EV Digest 3871
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re:Current Eliminator News
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Precharge Resistor Required?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Scooter battery balancer
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: brake light flashing circuit
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Precharge Resistor Required?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Current Eliminator News
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Hydrogen fuel
by greg head <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: What tricks have you implemented to reduce drag? Need ideas.
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) capacitors
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Current Eliminator News
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) OT: Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) mooncar on NiCads
by Roger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Giving up the goat? Advice on my EV Project.
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: mooncar on NiCads
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare me.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) A way of using a motor without an output shaft
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Some Questions
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Fwd: (ET) FS 25 VDC large Perm Mag motor... For attachment?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare me.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Hydrogen fuel
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare me.
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Congratulations Dennis! For clarification do you mean Remy who is the
associate editor and webmaster for "Electrifying Times" or possibly Delco
Remy of GM fame? I'm sure there are inquiring minds out there who would like
to know. Also what are the dates for the APEC show?
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 3:01 PM
Subject: Re:Current Eliminator News
She has been turned into a show car,Remy is now the sponsor of the
CE.....The
Current Eliminator will be in Vegas at the apec show hanging on the wall
with
a national timing tree also in the booth.Great prizes givin each hour if
you
have great reaction times.Watch for CE6 in 2005,all my old nedra records
WILL
be BLOWN AWAY............. Dennis Kilowatt Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sweeney, John P wrote:
> A trick I used was to have the voltmeter act as the precharge
> resistor. Not much current flows through the voltmeter so it
> precharges the controller slower. It took about 5 seconds to
> precharge the 1231C that I was using.
Something's not right here. Most voltmeters draw less than 1 ma. The
Curtis 1231C controller has around 10,000uF of capacitors. It would take
more like 5 minutes to precharge with such a small current.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> An easiest solution may be to drop the input voltage using off-shelf
> autotransformer on the input side.
Except that Lesters have constant voltage transformers. Changing the
input voltage has no effect on the output voltage over a pretty wide
range.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 1:43 PM -0700 on 10/25/04, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
If I remember right, they use to sell kits doing this, but they were
outlawed as distracting flashing every time you brake makes more
harm than good. At least that was declared as a reason.
You can sure built this, but make sure it is legal in your state.
Here in TN, they've been theoretically illegal since day one. Vehicle
code states that a flashing red or blue light is reserved for
emergency vehicles only. A flashing tail light is therefore illegal
by default. Of course, it's not like the cops actually stop anybody
here for having them.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 10/25/2004 6:04:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Lee of course is right. The voltmeter was in the circuit all the time. I had
a circuit breaker that disconnected the pack and the voltmeter. It probably
took me a couple minutes to turn the key after opening the hood and resetting
the circuit breaker. The key closed the main contactor. I pretty much had the
voltmeter in the circuit all the time.
Sorry for the confusion
Pat
Sweeney, John P wrote:
> A trick I used was to have the voltmeter act as the precharge
> resistor. Not much current flows through the voltmeter so it
> precharges the controller slower. It took about 5 seconds to
> precharge the 1231C that I was using.
Something's not right here. Most voltmeters draw less than 1 ma. The
Curtis 1231C controller has around 10,000uF of capacitors. It would take
more like 5 minutes to precharge with such a small current.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes Rod it is the Delco Remy,but now just REMY. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have an (automotive) colleague that sees pure electric as bunkum and
hydrogen (hybrids) as the only answer.
I lack the experience to debunk it? Anyone care to share a link?
Cheers,
Greg Head
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 05-Oct-04
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "John Westlund"
> Kit cars also have problems such as leaking in the rain,
> rattling, and poor reliability
I think that's generally true. I have a gas-propelled kit car
(Kelmark GT) that was just like that when I bought it. After
a complete rebuilding though, I managed to correct all of
those issues.
> >Redline MTL in the transmission made a huge
> >difference, especially
> >in the winter, where I hadn't needed brakes to stop
> >with the standard
> >gear oil in there.
>
> This gear oil. Is it good enough to handle large amounts of
> torque on a regular basis without killing the transmission?
I believe so, you might want to research it on the net, I came
across impressive amounts of information about it when
I was considering it. It's synthetic, so it's able to meet the
standards of gear oil while being much thinner in viscosity.
> Quite a shame regen is so hard to do with DC motors at such
> a high voltage. Having 30% more range in city driving would
> be nice. But that's the tradeoff. This trait of being able
> to coast well shows that your car is quite efficient.
That's for sure, regen is pretty much needed if you have to
travel down major hills with winding turns and don't want to
pull over to cool your brakes. I've started considering various
methods for adding regen outside the drive motor, for just that
reason.
> Any idea what its wh/mile consumption at 60 MPH is in normal
> weather conditions, such as a 7.5 mph or so wind speed,
> normal air pressure, ect.?
No, I've only ran small distances on freeways, infrequently, and
always had too many hills, traffic, etc. to get any useful information.
> On austinev.org, you list your
> range as 60 miles, but is that cycle range to 100% DoD, or
> city range to 80% DoD, or is that highway range to 80%, and
> if then, at what speed?
That's an estimate I came up with based on some runs that were
in mixed city/freeway. I once drove in a rally/car show type event
that included smoking the tires for spectators, city driving, and a short
freeway blast where I covered 21 miles, using 11.4 Ah. So I believe
that driven carefully the car would do the 60 miles as a 100% discharge
with a fairly new pack. Stating a range of 50 miles would be more
accurate, since no one wants to do a 100% discharge, but I would
consider 60 miles to be its maximum range. Heck, the car could go
40 miles with 150 lbs less battery, floodies, 120 Volts, cold soaked,
running headlights, heater, etc when I was looking to determine my
worst case scenario range right after I built it in its first version.
> How many miles have you put on those Optimas and to what DoD
> did you typically take them?
I have somewhere around 9000 miles on them, so not very much.
The DOD has also been low, probably typically 50% or so. Another
help to the longevity of the pack has been always operating in cool
climates.
> How about the capacity you
> have now versus what you had new? Is your maximum usable
> range still consistent with what you normally had?
My capacity has certainly dropped, but not by a drastic amount.
I always avoided deep discharges to help the cycle life, but recently
needed to exercise the pack to grow latent capacity and start driving
quite a bit further that I had been for a year or so. I got the capacity
up to around 22 or 23 Ah driving on hilly terrain at approx. the 1 hour
rate. I could have probably gotten it up to 25 Ah or maybe even a bit
more, as it was improving rapidly with every cycle. But instead I went
back to my normal driving habits which is about half of that DOD, since
I didn't want to run more 100% cycles than I really needed to. From
what I've heard, the typical capacity of a YT driven in an EV falls
somewhere in the 30's, so if that's true I've lost a considerable, but not
a huge amount of the original capacity.
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sometimes I hear you guys talk about capacitors, just a quick ebay link
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4662&item=3847917660&rd=1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
THE SHOW DATES ARE NOV.2-5 DENNIS BERUBE
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:42 PM 10/25/2004, you wrote:
I have an (automotive) colleague that sees pure electric as bunkum and
hydrogen (hybrids) as the only answer.
I lack the experience to debunk it? Anyone care to share a link?
Hydrogen is an extremely clever scam. When you step back and ask,
"Where will the hydrogen come from?" the house of cards falls apart.
You will get hydrogen from fossil fuels. The most economic way to
get hydrogen is to catalyze natural gas. When you do this, you throw away
50% of the fuel value. If you were to put that hydrogen into a fuel-cell
car, it would only go 50% the distance (at best) that a hybrid car would,
if fueled from the natural gas directly. The oil company loves it. They get
to sell twice as much per mile driven. It is also twice as much CO2 per
mile driven. (G.W. = Global Warming)
If you choose to make hydrogen for your fuel cell car from
electricity, an EV using that electricity directly will go at least twice
as far.
Many of the foaming advocates of hydrogen say, "But we can figure
out a way to make hydrogen more efficiently if we hurl big research dollars
at the problem." Unfortunately, there are only so many hydrogen atoms in
each methane molecule. Also, until we unlock the secret of photosynthesis,
there will be no efficient way to make hydrogen. Batteries will always be
more efficient at storing electricity than hydrogen gas.
Think of all the money we have spent on fusion power and it will
give you just a peek of how much we would have to spend on electrolysis to
make it more efficient. There are many many other areas in alternative
fuels that will reap greater rewards on a faster timetable for far less
money. (Like biodiesel) Of course, the oil companies really wouldn't like
that, would they.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello EV wizards,
I have a special use ev (under 5 mph at all times, weight of 200# +2
riders + 2 deepcycle 12v floodeds)
totally flat dusty soft surface - burning man)
photos here > http://www.jollyone.com/artcar-index.html
I found a cheap source of c cell nicads ($.58 cents each)
I wanted to replace the leadacid bats with the Nicads for
1. less weight
2. better power to weight ratio
I wanted to do a quick reality check here on my numbers.
I am using the EV Warrior motor and controller (it works fine, even the
damn horn)
I considered making 43" ABS tubes with 21 C cells end-to-end. 24V @ 1.8ahr
20 of these would give me 36 ahr (plenty for my needs)
We drive for a couple of hours each day, then charge with 2 75watt solar
panels
Will the long tube "module" work? (beefy springs at each end, with
silver conductive paste
in between each bat) 12GA "Deans" wire from each module to the main
power block.
And while you are thinking, any suggestions for charging?
jolly roger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Humphrey Timothy H Contr AFRL/IFEC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I'll take the whole shabang, AND keep running and updating the site...
>
> If you'll take 334 per month for 12 months (154 bi-weekly).
>
It sounded like Jeff was going to keep going with his project , but.......
A few weeks ago I got a call from the people who have my ford ranger in NC
, I was going to take all the parts out and put them in somthing else but
got to know J and B who wanted to build an ev. This was my work truck for
years , clunn car 3 , I decided to let them have it for the price of the EV
parts ( pro rating the 35 golf cart batteries to $20 each) as the truck
leaks when it rains and is a little banged up ,it was free , They drove it
all summer 50 miles a day , but now as its getting cold up there It can't
make the trip, They are also having trouble makeing the payments , (which I
cut back to 100 a month). So they are thinking about giving it back.
Below is the "dear John letter"
================================================
Hi Steve,
I wanted to write you an email since I wasn't feeling well enough to talk to
you the other night when you called.
Brent and I keep thinking about the Ranger and what we think the best thing
is to do about keeping it or not. The pros about having it are clearly,
that it doesn't pollute and that even though it is not beautiful on the
outside, I talk to people a lot about what is possible. (Not that this
seems to make any difference in terms of them taking action, but I
continue.) Also, we have pretty much rebuilt the underside with all new
brakes and components, new rear end and new front tie rod and all new tires.
We put new tail lights in it, a new seat, new floor mats and new license
plate that says: Electrik! We also have redone the bed in terms of a new
shell for the batteries, but...
Cons are: We didn't know about it needing an insulated battery compartment
when we bought it, or we would have designed that into the new bed, and
considered this before bringing it down here. At this point, we will need
to rebuild the bed or get a standard truck bed and build an insulated box to
go inside that with some sort of heat source for the batteries. The cab is
shot and leaks badly. We live in a rainy climate and can't use the truck in
the rain because the controller needs its own water proof box. We live in a
cold climate and the truck has no heat and leaks cold air through all of its
various holes. We get 1/2 the range or less in the cold. We live in a
hilly climate and the controller in it doesn't do hills...we can't keep up
with the speed limit even on slower roads while going up hill. The
batteries were/are used and at some point will need replacing. We don't
know how to put the parts into a new cab should we get another one.
So, lastly, we can't afford to do all of the things the truck needs and make
payments on it, which we have been feeling badly about. Do you have any
suggestions? It makes me really sad to think of driving a gas truck or car
again when I know electric is a possibility. But we can't afford all of the
truck's needs to make it work and make the payments too. This reason,
finally, is why we called and said that we thought we should bring it back
to you, but we keep thinking about it and wishing that we could do
something to make this work.
Let us know if you have any suggestions so that we might continue with this
one more life boat.
..------------------------------------------------------------
I'd be happy with $200 month. It has a pfc 20 charger , dcp controller ,
Its on the www.grassrootsev.com web site
http://www.grassrootsev.com/convert.htm for 8k but for you today 5.7k which
could be made in payment. I would be happy to keep any of the EV parts and
knok off there price off the total.
steve clunn _
>
> Hey, can't hurt to ask.
>
>
and so I did
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
>
> Tim Humphrey
> Central NY
>
>
> P.S. the phrase is... "Giving up the ghost" .... as in dead, the soul
> leaving the body.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How many watts are required to push this vehicle at terminal velocity?
36 AHr at 31.5 volts is 1134 Watt Hours to return to the battery on a full
charge. With a 150 watt charger, it will take 7 hours to recharge. This is
right where NiCd and NiMh batteries do not like to charge. There is barely
enough current to make a peak charger work, barely enough current to make a
temperature detector work but plenty of power to vent the cells once they
fill up.
Since you are not going to be doing a lot of cycles on this rig (burning man
does not happen every weekend) you can abuse the cells for a couple dozen
cycles then recycle them.
One caution, do not charge NiCd cells in parallel. Once the first string
fills up, it gets hot and hogs all the current making it pull more current,
making it get hotter, until something melts. I have seen a set of NiCd cells
get not enough to melt solder when a charger malfunctioned.
It would be best if you charged the strings with separate current regulators
and discharged them through an isolator. It would also be best to use a very
sensitive peak detector and a very sensitive temperature detector on each
string to try to tell when it is fully charged. You may experience a lot of
false end of charge indications.
The seven hour rate is not a nice power point for detecting NiCd or NiMH end
of charge. Manufacturers generally recommend a one hour or ten hour rate.
The one hour rate gives a very strong indication of full charge. The ten
hour rate gives very little indication of end of charge but is not enough
current to make the cells vent.
You might try charging three strings at the one hour rate and then do three
more strings at once, sequencing through seven sets of three until all the
strings are done. This will give a very positive end of charge indicator or
each string. The caveat is you might not get all the strings equally charged
if the sequence is interrupted and you start running the vehicle before the
last strings are done.
A better solution might be to use (borrow if necessary) a 24 volt flooded
NiCd battery. They behave better on charge and are about the right size and
weight for your application. Someone was giving some away a while back. They
might still be available.
Good luck with your project.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 9:57 PM
Subject: mooncar on NiCads
> Hello EV wizards,
> I have a special use ev (under 5 mph at all times, weight of 200# +2
> riders + 2 deepcycle 12v floodeds)
> totally flat dusty soft surface - burning man)
> photos here > http://www.jollyone.com/artcar-index.html
>
> I found a cheap source of c cell nicads ($.58 cents each)
>
> I wanted to replace the leadacid bats with the Nicads for
> 1. less weight
> 2. better power to weight ratio
>
> I wanted to do a quick reality check here on my numbers.
> I am using the EV Warrior motor and controller (it works fine, even the
> damn horn)
> I considered making 43" ABS tubes with 21 C cells end-to-end. 24V @
1.8ahr
> 20 of these would give me 36 ahr (plenty for my needs)
>
> We drive for a couple of hours each day, then charge with 2 75watt solar
> panels
>
> Will the long tube "module" work? (beefy springs at each end, with
> silver conductive paste
> in between each bat) 12GA "Deans" wire from each module to the main
> power block.
>
> And while you are thinking, any suggestions for charging?
>
> jolly roger
>
> >>>
> >>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the only thing I don't know in reality is the max continuious amp
draw I can use. Ed Ang was saying something like 90 amps per string. Well
that doesn't seem right. He was using 1/5 inch thick buss bars made of pure
nickel that were 1.1 inches wide. Way overkill. I am sure I can cut copper
from a sheet and make 1/16 inch X 3/4 inch and be safe. I'd have them
nickel plated. I think I can even buy the buss bars on the internet and
drill my own holes. I have a lot of options but the amp draw is the only
thing I can't figure out. The manufacturer says they will give over 1000
amps but Ed said I couldn't draw more than 90 amps continuous. The
Manufacturer says the information is confidential because of the military
aspect. I sure would like to know the truth here. Ed is very cautious. I
think I will try to get the proper specs from Marathon & hope they don't
hold back. They have been good so far. I'm cautious too but I can't see
how a battery that puts out 1000 amps would be hurt by a 150 amp continuous
draw which is what the Electra Van will do max. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 4:11 PM
Subject: RE: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare
me.
Is there something new in this that you didn't already know? These cells
are made for very high discharge rates, so you have to be careful with
them. The hardware prices he is quoting you are what airplane
manufacturers have to pay for things brand new. The aircraft industry
needs things manufactured to very exacting specs, and they pay for that.
You can use anything you want as interconnects as long as they meet your
needs. One thing you did know going into this is that watering would be a
major pain. It's not that bad however if you have good access to the
cells. I can water the 44 cells on my motorcycle in about a half hour.
That would translate into a full afternoon project for you, but they don't
need watering that often. My tools consist of a taped up hex wrench and a
childrens medicine syringe with a piece of 10 guage wire insulation on the
end which inserts into the cell. If you are planning on having the FAA
come out and inspect your EV then you might need some special training and
sophisticated equipment. If not simply charge them up and go for a ride.
You've already gotten enough information from this list to keep them
healthy for a very long time.
damon
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Zappylist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare me.
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:01:02 -0700
I inquired to Marathon about the BB600 batteries. I don't know weather to
cry, sell them to John Wayland or buy a Zilla from Otmar. Lawrence
Rhodes.........
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:19 PM
Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
Lawrence,
I think that you should understand a little more about what you have on
your hands. These are not a typical nickel cadmium cell. They are
manufactured to perform in very extreme environments as found on tactical
(fighter) aircraft. They are designed to put out 1,000 to 1,800 amps per
cell. The list price for these cells is $466 each. From your response I
can see that you have done some research on basic, low cost, low quality,
low drain, battery systems - these are not in that category. Adding things
such as mineral oil would not only not be of any benefit it could be
dangerous. Automatic watering systems are used in low end systems and
should never be used with these cells. The addition of water to these
cells should only be done under very controlled circumstances and only by
a trained technician. Charging should only be done with an approved
aviation grade charger. A special plastic wrench (P/N 16979-001, $24.27
ea.) is used for the removal of the vent caps. The intercell connectors
are copper / nickel plated have a list price range from $12.93 to $8.75
each. The screws are $5.10 each. and you will need both a "Bellville" and
a flat washer for each terminal. And you will need the appropriate
temperature sensing system. In short you have some very expensive cells
that should not be used for the application that you suggest. DO NOT use
them with homemade hardware. DO NOT experiment with them unless you get
some training or consult a trained engineer. If you decide to dispose of
them please do so in a safe manner, depositing them in the garbage is not
only illegal it is very dangerous. If you need any further assistance
please call me.
Best regards,
Tom Elkjer
254-741-5410
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:55 PM
To: Tom Elkjer
Subject: Re: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
I am using them to drive an electric car. They were sold as surplus. It
will be three units of one hundred each. If I can get the orginal buss
plates, screws etc.. Is there an automatic watering system. I would be
interested.I also need tools to take off the caps to add water and I heard
a
few drops of mineral oil in each cell has some benefit. Any information
about maintainance and charging as well as what kind of charger to use
would
be beneficial. I was thinking a plastic wrench or socket would be used to
take the caps off. . Make things safer. Thank you Tom. Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
The BB600A/A is a military battery designed for use on military aircraft.
Documents on these batteries and their components are controlled and not
available to the general public. I don't quite understand what you are
doing. I assume that you have acquired some surplus military batteries.
Are
you going to try to assemble 3 units of 10 cells each into a subset to be
charged in parallel? And then assemble 10 subsets into 1 120VDC battery?
Why? What are you doing?
Best regards,
Tom Elkjer
254-741-5410
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:12 PM
To: Tom Elkjer
Subject: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
Is there still documentation on these batteries? I want to assemble them
into 120v strings. I will have three strings. Can I use one charger to
charge these in parallel? That will be 300 battery cells at 1040
pounds.
Thanks Tom. Lawrence Rhodes.........
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi All
Playing today with the 11 inch Hitachi series motor I picked up last week.
Amongst its problems it has no output shaft (additionaly the brush-end
housing is broken and it needs bearings). I have pulled the rotor out of it
and pulled the fan off the rotor (If I use it I would be using an external
blower).
The vent slots for the fan were in the part of the end housing that is an
extension of the body cylinder. By having a new end plate made that has the
vent slots through the end, with the bearing re-mounted further in where
the fan was, there would be some 45 to 50mm of shaft left exposed (nearly
2"). A taperlock would be able to go onto this part. I was surprised at how
much would actually be exposed by doing this.
My shaft seems to have been broken at the end of a hardened section, so
what is left can be machined (I can mark it with a file). If the motor in
question had a hardened shaft, I would have to get it ground instead of
machined to remount the bearing. Since there will be a new end plate, the
bearing does not need to be the same as what came out. If this motor were
to be used with a clutch, a high-sideload capable bearing could be used.
Hopefully this will encourage someone to explore ways to use motors that
they already have laid around.
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a perm. magnet motor that I'm using for a go-kart for my son (and
for me, of course). What kind of controller do I use for this? Would a
PWM controller for serial motors work?
With the above in mind, does anybody have a schematic/parts list for a
controller that I could use to build one myself? I'm looking for
something meeting (or exceeding) the following specs: 12-48V, 20A
continuous (50-60A peak), reverse switch, and regen would be a nice
plus. Could I build it for less than I could buy a pre-built
controller?
Thanks,
Lonnie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This was on the Elec Trak list.
Looks like a cheap solution for an EV starter project
(go cart or E motorcycle).
Rod
--- Paul Cianciolo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: "Paul Cianciolo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 20:11:40 -0400
> Subject: (ET) FS 25 VDC large Perm Mag motor... For
> attachment?
>
> Hello FOlks,
>
> I am not sure this is applicable here but someone
> may be able to use this
> motor for a drive implement for one of the
> electraks.
> Sorry if its too far off topic. I have a few DC
> shunts and things to sell
> as well
>
>
> I have the following DC motor for sale. I used it
> for an electric Go cart
> for the kids
>
> The motor is made by Vapor Corp of Alabama. It was
> the drive for an AC
> system
>
> Here is a description of the motor
>
> 24 VDC = 1600 Rpm
> 12 VDC = 800 RPM
>
> Those are tachometer measured numbers, no load.
>
> The motor weighs 31 LBS before packing
>
> Over all it is 12" long
>
> The body is 8.5" long
>
> The diameter is 6.5 "
>
> The shaft diameter is 3/4" and it is 4" long.
>
> The mount is welded to the case, the mount flange
> started to crack a few
> inches from the motor body, but was welded back and
> used for a year or so
> after that.
>
> Power input via studs on frame
>
> This would make a great wind generator or drive
> motor.
>
> $75.00 plus shipping from 06791
>
> inquire at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elec-trak mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
https://cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sounds like Marathon is trying to distance themselves from your lawyer.
Don't expect much support.....
Did you get the manual I sent?
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Turn the table....
Have him prove his position.(with facts)..he won't be able too. As a
consequence he'll be more convicted to the EV cause for being misled by
the "opposition".
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
Stay Charged!
Hump
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of greg head
> Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 10:43 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Hydrogen fuel
>
>
>
> I have an (automotive) colleague that sees pure electric as bunkum and
> hydrogen (hybrids) as the only answer.
>
> I lack the experience to debunk it? Anyone care to share a link?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Greg Head
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you know that 150 amps continuous is the max you will be drawing out of
them then test some at 150 amps. I test all my cells at 120 amps. I like
this number because it means that every 30 seconds of discharge equals 1ahr
of capacity. I cut off the test when the cell drops to 900mv. My test
equipment consists of two 50 amp jumper cable clamps with each one connected
to a short piece of 4 guage cable. The two pieces of 4 guage cable are
connected with some 18 guage wire to complete the circuit. I started with a
long piece of the 18 guage and kept cutting it back until I got an average
current draw of 120 amps. The 18 guage wire goes in a small bucket of
water. The jumper cable clamps get pretty warm at 120 amps. If you
discharge a cell, and it hasn't heated up, then you know it is fine at 150
amps. Since your cells are similar to mine, I would guess that they will
warm up some, but not to the point that you have anything to worry about.
Since I don't know what state my cells are in when I first get them, this
has proven to be effective at weeding out the ones I don't want. I spent
some time trying other methods of testing and decided that even though doing
things this way takes 15 - 20 minutes per cell, it works best for me. Of
course with the simplicity of the test equipment I can easily make more then
one and test mutiple cells at the same time. The thing that did not work
well for me was trying to test a series string of cells all at once.
For interconnects I was lucky and scrounged some very nice nickel plated
copper buss bar that was lying around at work. They have to keep some on
hand in case a UPS battery self destructs, but the facilities guy had way
more then he ever envisioned needing and gave me about 15 feet. I cut it
using a hack saw and drilled holes with my drill press.
damon
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare
me.
Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:49:27 -0700
I think the only thing I don't know in reality is the max continuious amp
draw I can use. Ed Ang was saying something like 90 amps per string. Well
that doesn't seem right. He was using 1/5 inch thick buss bars made of
pure nickel that were 1.1 inches wide. Way overkill. I am sure I can cut
copper from a sheet and make 1/16 inch X 3/4 inch and be safe. I'd have
them nickel plated. I think I can even buy the buss bars on the internet
and drill my own holes. I have a lot of options but the amp draw is the
only thing I can't figure out. The manufacturer says they will give over
1000 amps but Ed said I couldn't draw more than 90 amps continuous. The
Manufacturer says the information is confidential because of the military
aspect. I sure would like to know the truth here. Ed is very cautious. I
think I will try to get the proper specs from Marathon & hope they don't
hold back. They have been good so far. I'm cautious too but I can't see
how a battery that puts out 1000 amps would be hurt by a 150 amp continuous
draw which is what the Electra Van will do max. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message ----- From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 4:11 PM
Subject: RE: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare
me.
Is there something new in this that you didn't already know? These cells
are made for very high discharge rates, so you have to be careful with
them. The hardware prices he is quoting you are what airplane
manufacturers have to pay for things brand new. The aircraft industry
needs things manufactured to very exacting specs, and they pay for that.
You can use anything you want as interconnects as long as they meet your
needs. One thing you did know going into this is that watering would be a
major pain. It's not that bad however if you have good access to the
cells. I can water the 44 cells on my motorcycle in about a half hour.
That would translate into a full afternoon project for you, but they don't
need watering that often. My tools consist of a taped up hex wrench and a
childrens medicine syringe with a piece of 10 guage wire insulation on the
end which inserts into the cell. If you are planning on having the FAA
come out and inspect your EV then you might need some special training and
sophisticated equipment. If not simply charge them up and go for a ride.
You've already gotten enough information from this list to keep them
healthy for a very long time.
damon
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Zappylist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Fw: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries: Warning or just trying to scare me.
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:01:02 -0700
I inquired to Marathon about the BB600 batteries. I don't know weather
to cry, sell them to John Wayland or buy a Zilla from Otmar. Lawrence
Rhodes.........
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:19 PM
Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
Lawrence,
I think that you should understand a little more about what you have on
your hands. These are not a typical nickel cadmium cell. They are
manufactured to perform in very extreme environments as found on tactical
(fighter) aircraft. They are designed to put out 1,000 to 1,800 amps per
cell. The list price for these cells is $466 each. From your response I
can see that you have done some research on basic, low cost, low quality,
low drain, battery systems - these are not in that category. Adding
things such as mineral oil would not only not be of any benefit it could
be dangerous. Automatic watering systems are used in low end systems and
should never be used with these cells. The addition of water to these
cells should only be done under very controlled circumstances and only by
a trained technician. Charging should only be done with an approved
aviation grade charger. A special plastic wrench (P/N 16979-001, $24.27
ea.) is used for the removal of the vent caps. The intercell connectors
are copper / nickel plated have a list price range from $12.93 to $8.75
each. The screws are $5.10 each. and you will need both a "Bellville" and
a flat washer for each terminal. And you will need the appropriate
temperature sensing system. In short you have some very expensive cells
that should not be used for the application that you suggest. DO NOT use
them with homemade hardware. DO NOT experiment with them unless you get
some training or consult a trained engineer. If you decide to dispose of
them please do so in a safe manner, depositing them in the garbage is not
only illegal it is very dangerous. If you need any further assistance
please call me.
Best regards,
Tom Elkjer
254-741-5410
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:55 PM
To: Tom Elkjer
Subject: Re: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
I am using them to drive an electric car. They were sold as surplus. It
will be three units of one hundred each. If I can get the orginal buss
plates, screws etc.. Is there an automatic watering system. I would be
interested.I also need tools to take off the caps to add water and I
heard a
few drops of mineral oil in each cell has some benefit. Any information
about maintainance and charging as well as what kind of charger to use
would
be beneficial. I was thinking a plastic wrench or socket would be used
to
take the caps off. . Make things safer. Thank you Tom. Lawrence
Rhodes....
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Elkjer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 11:29 AM
Subject: RE: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
The BB600A/A is a military battery designed for use on military aircraft.
Documents on these batteries and their components are controlled and not
available to the general public. I don't quite understand what you are
doing. I assume that you have acquired some surplus military batteries.
Are
you going to try to assemble 3 units of 10 cells each into a subset to be
charged in parallel? And then assemble 10 subsets into 1 120VDC battery?
Why? What are you doing?
Best regards,
Tom Elkjer
254-741-5410
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, October 25, 2004 1:12 PM
To: Tom Elkjer
Subject: BB 600 Ni Cad batteries
Is there still documentation on these batteries? I want to assemble them
into 120v strings. I will have three strings. Can I use one charger to
charge these in parallel? That will be 300 battery cells at 1040
pounds.
Thanks Tom. Lawrence Rhodes.........
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