EV Digest 3864
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Long range EV's, was (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by Tommy Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lightened Flywheel vs. Lightweight Flywheel?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Scooter battery balancer
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Scooter battery balancer
by cristin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Heater plates, was: Small milestones...
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Long range EV's, was (FAQ?) DC vs. AC
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: "Battery Defender"
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: expert advice needed
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: "Battery Defender"
by Markus Lorch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Scooter battery balancer
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lightened Flywheel vs. Lightweight Flywheel?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Resurrecting a Battery - related to: Battery Defender
by Markus Lorch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Scooter battery balancer
by Markus Lorch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Resurrecting a Battery - related to: Battery Defender
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: battery hold down
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jerry and everyone,
I'm not sure I can keep up with this list, so I'm probably missing some
mails that I should have answered.
jerry dycus wrote:
I'd go the MR2 of those 2. Better aero!! Without
good aero you are not going far no matter what batt
you have at 80 mph!
Good point, though I didn't mean to imply that I do 80+ from point A to
B, but just that I'd want it to be _capable_ of such speeds.
I mentioned the MR2 simply because I know it to be light (and not too
expensive used). I haven't been able to find much information about the
aero dynamics. Of the two, the MR2 is clearly the cheaper and more
practical solution.
Do all the different variants/models of the MR2 have good aerodynamics?
But a T-zero, style would be quite easy to build
from curved flat panels over a bug, other frames and
have lower drag if done right and weigh about 1500lbs
with the 96 volt system below and quite quick.
Perhaps, that it sounds like a much bigger undertaking than simply
converting an existing car.
With the MR2 as a base, an easy way would be to
use a battery pack of 6 to 8 orbitals for 72 or 96vdc
nom with 2 strings of 90 amphr li-ions of about 10%
more resting voltage.
At 96v pack the Orbitals would weight 336lbs and
give you greater punch without too much weight. Then
the 2 Li-ion strings of 90amphrs each will give you
the range. It cuts the numbers of batt regs needed
too. And cheaply charged from a 120vac outlet found
every where especially in front of most 7-11 stores.
That sounds like an interesting "hybrid" :-) I haven't heard of mixing
Li-ion packs with lead-acid batteries. Might be a cheaper alternative
to ultra caps.
Being able to recharge from ordinary outlets is obviously highly disirable.
What is you commute each way?
How much on freeway? Hills?
~33 miles, 98% of that freeway (280 btw San Jose and Palo Alto). Fairly
flat, but a pair of inclines. I practically never need to brake, so
regen is unimportant.
Can you charge at work?
No.
Thanks,
Tommy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Help like this is what makes the EVDL so awesome.
I'm impressed you could machine away 1/2 the weight.
I took off my pressure plate tonight. 16 lbs! The starter ring gear
is bolted to the side of the pressure plate, so removing that weight
is easy.
I may not be able to machine down my flywheel. The pressure plate
bolts go right to the edge of it (remember, no starter gear on it's
perimeter), plus it has a centering lip for the pressure plate, so no
machining the perimeter. Spec is it can only be thinned to 8.5 mm, it
looks close to that now, I'll have to micrometer it and see. John did
you thin your flywheels beyond spec? Is the limit having enough
threads for bolt purchase? Or is it strength? Or is it enough mass to
keep the ICE turning smoothly?
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello David and All,
>
> David Dymaxion wrote:
>
> > I was about to order a lightweight alumimum flywheel, when I saw
> you
> > can get "lightweight billet steel" flywheels that are about the
> same
> > weight.
>
> A lightened flywheel in an EV using a tranny, is an excellent idea.
> Gas cars need weight
> in the flywheel for several reasons...to keep the reciprocating
> action going, to smooth
> out vibration, and to help launch the car when ICE torque is
> miserably low at near idle
> speeds. Lighter flywheels in a gas engined car help the ICE spin up
> faster, but the
> negatives of a rougher running engine and loss of take-off torque
> have to be considered.
> In an EV, there is no reason at all, to have a heavy flywheel over
> a light one....there is
> no reciprocating action to keep going, there is no vibration to
> speak of, and there is
> abundant torque at zero rpm. The only function of the flywheel in
> an EV, is to hold the
> clutch.
>
> >
> > I realized I don't know this answer and maybe could save myself
> some
> > $$: How much lighter can I have the stock flywheel machined? The
> > lightweight flywheels are expensive and about 40% lighter than
> stock.
> > How much can I have shaved off the stock flywheel? Thanks in
> advance.
>
> Blue Meanie's flywheel was 23 lbs. stock. Since an EV doesn't need
> the large diameter to
> support a ring gear for a starter motor to mesh with, you can
> machine-off a good deal of
> the overall diameter. You can also thin-down the thickness of the
> outer perimeter of the
> flywheel, too, to save weight, just keep it thick enough so the
> perimeter bolts of the
> pressure plate have enough meat to fully thread into. Blue Meanie's
> flywheel was shaved
> down in diameter, outer perimeter thickness, and thus, weight. The
> flywheel diameter is
> now the same as the pressure plate, so it went from about 14 inches
> to about 9 inches or
> so. The flywheel now weighs just 12.5 lbs.
>
> A lightened steel flywheel is safe and still does its job of
> facilitating the clutch
> system, but it really makes a BIG difference in the way the
> electric motor can near
> instantly spin-up from rest! There is a huge difference in
> rotational mass and the effort
> to get it moving, when you go from trying to spin-up a 14 inch, 23
> lb. chunk of steel, to
> spinning-up a 9 inch 12.5 lb. chunk of steel.
>
> Every EV conversion I've ever done, has used a lightened flywheel.
> Not doing so, simply
> results in wasted power, both in terms of rotational mass to
> overcome, and in the extra
> weight the EV has to pack around. Most machine shops can reduce
> your flywheel's size and
> weight, for about $50....it's way cheaper than an aluminum
> flywheel.
=====
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Scooter batteries are reasonable if you buy from a good distributor. We
just got 10 10.5ah for 200 dollars including shipping. These are
Powersonic. I am wrecking batteries now on my scooter. Very bad. These
are 17 ah and not 20 bucks each. Anybody have some old mark one rudman(12v)
they'd like to sell? I could use 8. Four for me and four for my friend
Steve.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Weisenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 8:06 PM
Subject: RE: Scooter battery balancer
> Shawn you obviously never bought scooter batteries.
> Last set cost me $120.00 for a set of 3.
> Steve I am afraid most Scooter riders are Kids and
> they
> just plug and go without paying attention to the
> charge.
> And when they don't go they go and have the parents
> buy new ones. At least that has been my experience
> with then.
>
> --- Shawn Waggoner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In my opinion, I don't think most folks are that
> > concerned over their
> > scooter batteries. Not to say they won't extend the
> > life drastically by
> > taking better care of them, but at $10-11 for a new
> > battery, they just
> > replace them. Even a simple regulator, if suppose
> > say something $5 to 7
> > could be had, would be about the cost of the
> > batteries themselves.
> > Spending $100+ for a battery warrants the additional
> > cost for regs.
> >
> > Shawn
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 18:51
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Scooter battery balancer
> >
> > I just installed 4 10.5ah 12v batteries in my
> > scooter in series parallel
> > for 24v. I've only got 2 cycles on them but 2 of
> > them get to 14.5v while
> > the other 2 are still near 13.8v. I've aborted both
> > cycles manually and
> > charged each battery seperatly to 14.5v and 200ma.
> > Do people just ignore
> > this on scooters? I can't find any info on somone
> > installing regulators
> > on their scooters. Is this an application for a
> > zener and lightbulb
> > (x4)?
> >
> > thanks,
> > Steve
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just bought 4 Rudman regs to prevent premature battery death on my
evt-168.
Now I'm just trying to find a place to mount them where they can:
stay dry
get some air (doing the cooling fan load trick)
not have too much wire between them and the batteries
be seen (or at least route some fiber optic from the LEDs to some
place I can see them)
-C
On Oct 20, 2004, at 9:49 PM, Joe Smalley wrote:
My son's Jeep uses two SVR-14 batteries. I normally charge them in
parallel
and discharge them in series with no problems. I have been
experimenting
with two Rudman Mk2-b Regulators feeding back into a PFC-20 to turn it
down
at the end of charge. It reduces the charge time by a third. Series
charging
is faster because 20 amps of bulk current is a higher wattage at 24
Volts
than it is at 12 Volts.
You can get by with only two regulators if you put a wire between the
midpoints of the two strings. This is called hooking up the batteries
as
buddy pairs. Each regulator protects a 12 volt segment of both strings.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 3:50 PM
Subject: Scooter battery balancer
I just installed 4 10.5ah 12v batteries in my scooter in series
parallel
for 24v. I've only got 2 cycles on them but 2 of them get to 14.5v
while the
other 2 are still near 13.8v. I've aborted both cycles manually and
charged
each battery seperatly to 14.5v and 200ma. Do people just ignore this
on
scooters? I can't find any info on somone installing regulators on
their
scooters. Is this an application for a zener and lightbulb (x4)?
thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:21 AM 20/10/04 -0600, you wrote:
Good work, James! I'm in the process of designing my battery box now. What
did you use for heater plates? Thanks.
Bill Dennis
Hi Bill and all
I used aluminium plates with power resistors mounted on them (aluminium
clad bolt-down types). My batteries are in groups of three or four,
depending on the section of the battery box that they are in. I have taken
a punt and am trying heat recovery with my Rudman regs - haven't got as far
as having them going, so I can't report how well that works yet. Each
regulator has been reconfigured to have two bypass resistors, and switch
between them depending on the thermistor (already present on-board, moved
to be on the heating plates). One set of resistors is on the battery heater
plates, the other set on an external-finned heatsink. Additionally there is
a set of resistors powered from the mains, although I haven't implemented
the control of them yet, although I intend to use the regulator thermistor
signal, interfaced out via optocouplers.
To mount the batteries and heater plates so as they are well supported but
up inside the insulation, I have used 8mm threaded rod bolted through the
bottom of the box, lined up with the holes through the side-by-side
Orbitals. Spacers around 30mm (1 1/4") long space up the heater plates from
the box bottom. The batteries go next, then another aluminium plate on top
of the batteries to tie the tops together.
I intend putting thin rubber washers (0.3mm) between the aluminium and the
steel in case of acid leakage (if acid bridges the steel/aluminium join, I
would expect serious corrosion). My boxes are steel. Once completed I will
paint them, then use polystyrene as insulation, line that with a plastic
sheet that will stick with silicon sealer to keep any acid mist under
control. The top plates have been coated by shrinking heatshrink tubing
over them, I'll paint the exposed aluminium with epoxy paint on final
assembly. (Heatshrink was a bargain - 50 foot roll of 4" heatshrink for 5
dollars at an industrial junk dealer - the yellow looks the part against
the blue battery tops).
Hope this gives you some ideas, it seems to be a good way to mount
Orbitals, via the through holes. If you are using wet cell batteries, It
could still work - just putting the bolts into the between-battery spaces,
but putting a nut on top of the heating plates so that they are rigidly
held. Mixing steel and Aluminium in the presence of battery acid seems to
be bad practice from first principles, but there are a lot of ways to
minimise the corrosion. I believe one EVDL lister has an inch of bicarb in
the bottom of his boxes - I'm too lazy to search the archives for
reference, if those who have done this are reading this, it would be good
to hear what their installation is like.
Regards
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
Looking forward to another visit tomorrow to the industrial junk dealer
that the heatshrink came from (two hour journey).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tommy and All,
--- Tommy Thorn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Jerry and everyone,
>
> I'm not sure I can keep up with this list, so I'm
> probably missing some
> mails that I should have answered.
It can be a lot but just 1 yr of following the
list will give you a good education in EV's that you
should know if building, driving one.
Another way is when nothing else is happening, go
to the archives and read a yrs worth if you can, will
give you a nice knowledge base on EV's to work from.
>
> jerry dycus wrote:
>
> > I'd go the MR2 of those 2. Better aero!!
> Without
> >good aero you are not going far no matter what batt
> >you have at 80 mph!
> >
> >
> Good point, though I didn't mean to imply that I do
> 80+ from point A to
> B, but just that I'd want it to be _capable_ of such
> speeds.
Cool, as it will increase your range by driving
slower.
The cheapest, best way to get range is lowering
drag as it cuts battery, drive size, thus costs for
the same performance.
So do the aero mods nessasary along with low drag
tires, syn oil in the trans, diff, ect and you'll be
pleased with the outcome.
If done right, you could get 150 mile range at 55
mph!
>
> I mentioned the MR2 simply because I know it to be
> light (and not too
> expensive used). I haven't been able to find much
> information about the
> aero dynamics. Of the two, the MR2 is clearly the
> cheaper and more
> practical solution.
The earlier ones were lighter and all would need
mods for better aero. Don't get a convertble as their
aero is poor unless you want to build, buy a hard top
for it!
>
> Do all the different variants/models of the MR2 have
> good aerodynamics?
Fair but can be made better. They do have low
CDArea to start with which helps. I'm not that
familiar with them so others might chip in on aero,
weights of various models, yrs.
>
> > But a T-zero, style would be quite easy to
> build
> >from curved flat panels over a bug, other frames
> and
> >have lower drag if done right and weigh about
> 1500lbs
> >with the 96 volt system below and quite quick.
> >
> >
> Perhaps, that it sounds like a much bigger
> undertaking than simply
> converting an existing car.
Yes, it is as I found out but much better
performance can make it worth it. I get under
100wthr/mile on my 1,000lb EV.
>
> > With the MR2 as a base, an easy way would be
> to
> >use a battery pack of 6 to 8 orbitals for 72 or
> 96vdc
> >nom with 2 strings of 90 amphr li-ions of about 10%
> >more resting voltage.
> > At 96v pack the Orbitals would weight 336lbs
> and
> >give you greater punch without too much weight.
> Then
> >the 2 Li-ion strings of 90amphrs each will give you
> >the range. It cuts the numbers of batt regs needed
> >too. And cheaply charged from a 120vac outlet found
> >every where especially in front of most 7-11
> stores.
> >
> >
> That sounds like an interesting "hybrid" :-) I
> haven't heard of mixing
> Li-ion packs with lead-acid batteries. Might be a
> cheaper alternative
> to ultra caps.
A much better one as 250 lbs of ultra caps peter
out after a couple seconds without expensive
electronics so you don't have power for a second
acceleration if needed or hills, mountains, traffic.
Much less power just when you need it.
Once the ultra caps discharge if on any slight
hill, they can't recharge as the li-ions can't even
keep up with the load much less recharge the caps!!!
Plus the Orbitals give you another usable 30-35
amphrs vs 1 or 2 usable amphrs for the ultra caps with
only 1/3 more weight at 1/20-1/40th the costs.
By buddy pairing the li-ions, the numbers of BMS
units you need go way down though you'll need regs for
the orbitals but they are a lot cheaper than BMS's for
li-ions.
This system will cost under 1/2 of a ultra
cap-li-ion-AC system and beat the pants off it in
real world conditions.
For the money saved,$10k+, you could do solar
and/or wind power for your house, EV!!!
Your choice.
>
> Being able to recharge from ordinary outlets is
> obviously highly desirable.
Yes. This comes from being a lighter EV to begin
with as they don't need as much batt weight, costs, to
get the range. Thus you can charge about 15 miles/hr
from an 120vac outlet.
This also allows the Orbitals to recharge from
the li-ions as they can handle the low power regularly
needed to drive and still have power to recharge the
Orbitals if you have a light, low drag EV. I'd bet the
Orbitals would live 7-8 yrs in this kind of service.
I wonder what the Li-ions put out without
lowering their eff, overheating? I've heard 50 amps
for the 90amphr ones per string but not sure.
If that's true then 100 amps at 100 volt gives
you 10kw, about 13hp cont which should give you about
75 mph on the flat without using the Orbitals, saving
them for long hills, acceleration and protecting the
li-ions at the end of your range.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
>
> > What is you commute each way?
> > How much on freeway? Hills?
> >
> >
> ~33 miles, 98% of that freeway (280 btw San Jose and
> Palo Alto). Fairly
> flat, but a pair of inclines. I practically never
> need to brake, so
> regen is unimportant.
>
> > Can you charge at work?
> >
> >
> No.
>
> Thanks,
> Tommy
>
>
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I now have a 24 volt version of the "Battery Defender" (see
http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ACC-2404S ). I'm trying it out
for use with my lawn mower, which uses two 17 Ahr 12-volt sealed
lead-acid batteries. The charger case is marked as a Soneil model 2404S.
Initial tests show that on a fully charged battery, it will float the
battery at 28 volts (with the green "done" light on).
After mowing a bit, the pack voltage was 25.something volts no-load.
When the charger was connected it went to 26 volts and quickly rose
(within 90 seconds) to 27 volts and then continued to rise more slowly
over time. After 45 minutes it was at 28.87 volts, still showing the
yellow "charging" light. Ten minutes later I checked again and the green
"done" light was on and the voltage had dropped to 27.89 volts. Over the
next 4 hours the voltage slowly rose to 27.99 volts and didn't go up any
more. The above was done in 60 degree temperatures.
So, based on just voltage measurements it appears to go through 3 phases
in the charge cycle. Someday I hope to repeat the test with an e-meter
to log more precise data and capture what the peak voltage at the end of
the bulk phase really is.
If these voltage thresholds are reasonable, I will go ahead and use it
as the regular charger for the mower.
Markus L wrote:
yes, you are right it is the Soneil charger. I've used three of these
to charge my 36V Elec-trak pack for the last couple of months.
You should be aware of the following details:
- the soneil charger comes with a high finish volt setting
(I think it is 14.7V)
i.e. it charges at 3A to something like 14.0V, then tapers back the
amperage gradually until it reaches 14.7V, after which it
turns on the green light and switches to float at 13.6V
- the finish voltage of 14.7 is too high for SLA batteries
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would get an Alltrax. I have the AXE-4844 on my motorcycle which replaced
aCurtis 1204. In my opinion, Alltrax's are much better then the Curtii in
both performance and configurability. Not sure if you can get one in the UK
easily, but it would definitely be worth the trouble. My alltrax has no
problem pushing me (250lbs) plus the steel framed motorcycle with 200lbs of
batteries up to 60+ mph with no transmission. I never have any problems
keeping up with traffic. The Curtis was awful with the same setup. It was
only a 275amp model, but it would take forever to ramp up to that 275 amps.
The Alltrax gives me full power right away.
damon
From: richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: expert advice needed
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 23:56:30 +0100 (BST)
hi guys
i'm making progress with my etek powered ebike
i now am at the expensive "buying controller stage"
i need some help choosing which curtis controller to buy
the system is 48v 350A max
which model do you all think is most suitable ?
regards
richard
---------------------------------
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
_________________________________________________________________
On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to
get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim,
if you look at soneil.com you can find a charging curve with the
description of the stages. I had adjusted my chargers to only charge to
14.1V (per 12V unit) as I have gel batteries that don't like the
standard 14.7 it comes with.
After using the chargers for half a year now I am reasonably happy,
(I even drove over one by accident with the rear wheel and the case
held up) BUT I think they don't take the humidity here in Virginia
too well. One of my three failed right away and was replace and now a
second one doesn't work reliably. I have gotten the offer from
Batterymart to send all of them back. I think I will trade up to
the larger one.
One thing I about the charging procedure I noticed that I didn't like:
The elec-trak batteries are pretty large. Once they get older the finish
voltage drops. Unless you adjust the chargers they will keep charging
till their high finish voltage but will never reach it. Thankfully the
3A constant current that these little chargers provide is (I think)
easily dissipated by the chargers. I had one of my 12V 90Ah batteries
fail and the charger could not always get it above 13V so it never
finished charging... the battery got reasonably warm but not hot.
Markus
Jim Coate wrote:
I now have a 24 volt version of the "Battery Defender" (see
http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=ACC-2404S ). I'm trying it out
for use with my lawn mower, which uses two 17 Ahr 12-volt sealed
lead-acid batteries. The charger case is marked as a Soneil model 2404S.
Initial tests show that on a fully charged battery, it will float the
battery at 28 volts (with the green "done" light on).
After mowing a bit, the pack voltage was 25.something volts no-load.
When the charger was connected it went to 26 volts and quickly rose
(within 90 seconds) to 27 volts and then continued to rise more slowly
over time. After 45 minutes it was at 28.87 volts, still showing the
yellow "charging" light. Ten minutes later I checked again and the green
"done" light was on and the voltage had dropped to 27.89 volts. Over the
next 4 hours the voltage slowly rose to 27.99 volts and didn't go up any
more. The above was done in 60 degree temperatures.
So, based on just voltage measurements it appears to go through 3 phases
in the charge cycle. Someday I hope to repeat the test with an e-meter
to log more precise data and capture what the peak voltage at the end of
the bulk phase really is.
If these voltage thresholds are reasonable, I will go ahead and use it
as the regular charger for the mower.
Markus L wrote:
yes, you are right it is the Soneil charger. I've used three of these
to charge my 36V Elec-trak pack for the last couple of months.
You should be aware of the following details:
- the soneil charger comes with a high finish volt setting (I think
it is 14.7V)
i.e. it charges at 3A to something like 14.0V, then tapers back the
amperage gradually until it reaches 14.7V, after which it turns on
the green light and switches to float at 13.6V
- the finish voltage of 14.7 is too high for SLA batteries
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it were me, and I just had 4 lead acid batteries to charge, I'd get 4 of
the Soneil chargers. The cost is around the same as the regs, and each
battery will get exactly the charge it needs everytime.
From: cristin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Scooter battery balancer
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 00:02:03 -0700
I just bought 4 Rudman regs to prevent premature battery death on my
evt-168.
Now I'm just trying to find a place to mount them where they can:
stay dry
get some air (doing the cooling fan load trick)
not have too much wire between them and the batteries
be seen (or at least route some fiber optic from the LEDs to some place I
can see them)
-C
On Oct 20, 2004, at 9:49 PM, Joe Smalley wrote:
My son's Jeep uses two SVR-14 batteries. I normally charge them in
parallel
and discharge them in series with no problems. I have been experimenting
with two Rudman Mk2-b Regulators feeding back into a PFC-20 to turn it
down
at the end of charge. It reduces the charge time by a third. Series
charging
is faster because 20 amps of bulk current is a higher wattage at 24 Volts
than it is at 12 Volts.
You can get by with only two regulators if you put a wire between the
midpoints of the two strings. This is called hooking up the batteries as
buddy pairs. Each regulator protects a 12 volt segment of both strings.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 3:50 PM
Subject: Scooter battery balancer
I just installed 4 10.5ah 12v batteries in my scooter in series parallel
for 24v. I've only got 2 cycles on them but 2 of them get to 14.5v while
the
other 2 are still near 13.8v. I've aborted both cycles manually and
charged
each battery seperatly to 14.5v and 200ma. Do people just ignore this on
scooters? I can't find any info on somone installing regulators on their
scooters. Is this an application for a zener and lightbulb (x4)?
thanks,
Steve
_________________________________________________________________
Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter tools and
more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David and All,
David Dymaxion wrote:
> Help like this is what makes the EVDL so awesome.
>
> I'm impressed you could machine away 1/2 the weight.
Yeah, it's a nice reduction in unwanted rotational mass.
> John did you thin your flywheels beyond spec? Is the limit having enough
> threads for bolt purchase? Or is it strength? Or is it enough mass to
> keep the ICE turning smoothly?
Having worked with metal experts over the years, here' my take on these questions:
(1) Is the limit having enough threads for bolt purchase?
When sizing metal thickness and bolts to be threaded into that metal, the rule of
thumb is
the metal cannot be thinner than the diameter of the bolt if you want to be able to
fully
tighten and torque-down that bolt. If you have a 1/4 - 20 bolt, you want the metal to
be
at least 1/4 inch thick. In the case of Meanie's flywheel and the pressure plate
perimeter
bolts, we are way beyond spec there, as the the bolts are 6mm but the metal is still ~
3/4
inch thick.
(2) Or is it strength?
That's very important. Yes, you don't want to thin it down so that you can warp the
outer
perimeter from tightening any bolts. You also need it to stay intact under high revs,
so
this all has to be considered. I used a machine shop that's been doing flywheel
lightening
and balancing for decades, a shop that caters to hot rodders and 1/4 mile drag dudes. I
also had them balance the flywheel after it had been chopped down.
(3) Or is it enough mass to keep the ICE turning smoothly?
Ahhh...this is the primary reason why the flywheel is as thick as it is, and, is as
large
in diameter as is practical. It's common that a small four cylinder engine will have a
heavier flywheel than a smoother running six cylinder, and many times, it's even
heavier
than a V8's flywheel! Some four banger flywheels tip the scales at over 30 lbs.! The
heavy
mass makes an otherwise rough running engine smooth out considerably. Higher
compression
engines often have heavier flywheels, too, to help the reciprocating action take place.
In a nut shell, if one is looking to shave down their vehicle's flywheel, take it to a
shop well versed in such things. Make sure to tell them in detail, that it's going in
an
electric car where vibration damping, momentum effect (for help in the reciprocation
area), stored inertia (for help with launching from rest), and starter ring gear
placement, are all not needed. Tell them that the 'only' reason for the flywheel, is to
accommodate the clutch system. Any quality racer's machine shop will know what to do,
and
how to do it while keeping all safety aspects in tact. I've had the flywheel mods done
to
too many conversions to list, and have never had a problem with any of the flywheels,
but,
I've always used racer's type machine shops, shops well versed in high rpm safety and
reliability.
Note; you'll have trouble getting them to accept that you have an 'engine' that doesn't
need help from a flywheel's stored inertia to launch the vehicle, and they'll argue
that
your EV will have sluggish take-off power without it....that's when you educate them
about
your electric motor's effortless ability to make 250-300 ft. lbs. at zero rpm!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While I am talking about my chargers I was curious if anybody could
confirm from the following that one of my 12V 90Ah Deka Unigy batteries
(Sealed, Valve regulated) is dead:
The battery is in a string of 3 batts in my elec-trak and it started to
depleed (down to below 10.5V) very quickly while the other two batts
where still holding above 12V under load.
I also noticed that the battery would not always reach the finish
voltage of 14.1V with a 3A charger but rather get stuck around 12.5-13V
and get reasonably warm (not hot, no gassing). A few times I was able to
charge it up to 14.1V and then float at 13.8 but most of the times I
wasn't. I took the battery out and replaced it with another used one.
I had it sit for a while and the voltage would plummet real quick to
something around 11V ... so I assumed that I may have a reversed cell
(especially as some cells seemed to heat up more than others during
charging). So I discharged it with a 1 Ohm resistor all teh way down to
1V and then hooked up my soneil 3A charger to get it back up. The
charger went into desulfation/pulse mode and the voltage rose slowly,
very slowly. After 1 day of pulsing I hooked up two more of these
chargers in parallel and all three of them pulsed teh battery up to 8.5V
where they started their constant current charge.. the voltage kept
rising to about 12.5V but when I checked the next morning the voltage
was back town to 9V ... the battery was warm. I never got the battery to
charge byond 10.5V with the chargers connected anymore. If I only
connect one charger the voltage drops to 8V and the charger starts
pulsing again.
The only way I could explain this behavior to myself was that the
battery has an internal short that develops when it worms up, so once
the three chargers got it above a certain temperature the battery
shorted and the voltage dropped. Is this a reasonable assumption?
It would mean that the battery is dead, right?
Should I try to open the vents to see how much water is in there?
Could that help or is it not worth the effort?
Thanks for any feedback.
Markus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
> If it were me, and I just had 4 lead acid batteries to charge, I'd
get >4 of the Soneil chargers. The cost is around the same as the regs,
and >each battery will get exactly the charge it needs everytime.
I agree with damon, but was that idea mentioned about a zener diode and
a light bulb.... are there (affordable) zener diodes that could shunt a
real charging current, i.e. 25A?
In my elec-trak I don't worry about balancing my 3 batteries 100% but I
would like to prevent the internal charger (about 25A) from cooking my
SLA batteries.
I.e., would it be possible to use a zener and a high wattage resistor to
limit the charge current to my batteries once the batteries reach
13.8-14V? It seems to me that in the worst case I have do dissipate
15V*25A per battery....thats 375Watt .. the largest zeners I find go up
to 50W and they seem to be expensive.
I guess it would be easier to have a "voltage detector" that shuts off
the unregulated charger and turns on my three 12V 3A "smart" chargers
once the first battery comes up to say 13.5V or so.
Markus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Crack it open, but I think it's toast. I had some seriously dead AGM
batteries I got for free that had this problem. Basic issue seemed to be
they were suplhated to the point where they would just be space heaters
instead of batteries to be charged.
The heat would indicate that it's probably dry as bone. Try putting some
water in and see what happens.
What's the worst that could happen?
Chris
Markus Lorch wrote:
While I am talking about my chargers I was curious if anybody could
confirm from the following that one of my 12V 90Ah Deka Unigy batteries
(Sealed, Valve regulated) is dead:
The battery is in a string of 3 batts in my elec-trak and it started to
depleed (down to below 10.5V) very quickly while the other two batts
where still holding above 12V under load.
I also noticed that the battery would not always reach the finish
voltage of 14.1V with a 3A charger but rather get stuck around 12.5-13V
and get reasonably warm (not hot, no gassing). A few times I was able to
charge it up to 14.1V and then float at 13.8 but most of the times I
wasn't. I took the battery out and replaced it with another used one.
I had it sit for a while and the voltage would plummet real quick to
something around 11V ... so I assumed that I may have a reversed cell
(especially as some cells seemed to heat up more than others during
charging). So I discharged it with a 1 Ohm resistor all teh way down to
1V and then hooked up my soneil 3A charger to get it back up. The
charger went into desulfation/pulse mode and the voltage rose slowly,
very slowly. After 1 day of pulsing I hooked up two more of these
chargers in parallel and all three of them pulsed teh battery up to 8.5V
where they started their constant current charge.. the voltage kept
rising to about 12.5V but when I checked the next morning the voltage
was back town to 9V ... the battery was warm. I never got the battery to
charge byond 10.5V with the chargers connected anymore. If I only
connect one charger the voltage drops to 8V and the charger starts
pulsing again.
The only way I could explain this behavior to myself was that the
battery has an internal short that develops when it worms up, so once
the three chargers got it above a certain temperature the battery
shorted and the voltage dropped. Is this a reasonable assumption?
It would mean that the battery is dead, right?
Should I try to open the vents to see how much water is in there?
Could that help or is it not worth the effort?
Thanks for any feedback.
Markus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, that's quite involved from my erector set 1.5" angle bolt together
battery frames. What voltage are you running to see arcing? I'm at 120Vdc
with a 20A breaker center tapped to the frame similar to the Canadian
standards I saw when working with battery backup Magnetic Bearing natural
gas installations. There is a sonalert with resistor on a diode bridge
across the 30A breaker so if a terminal or cable rubs through somewhere, you
get a Beeeeep but can still keep driving until you get home. The battery
voltage from the uP shows approximetely where (which battery) the short to
ground is so it can be quickly fixed. Thus the maximum voltage with respect
to ground ia 1/2 pack or 60V at the ends, no weird floating HV problems and
also allowes an emergency tap to get home if the DC-DC converter fails, my
favorite feature, as this has been used a couple times in the last 30 years.
Mark www.solectrol.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 2:16 PM
Subject: RE: battery hold down
> Roland, a couple of questions:
>
> 1. where did you get the "acid proof" fans
>
> 2. what is the make of the "acid proof" rubber coating?
>
>
> Thanks
> Don
>
>
>
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: July 6, 2004 8:19 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: battery hold down
>
> The best design I found for battery hold downs, is the battery enclosure
> structure itself. My old battery racks or boxes were made out of metal
and
> aluminum. This was NOT GOOD, THERE IS TOO MUCH CONDUCTANCE FROM THE
> BATTERY CASES TO THE METAL RACKS OR CONTAINERS.
>
> No matter how much you clean the batteries with all the battery cleaning
> solutions, I can still measure a voltage leak from the battery case to the
> frame.
>
> I place a rubber mat for the batteries to set on, but I found that the
metal
> which was acid proof epoxy painted, was corroding the metal.
>
> With the lights out, while charging, I could see some arking between the
> battery cases and frame. AGAIN NOT GOOD.
>
> So on my next redesign and modifications of the EV System, I made battery
> boxes enclosures that would ISOLATED the batteries from any metal frames
or
> the frame of the car by using 1/4 to 1/2 thick fiberglass material.
>
> Also all AC inputs and Battery charger components are also ISOLATED in a
> fiberglass containers.
>
> The fiberglass enclosures are coated with that same type of epoxy coating
> that is applied to bath tubs and showers which you can pick up as a kit at
> any home improvement center.
>
> The size of these containers is the size of the battery dim. plus allowing
> for a 1/4 to 5/15 inch space around each battery.
>
> Before I set the batteries in these containers, I place about 1 inch
thick
> bed of baking soda in the bottom for the batteries to set on.
>
> To hold down the batteries, I used aluminum TEE-ANGLE which is 2 inch wide
> by 2 inch stub that goes down between the batteries.
>
> THIS T-BAR IF FIRST COATED WITH THAT RUBBER TOOL DIP STUFF WHICH IS ACID
> PROOF. or
>
> Take it to the place where they apply coatings to pickup beds. They can
> apply it in a smooth coating.
>
> The ends of the T-BAR's have a welded on flange that butts against the
sides
> of the battery boxes. Make this flange long, so it will go all the way
up,
> In my case, just about to the fiberglass hinge covers, which are also seal
> down with double groove gaskets.
>
> The T-Bar flanges are bolted through with a 3/8 or 7/16 stainless bolt in
to
> a nut plate which is mounted on the outside of the box. The long flange
on
> the T-Bar allows for different battery sizes.
>
> The nut plate that is mounted on the outside of the box, is a long flat
> steel bar stock of 3/16 thick by 2 inches wide with 3/8 or 7/16 nuts
welded
> to it.
>
> This nut plate assembly is then fiberglass and build up to where it may be
a
> 1 inch thick and 4 inches wide.
>
> These battery enclosures have a high pressure filter intake air input and
a
> low pressure exhaust air with acid proof fans and 1/4 PVC acid proof flex
> hoses.
>
> After two years of this installation, The batteries are dust free, clean,
> no conductance to ground.
>
> In a isolated ground system, where the vehicle frame is not AC ground, a
> ground detection system is used as when any Line wire is shorted to the
> non-grounded frame, it will indicated this or will not allow startup of
any
> AC input.
>
> These units are normally used in explosive proof areas and made by Crouse
> Hinds Company. A cheaper why to do this, is to used a Ground Fault
> Recepticle circuit to a control relay which will shut down a AC contactor
> that provides power to the EV.
>
> In stalling the Ground Fault Recepticle, just install the AC input to the
> FEED screw terminals and the relay circuit to the LOAD screw terminals.
> No connector plug is required.
>
> Also do not connected up a ground wire coming out of the recepticle to the
> frame of the vehicle. Install the recepticle as so it will not be self
> grounding to any metal if using a input or feed ground to it.
>
> A Ground Fault Recepticle does not need a ground wire to it for it to
work.
> The recepticle reads the voltage differences between the two lines, Hot
and
> Neutral or L1 and N or call ungrounded lines.
>
> If this voltage difference is greater then what is desired for maximum
> safety, it will open the circuit, open the control relay, which inturn
open
> A AC contactor or shut down the battery charger.
>
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 12:03 AM
> Subject: Re: battery hold down
>
>
> > thanks all,
> >
> > seems like i need to do a little re design. i must
> > have some metal around here someplace. but metal that
> > is as strong as 3/4 ply is so heavy unless it is
> > aluminum and i can't weld alum. what about
> > fiberglassing the ply and using threaded rod in the
> > existing t-nuts with wing nuts and fender washers on
> > top. won't look as clean as those bolts on mr
> > waylands car but would probably suffice for the year
> > or two i am going to use these batteries. stil
> > thinking on it and will not be able to work on the car
> > again till next week end so if any one has any more
> > ideas i'd appreciate them
> >
> > thanks
> > kevs
> >
> >
> > --- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > At 10:18 PM 5/07/04 -0700, Lee Hart wrote:
> > > >keith vansickle wrote:
> > > > > I drilled the plywood bases <snip>
> > > >
> > > >Reading this, my first concern is that you are
> > > using plywood <snip>
> > >
> > > Which will also possibly (depending on thickness)
> > > allow your batteries to
> > > move relative to each other, If you use flexible
> > > interconnects, not a
> > > problem, but if buss bars, may be. Also the weight
> > > of the strong-enough
> > > plywood is probably more than the weight of my
> > > constructed steel
> > > fabrication. And NASA have has enough embarrasments
> > > from Australians, they
> > > would't want me ;)
> > >
> > > >Next, T-nuts are pretty weak fasteners.
> > >
> > > I don't know what the vehicle design rules state
> > > where you are, Australian
> > > Rules want the batteries to stay put in 20G. My
> > > hold-dows won't keep them
> > > there for that, but if my vehicle is undergoing 20G
> > > I would't survive
> > > anyway. So the hold-downs that I used (two 8mm
> > > threaded rod) should be
> > > adequate for the life of the vehicle, or at least
> > > the batteries.
> > >
> > > >If it were me, I'd make a metal floor for the
> > > battery box, or at least
> > > >locate metal where these bolts need to go. Use
> > > threaded rod with nuts
> > > >and fender washers (large diameter washers) to make
> > > studs sticking up
> > > >from the floor of the battery box. Slide the
> > > batteries down over these
> > > >threaded rods.
> > >
> > > Which is exactly what I am in the process of doing.
> > > When they don't line
> > > up, you can steer the battery over the ends of the
> > > rods, easily. But I'm
> > > also putting an aluminum heating plate onto the
> > > rods, spaced off the base
> > > of the box. Base-spacers-plate-batteries. Simple
> > > when you say it quickly.
> > > But because of the spacers and desire to use some
> > > buss bars, I also instead
> > > of using individual washers on top of the batteries,
> > > a plate across the group.
> > >
> > > >Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> > > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > James Massey
> > > Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
> > > '78 Daihatsu 1300kg truck under conversion.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
