EV Digest 3858
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Radio Shack batteries with 5 times the energy Battery charging in 15 minutes.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV 'X" prize?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Tommy Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Radio Shack batteries with 5 times the energy...
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Zorched Vicor dc-dc
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Zorched Vicor dc-dc
by "evranger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Zorched Vicor dc-dc
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Double charging
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: chicago land ev's
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Zorched Vicor dc-dc
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Alert - looking for stolen Zivan Charger (SF Bay Area)
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by "Arthur Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Double charging
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: vac. pump
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery charger - I'd build
by "Arthur Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: new SF EAA chapter meets Saturday
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: cost of the heart attack
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Woodburn Stories?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) October NBEAA meeting announcement
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Woodburn Stories?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On my last trip to Radio Shack for a battery for my multimeter I noticed a
battery using lithiuim that stated 5 times the capacity of Alkaline. I
thought alkaline was the winner over lithium. I also saw a rechargable
battery with 15minute recharge time. Any of this available to EV projects
yet? Lawrence Rhodes.... .
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ev's have gone 1000 miles on a charge and hit 3.6 seconds to 60 maybe the
prize should be given to the one that does both in one vehicle. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: EV 'X" prize?
> There have been lots of good suggestions for an EV-related "X" prize.
> They are basically describing the desired vehicle in great detail. Lots
> of rules and restrictions. This is pretty much what almost all races do.
> They seek to define not only WHAT must be done, but HOW you must do it.
>
> My own thought is that the idea of the "X" prize is quite different. I
> think the idea is to state a problem as concisely as possible, and place
> as few restrictions as possible on how it is to be achieved.
>
> For instance, the "X" prize just asks that you carry two people into
> space (defined at 62 miles up), and do it twice in two weeks with the
> same vehicle. They did NOT say whether it had to be done with a rocket,
> or airplane, or balloon, or even a big Jules Verne type cannon. HOW you
> did it was left up to the designer's imagination.
>
> This kind of prize encourages people to think "outside the box". Come up
> with NEW solutions that haven't been tried before. When faced with a
> difficult "insoluble" problem, one way to solve it is to ignore the past
> solutions (after all, they didn't work), and seek NEW ones that haven't
> been tried yet.
>
> So, maybe the next "X" prize is to invent a new method of transportation
> that is:
>
> - is energy efficient
> - uses renewable fuels
> - transports people to/from work
> - is faster than driving in rush-hour traffic
> - is "reasonably" comfortable (keeps rain off, provides heating
> and cooling).
> - is "reasonably" affordable (no unobtainium)
>
> I happen to believe that electric power will be a significant factor in
> the design of such a vehicle. But, I don't think it must be
> *exclusively* electric.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I'm relatively new to EV and this list, having lurked here for a while.
I've read a lot of conflicting stories and recommendation on AC vs DC
which puzzles me, especially wrt. stall torque. As far as I understand
(ignoring the controller), the only real difference between AC and DC
moters is 3-pole vs. 2-pole and brushes, so assuming the same input
power and motor weight, shouldn't the AC motor have approximately 5/6th
of the DC stall torque? Or is the lossage in the controller (~
inverter) significant?
Thanks,
Tommy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> On my last trip to Radio Shack for a battery for my multimeter I noticed a
> battery using lithiuim that stated 5 times the capacity of Alkaline. I
> thought alkaline was the winner over lithium.
>From my experience, when it comes to non-rechargeable AA batteries, the lithium ones
claiming to have 5 times the run time as alkaline, absolutely deliver!
I'm a heavy use type of digital camera guy, and these much lighter lithium batteries
really do run my camera about five times longer than the top grade alkalines.
I can burn through alkaline batteries in about a week of typical camera use, but it
takes
me well over a month to go through a set of the lithium ones.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I'm looking for suggestions for a DC-DC converter that works on 228 VDC
nominal traction pack.(19 Exide Orbital Blue tops)
I thought I had the perfect solution a 300 volt Vicor DC-Dc module. input
spec. of 180 to 375 VDC output of 13.5 V @ 50 amps. Max temp 100C (good Huh?) I
mounted it on a heatsink with a fan that comes on at 70 C. I hooked it so
that it fired up with one of the main contactors. Turned the key and the battery
voltage jumped from its nominal 12.8 volts to 13.5 volts. I left it run for a
few minutes no heat detected anywhere. At this point I'm a happy EVer and off
I go to get a 4 wheel alignment done on my E-Fiero.
After a 10 mile drive to the local Les Schwab I'm answering questions and
showing off the batteries & pretty green Zilla controller to most of the shop
guys. After answering the perfunctory how fast, how far, & how much did it cost
questions I drive up on the alignment pit they attach all their gadgets and
then discover that they don't have the cam bolts to adjust the rear wheels.
(Fieros have fully adjustable rear wheels) So they disconnected all their gadgets
ordered the parts and made a new appointment. ( oh well I get another excuse to
drive the EV) I leave for home with the ACC battery voltage reading 13.5 V
and my nice bright "ELECTRIC" taillights blazing away. About half way home I'm
cruising along about 45 MPH and I get on it a little to see how the batteries
hold up, the car pulls hard but the low battery voltage blinks (its set to 205
volts) I let up on the throttle and the light goes out.
I hadn't noticed but I believe the DC-DC stopped working at the same time.
By the time I get home it is obvious that the DC-DC is not working. The
battery voltage is back to its 12.8 V
I check the heatsink barely warm. however both the fuses are blown. I have a
fuse in both the positive and negative wires from the traction pack. (Yes, I
wear suspenders and a belt) I replaced the fuses and turned the key ---
Nothing--Bummer. The Vicor is potted so disassembly to determine the type of failure
is impossible. I use an Orbital for the ACC battery so its not a problem
except for a separate charger for it.
I'm looking for a DC-DC with a 30 amp output that will handle a voltage range
of 200 to 300 volt nominal input. Preferably one that won't kill itself if
the input sags a little. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Pat Sweeney
KICKGAS Fiero
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's where it is for me, at a different level.
DC controller = $1600
AC controller = $3000
DC controller = 144V lead-acid floodies, $1250
AC controller = 200-300V = AGM batts. with regulators,
$3000
DC controller; no regen.
AC controller; regen. No more brake pads.
Sooooo, that leaves me with a DC controller (for
now)!!!
(;-p
Hope that helps.
--- Tommy Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm relatively new to EV and this list, having
> lurked here for a while.
>
> I've read a lot of conflicting stories and
> recommendation on AC vs DC
> which puzzles me, especially wrt. stall torque. As
> far as I understand
> (ignoring the controller), the only real difference
> between AC and DC
> moters is 3-pole vs. 2-pole and brushes, so assuming
> the same input
> power and motor weight, shouldn't the AC motor have
> approximately 5/6th
> of the DC stall torque? Or is the lossage in the
> controller (~
> inverter) significant?
>
> Thanks,
> Tommy
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
DC controller; no regen.
AC controller; regen. No more brake pads.
Dumb question time. I always thought that a generator produced DC and was
both a motor and generator, and would provide regen when the wires were
reversed. How does an AC motor regen? Does it produce AC when regenerating?
Thank you
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm, sounds odd. I've been running a vicor for 4 years in my Ranger
with a 192 volt pack. Sounds like the same model as I remember the input
specs being something like 175 to 375V. It has belted out 35amps when
required without complaining. Much better than the Todd that I had
previously. I wouldn't give up on the Vicor just yet.
Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 4:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Zorched Vicor dc-dc
Hi All,
I'm looking for suggestions for a DC-DC converter that works on 228
VDC
nominal traction pack.(19 Exide Orbital Blue tops)
I thought I had the perfect solution a 300 volt Vicor DC-Dc module.
input
spec. of 180 to 375 VDC output of 13.5 V @ 50 amps. Max temp 100C (good
Huh?) I
mounted it on a heatsink with a fan that comes on at 70 C. I hooked it
so
that it fired up with one of the main contactors. Turned the key and the
battery
voltage jumped from its nominal 12.8 volts to 13.5 volts. I left it run
for a
few minutes no heat detected anywhere. At this point I'm a happy EVer
and off
I go to get a 4 wheel alignment done on my E-Fiero.
After a 10 mile drive to the local Les Schwab I'm answering questions
and
showing off the batteries & pretty green Zilla controller to most of the
shop
guys. After answering the perfunctory how fast, how far, & how much did
it cost
questions I drive up on the alignment pit they attach all their gadgets
and
then discover that they don't have the cam bolts to adjust the rear
wheels.
(Fieros have fully adjustable rear wheels) So they disconnected all
their gadgets
ordered the parts and made a new appointment. ( oh well I get another
excuse to
drive the EV) I leave for home with the ACC battery voltage reading 13.5
V
and my nice bright "ELECTRIC" taillights blazing away. About half way
home I'm
cruising along about 45 MPH and I get on it a little to see how the
batteries
hold up, the car pulls hard but the low battery voltage blinks (its set
to 205
volts) I let up on the throttle and the light goes out.
I hadn't noticed but I believe the DC-DC stopped working at the same
time.
By the time I get home it is obvious that the DC-DC is not working. The
battery voltage is back to its 12.8 V
I check the heatsink barely warm. however both the fuses are blown. I
have a
fuse in both the positive and negative wires from the traction pack.
(Yes, I
wear suspenders and a belt) I replaced the fuses and turned the key ---
Nothing--Bummer. The Vicor is potted so disassembly to determine the
type of failure
is impossible. I use an Orbital for the ACC battery so its not a problem
except for a separate charger for it.
I'm looking for a DC-DC with a 30 amp output that will handle a voltage
range
of 200 to 300 volt nominal input. Preferably one that won't kill itself
if
the input sags a little. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Pat Sweeney
KICKGAS Fiero
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Three things:
A- was it a BattMod? It should have been
B-70C sounds like too high a temp for the fan. Most Vicors prefer 85C
at the case, which is a lower temp at the heatsink, but see below, as
the GenII in theory can run hotter.
C- Your specs sound like a GENII module which is not recommended for
use in parallel with a battery. I have seen exactly this failure with
the GenII product.
Seth
On Oct 17, 2004, at 7:26 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi All,
I'm looking for suggestions for a DC-DC converter that works on 228
VDC
nominal traction pack.(19 Exide Orbital Blue tops)
I thought I had the perfect solution a 300 volt Vicor DC-Dc module.
input
spec. of 180 to 375 VDC output of 13.5 V @ 50 amps. Max temp 100C
(good Huh?) I
mounted it on a heatsink with a fan that comes on at 70 C. I hooked it
so
that it fired up with one of the main contactors. Turned the key and
the battery
voltage jumped from its nominal 12.8 volts to 13.5 volts. I left it
run for a
few minutes no heat detected anywhere. At this point I'm a happy EVer
and off
I go to get a 4 wheel alignment done on my E-Fiero.
After a 10 mile drive to the local Les Schwab I'm answering questions
and
showing off the batteries & pretty green Zilla controller to most of
the shop
guys. After answering the perfunctory how fast, how far, & how much
did it cost
questions I drive up on the alignment pit they attach all their
gadgets and
then discover that they don't have the cam bolts to adjust the rear
wheels.
(Fieros have fully adjustable rear wheels) So they disconnected all
their gadgets
ordered the parts and made a new appointment. ( oh well I get another
excuse to
drive the EV) I leave for home with the ACC battery voltage reading
13.5 V
and my nice bright "ELECTRIC" taillights blazing away. About half way
home I'm
cruising along about 45 MPH and I get on it a little to see how the
batteries
hold up, the car pulls hard but the low battery voltage blinks (its
set to 205
volts) I let up on the throttle and the light goes out.
I hadn't noticed but I believe the DC-DC stopped working at the
same time.
By the time I get home it is obvious that the DC-DC is not working. The
battery voltage is back to its 12.8 V
I check the heatsink barely warm. however both the fuses are blown. I
have a
fuse in both the positive and negative wires from the traction pack.
(Yes, I
wear suspenders and a belt) I replaced the fuses and turned the key ---
Nothing--Bummer. The Vicor is potted so disassembly to determine the
type of failure
is impossible. I use an Orbital for the ACC battery so its not a
problem
except for a separate charger for it.
I'm looking for a DC-DC with a 30 amp output that will handle a
voltage range
of 200 to 300 volt nominal input. Preferably one that won't kill
itself if
the input sags a little. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Pat Sweeney
KICKGAS Fiero
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an Elec-Trak I-5 that I use at my farm. The person I purchased it from
had converted it to use a standard automatic golf cart charger. It works quite
well and I love it.
The only thing I don't like about it is when I am doing a lot of mowing, I run
her down and it takes so long to recharge. Well a few months ago I purchased a
golf cart, so now I have two golf cart chargers.
I have heard people on this list talk about using two or even three chargers at
once. I know that I will have to make sure that each charger is plugged into a
different circuit (else it will trip) but other than that, are there any dangers
or special precautions I should take. I have already fitted a second Anderson
connector to the Elec-Trak.
Thanks in advance,
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 2:40 PM
Subject: chicago land ev's
> i am looking for someone or some club in the chicago area that could help
> teach me about ev's. does anyone know of any thing. thanks a lot.
>
> You're in luck! The Fox Valley EV folks would like to hear from you, in
Chicagoland. Should be able to Google them up? Good Luck!They meet once a
month, I think, and hasve a nice selection of cars to show!
Looking for EVer's in CT
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm looking for suggestions for a DC-DC converter that works on
> 228 VDC nominal traction pack. I thought I had the perfect solution;
> a 300 volt Vicor DC-DC module. Input 180-375 VDC, output 13.5 V
> @ 50 amps...
>
> the low battery voltage blinks (set to 205 volts)... I believe the
> DC-DC stopped working at the same time.
>From the power level, I'd guess that you used a Series II module. They
are about 3x the power (amazing power density), but do not have the
built-in thermal protection of the series I (VI-200) modules.
What probably happened is that your input voltage fell below the 180v
minimum, and the output was simultaneously demanding full power. As
input voltage falls, input current must go up to supply the power.
Eventually, the input current gets too high, and the module dies.
If it's any consolation, I have murdered a few Vicors myself. Luckily,
I've known what I was doing at the time, so I know what killed it. My
own experience says they can be killed from:
- excessive baseplate temperature
- overvoltage on the input
- reverse polarity on the output
- excessive AC ripple on the input
Both Series I and II are not really a complete DC/DC solution. They are
only the power section. Don't expect to just bolt them to a heatsink,
and wire their inputs and outputs directly to your batteries. They are
only the power section; they lack the EMI filtering, inrush limiting,
fusing, thermal shutdown, and over/under voltage protection that a
complete solution requires. If you want them to live, you have to add
parts to do these jobs externally.
So, you can try another Series II module; but add external protection
and shutdown circuits to keep it within specs.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> DC controller; no regen.
>> AC controller; regen. No more brake pads.
Dave wrote:
> I always thought that a generator produced DC and was both a motor
> and generator, and would provide regen when the wires were reversed.
> How does an AC motor regen? Does it produce AC when regenerating?
All motors are also generators, regardless of whether they are AC or DC.
However, some motors are easier to use as generators than others. A
brushed series DC motor is optimized as a motor, and thus is harder to
use as a generator. Thus, most DC motor controllers are not built to try
to do regenerative braking (regen).
Induction AC motors are equally easy to use as either motors or
generators. Thus, most AC motor controllers include the ability to do
regen.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A friend's EV was relocated and broken into last night in the south SF Bay Area.
Besides the usual stereo equipment, they also stole the Zivan 110vac/156vdc charger.
If anyone sees a Zivan charger for sale in the SF Bay Area, on Craigslist, or ebay, or
other sale site, please let me know. Might be the stolen charger. Definately want to
recover it for my friend.
Thanks,
Ed Thorpe
etcadman-at-yahoo.com
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The series motor doesn't act any differently when the wires are reversed,
provided only two wires come out and it hasn't been modified. A majority of
the DC motors used by members on this list are series-wound. In order to
act as a generator, the field must be energized somehow. This is very
difficult to do/control and doesn't have nearly the performance of the AC
motor's regen. Seperately-excited motors and permanent magnet motors can do
regen, provided the appropriate circuitry/control.
The AC induction motor has a squirrel-cage rotor (usually), and by the load
putting torque back, the field is aided if there is a waveform already
driving the stator. If there isn't, a capacitor must be put between two of
the stator leads in order for current to recirculate. In electric cars, the
former situation is the case. Mathematically we speak of four-quadrant
operation, where the axes are torque and velocity; this means we can speed
up or slow down in forward or reverse. The control of regen is fairly
simple - it's just drive backwards because the slip speed becomes negative.
I've only driven one purely-electric car, powered by either my DC controller
or my AC controller, but let me tell you, the AC motor has regen written all
over it. My car now has stronger regen then drive! It is nice being able
to only drive with the accelerator but speed control is a bit jerky.
I don't know of any AC motors with three poles - mine has two (3600RPM), and
most have four (1800RPM). Remember, many DC motors have three phases as
well (brushless). Although the physics might suggest little difference
between the motors, the practical side to things is not all that similar
because of the necessary implementations.
Losses in the controller are quite small, whether you mean DC or AC. My
60kW inverter gives at least 98% at 5kW out; it just *barely* gets warm.
The motor, even with a fan, gets quite hot with high loads (I got the
Super-Efficient model as well).
To advertise my control system, I whipped up something in Photoshop. It
gives a good overview of the dilemma.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt - scroll down to the bottom
As you can probably tell, my system is AC : ) Hey, I have to have
something to work on!
I don't have a terribly good explanation of motors and DC/AC right now on my
website, but it is something I soon hope to add, since it is a source of
much confusion.
Arthur Matteson
Custom Auto Electronics - Jackson, MI
'80 Lectric Leopard, 'Little Homebrew AC'
> I'm relatively new to EV and this list, having lurked here for a while.
>
> I've read a lot of conflicting stories and recommendation on AC vs DC
> which puzzles me, especially wrt. stall torque. As far as I understand
> (ignoring the controller), the only real difference between AC and DC
> moters is 3-pole vs. 2-pole and brushes, so assuming the same input
> power and motor weight, shouldn't the AC motor have approximately 5/6th
> of the DC stall torque? Or is the lossage in the controller (~
> inverter) significant?
>
> Thanks,
> Tommy
> DC controller; no regen.
> AC controller; regen. No more brake pads.
>
> Dumb question time. I always thought that a generator produced DC and was
> both a motor and generator, and would provide regen when the wires were
> reversed. How does an AC motor regen? Does it produce AC when
regenerating?
> Thank you
>
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James and All,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have an Elec-Trak I-5 that I use at my farm. The
> person I purchased it from
> had converted it to use a standard automatic golf
> cart charger. It works quite
> well and I love it.
>
> The only thing I don't like about it is when I am
> doing a lot of mowing, I run
> her down and it takes so long to recharge. Well a
> few months ago I purchased a
> golf cart, so now I have two golf cart chargers.
>
> I have heard people on this list talk about using
> two or even three chargers at
> once. I know that I will have to make sure that
> each charger is plugged into a
> different circuit (else it will trip) but other than
> that, are there any dangers
> or special precautions I should take. I have
> already fitted a second Anderson
> connector to the Elec-Trak.
Yeah, I do it all the time with ferro types when I
need a fast fillup. Electronic reg types should work
too.
You need a large extension cord to put 2 on or
plug close to the breaker box. Ferro chargers output
current goes down when the voltage is low so for
fastest charging, big AC ext cord helps. Low voltage
also increases the AC amps trying to make up for the
low voltage.
If you have big AC wires you can run 2 of them off
1 outlet if you turn one on first to raise the batt
voltage before you turn on the second one. But not if
other loads are in the circuit.
For fastest charging, put in a heavy 120ac outlet
and run 1 120 leg to 1 outlet and the other 120 leg to
the other straight from the breaker box.
In an EV car, it's nice as 2 or 4 can be hooked up
to drink from 240ac when available like campgrounds,
ect.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> James
>
>
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Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam, how did you mount the MES pump? Where did you mount it?
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sam Thurber
Sent: October 16, 2004 8:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: vac. pump
I just finished installing a new vac pump from Victor.
It's a huge improvement over the other one. Virtually unnoticeable unless
you're really listening for it and their isn't any idling ICE-mobiles around
you. It got me to thinking that I've never heard the vac pump in the RAV4-EV
so I put it in my garage and stomped on the brakes a few times before I
noticed a slight "wirrr". It's significantly quieter than even the MES vac
pump.
I wonder if Toyota would sell the part if asked.
-Sam
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tommy, here is my list of pros and cons. Keep in mind that I did spend
more for the AC system.
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_DriveType.html
Also, search the archives, I seem to remember a note from Victor about the
cost of AC versus DC.
Don
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tommy Thorn
Sent: October 17, 2004 3:43 PM
To: EV List
Subject: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
Hi,
I'm relatively new to EV and this list, having lurked here for a while.
I've read a lot of conflicting stories and recommendation on AC vs DC which
puzzles me, especially wrt. stall torque. As far as I understand (ignoring
the controller), the only real difference between AC and DC moters is 3-pole
vs. 2-pole and brushes, so assuming the same input power and motor weight,
shouldn't the AC motor have approximately 5/6th of the DC stall torque? Or
is the lossage in the controller (~
inverter) significant?
Thanks,
Tommy
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Hi Sharon,
I would be happy to make three medium-power chargers for you, given some
time (I'm a student).
I just finished building a 96VDC/5-20A/120-240VAC charger for Omar Arias in
California, new owner of the Karmann Ghia built by Cliff Wilson. (Omar, if
you see this...I will E-mail you soon...but here it is.) It has the
possibility of connecting the white lead (within 1V of ground usually) to
the negative terminal of the battery pack. Omar's car has B- connected to
the body, so this effectively grounds the body. Unfortunately this lowers
the power factor by 0.15 and power output by 20%.
The charger runs on anywhere from 120-240VAC, and can charge batteries from
12V-120V. With a 96V load and 120VAC input (without white lead to B-), it
supplies 7A with a 0.90 power factor. It has a current meter with a
custom-made label, and needs no fans. It has two fuses, neon/LED
indicators, and two different "speeds." Pictures are below:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt/145.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt/146.jpg
Unfortunately, 144V will not fully charge with only 120V input, even with a
$60 20VAC boost transformer. At lower voltages, the peak currents are
awful. It would be better to just build an isolated setup with: rectified
line -> boost switch -> inductor -> switcher -> 3:2 transformer -> batteries
and a simple, reliable 12V/60Hz transformer to provide drive/logic power for
the PIC. Then, power factor correction and voltage adjustment could be
done, and only three low-side switches would be needed total, 4x3 IRFP460P
come to mind...
Just thinking out loud again, anyway, but now I'm
excited...................I hear it now..."It can't be done!"...
My estimated price would be $250 per charger but only in the quantity of 3.
They would only work well with 144V packs and would have a very simple
taper/timer. Let me know what you think, Sharon.
Arthur Matteson
- Custom Auto Electronics - Jackson, MI
- '80 Lectric Leopard, 'Little Homebrew AC'
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt
> Hi Guys, does any one of you know how to make a bettery charger, to
> run at about 10 amps, input of 110 Volts, and out put of 144 volts.
> all the ones that I have found ..so far.. are priced way over my
> buget..I was wondering who would like to take on that kind of
> project???? I may need 3 of them. Thanks Sharon
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--- Begin Message ---
Marc and Sherry,
Congratulations to you and everyone involved for starting
the San Francisco Chapter of the EAA !
Wish I could have been their for the commissioning.
Was at the Texas State fair Saturday and
could not find any energy progressive vendors on things like
renewable energy or any public agency touting environmental
awareness.
Hope it went well in SF. If you don't mind it would be great if
either of you can share how things went with the SF-EAA's first
meeting.
Cheers,
Danny Ames
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--- Begin Message ---
Real world numbers??
With the good torque sensor and the new 50Khz 16 bit data logger, I
should be able to get some really good data...should I have the time to get
the Dyno taking real data.
One point you might want to understand, the BLDC motors that I have in teh
MBH project can be wired to trade RPM for torque. Should you need 25 to 30
Ft lbs of torque at a 200 rpm I can make that. But.... you better have some
serious fans taking away the winding heat.
Stump pulling power with little rpm leaves little room for cooling.
There are others that use the BLDC motors for Ebike work. In Fact a
Randy Draper in Hawaii has some hill climbing records with these BLDC
drives and a small 50 amp drives, and Evercells.
The MBH drive has a 175 amp per phase at 48 volt limit. And I can rail the
motor current at will. The MBH has doen 40 mph, with lower chain ratios,
and I tested it at about 90 Watt hours per mile this spring before we had a
melt down event on the rotor... The silicon is still in good shape.
So it can be done with a good ratio selection, and nice tires. Just bewarned
that the MBH as it currently sits probably could suck the spokes right out
of most large frame road bike rims.
8Kw is rather over kill for street bikes. Scooters and small motorcycle
bike frames are more in line with what should be paired to this creation.
Big point is I am not selling, promoting or producting the MBH drive at this
current time. With Real funding, and serious effrots from, my support team,
this could change rather fast.
I am doing Chargers Right now, That's where the Green is.
----- Original Message -----
From: "richard ball" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: cost of the heart attack
> i think for my eteck bike project i will fix a small trailer on the back
and use 4 big batteries and to hell with the calculations
>
> Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:$102,000 billed to me when
insurance company rejected claim. $40,000
> when insurace paid contract price. (can you believe they would hold me
> to the $102,000 when they would take 40K ? ) (No-one panic, it was a
> partial block that they fixed with a stint, out in 2 days ) but I need
> to get back on the bike!
>
> I have all kinds of books on bicyling science and am interested in
> building an electric assited bike also. As the racers can atest too,
> Horespower is kinda meaningless it is the torque that does the work and
> the rpm is how fast, but it helps us with our calculations. Eddie Merks
> was measure at putting out 2hp peak, everyone is under 1 hp after the
> first minute, but even I can put out as much as the peak torque that my
> little mitsubishi truck put out. it is the low rpm that gives the low
> HP. High torque low rpm is not normal efficiency of motors, so while
> humans gear up, a motor must gear down.
>
> so let us say I want to go 40mph to work under electric power, it is 8
> miles on level ground.
>
> power to push through the air + power to roll + power to climb is the
> majority
> 1/2 C V^2
> C = volocity in m/s 40 miles * 5280 feet * 1 meter
> * 1hr = 17.9 m/s
> my book
> uses
> 17.9 hr mile 3.28
> feet 3600s
> watts = C * [K1 + K2C^2]
> k1
> k2 watts neglecting slope, headwind, and acceleration needs
> RR = raodster 7.845
> .3872 2361
> SS = sport bike, dropped handlebars 3.509 .258 1543
> RG = racer 2.508
> .1916 1144
> CHPV = steamlined fairing 3.097 .06
> 400 wow!, need a fairing
> UHPV = reclined and stramlined 1.85
> .03 205 ok, not worth getting ran over.
>
> 8 miles at 40mph is 12 min (yeah, right, it takes 20 in the car)
>
> 2361 W / 24V = 98 amps /5 = 19.6aH = 2 optimas to get there ? 2
> Hawker G12v38 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 33lbseach need at least 2x cause of
> wind,accelr not feasable
> 1543 w / 24v = 64amps / 5 = 12.8aH reasonable at 20mph
> 1144 W /24V = 47amps / 5 = 9.5ah reasonable at around 30
> 400 /24 = 16amps /5 = 3ah gonna need fairing for 40mph
>
> Rich, what kind of real world numbers can you give us from the MBH?
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
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--- Begin Message ---
Yea Ot has a 2000 amp controller
Wayland has a 1400 amp machine.
John has the gearing and traction, Ot does not.
I should say gear set.. with that big 9 incher ring and pinion set.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: Woodburn Stories?
> WOW, you beat him by a full car length to the 60 foot lights.
>
> I was not aware that CaPoppy was that much quicker than White Zombie.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:32 AM
> Subject: Woodburn Stories?
>
>
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I've been pretty busy working on controllers and haven't even caught
> > up on the EV list. Did I miss Johns post about Woodburn?
> >
> > It's just that Ken Lange sent me this nice video of one run against
> > the Zombie and I was looking for a explanation. :-)
> >
> > The video is here: it's 1.1 mb.
> > http://www.fat.cafeelectric.com/CapopeVsZombieNedra2004.mov
> >
> > Have fun!
> > --
> > -Otmar-
> >
> > http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> > http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tommy Thorn wrote:
> I've read a lot of conflicting stories and recommendation on AC
> vs DC which puzzles me, especially wrt. stall torque. As far as
> I understand (ignoring the controller), the only real difference
> between AC and DC moters is 3-pole vs. 2-pole and brushes
No; you are confusing "phases" with "poles".
All motors are AC inside. A DC motor is an AC motor with an internal
DC-to-AC inverter. A brushed DC motor uses a mechanical rotary switch
for its inverter (the commutator and brushes). A brushless DC motor uses
electronic switches as its inverter. An AC motor just leaves both of
these out; you either run it from AC power, or with an external DC-to-AC
inverter.
Phases
"Phases" in an electric motor roughly correspond to "pistons" in a
piston engine. A single-phase electric motor is like a 2-cylinder
engine; you get two power pulses per revolution (assume it is a 2-cycle
engine). A 2-phase electric motor delivers 4 power pulses per
revolution; a 3-phase delivers 6, etc.
As a practical matter, the power "pulses" in an electric motor are much
smoother than the explosions driving a piston. So it turns out that even
a 2-phase motor delivers essentially smooth pulse-free power. A 3-phase
motor's torque is essentially pulseless.
Poles
"Poles" refer to the number of magnetic poles (north and south) in one
complete revolution of an electric motor. In the simple case of a
permanent magnet motor, you can easily count the poles by moving a
screwdriver or other piece of iron around its inside.
Since magnetic poles always come in pairs (north and south), motors
always have an even number of poles (2, 4, 6, etc.) The number of poles
determines the speed of the motor. If you apply 60 Hz AC, a 2-pole motor
wants to run at 3600 rpm. A 4-pole motor is 1800 rpm, 6-pole is 1200
rpm, etc.
Doubling the number of poles halves the speed, but doubles the torque.
Thus, the same weight motor delivers about the same horsepower
regardless of the number of poles. But a 4-pole motor has half the speed
and twice the torque of a 2-pole motor, for example.
> shouldn't the AC motor have approximately 5/6th of the DC stall
> torque?
No; for all motors (AC or DC), torque is proportional to current. AC
motors generally have less torque because their controllers deliver less
current.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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October NBEAA Meeting Announcement
23rd October, 10 am - 12 noon, followed by a BBQ
at
the residence of NBEAA member Chris Jones,
1654 Pamela Drive, Santa Rosa, CA 95404.
The topic of discussion will be "Designing an EV Conversion".
Chris will moderate the discussion, sharing the results of
his research and soliciting information and questions about
topics such as batteries, battery management, drive systems,
chargers and donor cars.
The agenda can be found at
http://www.geocities.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/EV/26.htm
Traditional and advanced technologies will be compared. Please
bring any information or materials you may have on the subject
matter. Both new and experienced converters are encouraged to
attend, so we can help each other out.
The discussion will be followed by a lunch-time BBQ. Any
contributions of food or drinks welcome, but we will try to
make this a zero-waste event, so please no disposable
utensils, plates or napkins.
RSVP to Chris ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) if you do plan
to attend. Please let him know if you will be bringing any
guests, if you need help with directions or if you have
charging requirements.
Location: Jones residence, 1654 Pamela Drive,
Santa Rosa, CA 95404
Time: 10 am, 23rd October, 2004
Meeting contact: Chris Jones
Tel: (707) 578-5987
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Might it also be relevant that Ot has a transmission? Torque multiplication
by using a gear besides "direct" has a significant impact on the 60 foot
time.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Woodburn Stories?
> Yea Ot has a 2000 amp controller
> Wayland has a 1400 amp machine.
> John has the gearing and traction, Ot does not.
> I should say gear set.. with that big 9 incher ring and pinion set.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 9:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Woodburn Stories?
>
>
> > WOW, you beat him by a full car length to the 60 foot lights.
> >
> > I was not aware that CaPoppy was that much quicker than White Zombie.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:32 AM
> > Subject: Woodburn Stories?
> >
> >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > I've been pretty busy working on controllers and haven't even caught
> > > up on the EV list. Did I miss Johns post about Woodburn?
> > >
> > > It's just that Ken Lange sent me this nice video of one run against
> > > the Zombie and I was looking for a explanation. :-)
> > >
> > > The video is here: it's 1.1 mb.
> > > http://www.fat.cafeelectric.com/CapopeVsZombieNedra2004.mov
> > >
> > > Have fun!
> > > --
> > > -Otmar-
> > >
> > > http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> > > http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
> > >
> >
>
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