EV Digest 3872
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) 93 EVcourt for sale
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: mooncar on NiCads
by Roger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Hawker Batteries and Maximum Current
by George <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: mooncar on NiCads
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: What tricks have you implemented to reduce drag? Need ideas.
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) re: hydrogen fuel
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Hawker Batteries and Maximum Current
by "Brown, Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare
me.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Manual was Re: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying
to scare me.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Antique battery manual
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all:
I have listed my 93 EVcourt for sale on ebay.
Interested parties should surf over there or contact
me to discuss its pending sale. Ebay auction number
2496865680 or web page at
www.austinev.org/evalbum/186.html
Jim Donovan
________________________________________________________________
Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand.
Now includes pop-up blocker!
Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, very true, you can't fight the laws of physics. The University of
Washington study showed similar inefficiency numbers as well as the
MotorTrends Issue (Aug 04' I think). At the EDTA show (Orlando Sept) people
were questioning the original premis of cost effective hydrogen with the
inherent inefficiencies. <The government likes it because it can be easily
taxed and the oil companies since it can be metered through them.> Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:41 PM
Subject: OT: Re: Hydrogen fuel
> At 08:42 PM 10/25/2004, you wrote:
>
> >I have an (automotive) colleague that sees pure electric as bunkum and
> >hydrogen (hybrids) as the only answer.
> >
> >I lack the experience to debunk it? Anyone care to share a link?
>
> Hydrogen is an extremely clever scam. When you step back and ask,
> "Where will the hydrogen come from?" the house of cards falls apart.
>
> You will get hydrogen from fossil fuels. The most economic way to
> get hydrogen is to catalyze natural gas. When you do this, you throw away
> 50% of the fuel value. If you were to put that hydrogen into a fuel-cell
> car, it would only go 50% the distance (at best) that a hybrid car would,
> if fueled from the natural gas directly. The oil company loves it. They
get
> to sell twice as much per mile driven. It is also twice as much CO2 per
> mile driven. (G.W. = Global Warming)
>
> If you choose to make hydrogen for your fuel cell car from
> electricity, an EV using that electricity directly will go at least twice
> as far.
>
> Many of the foaming advocates of hydrogen say, "But we can figure
> out a way to make hydrogen more efficiently if we hurl big research
dollars
> at the problem." Unfortunately, there are only so many hydrogen atoms in
> each methane molecule. Also, until we unlock the secret of photosynthesis,
> there will be no efficient way to make hydrogen. Batteries will always be
> more efficient at storing electricity than hydrogen gas.
>
> Think of all the money we have spent on fusion power and it will
> give you just a peek of how much we would have to spend on electrolysis to
> make it more efficient. There are many many other areas in alternative
> fuels that will reap greater rewards on a faster timetable for far less
> money. (Like biodiesel) Of course, the oil companies really wouldn't like
> that, would they.
>
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Subject:
Re: mooncar on NiCads
From:
"Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Mon, 25 Oct 2004 22:47:52 -0700
To:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
How many watts are required to push this vehicle at terminal velocity?
36ahr was just a high guess.
Each day we ran the moon until the 2 deep cycles were "tired" (just enough
power to get us home.)
36 AHr at 31.5 volts is 1134 Watt Hours to return to the battery on a full
charge. With a 150 watt charger, it will take 7 hours to recharge. This is
right where NiCd and NiMh batteries do not like to charge. There is barely
enough current to make a peak charger work, barely enough current to make a
temperature detector work but plenty of power to vent the cells once they
fill up.
Since you are not going to be doing a lot of cycles on this rig (burning man
does not happen every weekend) you can abuse the cells for a couple dozen
cycles then recycle them.
very accurate and good choice
One caution, do not charge NiCd cells in parallel. Once the first string
fills up, it gets hot and hogs all the current making it pull more current,
making it get hotter, until something melts. I have seen a set of NiCd cells
get not enough to melt solder when a charger malfunctioned.
excellent point, thank you
It would be best if you charged the strings with separate current regulators
and discharged them through an isolator. It would also be best to use a very
sensitive peak detector and a very sensitive temperature detector on each
string to try to tell when it is fully charged. You may experience a lot of
false end of charge indications.
snip
way more work(money) than I wanted to do.
A better solution might be to use (borrow if necessary) a 24 volt flooded
NiCd battery. They behave better on charge and are about the right size and
weight for your application. Someone was giving some away a while back. They
might still be available.
This would be the perfect answer. Any 24 (or even 12v) NiCd's out there?
jolly roger
Good luck with your project.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BOT = "Back On Topic"
My only environmental angst about an EV is the batteries. It seems
I'll either need to replace them every couple years, or go with a
toxic chemistry like NiCads. Don't get me wrong, I think lead-acids
and Nicads are an acceptable risk, but the purist in me wishes there
was a non-toxic chemistry that outlasted the car.
Now flip this to hydrogen. Suppose I use solar panels and
electrolysis to make H2, and just burn it directly in an ICE motor.
Even though electrolysis is 85% efficient, and the ICE is only 20%
efficient at best, at least I can run 20 or more years on this setup.
If a fuel cell lasts 20 years or more, my efficiency is much better
than 20% for the car, so I'd need maybe 1/2 as many solar cells.
A side note, I don't think the issue is making hydrogen production
more efficient. I think it is hydrogen storage. Pressurized H2 tanks
don't hold much energy, so you'll need some kind of very efficient
chemical or hydride storage.
Contrast this to using Orbitals that I would need to replace every 2
years. Even if it took 1/4 the solar panels to keep the batteries
charged, when the energy it takes to manufacture and dispose of the
batteries is taken into account, am I really ahead of the H2 case?
Remember, the basic difference is 4 times as many solar panels for H2
vs. making and disposing of five tons of batteries.
So don't get me wrong, I'm building a battery-electric now, and
believe that is clearly superior to fossil fuel. What's not as clear
to me (and I'd welcome any studies that show yay or nay) is if
hydrogen is ultimately cleaner or not.
--- quoted anonymously ---:
> At 08:42 PM 10/25/2004, you wrote:
>
> >I have an (automotive) colleague that sees pure electric as bunkum
> and
> >hydrogen (hybrids) as the only answer.
> >
> >I lack the experience to debunk it? Anyone care to share a link?
>
> Hydrogen is an extremely clever scam. When you step back
> and ask,
> "Where will the hydrogen come from?" the house of cards falls
> apart.
>
> You will get hydrogen from fossil fuels. The most economic
> way to
> get hydrogen is to catalyze natural gas. When you do this, you
> throw away
> 50% of the fuel value. If you were to put that hydrogen into a
> fuel-cell
> car, it would only go 50% the distance (at best) that a hybrid car
> would,
> if fueled from the natural gas directly. The oil company loves it.
> They get
> to sell twice as much per mile driven. It is also twice as much CO2
> per
> mile driven. (G.W. = Global Warming)
>
> If you choose to make hydrogen for your fuel cell car from
>
> electricity, an EV using that electricity directly will go at least
> twice
> as far.
>
> Many of the foaming advocates of hydrogen say, "But we can
> figure
> out a way to make hydrogen more efficiently if we hurl big research
> dollars
> at the problem." Unfortunately, there are only so many hydrogen
> atoms in
> each methane molecule. Also, until we unlock the secret of
> photosynthesis,
> there will be no efficient way to make hydrogen. Batteries will
> always be
> more efficient at storing electricity than hydrogen gas.
>
> Think of all the money we have spent on fusion power and
> it will
> give you just a peek of how much we would have to spend on
> electrolysis to
> make it more efficient. There are many many other areas in
> alternative
> fuels that will reap greater rewards on a faster timetable for far
> less
> money. (Like biodiesel) Of course, the oil companies really
> wouldn't like
> that, would they.
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the maximum current that they can deliver for 30 seconds
without damage? Example: Can a 39Ah battery deliver 200 amps for 30
seconds? Are car batteries better at this?? Thanks for any help.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your mooncar looks really cool! Looks like you did a good job on it.
The first thought is to optimize the vehicle's energy use. You could
rework the vehicle's shape as a moon shape is not very aerodynamic.
(just kidding!)
Nicads should be lighter than lead-acid for the same energy. However,
be careful about assuming the nicads will have a better power to
weight ratio. You need to get the special lower resistance nicads
(like the Sanyo N-3000CR) to get better peak power-to-weight, and
even then it is only maybe 20% better peak power than an Orbital.
Generic nicads are probably much higher resistance and alot less peak
power per kg than an orbital. What nicads do well is have less
Peukert effect, so they can hold moderate or high powers longer than
a lead-acid can. They can also accept charge pretty fast.
The Sanyos would run you about $5/cell! Even the the cheap c-cells
you found would cost you over $200. Since you need just a few cycles,
what about going with a four starter batteries, charge two and run
two, and swap batteries? Another thought is to charge up two cheap
lead acids while you are cruising, and use them to quick charge your
nicads.
--- Roger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello EV wizards,
> I have a special use ev (under 5 mph at all times, weight of 200#
> +2
> riders + 2 deepcycle 12v floodeds)
> totally flat dusty soft surface - burning man)
> photos here > http://www.jollyone.com/artcar-index.html
>
> I found a cheap source of c cell nicads ($.58 cents each)
>
> I wanted to replace the leadacid bats with the Nicads for
> 1. less weight
> 2. better power to weight ratio
>
> I wanted to do a quick reality check here on my numbers.
> I am using the EV Warrior motor and controller (it works fine, even
> the
> damn horn)
> I considered making 43" ABS tubes with 21 C cells end-to-end. 24V
> @ 1.8ahr
> 20 of these would give me 36 ahr (plenty for my needs)
>
> We drive for a couple of hours each day, then charge with 2 75watt
> solar
> panels
>
> Will the long tube "module" work? (beefy springs at each end, with
>
> silver conductive paste
> in between each bat) 12GA "Deans" wire from each module to the
> main
> power block.
>
> And while you are thinking, any suggestions for charging?
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> From: "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: What tricks have you implemented to reduce drag? Need ideas.
> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:44:46 -0600
<snip>
> That's for sure, regen is pretty much needed if you have to
> travel down major hills with winding turns and don't want to
> pull over to cool your brakes. I've started considering various
> methods for adding regen outside the drive motor, for just that
> reason.
Since I live at 4,675 feet and work at about 500 feet above sea level, I've
considered such options also. Having tried going 'down the hill' in my
ICE Metro with the tranny in neutral, I can definitely tell that a heavier car
would require some kind of braking assistance. I wonder if a high
amperage alternator rewound to a little above pack voltage would work.
It would be used intermittently enough to avoid overheating, and
efficiency isn't too much of an issue, since it's used for braking first and
energy recuperation second.
Another option might be an eTek with a step-up transformer. Problem is,
once you get into a second motor and controller, you're very close to
the price of a Siemens AC system, and might as well go for the higher
efficiency and less complex AC system.
Tim
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Furthermore, couldn't it be said that hydrogen is not a _source_ of energy
but a _storage_ method (similar to a battery), albeit far less efficient?
Jeff "iceman" Yoder
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:41 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: OT: Re: Hydrogen fuel
>
>
> At 08:42 PM 10/25/2004, you wrote:
>
> >I have an (automotive) colleague that sees pure electric as
> bunkum and
> >hydrogen (hybrids) as the only answer.
> >
> >I lack the experience to debunk it? Anyone care to share a link?
>
> Hydrogen is an extremely clever scam. When you step
> back and ask,
> "Where will the hydrogen come from?" the house of cards falls apart.
>
> You will get hydrogen from fossil fuels. The most
> economic way to
> get hydrogen is to catalyze natural gas. When you do this,
> you throw away
> 50% of the fuel value. If you were to put that hydrogen into
> a fuel-cell
> car, it would only go 50% the distance (at best) that a
> hybrid car would,
> if fueled from the natural gas directly. The oil company
> loves it. They get
> to sell twice as much per mile driven. It is also twice as
> much CO2 per
> mile driven. (G.W. = Global Warming)
>
> If you choose to make hydrogen for your fuel cell car from
> electricity, an EV using that electricity directly will go at
> least twice
> as far.
>
> Many of the foaming advocates of hydrogen say, "But
> we can figure
> out a way to make hydrogen more efficiently if we hurl big
> research dollars
> at the problem." Unfortunately, there are only so many
> hydrogen atoms in
> each methane molecule. Also, until we unlock the secret of
> photosynthesis,
> there will be no efficient way to make hydrogen. Batteries
> will always be
> more efficient at storing electricity than hydrogen gas.
>
> Think of all the money we have spent on fusion power
> and it will
> give you just a peek of how much we would have to spend on
> electrolysis to
> make it more efficient. There are many many other areas in
> alternative
> fuels that will reap greater rewards on a faster timetable
> for far less
> money. (Like biodiesel) Of course, the oil companies really
> wouldn't like
> that, would they.
>
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
George,
Here is a graph of their discharge capabilities...
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/ody_b.asp?routine=ody_dchrg&brandID=5
This should answer most of your questions.
Regards,
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 11:30 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Hawker Batteries and Maximum Current
What is the maximum current that they can deliver for 30 seconds
without damage? Example: Can a 39Ah battery deliver 200 amps for 30
seconds? Are car batteries better at this?? Thanks for any help.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try this URL, which preports to be full manual for a "BB-693A/U" battery which is made
up of nineteen cells of type "BB-600A/A", "as used in the Vulcan Air Defense
System". (The web page is hard to read, do to poor HTML, I had to set the font size to
"smallest" in IE or "75%" in Netscape):
http://www.tpub.com/content/batteries/TM-11-6140-203-14-4P/index.htm
Here are the basic Specifications.
Sorry that the formating is ugly, but you should see the original!:
======= ======== ==========
Type: Nickel-Cadmium (vented).
Number of Cells: 19 BB-600A/A.
Electrolyte: Potassium hydroxide (KOH), 31 percent (by weight) in distilled water.
Operating range:
Temperature: -40� F(-40' C) to 1250 F (51.70 C).
Atmospheric pressure: Sea level to 100,000 feet (0.4 inch of mercury).
Storage:
Duration: Unlimited, regardless of state of charge.
Temperature: -650 F to 1650 F (73.9� C).
Atmospheric pressure: Sea level to 100,000 feet (0.4 inch of mercury).
Electrical:
Rating:
30 ampere hours at 1 hour rate,
40 ampere hours at 5 hour rate.
Current::
At temperature of approximately 750 F (2400 C)
8 amperes for approximately 5 hours;
30 amperes for approximately 1 hour,
270 amperes for approximately 5 minutes.
At temperature of approximately-22* F (300 C)
270 amperes for approximately 3 minutes.
Voltage:
Open circuit at J2 : Approximately 2 volts (fully charged with 24-hour rest period).
Open circuit at J1: Approximately 9 volts (fully charge with 24-hour rest period).
Under load at J2:
Temperature of approximately 750 F (24� C):
8-ampere load: 24 volts decreasing to not less than 19.2 volts in 5 hours.
30-ampere load : 24 volts decreasing to not less than 18 volts in 1 hour.
270-ampere load: 24 volts decreasing to not less than 14.4 volts in 5 minutes.
772-ampere load 24 volts decreasing to not less than 11.0 volts in 1 minute (3, 20
second pulses).
Temperature of approximately - 22' F (-30� C):
270-ampere load: 24 volts decreasing to not less than 14.4 volts in 3 minutes.
Battery terminal links:
Material: Nickel-plated copper.
Number: 19.
Cell plate materials:
Positive (charged) : Nickel oxide.
Negative (charged): Cadmium.
Separator material: Plastic laminate.
Cell case material: Molded Nylon.
Connector type (24-volt): MS3509 (J2).
Connector type (8.4-volt): MS3102R-16-12S (J1).
Connector type (heater): MS3102R-14A-7P (J3).
Heater:
General Electric: 175 watts at 20 volts.
SAFT, Marathon: 375 watts at 20 volts.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 09:01 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List', 'Zappylist'
> Subject: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare me.
>
> I inquired to Marathon about the BB600 batteries. I don't know weather to
> cry, sell them to John Wayland or buy a Zilla from Otmar. Lawrence
> Rhodes.........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:19 PM
> Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
>
>
> Lawrence,
> I think that you should understand a little more about what you have on your
> hands. These are not a typical nickel cadmium cell. They are manufactured to
> perform in very extreme environments as found on tactical (fighter)
> aircraft. They are designed to put out 1,000 to 1,800 amps per cell. The
> list price for these cells is $466 each. From your response I can see that
> you have done some research on basic, low cost, low quality, low drain,
> battery systems - these are not in that category. Adding things such as
> mineral oil would not only not be of any benefit it could be dangerous.
> Automatic watering systems are used in low end systems and should never be
> used with these cells. The addition of water to these cells should only be
> done under very controlled circumstances and only by a trained technician.
> Charging should only be done with an approved aviation grade charger. A
> special plastic wrench (P/N 16979-001, $24.27 ea.) is used for the removal
> of the vent caps. The intercell connectors are copper / nickel plated have a
> list price range from $12.93 to $8.75 each. The screws are $5.10 each. and
> you will need both a "Bellville" and a flat washer for each terminal. And
> you will need the appropriate temperature sensing system. In short you have
> some very expensive cells that should not be used for the application that
> you suggest. DO NOT use them with homemade hardware. DO NOT experiment with
> them unless you get some training or consult a trained engineer. If you
> decide to dispose of them please do so in a safe manner, depositing them in
> the garbage is not only illegal it is very dangerous. If you need any
> further assistance please call me.
> Best regards,
> Tom Elkjer
> 254-741-5410
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:55 PM
> To: Tom Elkjer
> Subject: Re: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
>
>
> I am using them to drive an electric car. They were sold as surplus. It
> will be three units of one hundred each. If I can get the orginal buss
> plates, screws etc.. Is there an automatic watering system. I would be
> interested.I also need tools to take off the caps to add water and I heard a
> few drops of mineral oil in each cell has some benefit. Any information
> about maintainance and charging as well as what kind of charger to use would
> be beneficial. I was thinking a plastic wrench or socket would be used to
> take the caps off. . Make things safer. Thank you Tom. Lawrence
> Rhodes....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:29 AM
> Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
>
>
> The BB600A/A is a military battery designed for use on military aircraft.
> Documents on these batteries and their components are controlled and not
> available to the general public. I don't quite understand what you are
> doing. I assume that you have acquired some surplus military batteries. Are
> you going to try to assemble 3 units of 10 cells each into a subset to be
> charged in parallel? And then assemble 10 subsets into 1 120VDC battery?
> Why? What are you doing?
> Best regards,
> Tom Elkjer
> 254-741-5410
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:12 PM
> To: Tom Elkjer
> Subject: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
>
>
> Is there still documentation on these batteries? I want to assemble them
> into 120v strings. I will have three strings. Can I use one charger to
> charge these in parallel? That will be 300 battery cells at 1040 pounds.
> Thanks Tom. Lawrence Rhodes.........
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try this URL, which preports to be full manual for a "BB-693A/U" battery which is made
up of nineteen cells of type "BB-600A/A", "as used in the Vulcan Air Defense
System". (The web page is hard to read, do to poor HTML, I had to set the font size to
"smallest" in IE or "75%" in Netscape):
http://www.tpub.com/content/batteries/TM-11-6140-203-14-4P/index.htm
Here are the basic Specifications.
Sorry that the formating is ugly, but you should see the original!:
======= ======== ==========
Type: Nickel-Cadmium (vented).
Number of Cells: 19 BB-600A/A.
Electrolyte: Potassium hydroxide (KOH), 31 percent (by weight) in distilled water.
Operating range:
Temperature: -40� F(-40' C) to 1250 F (51.70 C).
Atmospheric pressure: Sea level to 100,000 feet (0.4 inch of mercury).
Storage:
Duration: Unlimited, regardless of state of charge.
Temperature: -650 F to 1650 F (73.9� C).
Atmospheric pressure: Sea level to 100,000 feet (0.4 inch of mercury).
Electrical:
Rating:
30 ampere hours at 1 hour rate,
40 ampere hours at 5 hour rate.
Current::
At temperature of approximately 750 F (2400 C)
8 amperes for approximately 5 hours;
30 amperes for approximately 1 hour,
270 amperes for approximately 5 minutes.
At temperature of approximately-22* F (300 C)
270 amperes for approximately 3 minutes.
Voltage:
Open circuit at J2 : Approximately 2 volts (fully charged with 24-hour rest period).
Open circuit at J1: Approximately 9 volts (fully charge with 24-hour rest period).
Under load at J2:
Temperature of approximately 750 F (24� C):
8-ampere load: 24 volts decreasing to not less than 19.2 volts in 5 hours.
30-ampere load : 24 volts decreasing to not less than 18 volts in 1 hour.
270-ampere load: 24 volts decreasing to not less than 14.4 volts in 5 minutes.
772-ampere load 24 volts decreasing to not less than 11.0 volts in 1 minute (3, 20
second pulses).
Temperature of approximately - 22' F (-30� C):
270-ampere load: 24 volts decreasing to not less than 14.4 volts in 3 minutes.
Battery terminal links:
Material: Nickel-plated copper.
Number: 19.
Cell plate materials:
Positive (charged) : Nickel oxide.
Negative (charged): Cadmium.
Separator material: Plastic laminate.
Cell case material: Molded Nylon.
Connector type (24-volt): MS3509 (J2).
Connector type (8.4-volt): MS3102R-16-12S (J1).
Connector type (heater): MS3102R-14A-7P (J3).
Heater:
General Electric: 175 watts at 20 volts.
SAFT, Marathon: 375 watts at 20 volts.
-Mike Shipway-
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 07:49 AM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare me.
>
> I think the only thing I don't know in reality is the max continuious amp
> draw I can use. Ed Ang was saying something like 90 amps per string. Well
> that doesn't seem right. He was using 1/5 inch thick buss bars made of pure
> nickel that were 1.1 inches wide. Way overkill. I am sure I can cut copper
> from a sheet and make 1/16 inch X 3/4 inch and be safe. I'd have them
> nickel plated. I think I can even buy the buss bars on the internet and
> drill my own holes. I have a lot of options but the amp draw is the only
> thing I can't figure out. The manufacturer says they will give over 1000
> amps but Ed said I couldn't draw more than 90 amps continuous. The
> Manufacturer says the information is confidential because of the military
> aspect. I sure would like to know the truth here. Ed is very cautious. I
> think I will try to get the proper specs from Marathon & hope they don't
> hold back. They have been good so far. I'm cautious too but I can't see
> how a battery that puts out 1000 amps would be hurt by a 150 amp continuous
> draw which is what the Electra Van will do max. Lawrence Rhodes........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 4:11 PM
> Subject: RE: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare
> me.
>
>
> > Is there something new in this that you didn't already know? These cells
> > are made for very high discharge rates, so you have to be careful with
> > them. The hardware prices he is quoting you are what airplane
> > manufacturers have to pay for things brand new. The aircraft industry
> > needs things manufactured to very exacting specs, and they pay for that.
> > You can use anything you want as interconnects as long as they meet your
> > needs. One thing you did know going into this is that watering would be a
> > major pain. It's not that bad however if you have good access to the
> > cells. I can water the 44 cells on my motorcycle in about a half hour.
> > That would translate into a full afternoon project for you, but they don't
> > need watering that often. My tools consist of a taped up hex wrench and a
> > childrens medicine syringe with a piece of 10 guage wire insulation on the
> > end which inserts into the cell. If you are planning on having the FAA
> > come out and inspect your EV then you might need some special training and
> > sophisticated equipment. If not simply charge them up and go for a ride.
> > You've already gotten enough information from this list to keep them
> > healthy for a very long time.
> >
> > damon
> >
> >>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> >>"Zappylist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Subject: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare me.
> >>Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:01:02 -0700
> >>
> >>I inquired to Marathon about the BB600 batteries. I don't know weather to
> >>cry, sell them to John Wayland or buy a Zilla from Otmar. Lawrence
> >>Rhodes.........
> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:19 PM
> >>Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
> >>
> >>
> >>Lawrence,
> >>I think that you should understand a little more about what you have on
> >>your hands. These are not a typical nickel cadmium cell. They are
> >>manufactured to perform in very extreme environments as found on tactical
> >>(fighter) aircraft. They are designed to put out 1,000 to 1,800 amps per
> >>cell. The list price for these cells is $466 each. From your response I
> >>can see that you have done some research on basic, low cost, low quality,
> >>low drain, battery systems - these are not in that category. Adding things
> >>such as mineral oil would not only not be of any benefit it could be
> >>dangerous. Automatic watering systems are used in low end systems and
> >>should never be used with these cells. The addition of water to these
> >>cells should only be done under very controlled circumstances and only by
> >>a trained technician. Charging should only be done with an approved
> >>aviation grade charger. A special plastic wrench (P/N 16979-001, $24.27
> >>ea.) is used for the removal of the vent caps. The intercell connectors
> >>are copper / nickel plated have a list price range from $12.93 to $8.75
> >>each. The screws are $5.10 each. and you will need both a "Bellville" and
> >>a flat washer for each terminal. And you will need the appropriate
> >>temperature sensing system. In short you have some very expensive cells
> >>that should not be used for the application that you suggest. DO NOT use
> >>them with homemade hardware. DO NOT experiment with them unless you get
> >>some training or consult a trained engineer. If you decide to dispose of
> >>them please do so in a safe manner, depositing them in the garbage is not
> >>only illegal it is very dangerous. If you need any further assistance
> >>please call me.
> >>Best regards,
> >>Tom Elkjer
> >>254-741-5410
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:55 PM
> >>To: Tom Elkjer
> >>Subject: Re: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
> >>
> >>
> >>I am using them to drive an electric car. They were sold as surplus. It
> >>will be three units of one hundred each. If I can get the orginal buss
> >>plates, screws etc.. Is there an automatic watering system. I would be
> >>interested.I also need tools to take off the caps to add water and I heard
> >>a
> >>few drops of mineral oil in each cell has some benefit. Any information
> >>about maintainance and charging as well as what kind of charger to use
> >>would
> >>be beneficial. I was thinking a plastic wrench or socket would be used to
> >>take the caps off. . Make things safer. Thank you Tom. Lawrence
> >>Rhodes....
> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:29 AM
> >>Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
> >>
> >>
> >>The BB600A/A is a military battery designed for use on military aircraft.
> >>Documents on these batteries and their components are controlled and not
> >>available to the general public. I don't quite understand what you are
> >>doing. I assume that you have acquired some surplus military batteries.
> >>Are
> >>you going to try to assemble 3 units of 10 cells each into a subset to be
> >>charged in parallel? And then assemble 10 subsets into 1 120VDC battery?
> >>Why? What are you doing?
> >>Best regards,
> >>Tom Elkjer
> >>254-741-5410
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:12 PM
> >>To: Tom Elkjer
> >>Subject: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
> >>
> >>
> >>Is there still documentation on these batteries? I want to assemble them
> >>into 120v strings. I will have three strings. Can I use one charger to
> >>charge these in parallel? That will be 300 battery cells at 1040
> >>pounds.
> >>Thanks Tom. Lawrence Rhodes.........
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
> > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all I have included an attachment of the official manual for the BB600
batteries. If any on the list need it please email me or Damon or Jerry if
I lose it. I'll be happy to pass it on. The list serve will probably
delete it. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:46 AM
Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
Lawrence,
Attached please find a manual with servicing instructions for the cells that
you have. Your cells are type 36H120 and the manual details the testing and
preparation for service requirements for theses cells. Servicing equipment
and spare parts are available from any authorized Marathon distributor. See
www.mptc.com for a listing of our distributors. Please be advised that
Marathon does not support or approve of your venture and strongly suggest
that you seek the services of a competent engineer before proceeding. Please
be careful!
Best regards,
Tom Elkjer
254-741-5410
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 5:46 PM
To: Tom Elkjer
Subject: Re: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
Well Tom I guess 90 amps max draw per string was a lie. A friend of mine
used 172vdc of them in one string to run his electric car. He said they
didn't perform any better than Optima Lead acid sealed batteries as far as
range. I had no idea they could put out that kind of amperage. Do you have
the specs. on how many seconds they can put out those amps? Some of my Drag
Racing friends might be interested in them. I would not push them further
than 450 amps so each string would see only 150 amps. One of the reasons
for using these batteries is the long life(25 to 40 years and thousands of
cycles). These batteries can also be drained further than most batteries
with little detremental effect. I will be putt putting down the road going
60 mph drawing maybe 150 amps. I would doubt that any one battery would see
more than a few amps max draw. If there is some danger with this battery I
should know about please let me know. We in the electric car community have
used high quality SAFT NiCads and batteries developed for other uses
sucessfully in the past. I am sure these batteries will perform quite well
if I have all the charge data and maintainance data. If all goes well I
will be driving my car with these batteries for many years. I do have
three damaged batteries. I will take caution with them. Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:19 PM
Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
Lawrence,
I think that you should understand a little more about what you have on your
hands. These are not a typical nickel cadmium cell. They are manufactured to
perform in very extreme environments as found on tactical (fighter)
aircraft. They are designed to put out 1,000 to 1,800 amps per cell. The
list price for these cells is $466 each. From your response I can see that
you have done some research on basic, low cost, low quality, low drain,
battery systems - these are not in that category. Adding things such as
mineral oil would not only not be of any benefit it could be dangerous.
Automatic watering systems are used in low end systems and should never be
used with these cells. The addition of water to these cells should only be
done under very controlled circumstances and only by a trained technician.
Charging should only be done with an approved aviation grade charger. A
special plastic wrench (P/N 16979-001, $24.27 ea.) is used for the removal
of the vent caps. The intercell connectors are copper / nickel plated have a
list price range from $12.93 to $8.75 each. The screws are $5.10 each. and
you will need both a "Bellville" and a flat washer for each terminal. And
you will need the appropriate temperature sensing system. In short you have
some very expensive cells that should not be used for the application that
you suggest. DO NOT use them with homemade hardware. DO NOT experiment with
them unless you get some training or consult a trained engineer. If you
decide to dispose of them please do so in a safe manner, depositing them in
the garbage is not only illegal it is very dangerous. If you need any
further assistance please call me.
Best regards,
Tom Elkjer
254-741-5410
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:55 PM
To: Tom Elkjer
Subject: Re: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
I am using them to drive an electric car. They were sold as surplus. It
will be three units of one hundred each. If I can get the orginal buss
plates, screws etc.. Is there an automatic watering system. I would be
interested.I also need tools to take off the caps to add water and I heard a
few drops of mineral oil in each cell has some benefit. Any information
about maintainance and charging as well as what kind of charger to use would
be beneficial. I was thinking a plastic wrench or socket would be used to
take the caps off. . Make things safer. Thank you Tom. Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
The BB600A/A is a military battery designed for use on military aircraft.
Documents on these batteries and their components are controlled and not
available to the general public. I don't quite understand what you are
doing. I assume that you have acquired some surplus military batteries. Are
you going to try to assemble 3 units of 10 cells each into a subset to be
charged in parallel? And then assemble 10 subsets into 1 120VDC battery?
Why? What are you doing?
Best regards,
Tom Elkjer
254-741-5410
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:12 PM
To: Tom Elkjer
Subject: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
Is there still documentation on these batteries? I want to assemble them
into 120v strings. I will have three strings. Can I use one charger to
charge these in parallel? That will be 300 battery cells at 1040 pounds.
Thanks Tom. Lawrence Rhodes.........
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You used to be able to go to the EPA Fuel economy site but they deleted the
info on yearly fuel cost. (if someone could find the info on the Honda FCV
it would be apreciated) As I remember it was 1600 dollars a year compared
to the Nissan Altra whick is 330 dollars per year. Hydrogen is a poor fuel
storage medium. The hydrogen must be cracked taking energy. It must then
be compressed which takes energy. Because of this if you used for instance
solar to do all this you would need four times the solar cells to go the
same distance you would get from just using batteries. You can however do
side by side comparisons of the Nissan Altra and the Toyota Prius. The
Nissan while being heavier still beats the Prius in yearly cost. Lawrence
Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "greg head" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 7:42 PM
Subject: Hydrogen fuel
I have an (automotive) colleague that sees pure electric as bunkum and
hydrogen (hybrids) as the only answer.
I lack the experience to debunk it? Anyone care to share a link?
Cheers,
Greg Head
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
I have just found a fascinating document. It is a scanned version of the
1922 "THE AUTOMOBILE STORAGE BATTERY ITS CARE AND REPAIR" manual
http://www.powerstream.com/BPD.htm
Download for off-line reading
http://www.powerstream.com/1922/battery_1922.zip
The title is somewhat misleading. This document actually documents pretty
much everything that was known about the manufacture, repair and care of
the lead acid battery at that time. Much of the information is still
useful. The photographs showing the manufacturing process are
fascinating.
Of particular interest to anyone who burns off a battery terminal is the
section on "lead burning". "Lead welding" would probably be the more
accurate term but "burning" is the term in use.
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- David DyDymaxiondadavidydymaxionahoo.com> wrote:
> My only environmental angst about an EV is the
> batteries. It seems
> I'll either need to replace them every couple years,
> or go with a
> toxic chemistry like NiNiCadsDon't get me wrong, I
> think lead-acids
> and NiNicadsre an acceptable risk, but the purist in
> me wishes there
> was a non-toxic chemistry that outlasted the car.
It's called NiMH. Southern California Edison has
several vehicles with well over 100,000 miles, all
with over 80% of pack capacity left. An appropriately
sized Li-ion pack will also likely outlast your car as
long as unknown calender life issues don't interfere.
Li-ion is not as non-toxic (or "almost edible") as
NiMH but in relative terms to a PEM, they are
non-toxic.
> Now flip this to hydrogen. Suppose I use solar
> panels and
> electrolysis to make H2, and just burn it directly
> in an ICE motor.
> Even though electrolysis is 85% efficient, and the
> ICE is only 20%
> efficient at best, at least I can run 20 or more
> years on this setup.
assuming you can find an ICE that would last that
long. Burning hydrogen causes much more wear and tear
per mile for a typical ICE engine than gasoline
because there is more power/punch. Kinda like running
Nitrous in your car, just not quite as extreme.
> If a fuel cell lasts 20 years or more, my
efeffiiency> is much better
> than 20% for the car, so I'd need maybe 1/2 as many
> solar cells.
Once again, good luck finding one. Fuel cells have
life cycles too, It's just not very much fun to talk
about with starry eyes. Their life cycles are probably
closer to lead acid batteries than susupercaps if you
consider a life cycle the time between repairs. Unlike
Lead acid batteries, they don't get sent back to a
recycling plant (too expensive for that) so they get
"recycled" on site. Ballard calls it routine
mamaintenance. If your lead acid batteries cost you a
hundred thousand bucks each you would rip them apart
and manually remove the sediment and sulfation before
buying a new ones too. Keep doing that and they might
outlast your car.
> ... So don't get me wrong, I'm building a
> battery-electric now, and
> believe that is clearly superior to fossil fuel.
> What's not as clear
> to me (and I'd welcome any studies that show yayayr
> nay) is if
> hydrogen is ultimately cleaner or not.
Here's one to get you going:
http://www.acpropulsion.com/EAASV_101803.pdf
See page 31. RAV4-EV gets 49 mpge with renewable
energy, a similarly sized Honda FCX gets 12 mpge with
renewables
And this one explains where they get their numbers:
http://www.acpropulsion.com/PDF%20files/ANB%20ZEV%20comments%204.pdf
If we weren't wasting so many millions of taxpayer
dollars on the hydrogen pipe dream it might actually
be funny to watch it all go down. Now it just makes me
ill, particularly on April 15th.
-Sam
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