EV Digest 3863
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Electravan wakes up
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Curtis 1231C Heatsink
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electravan wakes up
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Scooter battery balancer
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) expert advice needed
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Need Russco Charger Manual
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Need Russco Charger Manual
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: OEM Connectors, Relay sockets and Fuse holders
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Scooter battery balancer
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Scooter battery balancer
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Scooter battery balancer
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: battery hold down
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Fuel Cell Lifespan (Was Re: Motor Trend, EVs in November Issue)
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Fuel Cell Lifespan (Was Re: Motor Trend, EVs in November Issue)
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Fuel Cell Lifespan (Was Re: Motor Trend, EVs in November Issue)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Scooter battery balancer
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I hooked up 34ah of 120v Nicads and what do you know 104v. I said to myself
what could it hurt to fire it up. The motor spun it but saged to 60v in
neutral. Hot damn. I hooked up the Lester and it fired up too after 14
years dormant. It smoked a bit but that cleared up It started out at 12
amps and is now down to 8. Not sure when to stop but I think around 4 amps
and I'll check the pack for voltage and water. Thanks to everyone for the
help. However I really liked the little Subaru 600(really my wife likes it
cuz it is cute) If someone came over and offered me a few grand they could
have the Courier with only 2000 miles on it and I could buy the other car.
Then I'd fix up the Aspire. Really gotta lose one EV at least. But what
the heck. After all those years it fires up. No wonder the big auto
interests don't want electric anything. Just too dependable. Lawrence
Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Speaking of Curtis, the circuit was designed with
> intent to run a DC motors which meant in turn to be used in a
> vehicle, but the implementation hobby like. Curtis controller
> doesn't even care if a motor or any other kind of load is
> conected to it; all it does is PWM'ing battery voltage per
> throttle command. Tell me a single EV specific parameter of
> this controller that will prevent its use in non-EV
> application, such as a big light dimmer. It will work just
> fine, meaning it is not EV specific, it is universal device and EVs
> were kept in mind as one of the uses it would be suitable for.
So, by this logic, the fact that I can pull the ICE out of my car and
use it happily in a boat, or even as the prime mover for a stationary
genset "proves" that it was not designed specifically for automotive
use? ;^>
How about the fact that I can take a wheel and tire off my car and use
it on a [very skookum] wheelbarrow? Does this then 'prove' that the
wheel or tire were not designed specifically for automotive use?
The fact that a Curtis controller can be used for purposes other than
driving a traction motor in an EV does not change what its intended
application is/was.
> There are no means to optimize or even set any parameters to
> match the battery, or particular motor, because it is not
> designed for a particular motor.
More accurately, because the particular type of motor it is designed for
does not require it to be precisely 'tuned' to deliver acceptable
performance.
> The potting cannot handle outdoor temperatures without
> cracking, it is not a waterproof design, not to mention that
> high voltage bars sticking out exposed
> to touch by anyone. No way such a design would be adapted by
> any serious OEM manufacturer, not to mention to comply with
> ISO or any other common standard.
False. Curtis (and similar) controllers are used by the hundreds of
thousands (or more) by very serious OEMs in the golf cart, material
handling, etc. industries. The standards that these vehicles compy with
may differ from those which apply to on-road mass consumer automobiles,
however, they are still ISO, etc. Just look at the data sheets for
Curtis controllers (the sep-ex units come to mind) and notice that they
do state conformance to various European Norms with respect to EMI/EMC.
There is no doubt that your Siemens, etc. inverters are very nicely
implemented designs, however, there is also no doubt that a creative
individual with money to burn could configure one such that it could be
used as a very expensive light dimmer, or for control of an AC motor
that is not being used for traction purposes in an EV. This certainly
wouldn't change your view of what the intended application for the
Siemens inverter is, and neither does the intended application of the
Curtis controller depend on what other applications creative individuals
might imagine for it.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote Tuesday, October 19, 2004 10:51 PM:
> Patrick Maston wrote:
> > Lee, thanks for the explanation. I have a 1981 Jet Electrica
that I am
> > redoing to get it back on the road. I have no idea what the
current
> > draw will be. My plan is to mount the controller in the
opening where
> > the radiator would be on a gas car, with the heatsink plate
facing the
> > front and a muffin fan in front of the heatsink. I want to
put the
> > heatsink and fan on first so I don't have to keep redoing the
work. It
> > gets very hot here (Las Vegas area) in the summertime and I
think the
> > controller will need all the cooling I can give it.
>
> Luckily, what is "hot" to you isn't all that hot for power
electronics.
> The Curtis 1231C delivers full power until its internal
temperature
> reaches 185 deg.F. At this point, it starts to "whine" audibly
about the
> high temperature (a 1.5 KHz whistle), and it cuts back the
amount of
> power available. If the internal temperature hits about 200
deg.F, it
> shuts down completely.
>
[snip]
> - 500 cu.in in 2000 ft/min air (22 mph wind)
> That leaves 500 - 300 = 200 cu.in needed for the heatsink.
> For example, the Curtis heatsink is 12" x 9" x 2" = 209 cu.in.
> But 22 mph is a pretty stiff breeze; you'd need a couple fans
> to maintain this kind of airflow.
What I did after I had problems with my Curtis 1221B (and a
loaner) overheating in the summer and eventually losing power
going up my hill (the thing blew up after about a year in the
car - this is Dec. 1995), I obtained a 1231C and the Curtis
heatsink ($90) from ElectroAutomotive. I decided I was going to
hang the controller off the heatsink (heat goes up, right (I
thought at the time), but now I think this is actually this is
more of a conduction issue (don't think direction matters) than
convection) and have two fans pushing air. The fans are 4" KTA
fans run at half voltage (fans are in series) mounted on
flat-head bolts drilled through the heatsink. No more hot
controller. This thing rarely gets at all warm, and has been
happy as a clam since spring 1996.
I do a lot of hill climbing in these parts, and the 1221B in
standard ElectroAutomotive VoltsRabbit configuration (aluminum
plate nestled diagonally in this corner) got very warm, hot
enough sometimes I could barely hold my hand on the case on a hot
summer day (100degF). This may be because the headlights are in
stock position on this car, perhaps cutting off some airflow, as
opposed to having them pushed out like on most VoltsRabbits.
Pic from spring 1996 at http://nbeaa.org/images/61a.jpg. This is
probably overkill according to Lee's theory. I also get some
cool air from under the lip of the hood.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I charged untill the charger dropped to 4 amps. Things are funny. At the
controller(Using my multimeter) the voltage is 112vdc. At the meter inside
the cab it reads 125vdc.(It is a Westinghouse meter that says it is an AC
meter) At the pack in the bed it reads 137vdc(using my multimeter). I
don't get it. Must be some major loses in the connections somewhere. Maybe
I should check the leakage to the body. Lawrence Rhodes.............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 2:18 PM
Subject: Electravan wakes up
> I hooked up 34ah of 120v Nicads and what do you know 104v. I said to
myself
> what could it hurt to fire it up. The motor spun it but saged to 60v in
> neutral. Hot damn. I hooked up the Lester and it fired up too after 14
> years dormant. It smoked a bit but that cleared up It started out at 12
> amps and is now down to 8. Not sure when to stop but I think around 4
amps
> and I'll check the pack for voltage and water. Thanks to everyone for the
> help. However I really liked the little Subaru 600(really my wife likes
it
> cuz it is cute) If someone came over and offered me a few grand they
could
> have the Courier with only 2000 miles on it and I could buy the other car.
> Then I'd fix up the Aspire. Really gotta lose one EV at least. But what
> the heck. After all those years it fires up. No wonder the big auto
> interests don't want electric anything. Just too dependable. Lawrence
> Rhodes........
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just installed 4 10.5ah 12v batteries in my scooter in series parallel for 24v. I've
only got 2 cycles on them but 2 of them get to 14.5v while the other 2 are still near
13.8v. I've aborted both cycles manually and charged each battery seperatly to 14.5v
and 200ma. Do people just ignore this on scooters? I can't find any info on somone
installing regulators on their scooters. Is this an application for a zener and
lightbulb (x4)?
thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi guys
i'm making progress with my etek powered ebike
i now am at the expensive "buying controller stage"
i need some help choosing which curtis controller to buy
the system is 48v 350A max
which model do you all think is most suitable ?
regards
richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
So, by this logic, the fact that I can pull the ICE out of my car and
use it happily in a boat, or even as the prime mover for a stationary
genset "proves" that it was not designed specifically for automotive
use? ;^>
I knew this should come from Roger, and here it is.
I'm sure you understand what I meant - there is NOTHING
specific in curtis controller we use in EV which is not in
curtis controller not used in an EV.
How about the fact that I can take a wheel and tire off my car and use
it on a [very skookum] wheelbarrow? Does this then 'prove' that the
wheel or tire were not designed specifically for automotive use?
Your wheelborrow with automotive tire will certainly roll, but will probably
be heavier, overprices compared to what it could have been, hader to
tilt (not round in crossection as for a motorcycle), etc. Yes, this means
it is not optimized for a wheelborrow; otherwise wheelborrow industry
would just use autimitive wheels already produced by millions.
The fact that a Curtis controller can be used for purposes other than
driving a traction motor in an EV does not change what its intended
application is/was.
Again, I asked, point me to a feature implemented in this controller
because it was required by on-road EV and not required by any other motor
(not in an EV).
More accurately, because the particular type of motor it is designed for
does not require it to be precisely 'tuned' to deliver acceptable
performance.
Agree. All depends how much sofistication you want. Contactor controllers
also have acceptable performance in its clas and standards.
The potting cannot handle outdoor temperatures without
cracking, it is not a waterproof design, not to mention that
high voltage bars sticking out exposed
to touch by anyone. No way such a design would be adapted by
any serious OEM manufacturer, not to mention to comply with
ISO or any other common standard.
False. Curtis (and similar) controllers are used by the hundreds of
thousands (or more) by very serious OEMs in the golf cart, material
handling, etc. industries. The standards that these vehicles compy with
may differ from those which apply to on-road mass consumer automobiles,
however, they are still ISO, etc. Just look at the data sheets for
Curtis controllers (the sep-ex units come to mind) and notice that they
do state conformance to various European Norms with respect to EMI/EMC.
I specifically said, it is not the circuit, it is interface and potting.
Fast-ons are not
good choice for reliable all-weather operation, you know that. YEt,
curtic does not
have any single connector on it, water proof or not. Controllers are not
suppose to be user serviceable as a user can get shocked (unless as you
said, it is
a 48V golf cart controllers, but I guess I should have mention that "EV"
in this discussion
meant a normal freeway capable vehicle anyone could purchase (if it were
produced)
like EV1 or Ranger or S10.
I think, Lee replied to someone about the epoxy compound delaminating from
extruded aluminum so the moisture gets in. Note, this has nothing to do with
EMI or other parameters designers took care of.
Please don't try to conclude that I'm saying that single person is not
capable
of creating good designs. It is manufacturing. cutting corners, often
make quality
unacceptable.
There is no doubt that your Siemens, etc. inverters are very nicely
implemented designs, however, there is also no doubt that a creative
individual with money to burn could configure one such that it could be
used as a very expensive light dimmer, or for control of an AC motor
that is not being used for traction purposes in an EV. This certainly
wouldn't change your view of what the intended application for the
Siemens inverter is, and neither does the intended application of the
Curtis controller depend on what other applications creative individuals
might imagine for it.
Cheers,
Roger.
Roger, you're better than this. I wasn't talking about Siemens, but of
course,
one could use it as a light dimmer. But in its software there are
parameters to set up
for tachometer output, battery protection, throttle sensor response
adaptable for
mechanical pedal travel of particular car, 12V DC-DC parameters, many things
so cas specific that it spells EV all over it as prime use it is made
and optimized for.
The fact that Curtis is not optimised for anything does not mean it is
equally
good for everything, it just means it is a compromize
designers/manufacturers chose
as acceptable (by *their* understanding of money/performance relationship).
Do you thing designers wouldn't want to optimise controller for particular
motor? I think they'd love to, but the problem is they don't know what the
motor will be. In case of Siemens (OR MES or Brusa or Huges or Dolphin
or Ballard or ...) they all being manufacturer of controllers AND motors
to match
them.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi. I'm in need of a manual for a Russco SC18-120 battery charger. If
anyone has one they would be willing to sell or xerox and mail to me for
a fee, please reply via email.
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about contacting the manufacturer:
Russ Kaufman
designer, manufacturer and distributor
RUSSCO Electro-Mechanical Engineering
POB 3761, Santa Rosa CA 95402-3671
Ph and fax 707-542-4151
cheers,
Andrew
----------------------
Patrick Maston wrote:
Hi. I'm in need of a manual for a Russco SC18-120 battery charger. If
anyone has one they would be willing to sell or xerox and mail to me for
a fee, please reply via email.
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
However, I feel that in order to have good regen breaking on a shunt
wound motor we would (e.g. on the elec-traks) to be able to raise the
field voltage (and thus current) above the battery voltage to slow
down the tractor.
Hm. I do most of my tractoring in L gear mainly because it gives max
regen going down hills and stays out of the red going up. It's true that
regen doesn't work as well in higher gears, however if one has a shunt
motor with a transmission one could downshift during slowdown and pick
up a lot of extra regen (on my E20 if I coast it then hit the regen it
slows down like someone dropped an anchor)
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check with a automotive service facility in you area and ask the parts
department where they buy their electrical connectors from. The stuff we
use is the weatherpak style like GM uses on their cars.
Mike G.
Don Cameron wrote:
I am searching, and searching for nice OEM style waterproof connectors (2-5
wire 10-16 gauge), relay sockets which I can easily bolt into a nice
electrical box, and OEM blade fuse holders. I have found **some** from
Bussman and Pico, but very limited selection. I have been all over the
internet without much luck. Any suggestions?
thanks
Don
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm sure you understand what I meant - there is NOTHING
> specific in curtis controller we use in EV which is not in
> curtis controller not used in an EV.
Actually, all the features that are in any controller are still in the
same controller regardless of what application it is used in, so I
suspect that what you really meant is that you don't think any of the
Curtis controller features are *specific* to EV applications.
> Again, I asked, point me to a feature implemented in this
> controller because it was required by on-road EV and not
> required by any other motor (not in an EV).
Well, how about the high-pedal lockout and sensing to prevent the
controller from starting up if the throttle pot is open or commanding
more than some minumum duty cycle? Certainly this is not a feature
required of any light dimmer (and possibly not even in a non-traction
motor controller).
And then there is the KSI input used to enable/disable the controller.
Curtii are available with this input requiring 12V or pack voltage to
enable the controller, and surely you can appreciate that the reason 12V
is supported is because most vehicles use a 12V system for their control
and accessory circuits?
> Your wheelborrow with automotive tire will certainly roll,
> but will probably be heavier, overprices compared to what it
> could have been, hader to tilt (not round in crossection as
> for a motorcycle), etc.
Well, my example could have had me pulling a wheel& tire off my
motorcycle and it would have been just as valid and eliminated at least
some of your criticisms of my wheelbarrow ;^>
No matter, as you appreciate the point I was making: a Curtis controller
can be used as a light dimmer, but it too will be heavier, and
overpriced compared to what it could have been, more complex to wire up,
etc. And, most importantly, even if someone did use it for a light
dimmer, that does not change that it was designed for use in traction
applications.
> I specifically said, it is not the circuit, it is interface
> and potting.
Sorry; you mentioned so many things that it was not clear to me that you
were bothered by anything specific.
Interface is a matter of opinion; you dislike Curtis' choice, but
Curtis' customers buy the product by the hundreds of thousands.
> I think, Lee replied to someone about the epoxy compound
> delaminating from extruded aluminum so the moisture gets in.
> Note, this has nothing to do with EMI or other parameters
> designers took care of.
I think that the potting issue has been overblown of late. No, the
Curtis package has not proven to be watertight in the past, however, the
potting on a recent 1221C that I repaired is actually a flexible,
rubbery (silicone-like) material while prior units I've examined used a
potting material that hardened rigidly. It may very well be that
Curtis' waterproofing issues have diminished in severity with this
change in potting material. Certainly, I would expect that any issues
with the potting 'cracking' away from the case have been totally
eliminated and that such reports are based on 'old' units. My own
experience has been that when an end-cap pops loose on a Curtis
controller it is the result of a sudden internal electrical failure and
the resulting sudden build up of internal pressure, but I can't refute
the reports by others.
> Fast-ons are not
> good choice for reliable all-weather operation, you know that. YEt,
> curtic does not
> have any single connector on it, water proof or not.
Yet fastons (and the similar 'bullet' style connector) *are* used in
automotive applications.
I agree that they are not the best connector choice out there, but their
presence does not automatically indicate that the product was not
designed with automotive or vehicular applications in mind.
> Controllers are not suppose to be user serviceable as a user
> can get shocked (unless as you said, it is
> a 48V golf cart controllers,
Did anyone say a Curtis is designed to be user servicable? It is a
sealed package that requires a fair bit of effort to open and reseal,
and Curtis certainly doesn't encourage people to attempt their own
repairs. I dare say that your Siemens inverter is probably more user
servicable as one can (I believe) simply remove some screws/bolts to
open the enclosure and gain access to its interior.
> Please don't try to conclude that I'm saying that single
> person is not capable of creating good designs. It is
> manufacturing. cutting corners, often make quality
> unacceptable.
Of course, but at the same time don't try to conclude that any company
that doesn't produce goods to MIL standards of packaging and
reliability, etc. is producing a poor design or one that isn't suited to
its intended or professed application.
You have been told by someone in the know (Mike) that the Curtis
controller was specifically designed with on-road EV applications in
mind; your personal opinion of its fit and finish and Curtis' design or
manufacturing choices doesn't change that reality.
If Curtis' customers shared your view, you can bet that Curtis would
offer the controller with some other connector arrangement, or some
different packaging, etc. rather than lose significant business.
However, if they change the packaging and/or connector arrangement and
in doing so increase the product's cost without the customers demanding
this 'improvement', they will lose business.
Once again, your Siemens, MES, etc. inverters are wonderful
implementations of their respective designs, and incorporate features
that major automotive OEMs would like and might even be willing to pay
for... however, how many thousands have been produced and installed
compared to the thousands of Curtis controllers?
> The fact that Curtis is not optimised for anything does not
> mean it is equally good for everything, it just means it is
> a compromize designers/manufacturers chose as acceptable (by
> *their* understanding of money/performance relationship).
Given that Curtis is selling their controllers by the thousand while you
are able to buy and resell surplus Siemens inverters because Siemens
can't sell them in sufficient quantity in their intended market suggests
that Curtis has a pretty reasonable understanding of the
money/performance relationship. ;^>
> Do you thing designers wouldn't want to optimise controller
> for particular motor? I think they'd love to, but the problem
> is they don't know what the motor will be.
I think that this has been covered in detail on the list previously.
The reality appears to be that for series wound DC motors and
controllers, there is little that can be optimised that will actually
improve performance with a particular motor. As long as the motor has
more than some minimum impedance, and the controller's switching
frequency is chosen well, the motor will work just fine. If the
controller manufacturer were offering a packaged solution, they might be
able to take advantage of their knowledge of the motor's characteristics
to reduce the controller cost, but motor performance is unlikely to
change significantly.
> In case of Siemens
> (OR MES or Brusa or Huges or Dolphin or Ballard or ...) they
> all being manufacturer of controllers AND motors to match
> them.
Yes, and I suggest that this has to do with the fact that there is so
much controller tweaking *required* to get optimal performance from a
given AC motor that these manufacturers *have* to offer a package
solution if they are to attract buyers and not go bankrupt from the cost
of providing engineering support to every different customer using some
different combination of motor and controller.
You can bet that if Siemens, MES, Brusa, etc. could offer an inverter
that could be connected to anyone's motor and deliver optimal
performance without any user intervention, they would be doing so
instead of offering a hugely complex and confusing array of parameters
that need to be set up uniquely for each different combination of motor
and controller (and battery and vehicle and user preferences, and...).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my opinion, I don't think most folks are that concerned over their
scooter batteries. Not to say they won't extend the life drastically by
taking better care of them, but at $10-11 for a new battery, they just
replace them. Even a simple regulator, if suppose say something $5 to 7
could be had, would be about the cost of the batteries themselves.
Spending $100+ for a battery warrants the additional cost for regs.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 18:51
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Scooter battery balancer
I just installed 4 10.5ah 12v batteries in my scooter in series parallel
for 24v. I've only got 2 cycles on them but 2 of them get to 14.5v while
the other 2 are still near 13.8v. I've aborted both cycles manually and
charged each battery seperatly to 14.5v and 200ma. Do people just ignore
this on scooters? I can't find any info on somone installing regulators
on their scooters. Is this an application for a zener and lightbulb
(x4)?
thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn you obviously never bought scooter batteries.
Last set cost me $120.00 for a set of 3.
Steve I am afraid most Scooter riders are Kids and
they
just plug and go without paying attention to the
charge.
And when they don't go they go and have the parents
buy new ones. At least that has been my experience
with then.
--- Shawn Waggoner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In my opinion, I don't think most folks are that
> concerned over their
> scooter batteries. Not to say they won't extend the
> life drastically by
> taking better care of them, but at $10-11 for a new
> battery, they just
> replace them. Even a simple regulator, if suppose
> say something $5 to 7
> could be had, would be about the cost of the
> batteries themselves.
> Spending $100+ for a battery warrants the additional
> cost for regs.
>
> Shawn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 18:51
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Scooter battery balancer
>
> I just installed 4 10.5ah 12v batteries in my
> scooter in series parallel
> for 24v. I've only got 2 cycles on them but 2 of
> them get to 14.5v while
> the other 2 are still near 13.8v. I've aborted both
> cycles manually and
> charged each battery seperatly to 14.5v and 200ma.
> Do people just ignore
> this on scooters? I can't find any info on somone
> installing regulators
> on their scooters. Is this an application for a
> zener and lightbulb
> (x4)?
>
> thanks,
> Steve
>
>
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Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 22:02:59 -0400, "Shawn Waggoner"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>In my opinion, I don't think most folks are that concerned over their
>scooter batteries. Not to say they won't extend the life drastically by
>taking better care of them, but at $10-11 for a new battery, they just
>replace them. Even a simple regulator, if suppose say something $5 to 7
>could be had, would be about the cost of the batteries themselves.
>Spending $100+ for a battery warrants the additional cost for regs.
I use Hawker Genesis batteries in my scooters which run $60-80 ea. I
STILL am not at all concerned about balancing to the Nth millivolt. In
fact, I'm not concerned at all. Simply charging them using a smart
charger with the setpoints according to the Gospel of Hawker has resulted
in >4 year life so far. Frankly, it ain't worth the mental masturbation
necessary to extend that life a bit more. I have more important things to
think about. Like how to cram 72 volts' worth of batteries into my
CitiCar and not upset the F/R balance too much :-)
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The fan unit is from Digi-Key which is by COMAIR ROTRON AC Fan. Is Tarzan
model with Flame retardant black, phenic with a flame retardant polypropylen
black blade ball bearings with lead wires going through a enclose conduit.
Motor is total enclosed with a totally enclose conduit for wires that exit
out the side. I used a Tarzam type that I bolted a flat lexon plastic 1/4
inch thick plate that I drill a 2 inch hole with a hole saw for 2 inch pvc
male adapter I J-B Weld to it.
This fan is then install inline on 2 inch PVC 1/4 inch thick flexible pipe,
that I used for air input and output for my battery boxes.
I has used this type of fan with metal blades, which did not last, so I
change it to this type.
The cfm on this model is 280/340 cfm.
Digi-Key Part No. CR259-ND
www.digikey.com
The acid proof Plastic coating is by Performix of see plasticdip.com . It
is normally used for coating tool handles or any other thing.
The specifications also is for battery connections and battery trays and
battery hold downs. I bought it from Home Depot.
Instead of coating the whole battery connector with this rubber coating, I
painted the battery connector with Rust-Oleum Appliance Expoxy paint. Red
for the positive and Black for the negative.
You can get battery connectors that are painted with this expoxy coating.
First brush the battery connector and dip it into laquer thinner or alcohol.
Roll up a paper towel in insert it tightly in the contact area, remove the
bolts and paint it with a minimum of three coats letting it flash between
each coat.
Then clean the battery post and tape off the contact area that will mate to
the connector. Applied the rubber coating from the tape edge to the battery
surface and let dry.
Install the battery connectors where the bottom of the connector touches
rubber coating. Finish off by putting a dap of rubber coating on the top of
post.
This rubber coating can be easily peel off and poke with testers and touch
up as needed.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 12:16 PM
Subject: RE: battery hold down
> Roland, a couple of questions:
>
> 1. where did you get the "acid proof" fans
>
> 2. what is the make of the "acid proof" rubber coating?
>
>
> Thanks
> Don
>
>
>
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: July 6, 2004 8:19 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: battery hold down
>
> The best design I found for battery hold downs, is the battery enclosure
> structure itself. My old battery racks or boxes were made out of metal
> and
> aluminum. This was NOT GOOD, THERE IS TOO MUCH CONDUCTANCE FROM THE
> BATTERY CASES TO THE METAL RACKS OR CONTAINERS.
>
> No matter how much you clean the batteries with all the battery cleaning
> solutions, I can still measure a voltage leak from the battery case to the
> frame.
>
> I place a rubber mat for the batteries to set on, but I found that the
> metal
> which was acid proof epoxy painted, was corroding the metal.
>
> With the lights out, while charging, I could see some arking between the
> battery cases and frame. AGAIN NOT GOOD.
>
> So on my next redesign and modifications of the EV System, I made battery
> boxes enclosures that would ISOLATED the batteries from any metal frames
> or
> the frame of the car by using 1/4 to 1/2 thick fiberglass material.
>
> Also all AC inputs and Battery charger components are also ISOLATED in a
> fiberglass containers.
>
> The fiberglass enclosures are coated with that same type of epoxy coating
> that is applied to bath tubs and showers which you can pick up as a kit at
> any home improvement center.
>
> The size of these containers is the size of the battery dim. plus allowing
> for a 1/4 to 5/15 inch space around each battery.
>
> Before I set the batteries in these containers, I place about 1 inch
> thick
> bed of baking soda in the bottom for the batteries to set on.
>
> To hold down the batteries, I used aluminum TEE-ANGLE which is 2 inch wide
> by 2 inch stub that goes down between the batteries.
>
> THIS T-BAR IF FIRST COATED WITH THAT RUBBER TOOL DIP STUFF WHICH IS ACID
> PROOF. or
>
> Take it to the place where they apply coatings to pickup beds. They can
> apply it in a smooth coating.
>
> The ends of the T-BAR's have a welded on flange that butts against the
> sides
> of the battery boxes. Make this flange long, so it will go all the way
> up,
> In my case, just about to the fiberglass hinge covers, which are also seal
> down with double groove gaskets.
>
> The T-Bar flanges are bolted through with a 3/8 or 7/16 stainless bolt in
> to
> a nut plate which is mounted on the outside of the box. The long flange
> on
> the T-Bar allows for different battery sizes.
>
> The nut plate that is mounted on the outside of the box, is a long flat
> steel bar stock of 3/16 thick by 2 inches wide with 3/8 or 7/16 nuts
> welded
> to it.
>
> This nut plate assembly is then fiberglass and build up to where it may be
> a
> 1 inch thick and 4 inches wide.
>
> These battery enclosures have a high pressure filter intake air input and
> a
> low pressure exhaust air with acid proof fans and 1/4 PVC acid proof flex
> hoses.
>
> After two years of this installation, The batteries are dust free, clean,
> no conductance to ground.
>
> In a isolated ground system, where the vehicle frame is not AC ground, a
> ground detection system is used as when any Line wire is shorted to the
> non-grounded frame, it will indicated this or will not allow startup of
> any
> AC input.
>
> These units are normally used in explosive proof areas and made by Crouse
> Hinds Company. A cheaper why to do this, is to used a Ground Fault
> Recepticle circuit to a control relay which will shut down a AC contactor
> that provides power to the EV.
>
> In stalling the Ground Fault Recepticle, just install the AC input to the
> FEED screw terminals and the relay circuit to the LOAD screw terminals.
> No connector plug is required.
>
> Also do not connected up a ground wire coming out of the recepticle to the
> frame of the vehicle. Install the recepticle as so it will not be self
> grounding to any metal if using a input or feed ground to it.
>
> A Ground Fault Recepticle does not need a ground wire to it for it to
> work.
> The recepticle reads the voltage differences between the two lines, Hot
> and
> Neutral or L1 and N or call ungrounded lines.
>
> If this voltage difference is greater then what is desired for maximum
> safety, it will open the circuit, open the control relay, which inturn
> open
> A AC contactor or shut down the battery charger.
>
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 12:03 AM
> Subject: Re: battery hold down
>
>
> > thanks all,
> >
> > seems like i need to do a little re design. i must
> > have some metal around here someplace. but metal that
> > is as strong as 3/4 ply is so heavy unless it is
> > aluminum and i can't weld alum. what about
> > fiberglassing the ply and using threaded rod in the
> > existing t-nuts with wing nuts and fender washers on
> > top. won't look as clean as those bolts on mr
> > waylands car but would probably suffice for the year
> > or two i am going to use these batteries. stil
> > thinking on it and will not be able to work on the car
> > again till next week end so if any one has any more
> > ideas i'd appreciate them
> >
> > thanks
> > kevs
> >
> >
> > --- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > At 10:18 PM 5/07/04 -0700, Lee Hart wrote:
> > > >keith vansickle wrote:
> > > > > I drilled the plywood bases <snip>
> > > >
> > > >Reading this, my first concern is that you are
> > > using plywood <snip>
> > >
> > > Which will also possibly (depending on thickness)
> > > allow your batteries to
> > > move relative to each other, If you use flexible
> > > interconnects, not a
> > > problem, but if buss bars, may be. Also the weight
> > > of the strong-enough
> > > plywood is probably more than the weight of my
> > > constructed steel
> > > fabrication. And NASA have has enough embarrasments
> > > from Australians, they
> > > would't want me ;)
> > >
> > > >Next, T-nuts are pretty weak fasteners.
> > >
> > > I don't know what the vehicle design rules state
> > > where you are, Australian
> > > Rules want the batteries to stay put in 20G. My
> > > hold-dows won't keep them
> > > there for that, but if my vehicle is undergoing 20G
> > > I would't survive
> > > anyway. So the hold-downs that I used (two 8mm
> > > threaded rod) should be
> > > adequate for the life of the vehicle, or at least
> > > the batteries.
> > >
> > > >If it were me, I'd make a metal floor for the
> > > battery box, or at least
> > > >locate metal where these bolts need to go. Use
> > > threaded rod with nuts
> > > >and fender washers (large diameter washers) to make
> > > studs sticking up
> > > >from the floor of the battery box. Slide the
> > > batteries down over these
> > > >threaded rods.
> > >
> > > Which is exactly what I am in the process of doing.
> > > When they don't line
> > > up, you can steer the battery over the ends of the
> > > rods, easily. But I'm
> > > also putting an aluminum heating plate onto the
> > > rods, spaced off the base
> > > of the box. Base-spacers-plate-batteries. Simple
> > > when you say it quickly.
> > > But because of the spacers and desire to use some
> > > buss bars, I also instead
> > > of using individual washers on top of the batteries,
> > > a plate across the group.
> > >
> > > >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> > > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > James Massey
> > > Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
> > > '78 Daihatsu 1300kg truck under conversion.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:34 AM -0700 on 10/20/04, Otmar wrote:
At 9:02 AM -0700 10-20-04, David Dymaxion wrote:
Awesome letter, awesome Porsche, and way to vote with your wallet!
Just curious, how long does a fuel cell last?
How long does a fuel cell in a car last?
Just as long as the "Silver Tongued Grant Suckers"tm. and our poor
excuse for a media conspire to keep it going. Eventually the facts
will catch up with them.
Hopefully only a few more years. :-)
Joking aside, nobody knows how long a hydrogen fuel cell would last
in an automotive environment. Certainly, NASA has used them on
multiple vehicles, though I believe all the long-term, deep space
probes run on nuclear cells rather than hydrogen. H2FCs are highly
complex and require some really fancy support hardware. I suppose
with proper care and maintenance, they could last for extremely long
times, but how many Joe Six-Packs take proper care of their ICE cars?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ... I suppose
> with proper care and maintenance, they could last
> for extremely long
> times.
Well, maybe as long as you keep them away from any air
pollution, the PEM H2FC's are ironically very
sensitive to that.
Go Red Sox!!
-Sam
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 21:08:09 -0700 (PDT), Sam Thurber
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > ... I suppose
> > with proper care and maintenance, they could last
> > for extremely long
> > times.
>
> Well, maybe as long as you keep them away from any air
> pollution, the PEM H2FC's are ironically very
> sensitive to that.
The german company http://www.smartfuelcell.de claims a lifetime of more
than 3.000 h. This ist long for vehicle use, but it is short if you look
at the market they sell their current A25 and A50.
Emil
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--- Begin Message ---
My son's Jeep uses two SVR-14 batteries. I normally charge them in parallel
and discharge them in series with no problems. I have been experimenting
with two Rudman Mk2-b Regulators feeding back into a PFC-20 to turn it down
at the end of charge. It reduces the charge time by a third. Series charging
is faster because 20 amps of bulk current is a higher wattage at 24 Volts
than it is at 12 Volts.
You can get by with only two regulators if you put a wire between the
midpoints of the two strings. This is called hooking up the batteries as
buddy pairs. Each regulator protects a 12 volt segment of both strings.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 3:50 PM
Subject: Scooter battery balancer
> I just installed 4 10.5ah 12v batteries in my scooter in series parallel
for 24v. I've only got 2 cycles on them but 2 of them get to 14.5v while the
other 2 are still near 13.8v. I've aborted both cycles manually and charged
each battery seperatly to 14.5v and 200ma. Do people just ignore this on
scooters? I can't find any info on somone installing regulators on their
scooters. Is this an application for a zener and lightbulb (x4)?
>
> thanks,
> Steve
>
--- End Message ---
