are BIG
> > > negatives.
> > >
> > > I'd like to see a real car with their technology poured into it. A
small
> > > production car made like other cars on the road, a car that passes all
> > standards other
> > > cars must pass, a car with functioning doors and all the other
expected
> > features...then
> > > tout what 'this' car can do. For me, this would be far more impressive
> > > than what the current 'car' does. Imagine how the general public would
> > respond when seeing
> > > a comparison of say a Toyota Corolla XRS, a spunky boy racer 170 hp
> sedan
> > with 0-60 in 7.1
> > > seconds and a 1/4 mile ET of 15.8, to the 230 hp electric Corolla EV
> with
> > 0-60 in the low
> > > 5 second range, a 1/4 mile ET in the mid 13's, and a
> > never-have-to-go-to-the-gas-station
> > > range of 200-230 miles! Do you have any idea how many eyebrows this
> would
> > raise?
> > >
> > > See Ya....John Wayland
> > >
> >
> > I see John's points here.
> > The ACP guys have staid off the drag strip.... Where the BS meets
the
> > Road.
> > While I think that they could put up a fantastic showing... I also
> think
> > they don't want us to see the Weakness in thier design. It's really easy
> to
> > make somthing fast, but it's harder to make it both fast and quick. The
> real
> > question is Why they havn't just taken the Fast company Car to the
nearest
> > strip and bagged some Sub 12 to put into thier Add copy.
> > With the hype this Car has the the respect that even us NEDRA racers
have
> > for it... They really need to come and play with the Fast street cars
that
> > we have.
> >
> > And yes I agree that the EV1 was a Electric Vette, come decades early.
> Under
> > Stemple it might be on the roads now, in numbers that could make a
effect
> on
> > the PetroCarbon that we are Spewing in record numbers of tons.
> > The Tzero is a Kit car compared to the Ev1. To compare them and
thier
> > stats is a insult the the hard hitting guys that made the EV1 happen. We
> of
> > course would love to see the Tzero in larger cheaper volumes with a
> slightly
> > less mindboggling BMS system.
> >
> > The Tzero is a Boy racer kit car. Nice but it's not production level.
> Given
> > a few dozzen orders...... that of course could change.
> >
> > What I don't understand is Why Allan and company doesn't show up with
> about
> > 500Kw and wax our NEDRA Butts back into the stone age of Brushed motors.
> He
> > could and he should.
> > Hint Allan old Boy.... make it rear wheel drive, and don't spare the
> > silicon, Bring Amps....and lots of them...per phase, of course.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mark ward wrote:
> Rich... indicated that DC Permanent Magnet motors will always
> present losses even if the armature is left open... if you have
> an open unconnected coil of wire spinning in a magnet induced
> magnetic field why this would be so. You seem to indicate it is
> because of eddy currents.
I'm not Rich, but maybe I can help.
Rich is right. The losses come from core losses in the rotor's iron
core. They have nothing to do with the wire, and would be the same even
if the wire were removed.
The core losses occur because you have a lump of iron rotating in a
strong magnetic field. For each revolution, that iron must be
magnetized, in one direction, then brought to zero, then magnetized in
the opposite direction, then brought to zero again, over and over. The
fast you turn it, the greater the losses.
The amount of force depends on how much iron there is in the rotor, and
how strong the field is from the permanent magnets. What this means is
that a very high efficiency PM motor (lots of iron, very strong
magnets), will also have very high no-load losses, and thus very poor
efficiency at light loads!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Hmm... Since the capacitors will draw a "fixed" current due to the
>> resistors... Get yourself N identical tiny little 60 Hz transformers.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Unless I misunderstand you, capacitors do not draw fixed
> current. The current depends on individual "R_int" and resistor
> just being a poor man's fixed (to reasonable degree) voltage
> source. Each cap shunts its resistor with own R_int which is
> about 10 times more than 39 Ohm (worst case), so the voltages
> on the 1% resistors ladder are no longer quite the same, but
> acceptably close, within 10%. The current through a cap can
> vary wildly, can be several orders of magnitude different
> (0mA for "ideal" caps to 6 mA for worst ones, but as long as
> it represents only 10% of what flows through resistors (which is
> 60 mA at full charge), I don't care - the error cannot exceed 10%.
>
> Am I missing something?
No; that is correct. Your 39 ohm resistors make the capacitors appear to
draw a "fixed" current (at the desired voltage). When you include the
effect of capacitor leakage current, the 39 ohm 1% resistors act like 37
ohm 10% resistors. Thus, the voltages you get from each current
transformer will match within 10%.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> The problem is caused because each cell has a different capacitance.
>> Suppose there is a 20% difference between the cells. You start with
>> them all fully charged, and apply a high discharge current. The
>> lowest-capacitance cell will go dead when the rest still have 20%.
>> Then it goes negative (at high current). This destroys the capacitor.
>>
>> The reverse situation happens while charging at high rates. The
>> lowest-capacitance cell reaches its max voltage limit 20% before the
>> rest, and fails.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Lee, you are missing the fact that the caps will never be discharged
> deeper than 50%-60% DOD, they are in parallel with LiIons.
I understand. I was just giving an example of what would happen if you
let your capacitors discharge too far. In your case, you limit the depth
of discharge of the capacitors. This is safe, but as you pointed out
does not make the best use of their capability.
My point was that a more aggressive balancing scheme could let you
safely charge and discharge the capacitors more without risk.
> Different leakages will cause unrecoverable imbalance throughout
> the day, but the leakage current is milliamps, so due to that
> overall imbalance in one day is totally unmeasurable.
Quite true; however, the leakage current is not constant; it is
drastically affected by temperature. I don't know what it is for your
ultracapacitors, but for the Panasonic parts I used, it could easily go
up 100:1 at high temperatures.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Doug...
You need some form of voltage regulation or.... you are going to fry
batteries. Weather it's a feedback loop to the Ice engine govenor control
or
solid state SCR voltage regulation of the
BLDC phase leads.
Without some sort of controls beside RPM of the engine. This is Worse
that a Variac for AGM battery service work.
What kind of control do you have??? or any?
In practice it is not a problem. At the maximum RPM control lever position,
the voltage with no load (fully charged battery, negligable current) is
about 98V or 14V/battery. This maximum is adjustable with a limit screw on
the governor control lever to what I want.
The generator also is not used like a charger to bring the batteries up to
full charge with a finishing charge voltage. I wouldn't run the generator
with the pack fairly well charged and have it making noise and consuming gas
to only provide a few Amps charging that is not needed. The generator is
used when the vehicle is running and maybe when stopped if the batteries are
quite discharged from running and have more distance to do without being
able to plug-in. If the batteries are only partly discharged, the voltage
would be about 13.2V per battery as the generator supplies about 20 Amps
with the vehicle stopped or coasting. If the batteries are say 70%
discharged, the voltage will be about 12.7V per battery at 35A with the
vehicle stopped or coasting. With the motor contoller drawing current, the
voltage could 10.5 to 13V per battery and the generator providing 60 to 40
Amps, depending on the current draw and the batteries' state of charge.
(These are just rough values to illustrate the ranges and trends, actual
values will depend on battery type, capacity, temperature, etc.). The
generator is not operated in a dangerous voltage range to fry the
batteries, both by the nature of how it is used, and its current and voltage
limiting characteristics.
But if you wanted to try to cause problems, with a generator setup like
mine, then charge the battery pack full first and then turn on the generator
at maximum RPM setting and leave it run for hours until it runs out of gas.
All you would be doing is holding the batteries at a float voltage they
could stand for days, at very little current being supplied. Of course,
using regulators on each battery, with an output that shuts down the
generator if a battery's voltage were ever to go too high, would be
desireable, as for charger cut back control. But the regulators would be
less likely to ever give that overvoltage signal with the generator since
the generator's output voltage is lower, only taking the batteries through
bulk charging.
You should beable to do boost control of the output of that BLDC.
Very true. I didn't try to take the discussion that far in the last email.
If the generater output is not enough for the battery pack, spending some
extra for boost electronics would make it workable.
With the MG24 under-voltage example I gave, I could also do the following
to provide more voltage for charging the battery pack with the vehicle
stopped: Connect the generator + output through a high current Schottky
diode to the pack +. Connect my spare DC/DC converter's 13.2V output across
the diode with correct polarity that has the voltage adding and diode
reverse biased when the DC/DC converter is on. Current limiting circuitry
or at least a circuit breaker, should be used. Switch on the pack power to
the DC-DC converter input when it is necessary to raise the generator
voltage higher for charging. This could provide 20 Amps or so of battery
charging (with about 3 amps consumed by the DC-DC converter).
without having to run the rpm up and down.
The generator RPM lever is generally just set to maximum and left like that
for a long time. With a small generator like the 6.5HP that only supplies
about 1/3 of highway speed current, it is preferable to drop the RPM down a
little after an hour or so of running, as the battery pack voltage/SOC
drops. But unless I am doing a long trip near maximum range, I am just as
likely to shut the generator off by this point and finish the drive as
electric-only, like I did both ways last weekend. So it is no trouble to
control this generator. The 14kW generator will supply about all the power
needed for highway travel and the battery SOC and voltage won't change much
during a trip. It will be a case of "set to max" and forget it until the
next stop.
What I had thought of doing a couple of years ago, before I started using
the generators, was to have a control that pulled the RPM control lever back
as the current reaches a maximum set value. This would be good if building
a small range extender generator for John Q Public, to avoid overloading the
engine for a long time.
Best Regards,
Doug
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep. That's how I read it. Hard to believe huh. Lawrence Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:49 PM
Subject: RE: Deafscooter's 1 St place on Route 66 Rally 9/25
> Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > He was competing against gas scooters. He won overall.
>
> Really? Can you point me to something that corroborates this?
>
> According to the AMMRA site, Craig was the top *electric* finisher (out
> of a field of 1), but there is no mention of him winning overall:
>
> "Craig Uyeda was the top electric finisher with his awesome personal
> electric creation that was clocked at 57mph! Mike Yartzoff of Hard Parts
> USA was the top gas scooter finisher and John Kim was the top micro bike
> finisher."
>
> I could be mistaken, but it seems that if the participants are divided
> into electric scooters, gas scooters, and micro bikes, then Craig was
> competing only against the other electric scooters (of which there were
> none). If he was competing against the other classes, then why were the
> participants divided into classes to start with and why is the
> performance of the micro bikes not being stated (if he won overall, then
> he must have bettered their performance also)?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe Rudman has some. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: EV Generators
> Power vs. weight on these eCycle BLDC motors seems really good. My
> question is, how does one get their hands of one of these? eCycle's
> website lists Infranor as their only distributor. Infranor's website
> does not mention these MG series motors at all, only their new
> "electronic commutator" motors (which are interesting in their own
> right).
>
> Also, are there other manufacturers with comparable products, for
> someone looking for a lightweight, efficient generator?
>
> --c.r.
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 22:34, Doug Hartley wrote:
> > Bill Dennis wrote:
> > > Does the generator hook
> > > up to the battery pack looking like just another power source in
parallel?
> > Yes, with a circuit breaker for protection and disconnect when working
on
> > it, and an Ammeter shunt in series with one of the connections.
> >
> > I am using eCycle Permanent Magnet Brushless DC motors spun by Honda
> > engines, with a 3-phase diode bridge to produce DC directly, like an
> > alternator. Using a 120VAC single phase standard home power generator
would
> > not be as efficient, nor allow the voltage and current output to be
adjusted
> > directly with governed engine RPM.
> >
> > > If so, let's say someone installs a 10kW generator. If the car is
drawing
> > > only 9kW of power, does 9kW go into the motor, and the other 1kW go
into
> > > charging the battery pack?
> > With the type of generators I am making, generally the engine RPM can be
> > adjusted to provide some battery charging under light load. Since I
have
> > only made 5kW units so far (still waiting for my 14kW MG3-36LC),
charging
> > only occurs at very light load. The 14kW unit will be able to maintain
a
> > higher battery charging voltage level much of the time. A "10kW
generator",
> > even of the type described above, would only supply 10kW under certain
load
> > conditions it is perfectly matched for. If you reduced the load
current,
> > the voltage would probably not go up by the same percentage to keep the
> > power constant. In fact, you wouldn't want it to behave like this, as
it
> > would be too easy to overcharge the batteries under light load. How
much
> > the voltage rises as the load is dropped would depend if the engine was
> > overloaded and not able to make its set speed, and then with lighter
load it
> > will speed up. One of the advantages of this type of PM BLDC 3-phase
> > generator is that the voltage output is dependent on RPM, with some drop
> > according to the load. If you have some reserve speed and torque
available
> > from the engine, you can advance the speed setting to increase the
voltage
> > more to charge the batteries. There are lots of variables to consider
as
> > the batteries can be at differing states of charge at different times,
and
> > the motor load current is varying also as you drive. It is not like
running
> > a light bulb off a 120VAC generator that has a regulated, nearly fixed,
> > output voltage and the bulb draws a fixed current at that constant
voltage.
> >
> > An important consideration is that BLDC motor/generators are available
in
> > certain discrete voltage output choices (Volts per 1000 RPM rating -
> > multiply by 3 to get a rough realistic estimate of output at 3600 to
3900
> > RPM) and battery packs come in discrete voltage values, jumping by 6 or
12V.
> > The single stack 5kW size has the most voltage choices, so lets take a
look
> > at 3 practical examples of design using my 84V to 96V vehicles:
> >
> > Try an eCycle MG-24, Back EMF of 25.5V/1000 RPM and 57A max, highest
Amps
> > and lowest torque per Amp required: At 3600 RPM, only about 74V output
at
> > useable current, and that is not enough voltage. However, if you
overspeed
> > the engine a lot, you can get say 93 V at 15 A for charging a low
battery
> > pack, and 80- 84V at much higher current, depending on engine torque
> > available, for driving. That doesn't sound like a good idea, but if you
> > have only a small engine, like a 5HP GC-160, and want a light compact
unit,
> > using the MG-24 at high RPM would be the way to get the most current
from
> > this engine. This is true because it gives more current than a higher
> > voltage MG for the torque this engine can produce, and you are getting
> > relatively high power out of a small engine.
> >
> > How about the next voltage up, an MG-30? This is a better choice, rated
at
> > BEMF 31.8V/1000RPM and 47A maximum. Couple it to a 6.5HP GX-200 and you
can
> > have up to 35A charging without overreving as much, and 50A running at
84V
> > (sandwich a large thick aluminum plate to the MG-30 for heat sinking
when
> > mounting it). This is what I have now under the back of the Skoda
pickup.
> > It matches well to 93V TS Li Ion sagging down to 84V AGM batteries
support.
> > Set the speed lever to max and it will charge a low 84V pack or my
hybrid
> > pack, at about 35A and provide more than 50A under load (driving). With
a
> > fairly discharged battery pack and high motor load, the engine speed
setting
> > should be reduced.
> > Couple the newer generation MG-30 with good added cooling to a GX-270
9HP
> > and you could probably get near to 6 kW out. I have one of these to
try
> > when I find some time, and spare money to buy the 9HP engine. Once
built,
> > it will probably get installed in the pickup to provide a small power
> > upgrade over the existing 2002 model MG-30 and 6.5HP engine.
> >
> > Or an MG-36? BEMF 38.3V/1000RPM and 40A maximum. For an 84V system,
the
> > engine would have to be run slower, developing less power than with the
> > MG-30, to provide the correct voltage range. Current output would be
lower,
> > which makes sense, since there is less input power from the engine and
> > considering the lower current limit of the MG-30. So both the engine
and
> > MG-30 would not be delivering the output they are capable of.
> > But for a 96V system, the MG-36 would be near perfect: Raise the
engine
> > RPM and get about the full rated output of both the engine and the
MG-30.
> >
> > For higher voltage battery packs, there are not as many choices: the
MG-48,
> > BEMF 51.5V/1000 RPM, 29A and MG-62, BEMF 65V/1000 RPM and 24A.
> > The MG-48 would probably be optimum for a 144V pack and the MG-62 good
for a
> > 180V system.
> > If you have a 120V battery pack/system, you would need to use the MG-48,
but
> > at lower RPM and power rating, so as to operate at the correct lower
> > voltage.
> >
> > The larger eCycle 10kW and 14kW sizes have less choices as the power and
> > size are increased. All sizes have an MGx-36, so I am well supported
with
> > my 93 and 96V systems. You might find some other manufacturer's BLDC
unit
> > that has Voltage output and current in-between an MG-30 and an MG 48,
that
> > you could use at 3600 - 3900 RPM on a 120V system. Or maybe not. But
you
> > can see from the above how it goes and the design exercise needed to
choose
> > the motor/generator unit suitable for your EV battery voltage. Perhaps
it
> > would be better to do this early and choose the battery pack voltage
> > according to the available generator choices.
> >
> > HTH
> > Doug
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 3:12 PM
> > Subject: RE: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
> >
> >
> > > Thanks for the good info (again), Doug. I have a question about your
> > > generator--actually, generators in EVs in general. Does the generator
> > > hook
> > > up to the battery pack looking like just another power source in
parallel?
> > >
> > > If so, let's say someone installs a 10kW generator. If the car is
drawing
> > > only 9kW of power, does 9kW go into the motor, and the other 1kW go
into
> > > charging the battery pack?
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Bill Dennis
> > >
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I sealed mine with silicone sealant when I had the
> same thing happen.
> No repercussions.
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the tip. I think that silicone would work quite well if I can
make it stick over top of the gooey tar compound. Then again, I'll try
removing that stuff around the edge of the terminal end panel only.
Thanks for the reply Bob, it is much appreciated!
Regards,
Rick Pryor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have a CW EV Warrior motor for sale ? I was able to obtain the CCW motor
but now the CW seems to be in short supply. Any help or leads will be appreciated.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
eCycle understandably does not want to deal with selling to and
educating/supporting individual users, as it would drain too much of their
resources. They are working hard to open volume design-ins and sales with
OEMs that will enable high quantity production, cost reductions, and
revenues for on-going R&D. I have a relationship with them since a couple
of years, have bought a few units from them and would like to expand on
this. I should be able to act as a distributor for any MG or CMG model
(with drop shipping to you if you are not in Canada) and provide guidance in
using it successfully.
Let me know if you are interested, and provide some details of your intended
application.
Thanks.
Best Regards
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: EV Generators
Power vs. weight on these eCycle BLDC motors seems really good. My
question is, how does one get their hands of one of these? eCycle's
website lists Infranor as their only distributor. Infranor's website
does not mention these MG series motors at all, only their new
"electronic commutator" motors (which are interesting in their own
right).
Also, are there other manufacturers with comparable products, for
someone looking for a lightweight, efficient generator?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
SO... Was that video disertation an early "April Fools" Joke, or
is all that stuff he was talking about, just over my (simlple
technician's) head?? i.e. one would have to go back for his/her
Doctorate Disertation in Power Factor Correction - or something....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I replaced the front tire of the scooter with the tube
liner in place.
I would now like to remove each rear wheel, and put a
tube liner between the tube and the tire.
But with the scooter raise up on it's rear end, when
I use a wrench on one wheel, the other wheel turns in
the opposite direction.
I suppose this is because there is a differencial
connecting the two wheels and the motor.
OK, so how am I to remove the wheel nuts and get the
wheels off?
Is this as simple as, lowering the scooter back down to
the ground, and using the gravity and the wieght of
the scooter to let me get the nuts loosened?
The EV List's advice is requested.
-Bruce
=====
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On my car I loosen the lug nuts while the car is on the ground then jack
it up. Not very loose but enough to break the initial hold without
moving the nut far enough for the tire to slip. About 1/4 turn.
Eric
bruce parmenter wrote:
I replaced the front tire of the scooter with the tube
liner in place.
I would now like to remove each rear wheel, and put a
tube liner between the tube and the tire.
But with the scooter raise up on it's rear end, when
I use a wrench on one wheel, the other wheel turns in
the opposite direction.
I suppose this is because there is a differencial
connecting the two wheels and the motor.
OK, so how am I to remove the wheel nuts and get the
wheels off?
Is this as simple as, lowering the scooter back down to
the ground, and using the gravity and the wieght of
the scooter to let me get the nuts loosened?
The EV List's advice is requested.
-Bruce
=====
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi Lee, thanks for all the input. I obviously wasn't aware of most of the
topics you covered. I won't waste too much BW on replying to each item in
your reply here. I'll consider cafrefully what method of sealing I want to
use. We are in a low moisture environment, but a bit too warm for wax I'm
afraid. That would be an easy, affordable and eco-friendly fix, just not for
AZ.
Thanks again for the help!!!!!
Regards,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.visforvoltage.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=13&t=1047&s=45dddf27b1873e4b1f88dfa2b3c73c80
This is where I got this info. Lawrence Rhodes.........
Here is Craig ( Deafscooter) went to Seligman, AZ on Saturday (sept 25,
2004)
In morning, all Gasser peoples set up his Scooter to ready,,
Craig setup and inspection my scooter make sure battery charged
on Trailer behind my scooter I wrote log book on battery status
#1 == 12.89v
#2 == 12.91v
#3 == 12.87v
#4 == 12.90v
Mods Etek Motor's Brush setting is "ODD"
The Scooter's 16 ah Battery packs is Not USED ( not connected )
All Tires is set is 40 PSI Nitrogen filled ( Follow the factory specific )
All hardware is secured tighted and connect between battery to motor
=================================================
They Took the picture of me and my scooter before going Route 66 Road side
My lady provide support vehicle for electric scooter to Follow behind my way
I ride keep crusin speed at "ODD" brush setting and speed between
25 to 30 mph about 15 miles till see other gasser scooter on roadside
i going little faster to 40 mph to pass the gasser scooter on roadside
then i reduce to speed into crusin speed 35 mph for 2-3 miles long
to reach there hill climb about 2-3 degree up slope for 2 miles long
then i have automatic switch to 4 brush operation and boost make
my scooter and trailer go up hill steady 25 to 35 mph to reach top then
reduce the brush into "odd" timing to reduce current flow and reach to
Grand Canyon Caverns Place i get stop for break time and i checked
the Battery packs on trailer Status
here is
#1 == 12.53v
#2 == 12.59v
#3 == 12.58v
#4 == 12.56v
Only less than 00.40 Volts drained after rode first 25 miles longest
rest and take pictrure of Route 66 Logo on wall and
other gasser Filling the Gasoline on their scoooter
and get some lunch time and drink soda ALSO
Awesome the private airplane landed on street
and parking for while .......
After that some gasser scooter leave head east
then i checked all sure packs are secure and tire
is inflated (make sure no one tampered with it..)
Then i told my lady to ready to drive on support vehicile
and
i ride my scooter with trailed loaded same batteries pack
go east on 19 miles long way ...
i keep ride and crusin speed between 38 to 40 mph to
reach some gasser scooter on roadside and i pass them
till reach "Red mountian rock" see picture Group of scooter
before start Dash ( high speed for last 5 miles to goal into
pass the bridge on route 66 )
Completes Rode 45 Miles Trips Before stop on Red Rock Mountian
and Deafscooter checked Four large battery status on Trailer
#1 == 12.11v
#2 == 12.07v
#3 == 12.12v
#4 == 12.08v
then I removed heavy Large Battery packs from trailer
and
I install Lightest Doped Gray Battery packs ( Four of 12v / 12 AH )
on Trailer so the last battery pack will handle last 5 miles on road
I start last postion and let gasser scooter go headed east
( see picture of gasser scooter and im behind of gasser )
then i turn on "even" brushed on etek motor to Full power
and stables power make it Fast and motor get rise rpm
after reach 50 mph then reduce four brush turn off and
let other four brushed still power and keep low current
make high speed rpm Reach 57 Mph to End of Bridge
then other four brush apply to brake down speed to safety
stop the scooter .........
IF i use 8 Brush is powered it will more fastest and more Drain
the Battery's Juice to discharge rapid!!...
Here More check on website.
http://www.ammra.com/Rt.66Rally4.html
http://p196.ezboard.com/fussrlboardfrm9.sh...opicID=21.topic
http://p196.ezboard.com/fussrlboardfrm15.s...tart=21&stop=35
Craig Uyeda
Deafscooter
Here my Picture attached
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:49 PM
Subject: RE: Deafscooter's 1 St place on Route 66 Rally 9/25
> Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > He was competing against gas scooters. He won overall.
>
> Really? Can you point me to something that corroborates this?
>
> According to the AMMRA site, Craig was the top *electric* finisher (out
> of a field of 1), but there is no mention of him winning overall:
>
> "Craig Uyeda was the top electric finisher with his awesome personal
> electric creation that was clocked at 57mph! Mike Yartzoff of Hard Parts
> USA was the top gas scooter finisher and John Kim was the top micro bike
> finisher."
>
> I could be mistaken, but it seems that if the participants are divided
> into electric scooters, gas scooters, and micro bikes, then Craig was
> competing only against the other electric scooters (of which there were
> none). If he was competing against the other classes, then why were the
> participants divided into classes to start with and why is the
> performance of the micro bikes not being stated (if he won overall, then
> he must have bettered their performance also)?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
I assume that you have a single nut on the axle - hence the turning.
Gravity is your friend. Sit the scooter on the ground to loosen the
nuts, then lift it to take the wheels off.
Depending on how everything is arranged, and how flexible you are, you
might even be able to sit on the scooter and reach down to loosen the
nuts, adding your weight to the scooter to stop it from moving anywhere.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: bruce parmenter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 30 September 2004 2:00 PM
To: evlist
Subject: How to remove wheel nuts with a rear differential (?)
I replaced the front tire of the scooter with the tube
liner in place.
I would now like to remove each rear wheel, and put a
tube liner between the tube and the tire.
But with the scooter raise up on it's rear end, when
I use a wrench on one wheel, the other wheel turns in
the opposite direction.
I suppose this is because there is a differencial
connecting the two wheels and the motor.
OK, so how am I to remove the wheel nuts and get the
wheels off?
Is this as simple as, lowering the scooter back down to
the ground, and using the gravity and the wieght of
the scooter to let me get the nuts loosened?
The EV List's advice is requested.
-Bruce
=====
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
