EV Digest 3859
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Zorched Vicor dc-dc
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Twike (was Food energy)
by "Schacherl Jens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Double charging
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EV Display in Lawrence
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: FAQ DC vs AC
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery charger
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: ProEV's Imp on track!
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV 'X" prize? (part 2)
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Test Only, Empty Text
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Woodburn Stories?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV 'X" prize? (part 2)
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: new SF EAA chapter meets Saturday
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV 'X" prize?
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Motor Trend, EVs in November Issue
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: new SF EAA chapter meets Saturday
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Testing
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Contactors for the Uninitiated
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV 'X" prize? (part 2)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) EAA San Fracisco Chapter website or mailing list.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Fedex moving in the right direction
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Motor Trend, EVs in November Issue
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Motor Trend, EVs in November Issue
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Battery Desulficators
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) li-ion boost pack musings - supercaps vs. lead acid?
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) more on maya-100 ev
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) EBEAA Meeting this Saturday 10/23/04 10-12 in Alameda, CA
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The Vicor units are very stout. However if they are killed that is it.
They are not repairable per Vicor tech. support. I grounded out mine and as
soon as the faulty connection was repaired the unit started to work again.
Mine is 5 years old and still going strong. Mine is a 48vdc to 12vdc unit.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 8:48 PM
Subject: Re: Zorched Vicor dc-dc
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I'm looking for suggestions for a DC-DC converter that works on
> > 228 VDC nominal traction pack. I thought I had the perfect solution;
> > a 300 volt Vicor DC-DC module. Input 180-375 VDC, output 13.5 V
> > @ 50 amps...
> >
> > the low battery voltage blinks (set to 205 volts)... I believe the
> > DC-DC stopped working at the same time.
>
> >From the power level, I'd guess that you used a Series II module. They
> are about 3x the power (amazing power density), but do not have the
> built-in thermal protection of the series I (VI-200) modules.
>
> What probably happened is that your input voltage fell below the 180v
> minimum, and the output was simultaneously demanding full power. As
> input voltage falls, input current must go up to supply the power.
> Eventually, the input current gets too high, and the module dies.
>
> If it's any consolation, I have murdered a few Vicors myself. Luckily,
> I've known what I was doing at the time, so I know what killed it. My
> own experience says they can be killed from:
>
> - excessive baseplate temperature
> - overvoltage on the input
> - reverse polarity on the output
> - excessive AC ripple on the input
>
> Both Series I and II are not really a complete DC/DC solution. They are
> only the power section. Don't expect to just bolt them to a heatsink,
> and wire their inputs and outputs directly to your batteries. They are
> only the power section; they lack the EMI filtering, inrush limiting,
> fusing, thermal shutdown, and over/under voltage protection that a
> complete solution requires. If you want them to live, you have to add
> parts to do these jobs externally.
>
> So, you can try another Series II module; but add external protection
> and shutdown circuits to keep it within specs.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Food energy
>There was indeed someone in Seattle importing the Twike in about
>1998 named Victor Munoz. I think a few were sold in the Seattle
>and in the Portland areas. The European company (Swiss if my
>memory is correct) that was making them went bankrupt a few years ago.
Fortunately, that's not the end of the story: the German importer (FINE Mobile GmbH)
bought
the assets from the Swiss company and has continued production.
A new "PowerTwike" with NiMH batteries and 100+ miles range is in development and
should be available next year (I've already seen, and even touched, the prototype ;-).
They also make a model called "Easy" without pedals.
For details:
http://www.twike.com
http://www.twike.org
http://www.twikeklub.ch
Regards, Jens
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The older Solectria Forces came stock with dual chargers. Mine has the two
240 VAC version, some had two 120 VAC units. Normally they are both fed
from a common inlet in the filler door, but they can be unplugged in the
trunk and powered separately.
When 240 is not available, I setup my two 120 to 240 step up transformers
and run each charger from a separate 120 VAC outlet on separate
breakers. Works just like being on one 240.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yesterday John Brecher and I displayed our EVs in Lawrence, Kansas for the
Home Energy Conservation Fair. I have never taken my Force so far from
home before, 40.1 miles from my door to the fairgrounds. My wife escorted
me in our ICE Honda, 45 mph on 70 mph state highway 10. Good thing it was
Sunday morning and traffic was light. I made it, but the car dropped into
creep mode and the low voltage alarm triggered just as I reached the
parking lot.
We actually displayed indoors. Kind of neat driving an EV inside a
building. I was able to setup my two 120 to 240 step up transformers and
run each charger from a separate 120 VAC outlet on separate breakers. We
were displaying indoors, originally it was supposed to be over near the
kitchen area, but they moved us to the other side of the room. When I
checked, the kitchen had two 240 volt 50 amp outlets for a pair of deep
fryers which would have been ideal power taps. Oh well.
This display went quite well and we got a lot of interest. It is sad when
folks ask where can they buy one and all you can do is point to the
Internet and say find a used one or build it themselves. I don't care what
anyone in the auto industry says, there is a market for EVs.
The trip home was a bit more interesting as traffic was much heavier, but
we were able to re-route slightly and do the last 18 miles on surface
streets. 30 in a 35 is much safer than 45 in a 70.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll take a stab at this. Poles is not limited or tied to AC or DC. But
as to why AC motors don't have the torque it is a choice of construction
method.
the induction motor induces a recirculating current in the shorted rotor
bars. These bars are really slots in the laminates of the rotor that are
filled in with molten alum or copper, the end rings, often shaped into
fins, short the bars together.
As the rotating stator field moves past it induces a current in the bars
and thus a magnetic pole is formed in the laminates on the rotor and it
tries to follow the rotating magnetic field, never catching up. If it
did, slip becomes 0, current in bars goes to zero, rotor field collapses
and torque = 0 and the rotor slips behind again.
All Motors run on AC. Some get it from the outside, some make it on the
inside.
On a series DC motor there is a wound rotor and a place for the
excess current to go and the frequency is set by the commutator to the
rpm of the motor, automatically. In high torque situations an AC motor
has high slip and the excessive current will melt the rotor. The AC
control has to deduce the frequency and synthisize it to avoid this,
going for a high rpm, low torque design reduces these problems and their
associated losses and allows high eff.
There are wound rotor AC induction motors that can extract the excess
rotor current generated by high slip through a set of slip rings, the
brushes here last a long time because there is no sparking. These motors
can provide starting torque like a series DC motor(10 to 100x rated) at
a fraction of the amps!, and are used to start under load on rock
crushers, etc. Circuits exist to regenerate the slip energy back into
the system. I have often thought these might make ideal EV drag motors.
The simplest controler for variable speed is then a variable resistor
bank on the rotor windings, you can even inject a steady voltage to the
slip rings to lock he rotor into syncronizaton once up to speed.
Then there is BLDC trapazoidal,sinusoidal (sometimes called BLAC )
And there is Switched reluctance, written pole, shunt wound, compund
wound, Segmented array, pancake, ironless
There are about 30 different motor types!
ps actually all motors run on smoke, the current just keeps the smoke
in. If you let the smoke out, you have to take it to a shop.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In ICE cars I believe it is converted to DC via
Voltage regulator which has a bridge rectifier in it.
In the regen electrics I believe the AC controller
either converts AC to DC Or it is captured by the
capacitors where it is used to feeds the surge power
of restarting the vehicle and saves the batteries. At
least the is how I understand the working of Metric
Minds Honda in reading his descriptions. And in
reading Siemens Controller description there is a AC
to DC inverter which kicks in during regen mode.
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> DC controller; no regen.
> AC controller; regen. No more brake pads.
>
> Dumb question time. I always thought that a
> generator produced DC and was
> both a motor and generator, and would provide regen
> when the wires were
> reversed. How does an AC motor regen? Does it
> produce AC when regenerating?
> Thank you
>
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The cheapest one I made (non-iso types are dangerous) was from a uWave oven
transformer 1500W with a 25uf cap across the primary for PFC. The replaced
secondary with #14 wire was set for a final C/40 taper, about 4 amps and the
uP (motorola) was programmed for dv/dt=0 or <.01V per cell per hour; then
stop.- Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: Battery charger
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 10:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Battery charger
>
>
> > >
> > > Hi Guys, does any one of you know how to make a
> > > bettery charger, to
> > > run at about 10 amps, input of 110 Volts, and out
> > > put of 144 volts.
> > > all the ones that I have found ..so far.. are
> > > priced way over my
> > > buget..I was wondering who would like to take on
> > > that kind of
> > > project???? I may need 3 of them. Thanks Sharon
> > >
> >
> > Isn't 144vdc about the right output for a badboy (or badboy with
manners)
> > charger?
> > Yeah! Pretty darn close! I ran , as a test 21, 6 volt GC batteries in
the
> Rabbit so I could charge with just a bridge rectifier, with my rock solid
> 120 volts from my local utility. Worked great, plugitin and forget it,
Amps
> dropped off to about 3 at full charge, all I needed was a timer to shut it
> off. At work, my 100 foot 'stench cord does a good voltage dropping number
> so I can crank the veriac up to full, for 15 amps in. Crude, but it has
> worked for YEARS, in my situation.
>
> You truck folks have room to play around with the right number of
> batteries(voltage) to get the bad boy thing right, or do it from a 240
volt
> Bad Boy setup, like 40 batteries, A Red beastie setup?
>
> Chargin' Along
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
I started to type a short reply, but it required pictures. I will post them
on the website later this week. When they are up, I will email you.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 12:32 AM
Subject: RE: ProEV's Imp on track!
Hi Cliff,
Can you tell us a bit more about how the Kokam cells are mounted and
connected together?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A ten year, ten race series for electric cars built to \'street\'car like
rules, raced on a closed circuit road racing track. One race per year
with
gradually increasing distance requirements. Starting Year 1 with 22
miles,
Is there a track near where your at where this could be done?
Hi Steve,
There are a number of tracks that this could be done. In our area (Florida),
Daytona, Sebring, West Palm Beach and Homestead are all regular raced on by
Sports Car Club Of America. The SCCA permits EV racers if they meet SCCA
safety rules and speak to the Regional executive first.
Could this be done where street legal car could enter without putting roll
cages in ,
Steve clunn
To race wheel to wheel, on a track, a roll cage would be required. The SCCA
and other organizations also offer Solo and Autocross for cars without roll
cages. This is where the cars run through the course one at a time, racing
the clock rather than each other. The course is laid out with cones.
Autocross is tailor made for EV's. The course is usually very short (< 1
mile) so range is not an issue. It also lets you experience, in a safe way,
the extreme maneuvers your car might have to make on the road. Have you done
a good job balancing weight? Do the brakes work effectively? Do you have the
right spring/ shock combination? And you expose a bunch of car enthusiasts
to the possibilities of EVs.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-358-7082
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2004 11:32 PM
Subject: Re: Woodburn Stories?
> Might it also be relevant that Ot has a transmission? Torque
multiplication
> by using a gear besides "direct" has a significant impact on the 60 foot
> time.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
Yes you are right Joe....But Ot does not believe in that concept!!
He uses the highest gear that won't spin the tires. So... he drives
around in 3rd all the time, and has taken out the shifter so he can't select
gears whithout getting out
with a large screw driver... and shifting.
He has a nice 930 Turbo transaxle, and only uses 1 gear.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some random thoughts:
Land speed racing: Perhaps the hardest to do, in that it is only done
2 places in the U.S., requires crew, lots of safety rules.
Track racing: Limited number of tracks, some safety equipment
required.
Drag racing: Lots of tracks, lots of events, popular, stock classes,
perhaps best suited to EV's strengths.
Autocross: Cheap, 100% stock car OK, low speeds, probably the safest
form of racing.
Last random thought: EV motorsports probably isn't big enough for
this, but one can dream. Do all of the above. Have a mega EV race
week. Do it during "Speed Week" land speed racing on the Salt Flats.
That Friday night have a NEDRA event at Rocky Mountain Raceway.
Saturday have a range rally. Sunday do an SCCA autocross. Monday have
a track day at the rumored Utah track or Las Vegas. Hmmm, once I get
my car done I'll volunteer to help organize a "Land Speed +
Autocross" weekend.
--- Cliff Rassweiler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> A ten year, ten race series for electric cars built to
> \'street\'car like
> >> rules, raced on a closed circuit road racing track. One race per
> year
> >> with
> >> gradually increasing distance requirements. Starting Year 1 with
> 22
> >> miles,
> >
> > Is there a track near where your at where this could be done?
>
> Hi Steve,
>
> There are a number of tracks that this could be done. In our area
> (Florida),
> Daytona, Sebring, West Palm Beach and Homestead are all regular
> raced on by
> Sports Car Club Of America. The SCCA permits EV racers if they meet
> SCCA
> safety rules and speak to the Regional executive first.
>
> >Could this be done where street legal car could enter without
> putting roll
> >cages in ,
> > Steve clunn
> >
>
> To race wheel to wheel, on a track, a roll cage would be required.
> The SCCA
> and other organizations also offer Solo and Autocross for cars
> without roll
> cages. This is where the cars run through the course one at a time,
> racing
> the clock rather than each other. The course is laid out with
> cones.
>
> Autocross is tailor made for EV's. The course is usually very short
> (< 1
> mile) so range is not an issue. It also lets you experience, in a
> safe way,
> the extreme maneuvers your car might have to make on the road. Have
> you done
> a good job balancing weight? Do the brakes work effectively? Do you
> have the
> right spring/ shock combination? And you expose a bunch of car
> enthusiasts
> to the possibilities of EVs.
>
> Cliff
>
> www.ProEV.com
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny,
The meeting went very well. Sherry knows the exact #, but about 15
showed up. We'll be meeting again 1st Sat of each month. Elected
Sherry president and me VP.
Lawrence Rhodes announced an EV class he wants to put together.
Steve Rosenman talked about electric bikes.
Next meeting Nov 6th.
Stay safe down there.
Marc
On Oct 17, 2004, at 11:12 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Marc and Sherry,
Congratulations to you and everyone involved for starting
the San Francisco Chapter of the EAA !
Wish I could have been their for the commissioning.
Was at the Texas State fair Saturday and
could not find any energy progressive vendors on things like
renewable energy or any public agency touting environmental
awareness.
Hope it went well in SF. If you don't mind it would be great if
either of you can share how things went with the SF-EAA's first
meeting.
Cheers,
Danny Ames
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There have been lots of good suggestions for an EV-related "X" prize.
They are basically describing the desired vehicle in great detail. Lots
of rules and restrictions. This is pretty much what almost all races do.
They seek to define not only WHAT must be done, but HOW you must do it.
I understand what you are saying with WHAT and HOW but it is a little bit of
an artificial distinction. The 'WHAT must be done' is more specifically
defined than necessary for the pure task of traveling the distance as fast
as possible. The 'WHAT' is about improving the battery powered car. The
'What must be done' in my suggestion is roughly 'travel the distance in a
battery powered 'car' as fast as possible'. While one part of the my 'X'
prize goal is to improve EV tech, the other is to show the public that the
electric car is viable. That means it needs to look like what people think
of as a car even if a two or three wheeler might be a better solution.
The 'Buckeyes' 300+ MPH electric Speedster is an impressive accomplishment
but how many people will feel it is relevant to what they drive?
The Space X prize was about developing Space tech but it also was about
showing it is possible for regular people to go into space.
My own thought is that the idea of the "X" prize is quite different. I
think the idea is to state a problem as concisely as possible, and place
as few restrictions as possible on how it is to be achieved.
For instance, the "X" prize just asks that you carry two people into
space (defined at 62 miles up), and do it twice in two weeks with the
same vehicle. They did NOT say whether it had to be done with a rocket,
or airplane, or balloon, or even a big Jules Verne type cannon. HOW you
did it was left up to the designer's imagination.
This kind of prize encourages people to think "outside the box". Come up
with NEW solutions that haven't been tried before. When faced with a
difficult "insoluble" problem, one way to solve it is to ignore the past
solutions (after all, they didn't work), and seek NEW ones that haven't
been tried yet.
So, maybe the next "X" prize is to invent a new method of transportation
that is:
- is energy efficient
- uses renewable fuels
- transports people to/from work
- is faster than driving in rush-hour traffic
- is "reasonably" comfortable (keeps rain off, provides heating
and cooling).
- is "reasonably" affordable (no unobtainium)
To make this doable, each goal needs to be clearly defined. Space is 62
miles up. Energy efficient is what? 'Reasonably' comfortable is what? Which
is more important? I think you will find as you try and write your
definitions that the 'Whats' will decide the 'hows'. The goal defines the
solution. If you do not know the solution, it is difficult to be sure the
solution is of any practical value.
That said, how about $10,000,000 to the first company that puts into
production a battery that meets all the ABC (American Battery Consortium, I
think) long term goals for batteries including cost per watt?
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
I happen to believe that electric power will be a significant factor in
the design of such a vehicle. But, I don't think it must be
*exclusively* electric.
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All, I've waited long enough for these guys to blow their own horn and
nothing, so I have to be the first with congratulations. Both Steve Lough,
President of the Seattle Electric Vehicle Association, and our own beloved
Otmar of Zilla fame have their Letters to the Editor in print in the
November Issue of Motor Trend. Congratulations again for doing a great job
of changing the motoring publics perception of EVs.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-358-7082
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Test
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
www.floridaeaa.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quick side thought: My shunt motor on the Elec-Trak does outstanding
regen. There are a number of shunt wound motors out there; they can all
do regen natively. It's just the series wound motors that have problems
(pernament magnet motors can do regen as well)
There was at least one model of Rabbit that used a shunt wound system.
It is however quite true that brake pads will last forever on a regen
based car :-)
Chris
DC controller; no regen.
AC controller; regen. No more brake pads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do not know **anything** about contactors. I was just browsing the Tyco
site for auto relays, and came across this:
http://www.tycoelectronics.com/prodnews.asp?ID=586
Although I already have a setup, could this be used for EVs?
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about simply taking the existing X Prize one BIG step further...
The "Renewable X-Prize"...
Shouldn't be tough...
The stage 1 plane is already prop driven? no?
So make it rechargable electric with Lithium!
Stage 2, H2+O2 Rocket, via electrolosys....
Install enough solar and wind to recharge and
crack enough water in a weeks time for weekly
renewable space flights!!!
So, How much power do these guys use durring each stage??
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will ask the list. Thanks for reminding me. Lawrence Rhodes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Elliot Schwartz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [zappy] Build your own high performance electric Vehicle for
700 dollars/EAA San Fracisco Chapter inaugeral meeting
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> Do you know if there will be another meeting?
>
> Is there a mailing list or web site for the EAA San Fracisco Chapter?
>
> Thanks,
>
> elliot
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a link to a story about Fedex building a 900k solar array to power their
Oakland, Ca hub.
The article also said the "company would also soon increase the number of
gasoline-electric hybrid
vehicles it operates to save gasoline."
A little pressure from industry?
Below is the link, but it is so long it wraps. If it doesn't go there, copy the whole
thing into
the address line of you browser.
Dave Cover
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=581&e=6&u=/nm/20041018/tc_nm/transport_solar_fedex_dc
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
Doubling the number of poles halves the speed, but doubles the torque.
Thus, the same weight motor delivers about the same horsepower
regardless of the number of poles. But a 4-pole motor has half the speed
and twice the torque of a 2-pole motor, for example.
Oops! This isn't true. Increasing the number of poles doesn't increase
the torque. If the motor weighs the same, pole size must be smaller to
allow more poles to be installed. The torque will be practically the same.
Horsepower will be reduced in proportion to the reduced speed. This
is true for both DC and AC motors.
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Steve and Otmar or somebody else should post copies
of their letters to the editor in this forum. It seems
like a shame to buy a magazine just to read their letters.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 18, 2004 10:42 AM
Subject: Motor Trend, EVs in November Issue
Hi All, I've waited long enough for these guys to blow their own horn and
nothing, so I have to be the first with congratulations. Both Steve Lough,
President of the Seattle Electric Vehicle Association, and our own beloved
Otmar of Zilla fame have their Letters to the Editor in print in the
November Issue of Motor Trend. Congratulations again for doing a great job
of changing the motoring publics perception of EVs.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-358-7082
Phone: 360-385-7966 Fax: 360-385-7922
PO Box 221, 107 Louisa Street
Port Townsend, WA 98368
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DC controller = 144V lead-acid floodies, $1250
AC controller = 200-300V = AGM batts. with regulators,
$3000
Only partially true. If you keep the transmission instead of direct drive,
you can go with lower voltage. We are doing an AC version of the
Voltsporsche Kit at 144V. Also, it will use flooded 8V, not sealed
batteries. Finally, if you run the AC on something like the Deka Dominator
gels, you don't need the regulators.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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Awesome!
Usually, Motor Trend has been a bunch of newsies whoring out
products, BUT THIS, along with investigating hydrogen fuel
cell hurdles with fairness, is something I can give them
credit for. I might just have to pick up an issue this time
around just for the sake of having it.
Happen to have any screenshots?
I remember Otmar's message he wrote to MT that was posted on
this list:
“Being addicted to speed myself while committed to driving
clean when possible, I'll continue to run around town in my
old `74 Porsche 914 battery electric conversion. It does
0-60 in 5 seconds and gets all its energy from about $4000
of solar panels installed on the roof of my house. I just
can't see the logic in paying for the $16,000 worth of
panels it would take to make green hydrogen for a fuel cell
instead.”
I bet that caught the attention of some readers out there.
Otmar gives a Honda S2000, Nissan 350Z, Audi TT, and Porsche
Boxter all a run for their money, while getting its energy
in a sustainable manner. I bet that thing's a real joy to
drive...
"But officer! I couldn't have been going 140. This is an
electric car!"
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I've been spreading the info that the EVDL membership proved about how
battery desulfators are essentially a marketing gimmick, and that
vigorous charge/discharge cycles are equally or more effective.
One of the NEV guys asks:
"Is there a name specific unit i can buy that will do all this safely
with the stock [NEV] trojan batteries? is there a "fast
charge/discharge" unit i can buy>?"
Can anyone recommend a good battery conditioner that can put vigorous
charge/discharge cycles on tired SLA batts to break up sulfation and
wake them back up?
I know it isn't difficult to build such a device, but I was wondering if
anyone sold a product that is effective for this purpose. Inexpensive
price tag is (of course) a plus.
Thanks all!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
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Hi guys,
I'm finally coming to terms with the fact that the 90Ah thunder-sky
li-ion batteries may not be enough to give me the acceleration I want all by
themselves, so I have been trying to run some numbers to get an idea of how
much improvement I could expect from adding a boost pack of either 1700F
supercapacitors (http://www.nesscap.com/prod/General/ESHSP-1700C0-002R7.PDF)
or 5Ah Hawker Cyclons
(http://www.enersysreservepower.com/cyc_b.asp?brandID=4).
I chose these size caps & batteries for comparison because both packs would
weigh about the same (~120 lbs.) and would conveniently fit perfectly into
the battery box under the rear seat of my car where the gas tank used to
reside. I'm still not sure if either of these is large enough to really
give the performance I am hoping for, but at least it's a place to start.
Using the equations on Victor's web page discussing his supercap project, I
have come to the conclusion that a pack of 148 1700F caps would result in a
65V voltage drop over a 10 second period @ 75A.
Is there any comparable mathematical equation I can use to figure the
voltage drop for the lead acid batteries? Is the voltage drop linear as
capacity decreases? At the moment, for the comparison, I am figuring 28
12V, 5Ah blocks for a total nominal voltage of 336V. So what's the best way
to draw a performance comparison between the lead acid and the supercaps?
-Bryan Avery
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A month ago I enquired on the electrovaya batteries and today I finally got
a response. I thought other might be interested - so, here it is. Their
attachment is an image-based pdf file, so I can't paste any of it here.
But, at the bottom, I've included the essence (there really wasn't much in
their two pager anyway).
If you have questions, reply to this email and I'll compile them and send
them back to electrovaya. A few that come to mind are:
- pack voltage, Wh
- battery temperature performance
- battery internal resistance vs. current
- various battery safety test results
-------------
Dear Peri,
Thank you very much for your email. Due to a computer problem I'm not sure
if this is a delayed reply or hopefully only a duplicate. My apologies
either way.
In response to your question, no, at the moment we do not offer batteries
for EV conversions. Hopefully we will in the future.
In terms of performance, the batteries were recently chosen for NASA's
life-support systems for space walks. This gives an indication on the
performance, reliability and safety of the batteries.
At the moment our electric vehicle is still in development and as yet I do
not have a firm commercialization date. We anticipate the very first
vehicles to cost about US$70,000 with the price dropping quickly as
production increases. The design is platform independent. I have attached an
early spec sheet on the vehicle. It will be subject to change.
Best regards,
Gitanjali @ Car Inquiry
Electric Vehicle Program
2645 Royal Windsor Drive
Mississauga, Ontario
Canada L5J 1K9
T. 905.855.4610 Ext.3002
F. 905.822.7953
E. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W. www.electrovaya.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Peri Hartman
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 16, 2004 8:02 PM
Subject: maya-100
Hello,
I would like to know if the batteries you used in the maya-100 are available
for purchase. If so, I will have a number of questions about performance of
the batteries and what to do for battery management, etc. I, like many
others, am looking for a good brand of li-ion batteries to do an ev
conversion.
Alternatively, I could purchase the maya-100. I'm not sure you are
marketing it yet, and if so, it would likely be out of my price range. But,
do let me know, none-the-less.
I learned of this vehicle and your company from the evdl (ev discussion
list).
Thanks,
Peri Hartman
-------------
Attachment essence:
Standard features:
5 passenger, 4 door
dual air bags
am/fm stereo w/CD
power steering
Options:
A/C
tilt steering
power windows, locks, mirrors
antilock brakes
curb weight: 2987 lb.
cargo volume (w/ seats up): 20.2 (cu ft?)
battery: superpolymer; 200 Wh/kg
high speed charging: available soon
charging: on board, 120v or 220v
range: 160 - 230 miles
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I have this covered here http://www.metricmind.com/qa.htm
The bottom line is - pick a DC system if money is priority one (or you're
neck snapping/drag racing), and AC one if it's not. If the cost
wouldn't be a factor
at all, just about everyone would use AC drives because of their
advantages for
EV application. Unlike common misconseption though, the cost of an AC drive
is not that much different from *comparable* DC one, this is also
discussed in the
FAQ above. Good example is the best DC controller - Zilla 2K as the most
compatible by sophistication. It has more raw power than, say, Siemens AC
inverters, but less of everything else (no integrated DC-DC, no contactors,
no throttle sensor, no cables, no included interface harness, no
sophisticated
software, no internal memory to trace signals etc and 10 times less warranty
period) but still cost more than, Siemens. To the less degree this is
true for
MES-DEA or BRUSA AC inverters I'm familiar with, mostly because
they are sold at full price while Siemens are discounted.
Don't get me wrong, Zilla is about the best controller you can find today.
I'm just comparing the two - if you can afford Zilla 2k, you can afford
AC drive too and that's all I'm telling.
The price difference comes from the fact that people use simple DC
controllers
not really made for EV use (just suitable to handle the job OK) and
compare *that*
to a specialized EV AC drives.
Yes, I do have interest to promote AC drives, but steer people away when
appropriate.
Before you conclude that all above is biased opinion, go through the FAQ,
ask others, and form your own opinion.
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Don Cameron wrote:
Tommy, here is my list of pros and cons. Keep in mind that I did spend
more for the AC system.
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_DriveType.html
Also, search the archives, I seem to remember a note from Victor about the
cost of AC versus DC.
Don
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tommy Thorn
Sent: October 17, 2004 3:43 PM
To: EV List
Subject: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
Hi,
I'm relatively new to EV and this list, having lurked here for a while.
I've read a lot of conflicting stories and recommendation on AC vs DC which
puzzles me, especially wrt. stall torque. As far as I understand (ignoring
the controller), the only real difference between AC and DC moters is 3-pole
vs. 2-pole and brushes, so assuming the same input power and motor weight,
shouldn't the AC motor have approximately 5/6th of the DC stall torque? Or
is the lossage in the controller (~
inverter) significant?
Thanks,
Tommy
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*********START OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
Topic: EV Battery Chargers for Dummies
Date: Saturday, October, 23, 2004, 10 am to 12 noon.
Site: Alameda First Baptist Church
1515 Santa Clara Ave, Alameda
Visitors welcome, open to the public.
This month's topic, in our series on basic critical componients used in EVs, is the EV
Battery Charger.
Every EV runs on batteries and needs some means to recharge the battery pack. This can
be handled through individual chargers (one per battery) or one overall charger for
the entire pack. The discussion will include some of the history of EV chargers, from
"bad-boy" to high-end chargers, what is ment by "power correction" or PFC, and the
importance of pack isolation.
Come join us for this hands-on discussion, and there will also be EVs on display in
the parking lot afterwards for futher interaction. Also review/discussion about last
month's SVEAA Rally and the start of a SF EAA Chapter.
Directions: Church is on North side of street, at the corner of Santa Clara Ave and
Stanton St in Alameda. Turn North on Stanton St. and left into the parking lot.
http://www.geocities.com/ebeaa
**********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT************
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
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