EV Digest 3882
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Running clutchless?
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Dump Charging... Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: BOT: Re: Hydrogen fuel [vs. batteries]
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery at Zero volts?
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Running clutchless?
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: AC motor current ratings
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AC motor current ratings
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Fwd: Re: Brake Retraction Springs Quote
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: running clutchless
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Running clutchless?
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: running clutchless
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: running clutchless
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Ampabout ... Spooky
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: running clutchless
by Quin Pendragon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Running clutchless?
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Dump Charging... Re: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Running clutchless?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Running clutchless?
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Running clutchless?
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Clutchless works for me.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Claudio Natoli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, 28 October 2004 6:30 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Running clutchless?
Hello all,
this lurker is about to start on his first conversion (small car), and,
following on from the recent (and very helpful!) discussion over
flywheel
machining, I had the following question:
Is there any reason to keep the clutch/flywheel assembly?
My conversion is going to be a commuter, so quick changes down the drag
strip aren't a must. Judging by my calcs, I figure I'll have the odd
change
from 2nd to 3rd gear in the zippier parts of my commute... and I'm just
working on the assumption that changing gears without a clutch will be
pretty straightforward with an EV (ie. come off "gas", drop in neutral,
push
toward desired gear and let the synchro do its thing... which I'm
guessing
should be pretty easy without the inertia load of the ICE and
paraphernalia). Is this correct?.
If I can, I wouldn't mind losing the entire weight of that assembly, and
losing the inertial mass of the flywheel (not to mention fewer moving
parts). Is there anything obvious I've forgotten? Any reason why I
really
ought to keep the clutch/flywheel in this situation? On the other hand,
are
there any EV-ers here who've happily done away with the clutch?
Cheers,
Claudio
---
Certain disclaimers and policies apply to all email sent from Memetrics.
For the full text of these disclaimers and policies see
<a
href="http://www.memetrics.com/emailpolicy.html";>http://www.memetrics.co
m/em
ailpolicy.html</a>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 20:53:36 -0700, Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So, Dump Charging would be usefull for even these
> exotic and unusuail types of batteries...
>
> I don't see any reason that a PFC couldn't be used
> by anyone at a Fast Charge Station regardless of chemistry.
Correct Ryan,
The TS cells will theoretically charge most of the way at 1C (200A)
and they're at the cheap-and-nasty end of the technology.
The more advanced cells will accept much higher rates of charge and
discharge, so fast charging at the same levels of bravery of Optimas
and Orbitals may well be feasible.
I think Victor was making the point that it's hard enough to
standardise on an AC feed connector, let alone a wide-range, safe,
high current DC connector AND a standard "dump charge protocol" to
interface with everyone's different battery management solutions.
However, as a community, we should manage to make a better job of it
than the big automakers did with their deliberately diverse charger
options.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Sam Thurber wrote:
> > As far as I know, there were only two companies
> that made NiMH
> > batteries for production EV's.
>
> Quite a few companies have made large nimh cells;
> Saft, Sanyo, and Varta
> come to mind, and I'm sure there are others.
That may be true, the point was none of those made it
into any production vehicles that I know of and the
only production vehicles left (besides a few of the
NiMH Solectra Force cars) have Panasonic cells in
them. So, the others aren't particularly relevant to
EV discussions any more.
> According to the MSDS they contain nickel, iron,
> cobalt, manganese,
> aluminum, zinc, undisclosed lanthanides, potassium
> hydroxide, water, and
> minor amounts of other materials. It would be very
> bad to eat even one
> AA nimh cell!
Hope nobody thought I was suggesting that. Point is,
most NiMH cells are not poisonous and are non-toxic.
Neither are most rocks. I still wouldn't recommend
eating either one of them.
-Sam
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check for a current drain on the truck. My van used to run down its
battery sometimes. Turned out someone had done a "temporary" wire
from the battery to the light in the back, under the carpet, and it
had worn through and made a low-resistance path to the metal floor.
Evan.
On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:08:18 -0400, James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Actually, I take it back. The resting voltage isn't 0, but 0.05 volts.
> I thought about it and reset the meter low enough to pick it up. The
> battery is in an old truck I bought a month ago and worked without
> complaint two weeks ago. It looks to be no more than a half dozen years
> old at most, hasn't frozen up or sprung a leak, or suffered any other
> noticeable trauma. It just up and died.
>
> David Thompson
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Claudio,
I would recommend that you keep the clutch. First, those two-second
shifts will be more annoying than you think. Second, in many cars the
pilot shaft on the transmission is designed to be supported on the
engine side by the pilot bushing in the end of the crank. Many
clutchless adapters do away with this pilot bushing and leave the shaft
unsupported on one end. Eventually this can wear out the bearing on
the other end of the shaft in the transmission. I did an clutchless
S10 and was very unhappy to be without my clutch. My Datsun 240Z is
getting a nice CenterForce racing clutch! My 2 cents. Good luck on
your conversion.
Seth
On Oct 28, 2004, at 4:29 AM, Claudio Natoli wrote:
Hello all,
this lurker is about to start on his first conversion (small car), and,
following on from the recent (and very helpful!) discussion over
flywheel
machining, I had the following question:
Is there any reason to keep the clutch/flywheel assembly?
My conversion is going to be a commuter, so quick changes down the drag
strip aren't a must. Judging by my calcs, I figure I'll have the odd
change
from 2nd to 3rd gear in the zippier parts of my commute... and I'm just
working on the assumption that changing gears without a clutch will be
pretty straightforward with an EV (ie. come off "gas", drop in
neutral, push
toward desired gear and let the synchro do its thing... which I'm
guessing
should be pretty easy without the inertia load of the ICE and
paraphernalia). Is this correct?.
If I can, I wouldn't mind losing the entire weight of that assembly,
and
losing the inertial mass of the flywheel (not to mention fewer moving
parts). Is there anything obvious I've forgotten? Any reason why I
really
ought to keep the clutch/flywheel in this situation? On the other
hand, are
there any EV-ers here who've happily done away with the clutch?
Cheers,
Claudio
---
Certain disclaimers and policies apply to all email sent from
Memetrics.
For the full text of these disclaimers and policies see
<a
href="http://www.memetrics.com/emailpolicy.html";>http://
www.memetrics.com/em
ailpolicy.html</a>
--
'72 Datsun 240Z Electric Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Better yet, but a Solectria AC55. They are a relative bargain. Electro
Autmotive carries them, I think, as does Solectria.
Seth
On Oct 27, 2004, at 10:59 PM, Arthur Matteson wrote:
Mike, in terms of motors, look into Magnetek. My friend built the
Univ. of Illinois hybrid car (FutureCar Challenge) with a Magnetek
induction motor. It was rewound but achieved 80HP in a very small
package.
If not, Baldor makes a good choice. I use a modified-shaft EM3314T.
Pictures of my motor and the jig used to modify the shaft are on my
website, under Technical Details. The inside of the motor isn't
terribly symmetric but it works well. Note that this is not a vector
motor: See Baldor's http://www.baldor.com/pdf/literature/BR457.pdf ,
page 29, for details on the practical difference. It is better to
rewind a normal motor than to buy a vector motor because of cost (note
the Super-E comes with Inverter-Spike-Resistant windings).
Here is the performance of my car at only 60V (top speed 6MPH in
video, on grass): http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/60vrun.mov
- Arthur
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt
Mike Barber wrote:
I'm thinking about building an AC motor controller to control some
of the Siemens motors on the metric mind web site. I saw some
current ratings for the motors, and they give values of 282A rms. I
believe that this rms current rating is the sum of all the current
in the phases at once - can anyone verify this for me? 94A per
phase would be a lot easier to deal with than 282A per phase.
Thanks in advance.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
Please note that only ACW-80-4 synchronous PM motor
can be sold alone (intent is to use it for APU unit
in which case inverter is optional).
Induction motors are sold only together with
inverters programmed for them as a package - this
is the only professional approach guaranteeing
proper and smooth operation.
If you want adventures, Ford's overstock Siemens
motors go on ebay now and then for half of metricmind's price.
Of course, no warranties, no support, no documentation,
as is, etc. So you're on your own.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arthur-
Every time I view your page I am stunned at how much progress you have
made. Nice work!
Seth
On Oct 27, 2004, at 10:59 PM, Arthur Matteson wrote:
Mike, in terms of motors, look into Magnetek. My friend built the
Univ. of Illinois hybrid car (FutureCar Challenge) with a Magnetek
induction motor. It was rewound but achieved 80HP in a very small
package.
If not, Baldor makes a good choice. I use a modified-shaft EM3314T.
Pictures of my motor and the jig used to modify the shaft are on my
website, under Technical Details. The inside of the motor isn't
terribly symmetric but it works well. Note that this is not a vector
motor: See Baldor's http://www.baldor.com/pdf/literature/BR457.pdf ,
page 29, for details on the practical difference. It is better to
rewind a normal motor than to buy a vector motor because of cost (note
the Super-E comes with Inverter-Spike-Resistant windings).
Here is the performance of my car at only 60V (top speed 6MPH in
video, on grass): http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/60vrun.mov
- Arthur
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt
Mike Barber wrote:
I'm thinking about building an AC motor controller to control some
of the Siemens motors on the metric mind web site. I saw some
current ratings for the motors, and they give values of 282A rms. I
believe that this rms current rating is the sum of all the current
in the phases at once - can anyone verify this for me? 94A per
phase would be a lot easier to deal with than 282A per phase.
Thanks in advance.
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
Please note that only ACW-80-4 synchronous PM motor
can be sold alone (intent is to use it for APU unit
in which case inverter is optional).
Induction motors are sold only together with
inverters programmed for them as a package - this
is the only professional approach guaranteeing
proper and smooth operation.
If you want adventures, Ford's overstock Siemens
motors go on ebay now and then for half of metricmind's price.
Of course, no warranties, no support, no documentation,
as is, etc. So you're on your own.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Considering the regen that some EVs are able to use, it would make sense in
> a way to replace disk brakes with drum type brakes. Less drag, and they have
> self-actuating features, which help apply the brakes, lessoning the need for
> a power booster. Just my too sense.
> David C. Wilker Jr.
I'd give that one a long hard think before I replaced disc with drum brakes! First
off, with
normal, non-rusted, safe disc brakes there is minimal rolling resistance. If there was
any
significant friction, the brakes would overheat. Second, a fair number of EV carry a
pretty heavy
load of batteries making the brakes more critical than with the ICE car it was before.
Third, if
you don't have regen, you have no braking effect from the drive train, so your brakes
are all
you've got. Fourth, disc brakes are better brakes in general. Finally, disc or drum,
if a brake is
dragging, it's not working right and you should fix it. Disc brakes are just better
technology.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unfortunatly the ICE also had compression braking that brought the RPM's
down for you between shifts. From what I hear it can be 3 to 5 seconds
to shift clutchless without something to slow down motor. perhaps an
alternator to the aux battery whose field is on a shift buttton on the
stick or an ac compressor. I am considering the same but I also like
the "mechanical fuse" aspect the clutch adds.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10/27/2004 12:20 PM, you wrote:
Europositron may indeed be a load of BS. But if any technology does emerge
that allows an EV to go 500 miles on a charge, Rich Rudman may be selling
quite a few more of his PFC50's. For example, if a car that goes 500 miles
gets 200Wh/mile, then you'd need 100000Wh to recharge it. With 50A * 220V =
11000W, you'd still need over 9 hours even with a PFC50 to charge the thing
from home, best case.
Bill Dennis
After driving 500 miles I like to eat dinner, (1 hour), check email and
read (1 hour), get a good 8 hours of sleep, take a shower and have
breakfast (another hour). So 9 hours to recharge is no problem. Why do
people always worry about how long it takes to do things that do not
require constant monitoring.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudio Natoli" <
>
> Is there any reason to keep the clutch/flywheel assembly?
>
alot depends on your budget , size of controller , and tranny shaft .
If you can afford to buy the adptor plate which will come with the hub for
the fly wheel , then this is the quickest and you'll get somthing that
works for sure. I got my first form http://www.electroauto.com/ and it
looks and works very well. This will save you lots of time. Having a local
machinest make you adptor is , can be a problem , some are good and some are
not , it will also probable cost more as for them its not normal.
with a 1k zilla and a light car your won't have to do much or any shifting ,
and as you shound like you know how already ,
some tranny shaft's need to be supported by the poilet bearing , as Seth
points out.
drop in neutral, push
> toward desired gear and let the synchro do its thing... which I'm guessing
> should be pretty easy without the inertia load of the ICE and
> paraphernalia). Is this correct?.
>
Some tranny shift better than others , That the motor spins free can make it
a little slow on the shifting as it takes time for it to slow down .
> If I can, I wouldn't mind losing the entire weight of that assembly, and
> losing the inertial mass of the flywheel (not to mention fewer moving
> parts). Is there anything obvious I've forgotten? Any reason why I really
> ought to keep the clutch/flywheel in this situation? On the other hand,
are
> there any EV-ers here who've happily done away with the clutch?
>
I'm happy with both setups , I made a video on how to make your own adptor
plate with both clutch and clutchless. But if you can afford to buy the
adptor you'll save a lot of time , and know that its right. Problems with
the adptor plate down the road will not help that ev grin. If I where
building an EV I'd be on the list all the time asking about everthing , :-)
along these lines , on the nission I'm doing now , I put the motor at the
same place as the gas motor was , Then found that if the motor was a few
inches lower I could get 2 more batteies in the frount, so I cut and lowered
all the motor mounts and droped it down , some stuff to think about as your
laying thing out, .
www.grassrootsev.com
steve clunn
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip>
> I am considering the same but I also like
> the "mechanical fuse" aspect the clutch adds.
>
If you can search the archives, Bill Dube (sometimes spelled Bill Dube')
had some good comments about the huge shock to the transmission when you
hit a pothole.
As for me, I'm going clutchless, but hopefully not shiftless. My AC motor
can spin almost 10K rpm, and the thought of spinning a massive clutch
plate that fast scares me. The balance shop would not touch it after I
told him how fast it might go. And I was worried that the slighest
imbalance would bend the motor shaft.
What I ended up doing is machining an adaptor out of 7075 aluminum that
holds the inner portion of the clutch. It still has the springs between
the two parts of the clutch to help take up some of the shock, and a tiny
amount of misalignment. As for shifting, since my controler supports
regen, I believe I can make an embedded controller that will measure the
motor speed and the speed of the gears I will shift to, and quickly match
the RPMs for easier shifting.
I probably didn't need my home made adaptor balanced because they only
drilled two little holes (I'm sure just to make me feel like I got
something for my money!).
"What?!? you charged me $40 just to drill those two tiny little holes???"
"No, I charged you one dollar to drill those holes. I charged you $39 to
figure out where to put those holes!" :-)
- Steven Ciciora
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I tried clutchless on my 1984 Fiero conversion (Jim
Weirick owns it now)
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/264.html.
It was a real pain to shift!!! It took me at least
4-8 seconds of jamming the gear shift before it
meshed.
Rod
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Unfortunatly the ICE also had compression braking
> that brought the RPM's
> down for you between shifts. From what I hear it can
> be 3 to 5 seconds
> to shift clutchless without something to slow down
> motor. perhaps an
> alternator to the aux battery whose field is on a
> shift buttton on the
> stick or an ac compressor. I am considering the
> same but I also like
> the "mechanical fuse" aspect the clutch adds.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since I POSTed the url for the images taken at the Silicon Valley
EAA Chapter's Rally, you can assume I got there and back.
And I did it Electric.
Though I could not drive my Blazer EV, I did spend 2 hours
going 2.5 mph on the edge of the city streets. It was an
adventure to put it nicely.
I can only say that everyone should be a month without legs
and get around in either a wheelchair or one of these scooters
to know the seriousness of the issues the disabled talk about:
corners that have a ramp going up on side, but no ramp on the
other end of the block to let you cross the street, ramps that
are not at the corner but inset so ICE that whip around aren't
looking for you and will hit you, lack of bike lanes or sidewalks
to allow one to use the city streets, its amazing how inconsiderate
and dangerous drivers are who 'think' you should not be on
'their' road, etc.
The total trip to and from Palo Alto High School back to my
place in Redwood City was 4.5 hours for 11.5 miles = 2.5 mph.
After an overnight charge at 2 amps, the scooter's pack: two U1
agm batteries, was strong all the way there. Since it took so
long to get there, I was a bit out-of-sync with the festivities.
I missed their vendor's lunch window, and had to cross the
street to hunt for food in the shopping center. The restaurants
were packed and not disabled friendly. I bagged some stuff at a
drug store and returned to the EVent.
I do not want this POST to be just a rant of the disabled
access issues I experienced. I think you get the idea that it
was an all-day thing just to gain access to what everyone else
takes for granted (ie: there was a curb blocking access to the
EVent's porta-poddies, so I had to back over the drug store
and use their disabled-friendly restroom, etc.).
Bringing the scooter instead of 'being driven' to the EVent was
an advantage for me. Not only did I experience the trip there
and back, but I was able to zip around while at the EVent
(a lot of fun).
The Eent was quite different this year. There were a lot of
uncontrolled kids riding zappy-like scoots all over the place,
while a steady stream of conversion EVs returned from running
the Rally route: dropping off and pcking up another passenger
(giving free rides to the public). Lots of other stuff going
on too. Its always an EVent you do not want to miss.
A good display of different Electric and other cleaner vehicles.
The two hybrids that were parked at the end of the EV row, had
the most people standing around them (face-it, the media says
hybrids are in fashion).
No h2 fcvs this year, but I think that would not be hard to
arrange with two of them currently driving around SF city
streets. Maybe next year.
Since I am a charging-nut, and the scooter's charger only pumps
in single digit amps, I decided to hedge my charge and plant
myself for the rest of the EVent at the charging station.
I got to see some of the classic EVs, and all the various
adaptors to use standard conductive power. While they nursed
off a 14-50, I was sipping off a regular 120 VAC outlet.
The scooter's quoted range is 30 miles. I figured the 'real'
usable range that would not damage the pack was 25 miles.
Having already driven about 6 miles, the pack was still
strong. When I plugged into the 120 VAC 20 amp outlet (Nema
5-20), the on-board charger only pushed 2 amps into the pack.
I was there for about an hour and half. At 2 amps thats only
3 amp hours: not a whole lot. This was a different charging
experience from the pumping of over hundred amps into my
Blazer.
Even though the EVent was over, and people were still coming
in to ask EV questions, I unplugged and headed home. If I did
my usual 'EVangel': stay as long as it takes to answer all
their EV questions, I would not get out of there until after
dark. Since my scooter EV takes so long to get home, I had to
cut-n-run, err ... crawl.
The charge did not make that much difference in performance.
Half way home the pack was getting mushy (when climbing up
ramps: it was slower and the pack voltage was dipping more.
But I had calculated there was enough range to get home. I
hope so, the last 'being stranded without legs' experience
at the Menlo Park bus stop was not fun.
But I am a brave soul, and boldly struck out to ferret my
path in the dark as the sun was going down. Though I had
rear and front bike blinkers on and a front bike headlamp
shinning at on coming traffic, ICE drivers were even more
unaware of me each time I crossed an intersection parallel
with traffic (can you says almost run over?).
The last long climb up over the overpass near my home was
amazingly good. Though navigating the on and off ramp sidewalk
crossings (the most dangerous of all crossings) was slow to
accelerate with a mushy feel, the pack continued to put out.
The scooter speed was increasing as I climbed. Quite good
for only a pair of U1 agms that were 2/3 spent.
When I plugged in at home, the initial charge amperage was 4
amps, but that quickly tapered to 3 amps as the surface
voltage rose. It was fully charged by morning.
...
Much time has passed since the EVent. A couple of rainy days,
a couple of Doctors visits have occurred, my cast is off
(THANK GAWD), and I was given the boot (I have to wear a
big ol clunky support boot to keep from twisting my foot).
Yup, I am up and around hobbling on two legs. Doing my
daily routine or stretching exercises, I can walk on my
own without the boot (as long as the surface is flat and
I am real careful). No more crutches, no more cane.
I have built my leg up to where the Doctor said I could
now drive (Woo-Hoo). I quickly abandoned the scooter and
put the Blazer on charge overnight.
I figured even though I had throughly charged the Blazer's
pack a month ago, that long a period of time would have
drained the pack from self-discharge. US Batteries tend to
self-discharge more than Trojans when they are 'middle-aged'.
But they keep their capacity more than Trojans (so just
charged them and go!).
The charger did not finish its cycle. I figured it was the
same issue I had before I busted my leg. When I went to
do and errand, the pack was quite mushy, as if it was not
fully charged. When I sstompedon the current, the emeter
would blank out. That only happens when the pack is empty.
It only took a couple miles to do my errand, and the surface
voltage was not saying I was damaging the pack. I quickly
put the EV back on a charge when I returned.
In the morning, the charger was off. It had completed its
cycle. Hmmm ... it took two days (8+8=16 hours) of charging
at 10 amps into the 132 VDC pack to fully make up for the
amount of self discharge that had occurred. Wow, that's a
lot of amp hours.
But what is odd, is the charger actually 'finished' its
cycle. Before busted my leg, I was having problems getting
the pack to come up to a voltage for the charger to finish
its cycle. Now, it finished its cycle, and no over charging
going on (no boiling off of water or that wonderful smell
of SO4). Hmmm ...
Could a month long sitting revived my pack? Naaa ...
Could a very long and slow discharge and then a full
recharge be good for the pack? Hmmm ...
Further driving and charging has not had any problems.
Its spooky.
Happy Halloween :-)
-Bruce
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't help thinking that this scenario (motor with very high torque
and low moment of inertia, under direct computer control) is perfect
for a clutchless semiautomatic shifting system. Hmm... new controller
feature!
On Thu, 28 Oct 2004 06:24:03 -0700, Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Unfortunatly the ICE also had compression braking that brought the RPM's
> down for you between shifts. From what I hear it can be 3 to 5 seconds
> to shift clutchless without something to slow down motor. perhaps an
> alternator to the aux battery whose field is on a shift buttton on the
> stick or an ac compressor. I am considering the same but I also like
> the "mechanical fuse" aspect the clutch adds.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVAmeria makes adapters for clutchless operation. Here's a web page of
someone who uses one:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4429/cl3.htm
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Claudio Natoli
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 1:30 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Running clutchless?
Hello all,
this lurker is about to start on his first conversion (small car), and,
following on from the recent (and very helpful!) discussion over flywheel
machining, I had the following question:
Is there any reason to keep the clutch/flywheel assembly?
My conversion is going to be a commuter, so quick changes down the drag
strip aren't a must. Judging by my calcs, I figure I'll have the odd change
from 2nd to 3rd gear in the zippier parts of my commute... and I'm just
working on the assumption that changing gears without a clutch will be
pretty straightforward with an EV (ie. come off "gas", drop in neutral, push
toward desired gear and let the synchro do its thing... which I'm guessing
should be pretty easy without the inertia load of the ICE and
paraphernalia). Is this correct?.
If I can, I wouldn't mind losing the entire weight of that assembly, and
losing the inertial mass of the flywheel (not to mention fewer moving
parts). Is there anything obvious I've forgotten? Any reason why I really
ought to keep the clutch/flywheel in this situation? On the other hand, are
there any EV-ers here who've happily done away with the clutch?
Cheers,
Claudio
---
Certain disclaimers and policies apply to all email sent from Memetrics.
For the full text of these disclaimers and policies see
<a
href="http://www.memetrics.com/emailpolicy.html";>http://www.memetrics.com/em
ailpolicy.html</a>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gordon,
I wasn't worrying, just commenting on the fact that we're going to need
some high-power chargers as capacity increases.
Bill
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gordon Niessen
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 6:35 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: other side of the coin - Re: Hydrogen fuel
At 10/27/2004 12:20 PM, you wrote:
>Europositron may indeed be a load of BS. But if any technology does emerge
>that allows an EV to go 500 miles on a charge, Rich Rudman may be selling
>quite a few more of his PFC50's. For example, if a car that goes 500 miles
>gets 200Wh/mile, then you'd need 100000Wh to recharge it. With 50A * 220V
=
>11000W, you'd still need over 9 hours even with a PFC50 to charge the thing
>from home, best case.
>
>Bill Dennis
After driving 500 miles I like to eat dinner, (1 hour), check email and
read (1 hour), get a good 8 hours of sleep, take a shower and have
breakfast (another hour). So 9 hours to recharge is no problem. Why do
people always worry about how long it takes to do things that do not
require constant monitoring.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lightning Ryan wrote:
> umm, isn't "Dump Charging" technically directly connecting
> a higher potential pack to a lower potential pack?
> With no charging hardware between them?
It is in its purest form. However, it isn't practical unless you have
*some* hardware in between the batteries to keep from blowing things up.
I think a more general definition of "Dump Charging" is when you charge
one battery from another battery, with whatever hardware is needed
between them to control the charging process.
> The essence though remains, There must be a "Dump Pack"
> whose job it is to provide you with peak power not
> available from the grid at a particular location...
Right!
> Now, Fast Charging is simply charging a vehicle pack
> as quickly as that pack allows, whether it be from
> a big fat grid pipe or a smaller pipe and a dump pack.
Right. And, "fast" is relative. It means whatever seems "fast" to you
(or the guys selling it to you). Some people use the term to mean 10-15
minutes; others mean under an hour; others mean 4-6 hours.
> It's my understanding that any chemistry can be charged
> as quickly as it can be [dis]charged...
I think this is generally true, at least for short time periods. All
battery types have been used in EVs with regenerative braking, which can
produce very high charging currents, at least briefly.
If a battery has low charge efficiency, it overheats if you fast-charge
it for very long. Nimh has this problem; they need extensive cooling
systems if fast-charged.
Another problem is internal resistance. Most chemistries have a maximum
voltage limit, that you can't exceed without causing serious damage. If
a battery has low internal resistance, you can apply lots of current
before it rises to this limit; nicads are good in this regard. A battery
with high internal resistance can only accept a relatively low current
before hitting its voltage limit; some lithiums and flooded lead-acids
have this problem.
Voltage rises as a battery's state of charge increases. So, you
generally have to cut back the charge rate as you approach full charge,
to keep the voltage from going too high. This isn't a problem at low
charge rates, but it is at high rates. With lead-acids and nickel-iron,
this effect is so severe that you have to use a very low charge rate as
you approach full charge or heating and gassing become unsustainable.
With these chemistries, you can't possibly reach full charge in much
under 4-6 hours.
Finally, there is the life problem. There is certainly an "optimal"
charge rate for every battery. The curve is pretty flat, with a broad
range of "acceptable" charge rates in the center. For example, we can
charge a 100ah lead-acid at anything from 5-50 amps with little effect
on life. But, charge rates under 2-3 amps, or over 100 amps will shorten
its life.
> I don't see any reason that a PFC couldn't be used
> by anyone at a Fast Charge Station regardless of chemistry.
While PFC is nice, is isn't necessary (at least in the USA; there are
regulations that require it in Europe). The problem is that it is
complex and expensive. Americans tend to prefer cheap instead of good.
The nice thing about a dump charger is that the existing vehicle
controller can serve as the charge controller. Thus, you can have fast
charging without an expensive charger or huge AC power feed. The charger
that recharges the dump pack can be fairly small, simple, and
inexpensive.
> PbA is the Simplest, Choose the number of batteries or
> autodetect the length of the string and charge!
You never want to do this with fast charging! Just one bad cell, and you
can have a disaster on your hands!
Safety is a big problem with fast charging. Things can get very bad very
fast! You really need to be monitoring the voltage and temperature of
every battery in your pack, and shut off the fast charger if anything
goes wrong.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Claudio Natoli wrote:
> Is there any reason to keep the clutch/flywheel assembly?
Welcome to the EV list, Claudio.
I've had EVs with and without a clutch. There are pluses and minuses to
both approaches.
Most transmissions have no bearing at the engine end. They depend on the
pilot bearing in the center of the ICE crankshaft to support this end of
the shaft. Without a clutch/flywheel/pressure plate, you need to provide
this support in your coupler or motor shaft.
On one of my EVs, I had a coupler made that had this pilot bearing
inside it. On another, the end of the motor shaft itself was bored and
used. Both methods worked fine.
Without a clutch, you depend on the synchronizers in the transmission to
speed up / slow down the motor to match the transmission speed so the
gears will engage. How well this works depends on the transmission. Some
(especially high-mileage transmissions) have weak or worn-out
synchronizers -- this is where you get the 2-second shifts someone
mentioned.
I was lucky; my two clutchless EVs were a Datsun pickup and a ComutaVan
with a Studebaker Lark transmission. Both were crude, rugged,
transmissions with beefy synchronizers. If I pushed hard on the
gearshift, they shifted pretty fast; almost as fast as with a clutch. I
never had any trouble with the synchronizers.
On the other hand, my present EV is a Renault LeCar. I have a clutch,
and am glad I do. Its tinkertoy transmission and rubbery shift linkage
requires very long shifting times without a clutch.
Your best bet is to drive the car you plan to convert with its ICE, and
see how hard it is to shift without using the clutch. This is a good
worst-case test -- the electric motor without the flywheel assembly will
be much easier.
There are a couple more factors to consider.
A clutch provides an "emergency stop" function. EV motor controllers
tend to fail *ON*! You can't stop! Under full power, you can't jerk most
transmissions out of gear, so the clutch becomes the only way to stop.
Of course, the motor with then over-rev and destroy itself; but at least
you didn't run over anyone.
But a better alternative to a clutch is to provide a GOOD emergency stop
switch, to unconditionally cut power to the motor. All good EVs have
this, but beginners are inclined to leave them out. ("I jus' wanna go,
man! I don' need no steenkin' shutoff switch!" :-)
You are correct about not needing to shift an EV very often. Unless the
motor and controller are seriously undersized, you will find that you
usually leave it in 2nd or 3rd gear all the time. But if you *do*
undersize the motor and/or controller, then you will need to shift a
lot, and the clutch could be handy.
Certain controller/motor combinations have trouble with smooth starts.
For example, a Curtis 1221B with a 9" Advanced DC motor starts with an
annoying lurch. Many people drive with the clutch, just as they would
with ICE, to get smooth starts.
Without a clutch, shifting into reverse (and sometimes first) can be a
problem. These gears often lack synchronizers. Without a clutch or
synchronizers, you can "just happen" to stop so the high points of the
gears are lined up. They won't mesh -- you have to wiggle the gearshift,
put it in a different gear and then back in reverse, blip the throttle,
let the car roll a little, etc. to get it into gear. This only happens
rarely, but can be very annoying at the wrong time.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
does an one here use a torque converter and auto box?
does this set up work any better than gear
transmission?
just curious.
reb
--- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Claudio Natoli" <
>
> >
> > Is there any reason to keep the clutch/flywheel
> assembly?
> >
>
> alot depends on your budget , size of controller ,
> and tranny shaft .
> If you can afford to buy the adptor plate which will
> come with the hub for
> the fly wheel , then this is the quickest and
> you'll get somthing that
> works for sure. I got my first form
> http://www.electroauto.com/ and it
> looks and works very well. This will save you lots
> of time. Having a local
> machinest make you adptor is , can be a problem ,
> some are good and some are
> not , it will also probable cost more as for them
> its not normal.
>
> with a 1k zilla and a light car your won't have to
> do much or any shifting ,
> and as you shound like you know how already ,
> some tranny shaft's need to be supported by the
> poilet bearing , as Seth
> points out.
>
>
> drop in neutral, push
> > toward desired gear and let the synchro do its
> thing... which I'm guessing
> > should be pretty easy without the inertia load of
> the ICE and
> > paraphernalia). Is this correct?.
> >
> Some tranny shift better than others , That the
> motor spins free can make it
> a little slow on the shifting as it takes time for
> it to slow down .
>
>
>
>
> > If I can, I wouldn't mind losing the entire weight
> of that assembly, and
> > losing the inertial mass of the flywheel (not to
> mention fewer moving
> > parts). Is there anything obvious I've forgotten?
> Any reason why I really
> > ought to keep the clutch/flywheel in this
> situation? On the other hand,
> are
> > there any EV-ers here who've happily done away
> with the clutch?
> >
> I'm happy with both setups , I made a video on how
> to make your own adptor
> plate with both clutch and clutchless. But if you
> can afford to buy the
> adptor you'll save a lot of time , and know that its
> right. Problems with
> the adptor plate down the road will not help that ev
> grin. If I where
> building an EV I'd be on the list all the time
> asking about everthing , :-)
> along these lines , on the nission I'm doing now , I
> put the motor at the
> same place as the gas motor was , Then found that if
> the motor was a few
> inches lower I could get 2 more batteies in the
> frount, so I cut and lowered
> all the motor mounts and droped it down , some
> stuff to think about as your
> laying thing out, .
>
> www.grassrootsev.com
>
> steve clunn
>
>
>
>
> >
>
>
=====
Regards
Richard
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, I didn't do a clutch this time but had to put in a throttle blipper (red
button on the stick-shift) to make the uP set the rpm's to 1500 in order to
downshift (match synchros). Normal upshifting is ok, takes about two seconds
between gears. I start in 2nd, use 3rd and 4th but not 5th. I noticed that
the driveshaft coupling bolts occasionally come loose from the *clunk* when
starting. When I had a clutch it was smoother. I've driven about 65k miles
in the last 3 years clutchless but have driven 145k miles with a clutch in
my electro-metro and single speed in my cheese wedge about 120k miles since
I started driving ev's in the 70's.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 4:29 AM
Subject: Running clutchless?
>
> Hello all,
>
> this lurker is about to start on his first conversion (small car), and,
> following on from the recent (and very helpful!) discussion over flywheel
> machining, I had the following question:
>
> Is there any reason to keep the clutch/flywheel assembly?
>
> My conversion is going to be a commuter, so quick changes down the drag
> strip aren't a must. Judging by my calcs, I figure I'll have the odd
change
> from 2nd to 3rd gear in the zippier parts of my commute... and I'm just
> working on the assumption that changing gears without a clutch will be
> pretty straightforward with an EV (ie. come off "gas", drop in neutral,
push
> toward desired gear and let the synchro do its thing... which I'm guessing
> should be pretty easy without the inertia load of the ICE and
> paraphernalia). Is this correct?.
>
> If I can, I wouldn't mind losing the entire weight of that assembly, and
> losing the inertial mass of the flywheel (not to mention fewer moving
> parts). Is there anything obvious I've forgotten? Any reason why I really
> ought to keep the clutch/flywheel in this situation? On the other hand,
are
> there any EV-ers here who've happily done away with the clutch?
>
> Cheers,
> Claudio
>
> ---
> Certain disclaimers and policies apply to all email sent from Memetrics.
> For the full text of these disclaimers and policies see
> <a
>
href="http://www.memetrics.com/emailpolicy.html";>http://www.memetrics.com/em
> ailpolicy.html</a>
>
--- End Message ---
