EV Digest 3879
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Hydrogen fuel - why in the rain??
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Battery at Zero volts?
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: variable re-gen
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: variable re-gen
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) OT: EV NiMh batteries Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by "Keith Richtman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Giving up the goat? Advice on my EV Project.
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Hydrogen fuel - why in the rain??
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Battery at Zero volts?
by Nawaz Qureshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV NiMh batteries Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Perm motor
by "Larry Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) EV book
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: AC motor current ratings
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: EVLN(GoinGreen's REVA GoinPlaces)
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: one-wheeled EV
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
There are no US patents issued either in his name nor assigned to
Europositron (that name alone sets my BS detector off) so I don't know
enough to form an opinion. My gut says BS.
Consider this, though. The cold electrolytic reduction of aluminum metal
in an economic manner has been one of the holy grails of electrochemistry.
Recall that aluminum refining uses the Hall-Héroult process which involves
an electrolytic reaction in a molten bath of cryolite (sodium aluminium
fluoride). Recall that before this process was invented, Aluminum was a
precious metal, so much so that Napolean replaced his silverware with
aluminum at his official table (how quaint that seems now.)
This is a VERY energy-intensive process which is why aluminum plants are
located near cheap sources of power. And why most of the small power
producing dams in this area were built by Alcoa in the early part of the
last century.
If this guy has developed a cold electrolytic process for reducing an
aluminum compound to the metal, what charging this battery would require,
then it has implications much more far reaching than batteries.
I have an open mind - I'm willing to wait and see. But I'm not investing
any money.
John
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:22:28 +0100, Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 19:15:24 -0400, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Ah, the power of vaporware. A proven formula:
>>
>> Make up a catchy name for the latest flavor of Improbable Technology.
>> Find some college prof to prostitute his name to your venture.
>> Put up a flashy web site making all sorts of forward-looking statements
>> Soak the investors
>> Repeat as often as necessary to make a career.
>
>Well, we've had more than our share of those in the battery realm.
>
>What do you make of this, by the way? :
>http://www.europositron.com/en/partanen.html
>
>My favorite bit:
> "We believe that in the next few years, Aluminium will establish
>itself as the technology of choice for EV'S. It is anticipated that it
>will be possible to store 50 kW-Hr in 150Kgs at a material cost of USD
>300."
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, with hydrogen, it is feasible to refuel at home, like an EV. It
would even be feasible to have the equipment onboard the car, and you
could slowly (overnight) refill wherever you have a plug and water.
My guess would be the miles-of-charge/hour of the H2 refiller would
be 1/2 to 1/4 that for a battery electric (in other words, up to 4
times as long to fill off the same wall plug).
--- Philip Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >Ahh, but you are comparing Apples and Pomegranates.
> >H2 car - you drive to a station, stand in the rain, and wait while
> it's
> >filled. Walk through the rain to pay.
> >EV car - you go home, plug in, and go eat dinner. Ignore until
> morning.
> >
> >--
>
> I am, by no means, a fan of hydrogen. But let's be fair about
> this. I
> haven't stood in the rain to buy gasoline for years. All of the
> stations
> I've used (or have even seen) have had more than adequate canopies
> over the
> pumps for shelter from the rain.
>
> Neither have I had to walk anywhere to pay for the fuel in recent
> years-
> I've always paid at the pump with a credit card ( under the same
> shelter) .
>
> I see no reason to think that hydrogen re-fueling stations ( if
> they ever
> exist) would have un-sheltered pumps and require walking somewhere
> to pay.
>
> Phil Marino
> Rochester, NY
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Europositron may indeed be a load of BS. But if any technology does emerge
that allows an EV to go 500 miles on a charge, Rich Rudman may be selling
quite a few more of his PFC50's. For example, if a car that goes 500 miles
gets 200Wh/mile, then you'd need 100000Wh to recharge it. With 50A * 220V =
11000W, you'd still need over 9 hours even with a PFC50 to charge the thing
from home, best case.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> There is a perverse danger to a "non-toxic" battery. Given
> human nature, people will just throw them in the trash rather
> than recycling. So, they may *contribute* to pollution
> problems rather than solving them.
Sad, but true... our local recycling site lists places where NiMH and
NiCd cells can be returned for recycling, but notes that since mercury
has not been used in the manufacture of alkaline cells for the last few
years, they are no longer collected and can (must!?) therefore simply be
discarded in one's household waste.
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Simple way is to just not charge it a leave it sit for a year or so.
Need much more info if you are looking for an answer for your specific case.
How old is the battery?
How much has it been used?
How long since it was last charged?
How has it been stored?
Did it get frozen and develop a small leak such that one or more of the
cells are now dry?
How was it acting during its last few cycles?
How does it react to being charged now? (volts and amps)
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James D Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 6:38 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Battery at Zero volts?
> >> Curiousity leads me to wonder just what you have to do to a 12-volt PbA
> >>battery so that its resting voltage is 0.
> >
> >Run it completely down and then:
> >
> >a) lay a short across the terminals and leave it there for a few days.
> >b) drain out all the electrolyte.
> >c) neutralize the electrolyte by adding soda or aqua ammonia.
>
> I'm pretty sure I didn't do a), and I know I didn't do b) or c). Any
> other ways to do it?
>
> David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Ahh, but you are comparing Apples and Pomegranates.
> H2 car - you drive to a station, stand in the rain, and wait
> while it's filled. Walk through the rain to pay.
> EV car - you go home, plug in, and go eat dinner. Ignore
> until morning.
Nope. Rich's vision is (or at least I understood it to be) of there
being EV quick charge 'pumps' at public refueling stations alongside
those for H2, CNG, LPG, diesel, gasoline, etc.
Apples to apples: if you are standing in the rain to refuel your ICE or
FCEV, you are also standing in the rain to refuel your EV. And, you
walk the same distance to pay for said fillup.
Plugging in at home and ignoring until morning is the EV status quo; it
works just fine when you have a small capacity pack and/or don't drive
far each day, but this discussion is about EVs going head-to-head with
FCEVs in terms of miles driven per day. It simply isn't practical, in
general, to expect EVers to run home each time they need a charge, even
if they have a fast charger there.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The Metricmind AC systems offer variable regen. The
> controller has a second input for a brake potbox. Trying to
> make the throttle potbox input do double duty would be
> difficult... easier to just add another input.
This may be true of the Metricmind AC system, but not in general.
The Curtis 1244 Sep-Ex controller offers regen controlled by the
throttle pot (the amount of regen can be varied by how much you lift off
the throttle while coasting).
The 1274 Sep-Ex controller allows for variable regen controlled by a
brake/regen pot which is separate from the throttle pot.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ah, but these are generalities that are largely
> unproven. For every
> battery technology, there are *huge* differences
> between the best and
> the worst -- much larger than the average difference
> between
> technologies.
As far as I know, there were only two companies that
made NiMH batteries for production EV's. Panasonic and
Ovonics. Nobody will ever know how long Ovonics would
have lasted since the EV1's were/are being crushed.
So, unless I'm mistaken, Panasonic NiMH are the *only*
NiMH batteries out there in any production EV (or
hybrid for that matter, not sure about Ford's plans).
Since they are the only game in town, they are hardly
a red herring or even just one data point. They are
the whole story. I'm not sure where you get the idea
that it's unproven generalities either. Southern
California Edison has published papers about their
experience with Toyota's RAV4-EV's. They had a fleet
of over a thousand of them and have only had to
replace one cell if memory serves. The paper is on
their web site.
> The electrolyte is potassium
> hydroxide, and the
> metal-hydride electrolyte is a witches brew of
> exotic metals.
Pansonic's EV batteries did not contain any toxic
metals in their "witches brew" (exotic is a little
more difficult to define). I said they were almost
edible as a joke, but it is almost true. All of the
elements in the battery are found in human blood,
including potassium and hydroxide ... just at a lower
pH :)
> There is a perverse danger to a "non-toxic" battery.
> Given human nature,
> people will just throw them in the trash rather than
> recycling.
Couldn't agree more, and I suspect there are consumer
NiMH cells out there that may contain some toxic
metals. Even if they don't it's still less than polite
not to recycle recyclables.h
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
brian baumel wrote:
Hi all,
I have heard some where that certian controllers with re-gen can be set up
for variable re-gen. how is this done? my best guess is that a second pot
box is attached to the brake. when the brake is depressed the brake signal
is sent to the controller as it is for normal re-gen operation but with
variable re-gen the throttle input is switched to the brake pot box when
this occurs?? so the throttle input would be controlling the
braking....would get the same effect as if you pressed the brake and
throttle at the same time. but that is only a guess... I have a Zapi H2B.
has anyone have previous experience with this?
AFAIK, variable regen suitable for a full-sized car is only available with
AC systems, (regen can also work well with PM motors, though I don't believe
that there are any large enough for your car). The Zapi system provides
minimal throttle-off regen and steps that up a bit with a brake pedal
activated switch. Regen is hard on the motor (series wound DC motor), Brush
timing should be set at zero if used. Use of regen with the Zapi system can
lead to premature brush and commutator damage/wear.
I have a little experience with the Zapi regen system, see these two
vehicles-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/G2page.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/G1page.html
HTH
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
_________________________________________________________________
Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Thurber said:
> As far as I know, there were only two companies that
> made NiMH batteries for production EV's. Panasonic and
> Ovonics. Nobody will ever know how long Ovonics would
> have lasted since the EV1's were/are being crushed.
Some Solectria Forces used Ovonics NiMh packs as well.
Keith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 2004 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Giving up the goat? Advice on my EV Project.
> Steve Clunn wrote:
> > A few weeks ago I got a call from the people who have my Ford
> > Ranger in NC...
>
> It sounds like it has all the right parts but in the wrong body. The
> things that have been fixed, and the ones that still need fixing have
> little to do with it being an EV.
>
> So, it would seem the best approach would be to find another Ford Ranger
> that is in good condition but with a bad engine; one they can get cheap.
> Then transfer all the EV parts to it.
>
Yes this was my though and as I had just got a very nice Mazda 2200 for $300
the ranger was dead meat and ready for a re in car nation number 3 ( it was
my 1st ev wv to begin with ). I did the Mazda with money for another ev that
sold , so didn't need any parts off it. This was all back when I did the
post 3 paths , which one to take? I did all three , well kind of , Put a
motor into Paul's project ( the 2 motor Porsche ) , Did my Mazda 2 , and
helped these people get into an ev ( my old ranger). They felt it would be
easier to fix up the old ranger a little at a time than to do a whole
conversion , I was for putting all the parts into another truck but if I did
that I couldn't , in my mind , let it go for no money down /$250 month which
was what they could afford (or though they could). I feel bad that its not
working for them.But if your not going to spend the money than you have to
deal with the problems that come with not having all the right stuff. People
coming into EV's form the gas world are in the mind set of " old cars/trucks
are worth 1000 or less , why is a ev in a old car so much" .
> A heater is a simple problem. Modify a 120vac 1500w $20 heater for DC
> use. Or, if the old heater core and blower are still in place, add a
> little water tank and electric heating element to produce hot water for
> it.
>
Ya but with the deal I was giving them I didn't feel like I should have to ,
I did do a lot of little things to it before it left ,
I did tell them repeatly the truck is free what your making paiments on is
the EV parts .
> Battery insulation is usually easy, too. Add 1" or so of styrafoam
> panels , or wrap it in fiberglass. If you drive and charge every day,
> waste heat alone should keep them warm in NC.
I am finding that they are not so machinal inclined as I first though. And
the money is really a problem , they probable just want to give it back and
need a reason . As hard as I'm trying to get my conversion business off the
ground , it's still laying face down in the mud, . Everybody I know said I
was nuts to let it go like that (no money down), but If I don't make deals
like this nothing happens , and a yard full of conversions really upsets my
wife. I'm feeling a little like the car companies , " why should I stick my
neck out building these evs when all people will do is complain about what
they won't do . ".
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
alright , Ok , , Things are not really that bad , I have a paying job right
now , the nission 300zx , got the first ride ( 24v no controller ) the other
day and it feels like a heavy dog , but looks like I'll be able to get 26
golf cart batteries in it so with 1k zilla it will still do all right.
Steve clunn
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's why the Monster charger is being developed....
It's target is 36 Kw for the first unit, 50 to 75 Kw on follow on units.
I have a 40+Kwhr target pack, and they want a sub hour recharge.
Even at this point... I am going to be reaching to meet the needs.
PFC50s can be turned up to 75 amps if the DC side is greater than 400 volts.
So... 12.5 Kw chargers become 18 Kw... Too much is never enough. I am just
chasing my clients wishes.
So what knocked my socks off 2 years ago is just one of 3 units in the
same box.
And it may have more than that number....
One step at a time.....
So... it's less than 3 hours.....Not 9.
That assumes you have 175 amps of 240.... is available....
A 100Kwhr pack.... is going to be VERY expensive...No matter if you use
Lion... or Unobtainium
I am already working with 50 Kwhr PbLa packs.
I would love to have this probelm. Too much capacity, and We all need bigger
better charger.
Bring it ON!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:20 AM
Subject: RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
> Europositron may indeed be a load of BS. But if any technology does
emerge
> that allows an EV to go 500 miles on a charge, Rich Rudman may be selling
> quite a few more of his PFC50's. For example, if a car that goes 500
miles
> gets 200Wh/mile, then you'd need 100000Wh to recharge it. With 50A * 220V
=
> 11000W, you'd still need over 9 hours even with a PFC50 to charge the
thing
> from home, best case.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Sam Thurber wrote:
So, unless I'm mistaken, Panasonic NiMH are the *only*
NiMH batteries out there in any production EV (or
hybrid for that matter, not sure about Ford's plans).
At this point Ford is too far for it to be mere plans; I saw one on there
road here 2 days ago (with Michigan M plates; I live in Pennsylvania)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are luckier than I. I have often been caught standing in sideways
blowing rain or snow waiting for a vehicle to refuel. I have also missed
my train because I got halfway to the station and realized I probably
wouldn't make it on the fuel I had left. If I had a BEV, I would just put
a weather-protected box at the head of my driveway so I can plug in
on the way in to the house. (And set it to pre-heat, so I'm not waiting
30 minutes for an ICE to warm itself up and start to de-ice my
windshield!)
Tim
---------
> From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Hydrogen fuel - why in the rain??
> Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 12:29:00 -0400
>
> I am, by no means, a fan of hydrogen. But let's be fair about this. I
> haven't stood in the rain to buy gasoline for years. All of the stations
> I've used (or have even seen) have had more than adequate canopies over the
> pumps for shelter from the rain.
>
> Neither have I had to walk anywhere to pay for the fuel in recent years-
> I've always paid at the pump with a credit card ( under the same shelter) .
>
> I see no reason to think that hydrogen re-fueling stations ( if they ever
> exist) would have un-sheltered pumps and require walking somewhere to pay.
>
> Phil Marino
> Rochester, NY
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi:
Bringing the Voltage to zero (or less than 1.75 Volts per cell) causes
some cells to reverse polarity. Reversing polarity causes irreversible
damage by chemical and physical changes in the active material of the
plates i.e. yo cannot uncook a cooked egg.. For instance if the lead
dioxide becomes lead by reversal then it looses its porosity and
morphology such that it cannot function as a health plate and the active
material will fall off and will go bad very fast.
You cannot revive dead batteries by these old wives tales: by , washing,
refilling etc. O sure you will get a little bit of the original capacity
after doing all that giving some the impression that it worked, but the
battery is really dead. and cannot be revived. It is best to bite the
bullet and get a new set.
Sincerely
Nawaz Qureshi
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:29 AM
Subject: RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
> John G. Lussmyer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Ahh, but you are comparing Apples and Pomegranates.
> > H2 car - you drive to a station, stand in the rain, and wait
> > while it's filled. Walk through the rain to pay.
> > EV car - you go home, plug in, and go eat dinner. Ignore
> > until morning.
>
> Nope. Rich's vision is (or at least I understood it to be) of there
> being EV quick charge 'pumps' at public refueling stations alongside
> those for H2, CNG, LPG, diesel, gasoline, etc.
>
> Apples to apples: if you are standing in the rain to refuel your ICE or
> FCEV, you are also standing in the rain to refuel your EV. And, you
> walk the same distance to pay for said fillup.
>
> Plugging in at home and ignoring until morning is the EV status quo; it
> works just fine when you have a small capacity pack and/or don't drive
> far each day, but this discussion is about EVs going head-to-head with
> FCEVs in terms of miles driven per day. It simply isn't practical, in
> general, to expect EVers to run home each time they need a charge, even
> if they have a fast charger there.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
The time to fill up may be the same, but the H2 is being compared to the
CNG, and LPG , and Diesel,and Gasoline.
I think the support for H2 is a lot more than the other 4 flavors. Anti
Static suits,a nd trained personel. Up that anty pretty high.
The EV may be the only one that you don't have to worry about Vapor
ignition issue!!.
Diesel and Gas will kick our butt, but if it's 40X as expensive per mile...
it takes itself out of the argument.
If the customer choosed zero CO2, same effect.
H2 is not cheap or easy to compress and store... this is where, it could be
a LOT more complicated that a fill of regular.
I aim to make Ev high level charing as quick and painless as possible.
With 100Kwhr packs on board... All the other sources get a reality check for
sure.
Lets hope 100Kwhr packs can be charged at 100Kw or better.
This whole thread was a question as to just how hard is it to charge a H2
FCev.
The gold standard is a fillup or Regular, with a 300 mile range.
At 100Kwhr, we have the range!!! and a Lot more.
Lets keep the hopes up... and make what we have work to it's best.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keith Yer Back!!
We need to talk!!!
Madman...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Richtman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 10:50 AM
Subject: OT: EV NiMh batteries Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
> Sam Thurber said:
> > As far as I know, there were only two companies that
> > made NiMH batteries for production EV's. Panasonic and
> > Ovonics. Nobody will ever know how long Ovonics would
> > have lasted since the EV1's were/are being crushed.
>
> Some Solectria Forces used Ovonics NiMh packs as well.
>
> Keith
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Heres a motor that looks great for an electric motorcycle:
http://www.botparts.com/marketplace_motors_perm.html
_________________________________________________________________
Get ready for school! Find articles, homework help and more in the Back to
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
By the Way Listers,
I was Inside a Ford Escape HYbrid last week in Portland.
NiMH batteries.
It was a direct custom order, and they were under a NO RIDE order from the
customer.
We opened the hood kicked the tires, and read the 300 volt warning on
the battery pack.
Sigh!! I came THAT close to getting a ride and drive....
33 mile city 29 MPG highway.. Yup that's a Hybrid..
It was a CVT... Oh Well.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derrick J Brashear" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 11:01 AM
Subject: Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004, Sam Thurber wrote:
>
> > So, unless I'm mistaken, Panasonic NiMH are the *only*
> > NiMH batteries out there in any production EV (or
> > hybrid for that matter, not sure about Ford's plans).
>
> At this point Ford is too far for it to be mere plans; I saw one on there
> road here 2 days ago (with Michigan M plates; I live in Pennsylvania)
>
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> At this point Ford is too far for it to be mere
plans
I was referring to whether their battery packs would
be made by Panasonic or ECD, aka Ovonic.
-Sam
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Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > You can't fill sealed PbA in just a few minutes no matter how
> > big the hose;
>
> Like Duhh Roger!!!!
> Why do you think I said the Vlim, not the complete
> end of charge point.
You and I know this, but it isn't necessarily obvious to everyone else.
When we're talking about how far one can go on a 'fill-up', the
difference between getting 80% full in a few minutes and getting 100%
full in the same time can be significant.
> > The time to safely connect/disconnect for a 36kW drink is probably
> > going to be similar to that required for an H2 hose,
> Not so! It takes about 15 Seconds to make the
> conenction. Stop open Hood slam the Anderson home, Flip
> breaker on the charger Crank up Amps knob.
Are we talking about what is possible today, or what the situation will
be when you or I, or Granny, can pull into a public filling station with
an EV or FCEV and fill up?
I'm talking about the latter, and I fully believe that in order for H2
or EV filling stations to be publicly acceptable, both will have to be
quick and easy to use. I don't see any big reason for major differences
between CNG and H2 pump connections or procedures.
An Anderson is not going to be an acceptable connection for the general
public, and particularly not for Granny.
> You clearly have not seen the Madman show at the
> Woodburn races.
True; events beyond my control have prevented me from attending for the
last couple years :(
> As some one just posted Roger... the Anti static suit
> the special fittings the time to transfer the H2... all not
> as clearly evident could be.
And not at all evident that they are required. Aircraft refueling is
also subject to anti-static precautions: the fuel jockey clips a ground
lead from the fuel pump to the airframe prior to pulling the fuel hose
over and inserting it into the filler nozzle. Why should H2 require so
much more elaborate procedures?
I think that in these relatively early days of vehicular H2 use there is
a bit more paranoia about the dangers of H2 than are really justified...
> The longer argument is... how much H2 do they
> have... and how often does it need a monster Refer Cryo truck
> to service it?
I don't see why this is of any more relevance or interest than the
capacity of our present gas stations' holding tanks and how often they
are refilled. The station will have tanks of sufficent capacity that
they won't run out between refills; we don't care how big the tanks are
or how often they are refilled, all we care about is that we can fill
up.
> Clearly Goldie is NOT the Ev for this argument... She is
> NOT intended for range running. Still I can get a LOT of
> miles under her in a Day.
Absolutely! I'm certainly not arguing that quick recharge capability is
not a good thing.
> > If you want to compete with the FCEV refill time, your EV needs to
> > have a battery capable of storing enough energy to take it
> > a similar distance
> >
> No you don't have to compete stored watt to stored watt. You
> compete for miles run in Days of service.
True, but if we compare apples-to-apples, that is, Granny refueling her
FCEV and Grampa charging his battery EV, both at a public filling
station, then it looks very much like Grampa needs to have a battery
pack that can take his EV close to the same distance as Granny's H2 tank
if he wants to cover the same distance in a day simply because as the
time spent actually filling the vehicle decreases, the time spent
connecting/disconnecting and paying, etc. becomes more significant.
No matter how big the hose gets, minimising the number of fillups
required is always going to result in more time available for
accumulating miles.
> Uhhhhh Roger just who do you think you are arguing
> with???? Maybe the Guy doing the BMS????
Regs aren't exactly a BMS ;^>
> Clearly I have
> thought of that and have product to cover that fact. The Regs
> crank back the charger. And the nastier the charge rate the
> faster the safties better work. Expect me to have that rather
> well tested.
You've stated that your fast charge process consists of popping the hood
and connecting *an Anderson*... just how are you connecting the regs to
the charger and testing this all with just a 2-way connection between
the pack and charger?
What happens if one or more regs is dead or disconnected, etc.? Does
the charger simply continue blindly, or does it not start at all? Maybe
you've got more going on in your "skunk works" than the general public
(I) know about, but I'm not sure that what we do know about is ready for
prime time, widespread public use in this application.
> By the way you only get 3 cycles on a Yt before you have race
> ready Yts.... aka 120 Deg F Lead!.
Good point; will your regs prevent the charger from trying to fast
charge a pack that is too hot? What happens to your quick recharge time
when you pull up to the pump with a hot pack? Do the regs detect hot
modules and throttle back the charger if any hit the thermal limit while
charging? Can the charger query the vehicle's regs to confirm that the
proper number for the pack voltage exist, and that each and every one is
alive, monitoring module voltage and temperature accurately, and is
capable of halting the charger *prior* to jamming big amps into the
pack?
> The clear issue for me is that with a larger pack... Say 50
> to 100Kwhr, 36 Kw charge rates are not going to be fast
> enough. Expect larger units to follow on.
Let's think about this for a second: 300mi at 200Wh/mi is 60kWh. If you
want to cram this much energy into a pack in the same ~2minutes that you
can more-or-less refill Goldie's pack you are looking at 1800kW of
charger. Not exactly realistic. Back off to a more believable 180kW
and you're looking at a 20minute charge time... not that 180kW is all
that likely anyway: this is close to 450A into a 336V (400V on charge)
pack. Do you really think it reasonable to assume that it will take
20min to refill an H2 FCEV?
Look at it another way, we've heard tell of present 10min H2 refilling
times, for about 100mi range. 100mi at 200Wh/mi is 20kWh. To replace
this much energy in 10min is still going to take a 120kW pump for the
battery EV.
We all want to charge a fast as we can, but at some point we have to
accept that it is possible to transfer energy faster in liquid or
gaseous form when refueling our vehicles.
Cheers,
Roger.
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On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 11:28:31 -0700 (PDT), Sam Thurber
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> At this point Ford is too far for it to be mere
>plans
>
>I was referring to whether their battery packs would
>be made by Panasonic or ECD, aka Ovonic.
When I was up at Ford's R&D center in Dearborn last July, I got to poke
around in the guts of a disassembled production prototype hybrid. My
client who is an engineering manager there told me that the battery pack
was the same as Toyota's. I didn't ask if "the same" meant the same part
number or merely that it was made of the same cells and of the same
voltage. In any event, it is a Panasonic pack. It certainly looked like
the photos I've seen of Toyota's pack.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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One of y'all sent me the title of an out-of-print book on EV construction. Would you
please send it to me again? I can't get at the earlier message (long story) and would
like to do some searching tonight when I have access to a fast Internet hookup.
Thanks.
Eric S
Germantown TN
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Mike Barber wrote:
I'm thinking about building an AC motor controller to control some of the Siemens
motors on the metric mind web site. I saw some current ratings for the motors, and
they give values of 282A rms. I believe that this rms current rating is the sum of
all the current in the phases at once - can anyone verify this for me? 94A per phase
would be a lot easier to deal with than 282A per phase. Thanks in advance.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
Please note that only ACW-80-4 synchronous PM motor
can be sold alone (intent is to use it for APU unit
in which case inverter is optional).
Induction motors are sold only together with
inverters programmed for them as a package - this
is the only professional approach guaranteeing
proper and smooth operation.
If you want adventures, Ford's overstock Siemens
motors go on ebay now and then for half of metricmind's price.
Of course, no warranties, no support, no documentation,
as is, etc. So you're on your own.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Rich Rudman wrote:
Wouldn't we all like to be charged as fast as possible???
I know I would.
I would too, but if I have the choice between a monster charger
filling up in 20 min and then sitting all night doing nothing
or smaller lighter cheaper charger still filling up *completely*
by the next morning when I need to drive next time, I'd sure pick
latter. That is provided I can run all day on one charge without
need for opportunity charging, which is the case - I do it today.
But then I'm not a MADman... :-)
Victor
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Yes, Lee, this is ideal case. Technically, though, whole dump pack becomes
part of your "charger".
I was talking about private use, not public dump filling stations.
The problem with dump concept is assumption that everyone use batteries
allowing dump charging. To make it universal is about as fifficult as making
universal charger for any laptop in existence.
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Suppose you already have PFC500 for $100 and the pack absorbing
500A with no problem. How many can take advantage of it with only
50A 240V mains best case and 120V 16A worst case? Only people
with 3 phase 480V industial feeds which makes 500A charger kinda
pointless to have, even for free.
I think the way this would be (*should* be) done is to have a dump pack
at the charging station. A big set of batteries, several times larger in
capacity than the EV being charged. You can dump them into your EV at a
500amp rate, for long enough to bring your pack up to 80% SOC or so.
Then, the dump pack is recharged at a more modest rate, say 50amps,
while your EV is disconnected, drives away, and while waiting for the
next customer to pull up and connect.
Such a setup is very straightforward to design, setup, and use. It can
easily be done with present, off-the-shelf technology. The EV's existing
controller can already handle the high-current DC-to-DC conversion
between the dump pack and EV pack. The recharge rate for the dump pack
is well within the capabilities of normal AC wiring.
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> The G-Wiz is currently available on promotion from just £5,899
> and is sold via the GoinGreen website www.goingreen.co.uk
anyone know if Reva has made any progress in getting this car into the US market?
the website (http://www.revaindia.com/) says that the Reva is still being tested
in the UK, so it seems that the website info is not completely current
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i've only ever seen one unicycle that really works and that was a sit inside the wheel
job with a 10hp ice motor
the designer was confident of it's day to day ability but admits you need to stay out
of ruts in the road
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Evan Tuer wrote:
> I don't think the gyroscope provides "staying upright" force, it is
> just used by the computer to work out how to keep the wheel under you
> - a bit like the segway..
>
> Still though, it looks a bit scary!
So does a bicycle -- yet it works!
There is actually a long history of one-wheeled (monocycle) vehicles.
Some, like this one, have a small gyroscope and a complex auto-balancing
system.
Others just have a huge gyroscope that holds it upright by brute force.
I've seen pictures of one using this method being ridden across a river
on a log!
Others are basically a giant ball, with the driver inside. A ball can't
fall over, so it is unconditionally stable. The ball is either clear, or
has holes or windows so the driver can see.
Others are a big wheel, with the driver riding inside it, so low that
the center of gravity is below the axle. These are unconditionally
stable fore-aft, though too much torque can make them "gerbil" (wheel
sits still and driver spins around inside it :-)
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Regards
Richard
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