EV Digest 3880
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Battery at Zero volts?
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Reinhard, Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Brake Retraction Springs
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV book
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: variable re-gen
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Brake Retraction Springs Quote
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EVLN(Union Pacific Low-Emission Green Goat Locomotives)
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery at Zero volts?
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Charging in San Jose downtown
by Ed Blackmond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: OT: EV NiMh batteries Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Battery at Zero volts?
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Brake Retraction Springs Quote
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bringing the Voltage to zero (or less than 1.75 Volts per cell) causes
some cells to reverse polarity. Reversing polarity causes irreversible
damage by chemical and physical changes in the active material of the
plates i.e. yo cannot uncook a cooked egg.. For instance if the lead
dioxide becomes lead by reversal then it looses its porosity and
morphology such that it cannot function as a health plate and the active
material will fall off and will go bad very fast.
You cannot revive dead batteries by these old wives tales: by , washing,
refilling etc. O sure you will get a little bit of the original capacity
after doing all that giving some the impression that it worked, but the
battery is really dead. and cannot be revived. It is best to bite the
bullet and get a new set.
Sincerely
Nawaz Qureshi
For years we have been arguing this point, that once a battery is flat, it
ain't coming back. Didn't know why, just knew from experience. We tell our
customers that they have to trickle charge batteries that have gone below
10volts (wet/start batteries), to avoid damage. Nobody ever listens though.
Well I shouldn't say that, they do after they burn up a $200.00 alternator
trying to charge their fixed flat battery.
Thanks for the big words (I will use them with care), and maybe now some of
my customers will listen the first time. LOL.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Thurber wrote:
Hate to drag this topic, but
that's not true either. If you tripple the size of
the tank itself you
can go 3 times
as far, but the weight does not increase 3 times
since the pumps, hoses,
blowers
and all supporting stuff are still the same. Si you
can always get the
tank large
enough to outdo NiMH batteries, the largerthe tank
compare to everything
else - the bigger FC advantage weight/energy wise.
Victor
You're assuming the tank weight and size is negligable
compared to the vehicle. That's not true. H2 tanks are
We were comparing batteries as energy storage with a fuel cell
as energy storage and compare weights of those *energy storage systems*,
not the potential cars they can be installed in, will they fit ot not.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Thurber wrote:
> As far as I know, there were only two companies that made NiMH
> batteries for production EV's.
Quite a few companies have made large nimh cells; Saft, Sanyo, and Varta
come to mind, and I'm sure there are others. Many have been used in
various-sized EVs (everything from bicycles to large trucks). But, most
have been experimental projects. I suspect Ovonic and Panasonic may have
been the largest producers to date, though their production numbers are
still pretty small.
The life of these nimh has been varied; some long, some short. Nimh
producers have been plagued by highly variable results, which required a
lot of testing and sorting to get a "good" pack. They are still learning
what process details are important, what impurities are bad, what kind
of battery management system is required, etc.
Ovonic, for example, hand built all their cells, and depended on
hand-picking and carefully matching them to get a good pack. This is
exceedingly costly. It also means poor repeatability. One pack gets
matched for great capacity, but turns out to have poor life. The next is
matched for low internal resistance, but has low capacity.
Japanese companies (like Panasonic) tend to be very good at doing things
*precisely* the same way every time. They don't have the high peak
performance of hand-picked cells; but their performance can be very
consistent. This matters a lot if you expect to mass produce them
someday.
> Since they are the only game in town, they are hardly a red herring
> or even just one data point. They are the whole story. I'm not sure
> where you get the idea that it's unproven generalities either.
What I meant is that just because one type of Panasonic nimh lasted a
long time does not mean that nimh cells *in general* last a long time.
It only means that this particular model cell has been optimized for
long life.
Actually, most nimh cells are *short* lived. The average nimh doesn't
last as long as the average nicad. And, really long-life nicads exist;
we have examples that are many decades old and still work.
Likewise, most lead-acid batteries have short life because they are
optimized to be cheap, not long-lived. But there are counter examples.
Oldham tubular plate flooded lead-acids easily last for decades. They
are widely used in industrial EVs. There was a Swedish EVer, I think,
who bought a set of *used* ones, and had put something like 160,000
miles on them.
And, there is nickel-iron (also called the Edison cell). There are
examples of these that are nearly 100 years old, and still working.
> Pansonic's EV batteries did not contain any toxic metals in their
> "witches brew" (exotic is a little more difficult to define).
> I said they were almost edible as a joke, but it is almost true.
According to the MSDS they contain nickel, iron, cobalt, manganese,
aluminum, zinc, undisclosed lanthanides, potassium hydroxide, water, and
minor amounts of other materials. It would be very bad to eat even one
AA nimh cell!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of >Rich Rudman
>Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:44 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
>There are folks on this list that know....
>How easy is it to do a H2 fill up???
As easy as CNG
>How easy do the nozzeles mate?
See above
>how easy is it really? And how long does it take once mated?
About two seconds depending on whose dispenser you are using.
>What's the Stop to Go time frame for a fillup?
For about 4 kilos about 3.5 minutes.
If the tank would develop a leak, the empty time is about 2.5 seconds.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I'm trying to decrease drag. The springs were listed in a previous
email as a way to reduce the amount of energy consumed by the car and
therefore increase range. The other day when I had the front of my car
jacked up I turned one of the front wheels and noticed that the pads
were dragging on the rotor, therefore the question. I thought that the
person who suggested the springs might be able to describe how to hook
them up. Or, maybe someone else can.
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/26/04 5:37:57 PM >>>
Are you trying decrease drag? The pads, pistons and such are retracted
by
the rubber seals on the ends of the cylinders and pistons. You could
try
using a warped rotor, one that will "push" the pistons back into the
cylinders, but that presents a whole new problem. Disc brakes are
designed
for the pad to be at the disc surface at all times, dragging. The total
volume of all the wheel cylinders in the system is huge, compared to
the
volume of the master cylinder. Therefore, the pistons in the caliper
barely
move, while the master cylinder moves a great deal, relatively
speaking. If
there is a too large an air gap between the disc and rotor, the master
cylinder may go "to the floor" without applying enough pressure to the
rotor
to stop. Anyone here that has experience in these matters, feel free to
contradict, corroborate or just chime in.
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 3:26 PM
Subject: Brake Retraction Springs
> How do I rig brake retraction springs on front disk brakes?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Patrick Maston
> 1981 Jet Electrica
> ut
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
was that the "the new electric vehicles , a clean and quiet revolution" by
Michael Hackieman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:40 PM
Subject: EV book
>
> One of y'all sent me the title of an out-of-print book on EV construction.
Would you please send it to me again? I can't get at the earlier message
(long story) and would like to do some searching tonight when I have access
to a fast Internet hookup.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Eric S
> Germantown TN
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Speed up your surfing with Juno SpeedBand.
> Now includes pop-up blocker!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit http://www.juno.com/surf to sign up today!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
John G. Lussmyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ahh, but you are comparing Apples and Pomegranates.
H2 car - you drive to a station, stand in the rain, and wait
while it's filled. Walk through the rain to pay.
EV car - you go home, plug in, and go eat dinner. Ignore
until morning.
Nope. Rich's vision is (or at least I understood it to be) of there
being EV quick charge 'pumps' at public refueling stations alongside
those for H2, CNG, LPG, diesel, gasoline, etc.
Apples to apples: if you are standing in the rain to refuel your ICE or
FCEV, you are also standing in the rain to refuel your EV. And, you
walk the same distance to pay for said fillup.
Plugging in at home and ignoring until morning is the EV status quo; it
works just fine when you have a small capacity pack and/or don't drive
far each day, but this discussion is about EVs going head-to-head with
FCEVs in terms of miles driven per day. It simply isn't practical, in
general, to expect EVers to run home each time they need a charge, even
if they have a fast charger there.
Cheers,
Roger.
I agree with Roger here 100%.
I have real life 70Ah pack at 320V *average*
over the course of discharge, this is 22.4kWh pack.
Not very big. But at 250 Wh/mile it has ~90 miles
potential before goes flat.
I use to watch Ah counter to get a feel whether
I can make it home if I go here or there.
Now I'm not worried, because I don't drive even
40 miles a day with ALL my normal activities.
And, I drive normally - 65...75 mph and
wavy hills common here.
So why worry about opportunity charging? And,
if I have all night, why worry about fast charging
either?
You pay for convenience. Either by buying
expensive pack lasting your day easily, or buying
cheaper low capacity one but fast charger and hope
to keep plugging in along your ways to extend
usefulness of your EV. Not as convenient
(but doable), but cost less too.
It's about *your* priorities. I wish you can
have high capacity fast chargeable pack,
AND now AND cheap. Reality is, you may die waiting.
So if you want to drive your EV today, you must
pick any two out of above three qualities, and allow
the third one to go wild. Or, compromize on all 3
based on own priorities, which is what all of us
essentially doing.
Victor
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> We were comparing batteries as energy storage with a fuel
> cell as energy storage and compare weights of those *energy
> storage systems*, not the potential cars they can be
> installed in, will they fit ot not.
Not quite true. We are most definitely comparing the merits of these
competing energy storage mechanisms in the context of their application
to practical vehicles.
PbA batteries are available today that will allow >300mi range, but they
are too large and heavy to fit in a car. They are no more interesting
to discuss than how long one might run a fuel cell given a tank the size
of the average home. ;^>
If battery EVs are to compete with FCEVs, what is interesting is how far
a battery EV can go on the energy that can be stored in a battery that
*can* fit onboard vs how far a FCEV can go on the H2 that it *can* store
onboard. Or, more generally, how far each can be driven in a day (to
allow for differences in refill duration and frequency since the
vehicles will likely store different amounts of energy onboard and
travel different distances on a fillup).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As always Roger you have some good points, and missed some of the angles
that I am trying to make a point of.
The Warmth level needs to be brought back from flame to a good heat...
point by point:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 12:27 PM
Subject: RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > > You can't fill sealed PbA in just a few minutes no matter how
> > > big the hose;
> >
> > Like Duhh Roger!!!!
> > Why do you think I said the Vlim, not the complete
> > end of charge point.
>
> You and I know this, but it isn't necessarily obvious to everyone else.
> When we're talking about how far one can go on a 'fill-up', the
> difference between getting 80% full in a few minutes and getting 100%
> full in the same time can be significant.
Understood but by your tone, you are making it look like I don't know
these facts.
This places me into looking like have no data or time doing just what I
am proposing.
Fast simple charging.
>
> > > The time to safely connect/disconnect for a 36kW drink is probably
> > > going to be similar to that required for an H2 hose,
> > Not so! It takes about 15 Seconds to make the
> > conenction. Stop open Hood slam the Anderson home, Flip
> > breaker on the charger Crank up Amps knob.
>
> Are we talking about what is possible today, or what the situation will
> be when you or I, or Granny, can pull into a public filling station with
> an EV or FCEV and fill up?
>
The above is the procedure for the Monster charger as it sits right now.
It's just a PFC50 wired into a 37.5 Kw Iso former and direct wired to a
100 amp set of breakers.
The BMS is not hooked up... the Regs light up I crank it down, or adjust
the software should I berunning the Monster Code controller.
Yes you can hurt the Yts... and Yes I am working on some more cables to
get the RegBuss wired back to the Monster.... 50ft Regbuss cables, have to
be made...
BMS. no BMS later...see below.
> I'm talking about the latter, and I fully believe that in order for H2
> or EV filling stations to be publicly acceptable, both will have to be
> quick and easy to use. I don't see any big reason for major differences
> between CNG and H2 pump connections or procedures.
>
I do... it's the H2 hazzards and pressures. Much the same as a really well
done charger PORT....the stinger will be cold during the make and break
event. The H2 might just need to be depressurized for the make and break
sequence.
Clearly I have not done a high level Ev charger port. Most have serious
drawbacks in layers of undue safety, and regs on top of regs. Resulting in
$K of custom engineering, and uslessness.
So.. this has caused us to question the viability of all the present 200 amp
plus charger port configurations. To keep from going stark raving Nuts... I
have just defined the charger to the output + and - Bolts.
The actual Port will de decided by my client, after we beat the Cr__ out of
what ever we need to test. If one works well, we will use it.
> An Anderson is not going to be an acceptable connection for the general
> public, and particularly not for Granny.
Granny can plug in a 14-50 on her Motor home in a Thunderstorm at night....
That's the level of competence I am aiming at.
>
> > You clearly have not seen the Madman show at the
> > Woodburn races.
>
> True; events beyond my control have prevented me from attending for the
> last couple years :(
It's rather chaotic Zoo of 2 to 6 Evs all wanting to be filled as fast
as possible, and the operator wants to race also....
A lota Evs get charged in a 30 minute block......
>
> > As some one just posted Roger... the Anti static suit
> > the special fittings the time to transfer the H2... all not
> > as clearly evident could be.
>
> And not at all evident that they are required. Aircraft refueling is
> also subject to anti-static precautions: the fuel jockey clips a ground
> lead from the fuel pump to the airframe prior to pulling the fuel hose
> over and inserting it into the filler nozzle. Why should H2 require so
> much more elaborate procedures?
Jp4 and 5 can't flash at room temps. And they still have stringinent Anti
static precautions...
Umm Yea and H2 is the MOST flamable Gas....in the widest Air h2
ratios.
This is going to be it's Achillies heel....
>
> I think that in these relatively early days of vehicular H2 use there is
> a bit more paranoia about the dangers of H2 than are really justified...
>
I agree. We are already dealing with the paranoia if Iso or NON iso
chargers....Most of us are not dead yet... so the Non iso is a seriously
over blown risk.
> > The longer argument is... how much H2 do they
> > have... and how often does it need a monster Refer Cryo truck
> > to service it?
>
> I don't see why this is of any more relevance or interest than the
> capacity of our present gas stations' holding tanks and how often they
> are refilled. The station will have tanks of sufficent capacity that
> they won't run out between refills; we don't care how big the tanks are
> or how often they are refilled, all we care about is that we can fill
> up.
>
This is the part you don't see. I bet there is not very many H2 Cryo
tankers rolling around. N2.. yea O2 yea..... CO2...yea.... 10Kpsi H2....Ummm
Say I want 20,000 lbs of H2 delivered to my door step. When... and how long
do they laugh after they hang up the Phone.
The PSE(Puget Sound Energy) guy.... just told me he had 100s of Kw available
about 100 Ft from my transformer bank at the shop.
30Kv feeds to the primarys are that close, and they are building a new
lumber yard 24 hour shipping Facility on the far side of the Site that
Manzantia Micro Production is on.
So should I need 480 3 phase in 150Kw lots, it's not a issue. I just
talked to the Man.
> > Clearly Goldie is NOT the Ev for this argument... She is
> > NOT intended for range running. Still I can get a LOT of
> > miles under her in a Day.
>
> Absolutely! I'm certainly not arguing that quick recharge capability is
> not a good thing.
>
> > > If you want to compete with the FCEV refill time, your EV needs to
> > > have a battery capable of storing enough energy to take it
> > > a similar distance
No, you just need to stuff in the need power to get the range.
I doubt the H2 will use exactly the same power levels that I do.
The BEV has stored energy, I get it to the ground in %70 to %90 lots.
Less if I am vaporizing Rubber compounds.....
The H2, might have to have a high pressure pump to stuff it in the
Car... using lots of Grid to run the pump.
He also will get only %40 to %60 of the H2's energy to the DC rail
on the outside of the PEM stackm, then he has the same EV drive train losses
I do.
With 10Kw of Orbitals on line in goldie....That's a 50 mile range, and a
good alignment, and Cookie cutter Green tires.... Goldie will run at 200
Whrs a mile...
I just might have better range than the same sized and weight FCev.
So.... I am betting that I will be a LOT more competitive than most
think.
I have had 1300 lbs of AGMs in Goldie... 1300 lbs of Kokams....a 36Kw feed
port.... and well heaven will have something like that waiting for me.
You run into the brutal fact that the drive train will over heat if you
try to blow this amount of power through it in one hour.
> > >
> > No you don't have to compete stored watt to stored watt. You
> > compete for miles run in Days of service.
>
> True, but if we compare apples-to-apples, that is, Granny refueling her
> FCEV and Grampa charging his battery EV, both at a public filling
> station, then it looks very much like Grampa needs to have a battery
> pack that can take his EV close to the same distance as Granny's H2 tank
> if he wants to cover the same distance in a day simply because as the
> time spent actually filling the vehicle decreases, the time spent
> connecting/disconnecting and paying, etc. becomes more significant.
Stop, slam in the connector, Swipe card, Hit pump, Dial up some Rock and
roll...Watch the counter spin backwards... Regs hit ... let them have 60
more seconds.. Hop out disconnect... Leave
Clarly there will be some intellegence in the system keeping the big amps
from being opened up under load or being plugged into a dead short.
>
> No matter how big the hose gets, minimising the number of fillups
> required is always going to result in more time available for
> accumulating miles.
>
> > Uhhhhh Roger just who do you think you are arguing
> > with???? Maybe the Guy doing the BMS????
>
> Regs aren't exactly a BMS ;^>
>
> > Clearly I have
> > thought of that and have product to cover that fact. The Regs
> > crank back the charger. And the nastier the charge rate the
> > faster the safties better work. Expect me to have that rather
> > well tested.
>
BMS... clearly Regs hooked to a Charger are a BMS, Of sorts, and well they
do the %90 of the work for %10 of the cost. Not a bad engineering point to
meet.
The Regbuss, and the new Mk2B regs have a nifty feed back signal that lets
you forget to set the main charger down, and the Regs themselves signal the
charger to pull back the Current hammer.
Joe has done many charges without the voltage regulation channel going
active on the main charger. This is the substack signal that lets you slam
the power to the battery stack, and not worry about hurting any one
battery... when the regs go active, the charger immediatley starts to pull
back, not a couple of minutes later, as has been the recent control
strategy.
And... a on board on board PFC??? has all this already installed.
Should you be useing a Avcon AC port, Then I assume that all the goodies are
installed.
The monster charger..... Well yea we do need to connect the Regbuss to
the charger.... and then we Do have a BMS.
Regs alone won't save a thing with a charger greater than about 5Kw.
> You've stated that your fast charge process consists of popping the hood
> and connecting *an Anderson*... just how are you connecting the regs to
> the charger and testing this all with just a 2-way connection between
> the pack and charger?
>
I am not... but I have the voltage set on the monster charger to taper
back.....Just before the regs go active...With skill you don't hurt the Yts
or the Regs... but you have to beaware. With the Regbuss hooked up and
active, you can walk away from it...
Like Goldie is right now....
> What happens if one or more regs is dead or disconnected, etc.? Does
> the charger simply continue blindly, or does it not start at all? Maybe
> you've got more going on in your "skunk works" than the general public
> (I) know about, but I'm not sure that what we do know about is ready for
> prime time, widespread public use in this application.
The simple thing is if the charger is set to say...191 volts, and the
Regs are set to 14.8...Should a reg not do it's thing... the charger doesn't
really get to far ahead of the game. It could if you have a really out of
equalization Battery... but generally... the abuse is minor. If you had the
charger set to 240 volts.... and no regs... Danger Will Robinson Danger!!
It kinda goes like this:
No voltage regualtion no Regs, You won't get even one cycle done
without damage.
Voltage regulation, and no regs.. On AGMs 20 to 50 cycles before you
have YTs dropping out of line from over/Under charge
Vreg plus Regs, You will make the published specs on the %100 DOD
sheet from the Manufacturer.
Vreg, Regs, Regbuss, time equalizing on every charge(15 minutes),
1000s of cycles....Batteries die from old age effects not under/over
charging effects.
Vreg, Regs, Regbuss, controller charger feed back to limit depth of
discharge... Well it looks rather promising... I am not going to guess in
public.
And all this from a BMS that has no Micro....and is a crude... BMS.... I get
sneered at... but it works....
The one or more dead regs can be tested for... on the monster charger...
there better be ways of finding open or fails, and remember that the regs
work under the voltage llimits set in the monster charger.
So... they can only get so far out...The monster charger... does have a PC
on it's control side.... ONLY the monster charger has this.. and we are
still adding software and control lines to cover the needed data points.
Clearly.. it will be Regbuss aware. And the Regbuss has two lines that will
support Serial com for doing data Ak from a Digi reg(aka Mk3 series regs).
The hooks are there, we just need to hook them up and write the code.
>
> > By the way you only get 3 cycles on a Yt before you have race
> > ready Yts.... aka 120 Deg F Lead!.
>
> Good point; will your regs prevent the charger from trying to fast
> charge a pack that is too hot? What happens to your quick recharge time
> when you pull up to the pump with a hot pack? Do the regs detect hot
> modules and throttle back the charger if any hit the thermal limit while
> charging? Can the charger query the vehicle's regs to confirm that the
> proper number for the pack voltage exist, and that each and every one is
> alive, monitoring module voltage and temperature accurately, and is
> capable of halting the charger *prior* to jamming big amps into the
> pack?
>
Umm EVERY issue has not been solve Roger.
Gimme some time to get it all hammered together.
Yes all Regs with a Regbuss have a analog temp sensor port. It can be used
with a properley located NTC to detect a high battery temp.
This is a EV build up question. It's a EV specific issue. If somebody
hands me a battery pack... with a BMS in it, I intend to support what
signals are needed to be passed onto the charger.
Now you are talking about a all encompassing BMS... it does everything...
and that's a very large project... as daunting as a 36Kw power stage and
control.
This is DOS, NOT XP with a lapdog to guide you around.
Clearly if the system is broken.. it won't catch all the data points. The
technitions better find the open wires and test the data paths...
But as always.... you digress from the main points.
We count on you Roger to slightly sidestep the issuse to find points that
can't be solved %100.
If we deem a Battery pack is unsafe to charge without a operating BMS...
Well then maybe the software should flag that point and terminate the charge
cycle... Happy???
We have planned for the sky to fall.
> > The clear issue for me is that with a larger pack... Say 50
> > to 100Kwhr, 36 Kw charge rates are not going to be fast
> > enough. Expect larger units to follow on.
>
> Let's think about this for a second: 300mi at 200Wh/mi is 60kWh. If you
> want to cram this much energy into a pack in the same ~2minutes that you
> can more-or-less refill Goldie's pack you are looking at 1800kW of
> charger. Not exactly realistic. Back off to a more believable 180kW
> and you're looking at a 20minute charge time... not that 180kW is all
> that likely anyway: this is close to 450A into a 336V (400V on charge)
> pack. Do you really think it reasonable to assume that it will take
> 20min to refill an H2 FCEV?
>
I dunno It might...As sombody said... some of the little FC EV have only a
80 to 100 mile range.
A Big 40,000 Buss with 10,000 lbs of liquid H2 on board.... Ummm I night
not beable to out range that!!
Also if the hassel of make and break up and H2 scavenge times... Or
something else... 2 Minutes is NOT a good data point.
It's taken me longer than that to stuff 17 Gallons of Regular in the Red
Ranger... 120 seconds to fill 60KwHr is a extreme point.
As you say not very realistic.
20 min to fill a H2 FcEV...
OK list... a FCEV that wieghs less than 2000lbs, How long to complete
the total refill sequence, and how much range does that FCEV have???
We are spliting hairs here... I have a sub hour wish from my client....OK???
I am doing 20 minute cycles on goldie with a 12.5 Kw charger, and that's
with the 60 seconds of less than 3 .5 amps at greater than 188 volts to make
the E-meter happy. That's by all folks definition... a full cycle. I can cut
the bulk charge time in about 1/2 with a higher peak current. OK... I have
some growing to do. That will come with time... and not very much of
it......
> Look at it another way, we've heard tell of present 10min H2 refilling
> times, for about 100mi range. 100mi at 200Wh/mi is 20kWh. To replace
> this much energy in 10min is still going to take a 120kW pump for the
> battery EV.
Funny this is a data point in my design notes also.....
>
> We all want to charge a fast as we can, but at some point we have to
> accept that it is possible to transfer energy faster in liquid or
> gaseous form when refueling our vehicles.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
Gee Roger.. I have assumed that liquid transfer is the faster by far method.
I am just letting you all know that some of us are cutting the leads down,
and at a pretty good rate.
There is now way we can transfer as much energy as a 1 inch nozzle and
Diesel. I just doubt that H2 is as fast and effortless as our current fuels.
Grant me that without cutting the concept to little pieces that can be
answered in a myriad ways...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
On Wed, 2004-10-27 at 09:43, brian baumel wrote:
Hi all,
I have heard some where that certian controllers with re-gen can be set up for variable re-gen. how is this done?
my best guess is that a second pot box is attached to the brake. when the brake is depressed the brake signal is sent to the controller as it is for normal re-gen operation but with variable re-gen the throttle input is switched to the brake pot box when this occurs?? so the throttle input would be controlling the braking....would get the same effect as if you pressed the brake and throttle at the same time. but that is only a guess... I have a Zapi H2B. has anyone have previous experience with this?
The Metricmind AC systems offer variable regen. The controller has a
second input for a brake potbox. Trying to make the throttle potbox
input do double duty would be difficult... easier to just add another
input.
Mark
Actually, it is easy, and done for other inverters, not nesesairly Siemens.
It's called off-throttle regen when mid point of the accelerator is no-drive
no-regen point. Press further, go, release more - regen. Solectria
Force's are se up this way.
Once I've programmed inverter this way to try it, and didn't like it at all.
TOo inconvenient to freeze your foot to do steady. If you suddenly remove
your foot completely (I was trying to reach something far behind me),
you'll get rear ended because of unexpected hard regen.
I quickly switch back to normal off-throttle coasting.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's the quote on the brake springs. Jerry, do you know how to do
this?
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/23/04 6:17:48 PM >>>
Hi John and All,
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What about reducing brake drag and steering drag?
> How have
> people done this, as it appears this has a nasty
> habit of
> heavily eating away at range.
Yes they can. Some do steering to neutral or in
front wheel drive car use a little tow out so when the
wheels are driven the slack comes back to nuetral.
On brakes a good cleaning and sometimes retraction
springs, clips help keep brakes from draining range.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Now if only Amtrak and Metrolink would consider the "Green Goat"
>for their operations. It seems a perfect replacement for locos in
>Metrolink trains and Amtrak Pacific Surfliners: trains no longer than
>six rather lightweight passenger cars, which stop every three to
>10 miles.
Don't hold your breath. The Goat is used in low-speed service where the
battery pack can provide brief, infrequent bursts of peak power and the
small diesel can replenish the batteries during the longer periods of
off-peak use. Rail commuter service is a whole different animal, requiring
frequent peak power bursts between stops from locomotives in the 3000-
3600hp range with cars in the 50-60 ton range.
David Thompson
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--- Begin Message ---
This Monster charger is NOT for personal uses...
It sure is nice to have it though!!!
It's for fleet serice... Where having the EVs Not moving costs money. The
faster turnaround times the more cashflow can be extracted.
Clearly I have smaller units in mind for most of us.
Woodburn has been the only place where more than a single PFC50 has been
needed. With a Dozzen hungery Evs elbowing for what ever watts they can...
a Monster charger would be nice to have on line.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >Wouldn't we all like to be charged as fast as possible???
> >I know I would.
> >
> >
> >
> I would too, but if I have the choice between a monster charger
> filling up in 20 min and then sitting all night doing nothing
> or smaller lighter cheaper charger still filling up *completely*
> by the next morning when I need to drive next time, I'd sure pick
> latter. That is provided I can run all day on one charge without
> need for opportunity charging, which is the case - I do it today.
>
> But then I'm not a MADman... :-)
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
> Yes, Lee, this is ideal case. Technically, though, whole dump pack becomes
> part of your "charger".
>
> I was talking about private use, not public dump filling stations.
>
> The problem with dump concept is assumption that everyone use batteries
> allowing dump charging. To make it universal is about as fifficult as
making
> universal charger for any laptop in existence.
>
> Victor
>
In case you don't know a PFC charger can suck DC, and boost it or Buck it to
what ever voltage is nesssary.
It's entirely possible to have a Battery bank feed a PFC charger stack
for even higher peak power levels. But now... it gets a LOT more
complicated....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks!!
Real data.
mate and unmate time, = Gas pump Regular or diesel...
I need to forget that point as a limit...it's NOT.
4 kilos is = to 4 gallons of Gasoline.
3.5 minutes... OK Roger Rick here just bought me 90 more seconds to
transfer watts. That cuts my peak currents by about %40.
Nice improvement I will take it.
Next real Question... how much range for that 4Kg?
Was it posted yesterday??? was that 60 to 80 miles???
I missed the post, and can't find the lines, since I have to go burn
Regular.. and pick up the wife....
See ya.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reinhard, Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 3:15 PM
Subject: RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
>
>
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of >Rich Rudman
> >Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 5:44 PM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
>
> >There are folks on this list that know....
>
> >How easy is it to do a H2 fill up???
> As easy as CNG
>
> >How easy do the nozzeles mate?
> See above
> >how easy is it really? And how long does it take once mated?
> About two seconds depending on whose dispenser you are using.
>
> >What's the Stop to Go time frame for a fillup?
> For about 4 kilos about 3.5 minutes.
> If the tank would develop a leak, the empty time is about 2.5 seconds.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
VICTOR!!!
You are NOT my application!!
If you don't need to recharge in a Day....
A service sized high speed charger is a waste of your time.
Don't Knock me for it, just because you don't need it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just as I thought...
We are on the same side of the argument...
We just have to Joust about it....
Madman....
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, I take it back. The resting voltage isn't 0, but 0.05 volts.
I thought about it and reset the meter low enough to pick it up. The
battery is in an old truck I bought a month ago and worked without
complaint two weeks ago. It looks to be no more than a half dozen years
old at most, hasn't frozen up or sprung a leak, or suffered any other
noticeable trauma. It just up and died.
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
I believe the 4th and San Fernando garage is free to EV's. You can
also charge at my place: 424 North Third Street. I have an MCS-100
mounted at the carriage porch part way down my driveway. It has an
Avcon plug as well as 120V outlet. I shut it down from 2pm to midnight
to avoid charging at peak rates.
Ed
On Wednesday, October 27, 2004, at 06:47 AM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Is the 4th & San Fernando Garage free if EV? Lawrence
Rhodes...........
----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Geller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Charging in San Jose downtown
• 4th and San Fernando Garage
SP AV OC
S 4th St. and E San Fernando St.
95112_2
• Costco San Jose
SP
2201 Senter Rd.
95112_1
854-G3
• Costco San Jose Almaden
PROBLEM
SP
5301 Almaden Expressway
95118_1
874-C4
• Honda of Stevens Creek
AV R
4590 Stevens Creek Blvd.
95129_1
853-A1
• Propel
SP
1010 Rincon Circle
95131_1
• Reid-Hillview Airport
NEW LOC
AV OC
2500 Cunningham Ave
95148_1
• San Jose Convention Ctr
SP AV OC R
410 S. Almaden Blvd.
95110_1
834-B7
On Oct 26, 2004, at 7:06 PM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I can't seem to find the info on the charging station in downtown San
Jose. Can anyone help with an address. Thanks Lawrence
Rhodes.............
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GP Batteries make nice ones too. And they have a philosophy of: if a
battery needs a BMS, then it isn't legit. So they believe in robust
batteries. On paper slightly less energy dense than others (60Wh/kg)
but cheaper. Available in a variety of flavors from high power to high
capacity. 100Ah at C/3 is the biggest I have a data sheet on.
Seth
On Oct 27, 2004, at 1:50 PM, Keith Richtman wrote:
Sam Thurber said:
As far as I know, there were only two companies that
made NiMH batteries for production EV's. Panasonic and
Ovonics. Nobody will ever know how long Ovonics would
have lasted since the EV1's were/are being crushed.
Some Solectria Forces used Ovonics NiMh packs as well.
Keith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it was in a series string and was discharged until it was reversed
or brought to 0v?
Seth
On Oct 27, 2004, at 7:38 AM, James D Thompson wrote:
Curiousity leads me to wonder just what you have to do to a 12-volt
PbA
battery so that its resting voltage is 0.
Run it completely down and then:
a) lay a short across the terminals and leave it there for a few days.
b) drain out all the electrolyte.
c) neutralize the electrolyte by adding soda or aqua ammonia.
I'm pretty sure I didn't do a), and I know I didn't do b) or c). Any
other ways to do it?
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Patrick and All,
I've never needed any so don't know where to
get them. But maybe try brake shops.
Some brakes came with them and others didn't.
Sometimes when they broke is when the brakes
dragged. So first find out if the car uses them. If so
the car's dealer will have them.
Aftermarket dealers may be of help or you may
need to make your own.
But if a disc brake is dragging, it's usually
a rusted, sticking brake cyl or piston.
It also could be air or water in the brake
line, fluid or vapor lock.
A good idea on all EV conversions because of
the extra weight, is new brake pads, slave cyl or
rebuild kits and turn, replace the rotors and fluid
if nessasary will usually solve any brake dragging
problem.
Almost all drum brakes have retraction springs
stock and available at your local auto parts house..
HTH's,
jerry dycus
--- Patrick Maston
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here's the quote on the brake springs. Jerry, do
> you know how to do
> this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Patrick Maston
> 1981 Jet Electrica
>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10/23/04 6:17:48 PM >>>
> Hi John and All,
> --- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What about reducing brake drag and steering drag?
> > How have
> > people done this, as it appears this has a nasty
> > habit of
> > heavily eating away at range.
> Yes they can. Some do steering to neutral or in
> front wheel drive car use a little tow out so when
> the
> wheels are driven the slack comes back to nuetral.
> On brakes a good cleaning and sometimes
> retraction
> springs, clips help keep brakes from draining range.
>
>
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--- End Message ---
