EV Digest 3915
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Modular Chargers
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Feedback on EV high voltage system
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: PowerWheels Jeep vs. Peg Perego Gaucho Jeep
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Test Message Please Ignore
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: WATTABMR- Damage report (safty ideas)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Power wheels back online
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Feedback on EV high voltage system
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Modular Chargers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Attachments (was: Test Message Please Ignore)
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: variac turn-on? maybe ot
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: KPIX on Ford's Broken Promise
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: variac turn-on? maybe ot
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: PowerWheels Jeep vs. Peg Perego Gaucho Jeep
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Fw: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Modular Chargers
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Feedback on EV high voltage system (version 1.1)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Feedback on EV high voltage system
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) RE: Feedback on EV high voltage system (version 1.2)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Deka Intimidator Sale
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Modular Chargers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Fw: STM5-180 NiCad
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Hybrid compared to EV in fuel cost.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by "MYLES ANTHONY TWETE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You got it. Given difficulties to judge what the SOC is,
you realize the challenge, right?
Don Cameron wrote:
What is the difference between equalization and balancing? Is it that
equalization pertains to the voltage, and balancing pertains to the SOC?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: November 15, 2004 2:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Modular Chargers
Lee Hart wrote:
I think a more practical route to do this would be to build a contactor
controller, with (say) twelve 3.6v 500ah cells. The contactors can wire
them for 3.6v, 7.2v, 10.8v, 14.4v, 21.6v, or 43.2v. Use a 36v 1000a
forklift motor. Now you have a high-efficiency controller, and can wire
all the cells in parallel for automatic balancing.
Lee, wiring the cells in parallel will in a while equalize voltages on them,
but will not
*balance* them.
I connect 100Ah and 10Ah cells in parallel and run 3.6V charger to this
pair.
Are they balanced?
Point is, the same name plate capacity cellsare not the same capacity.
Yes, equalizing voltages is better than nothing, but it isn't "balancing".
I think for newbies we have to make this distinction, and then they can
decide what is good enough for them.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Farver wrote:
While I would recommend breaking both sides of the pack, it is not
required, especially for the AC system where motor leakage is not an
issue.
As a side note I wish victor would sell the contactors in two separate
junction boxes. They would be smaller and easier to mount in the car,
and you could install the negative and positive contactors closers to
the ends of the pack, lessening the amount of energized wiring when shut
down.
Don,
Whatever you do, do not saw in half precirge circuit PCB and throw away
main contactors box
(as Mark did since he didn't like the integration of these components,
and as a result precharge
PCB was destroyed. Moreover, as a result of trying to improve design,
$600 contactors were
destroyed as well - ceramic bases were broken off. All these components
had to be ordered
and replaced, and as soon as original configuration was adhered to, the
reliability of vehicle
operation was restored).
Talk to me before modifying anything supplied. The way the system
components are
designed and implemented was well thought out by professionals and there
are good reasons
for particular arrangement you and others have.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$4 per gallon for H2 derived from Natural Gas due to inefficiencies from Air
Products H2 supplier. Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV
> What is the cost of the Hydrogen per gallon of gas equlivant? Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 5:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV
>
>
> > Lawrence,
> >
> > That is about right...150 to 200 miles depending on
> > who is driving. As you noted that is a sizeable
> > vehicle (and heavy).
> > As for being ~90 miles from Sacramento, there are
> > atleast a couple fueling stations in the bay area
> > where the car can refuel on the way home (i believe
> > Chevron just opened a new one in Oakland).
> >
> > Oh yeah, no 'anti-static suit' required (don't believe
> > everything you read on the EVDL). Takes just a couple
> > minutes to re-fuel, easy enough for you or I to do it.
> >
> >
> > ~Fortunat
> >
> > --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> How much range Fortunat? It was 90 miles from
> >> Sacramento. The plates were
> >> Michigan plates. It had the funny little Japanese
> >> mirrors up front on the
> >> fenders. I'm assuming a 150 to 200 mile range.
> >> Lawrence Rhodes......
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:55 AM
> >> Subject: Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV
> >>
> >>
> >> > Lawrence,
> >> >
> >> > was it greenish ?
> >> > I assume when you say dealer plates, you mean
> >> > M-plates, right ?
> >> > I think that is one of ours (not really ours, but
> >> we
> >> > did all the hard work :)). There are four of these
> >> X
> >> > trail vehicles that live at the California Fuel
> >> Cell
> >> > Partnership in Sacramento. I assume this is one of
> >> > them.
> >> >
> >> > I am glad to hear it is getting some use.
> >> >
> >> > ~fortunat
> >> >
> >> > --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I was driving across the Bay Bridge Wednesday
> >> night
> >> >> and fell in line behind
> >> >> a Nissan FCV. The name was X-Trail. It was big.
> >> >> Michigan dealer plates.
> >> >> Typical Japanese setup as far as the mirrors. A
> >> >> real concept car. God
> >> >> knows what they were doing driving it across
> >> >> country. Lawrence
> >> >> Rhodes.......
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > __________________________________
> >> > Do you Yahoo!?
> >> > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> >> > www.yahoo.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
> > www.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Before WW2 there were a bunch of what I guess you'd call "quadracycles".
They had four spoked wheels like a bicycle or motorcycle. Most were
gasoline, some were electric.
No, it wasn't that.
After WW2, they became more car-like. They vaguely resembled the cars of
the day; ladder frame, metal or wood "british sports car" like body,
etc. My grandfather had a "buckboard", which was sold by Sears. It was
basically a wood-framed go-kart. The electric version had a car
generator used as a motor. The gasoline version had a 5th wheel directly
geared to the motor. The "clutch" pedal simply lowered it against the
road!
Closer. This looked like a small sedan from the 50's/early 60's.
Rectangular.
In the 50's and 60's, there were lots of pressed-metal sidewalk
vehicles; cars, trucks, tractors, etc. Most were pedal-powered. The
electric ones had what looked like a car windshield wiper motor, and a
U1-size battery.
Closer, however the motor was a good bit bigger. Larger than a starter
motor by a good bit. I'm really trying to remember if it had a
differential proper; it might have just powered one wheel in the back by
direct drive. It did however have full drum brakes on the rear, I
remember those being apart when I was little and seeing the two shoes
and springs.
The rear was spaced to fit 2 T105's in the back; one got to the
batteries by removing the back seat pad.
In the 70's you started to get kiddie cars with sealed gel-cell
batteries and what looked like cordless electric drill PM motors. A
friend had one; it had a frame made out of bent electrical conduit,
lawnmower type wheels, a masonite floor, and molded plastic body much
like today's Powerwheels.
That would be the Bearcat. It had spoked plastic wheels with some sort
of tire, and a plastic body. No power at all, with a small motor.
The way you describe it, I wonder if it was a King Midget. This was a
tiny 1-seat car that actually went (barely) fast enough to drive on the
street. There were both electric and gas versions. They were mostly sold
as kits out of the back of Popular Science and the like.
I looked at the site, wasn't a King Midget that I could see. It might
have been based on that frame, I don't know.
Somewhere we have kid pictures of me. I'll look and find them.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems a successfull picture inside test,
Red but not a ferrari ;^)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 2:07 PM
Subject: Test Message Please Ignore
> Hi folks,
>
> Just ignore this, it is just a test.
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, There are two open circuit safety circuits in the PFC chargers. A fast
one that turns off the gate drives when the output threshold is reached
rapidly and a slower one that regulates the voltage at the limit. Each one
is set separately by pots on the main power board.
Lee is correct in stating that there is a lot of energy stored in the boost
inductor. We put enough capacitor inside the charger to absorb the peak
inductor energy without going over the 600 Volt boost transistor avalanche
rating. The most likely situation to cause this fault would be a blown
output fuse or a circuit breaker opening between the charger and the battery
pack.
The only provision for clamping the voltage at 200 volts is if the installer
adjusted the safety circuits down from 400 volts. Even if the voltage were
adjusted that low, the inductor dump could still bring the voltage up over
400 volts. It is a very bad idea to put a Todd on the same fuse as a PFC
charger for this reason.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Ames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: WATTABMR- Damage report (safty ideas)
> Michael,
> So your Todd was damaged because you exceeded its DC input maximum
> voltage by a whole lot?
>
> This concerns me as I also have a Todd and PFC.
> I wonder what kind of safety device options are easy and simple ?
> When the PFC is connected to the mains it energizes a relay whose
> contacts disconnects the Todd from the main pack.
> Or if you need to charge the 12V battery during this time is it feasible
> to use a voltage clamping device like a varistor, is their even
> something big andd watty enough to handle that.
> I want to avoid a smoking Todd myself.
> Danny...
>
> michael bearden wrote:
> >
> > I have almost finished removing the batteries from my wrecked EV. There
> > are still two left in the last compartment in front of the motor, next
> > to the vacuum pump. The only defininite causalty electrically was the
> > Todd DC/DC which was a victim of "That's Incredibly Stupid, Entry #
> > 999". The day of the accident, I turned on the emergency flashers, then
> > found out that I couldn't turn them off after the tow truck dropped
> > WATTABMR off at my house. So, I switched off the Todd, thinking that
> > the dinky little 12v battery would run down in a little while. (I
> > couldn't open the hood to disconnect it)
> > In the morning, I got the pry bars and wrenched the hood open, then
> > decided that I would charge the pack fully so all of the batteries would
> > be charged before I started pulling regs and batteries out.
> > I ran a line out to the PFC, and turned it on, then thought, "Oh, I
> > could charge the 12v. too, just switch on the Todd" (I have always
> > switched it off during charging). Well, I don't know why, but the PFC
> > ran up very quickly to very high voltage, and all of the smoke that was
> > stored in the Todd came pouring out. It may have been that the main
> > breaker for the pack had opened, I don't know, but how Incredibly
> > Stupid, to fry a hard to replace DC converter to charge a $10 battery
> > that didn't need to be charged.
> > Live and learn.
> > On the whole, I was very pleased to see that my racks held, no batteries
> > broke loose, nothing obviously shorted out, and no batteries show any
> > real damage. There are some bolt marks imprinted on a few cases, some
> > scuffs and scratches, but no separations or posts pulled.
> > Considering that this was a pretty heavy EV to start with carrying 1440
> > lb. of Optimas when it hit a almost non-moving pick-up at close to
> > 40mph, I feel pretty good about it.
> > Michael B.
> >
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, See http://www.manzanitamicro.com/PW%20jeep.html and
http://www.geocities.com/sorefeets/ev/powerwheels/rudmanised.txt
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 5:43 AM
Subject: Re: Power wheels back online
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 1:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Power wheels back online
>
>
> > You can make some rubber bands from car inner tubes that fit the tires
> like
> > tire chains. It cuts down on the slippage in the grass.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2004 5:49 PM
> > Subject: Power wheels back online
> >
> >
> > > What I
> > > really need now is some better tires, since the thing will slide with
> > > the plastic wheels against wet grass.
> >
> Hi Power Wheelers;
>
> Couldn't ya get RID of those horrible plastic wheels and replace with
> the generic hardware store replacment wheels sold for lawnmowers and stuff
> like that? Or the pneumatic offerings from, Harbor Freight or Northern
> Tools? Make it a quiet EV, Used to hate the racket all those plastic crap
> toys made on the concrete, because of the cheezy wheels. I did that with
> every plastic wheeled THINGS when the kids were little.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> >Is your charger isolated? If not, remember that ALL high voltage wiring
> should be built to UL/NEC type standards. Things connected to >the AC line
> (either directly or indirectly) have to survive tremendous voltage peaks.
> At
> a minimum, everything has to survive 1500
> >volts to ground.
>
> I intend on using a PFC-30. Yes, I will isolate the charger from the
> frame
> of the car (Rich suggested this when I spoke with him). I am a little
> concerned that the heater high voltage may be a weak link and not be up to
> the 1500 volt isolation. Any suggestions?
You might try wiring in the heater *after* the main contactors. This has
the disadvantage of not allowing you to run the heater with the ignition
off, but insures that the heater will never be connected while the AC is
connected to the charger (assuming you use a charge interlock relay to
disable the contactors while AC is connected, which is a good idea).
This is the method I ended up going with for my car. Of course, my concern
was with the normal fully charged pack voltage (in my case, worst-case
scenario could be close to 400V) being too much for the heater, rather than
surges from the AC line.
Bryan Avery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Thomasson wrote:
> I'm curious about how these symmetrical contactor controllers work
> on a practical, everyday basis. Specifically, that last voltage
> jump from 21.6 to 43.2v seems like a big speed change.
It depends on what kind of motor you have. If it is a PM motor, it tries
to run at a speed directly proportional to voltage. So, a 2:1 voltage
step tries to cause a 2:1 speed change. This is indeed rather abrupt.
When you double the voltage, the motor tries to *instantly* double its
speed. Its current draw goes up considerably, and it produces
considerably more torque in an effort to do this. It only works when the
motor, wiring, batteries, etc. have so much resistance that it softens
the speed changes.
If it is a series motor, then voltage does *not* (directly) control
speed. As Joe Smalley points out, a series motor behaves like a resistor
whose value changes directly proportional to speed. This means if you
double the voltage, you only double the current. This produces a much
milder increase in torque, and so a lot less "jerk" between speeds.
This is why simple contactor controllers are tolerable with series
motors.
> I suppose you would constantly accelerating and decelerating between
> the two pack voltages? Is this an annoying characteristic, or do we
> adjust naturally to the throttle movements back and forth and not
> notice the changes?
All cars speed up and slow down without you moving the throttle. Roads
are rarely flat, there are headwinds, potholes, passing trucks, etc. We
are always unconsciously moving the accellerator pedal up/down to
maintain the speed we want.
The same is true in a vehicle with a contactor controller. If there are
"enough" steps (at least 3; and 6 is plenty), then the change in motor
power between speeds is not really noticeable.
> P.S. Great concept! Where can we buy these low voltage, high
> current contactors?
When the contact voltage is under 36v or so, arcing is no longer a
problem. This allows considerably simpler, cheaper contactors. Also,
such contactors are mass-produced for all sorts of applications.
Remember that in a contactor controller, no single contactor typically
has to switch full voltage or full current; the load is divided between
many of them.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm. Does the fact that an attachment got through indicate that the
EVDL's attachment filter got turned off? Sure looks like it...
-Ken Trough
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Murray wrote:
> Maybe I should try to model the variac in Spice and see she does.
This is one of those cases where Spice is useless. Real inductors are a
*long* way away from the idealized inductors Spice uses. Sure, you could
make a complex model that included all the side effects, but your model
gets so complicated that you have to do extensive evaluations of the
real parts to insure that your model is any good.
In the end, you just have to hook up some real parts, and test them!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great spot. Marc you were great. Good interview. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Geller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 12:55 PM
Subject: KPIX on Ford's Broken Promise
KPIX launched its new program "Thirty Minutes" with a report on "Ford's
Broken Promise" of alternative fuel vehicles. Focussing on the
cancellation of the Th!nk and Ford's CNG line, its quite an indictment.
Available for viewing at:
http://homepage.mac.com/dybbuk
Do send your feedback to Anna Werner. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Business models make money. Bottom line. It appears Ford thinks electric
vehicles will take from their bottom line. Lawrence Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:39 PM
Subject: Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
Danny Ames wrote:
Sue Ciske was calling the Ford Think City program an experiment to find
out if this is technology that had any future and we found it didn't.
Reporter Anna Werner, "but these were popular cars"
Sue Ciske, "Right but is that were you think the American Auto Industry
is going to a bunch of little go carts that are driving around, at the
end of the day it did not fit with our business model"
All they need to do then is change their business model, so EVs will fit.
Simple as that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Nov 2004 at 13:09, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Nobody...not even the Saftey Iso Nuts on this list....have Bellied up to the
> Bar to buy one.
True - and sorry! I'm one of those "Safety Iso Nuts," but I already have an
isolated charger - and a spare. When I've let the smoke out of 'em, we'll
talk. <g>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
How is the world ruled, and how do wars start? Diplomats
tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read.
-- Karl Kraus
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--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Nov 2004 at 16:14, Lee Hart wrote:
> The way you describe it, I wonder if it was a King Midget. This was a
> tiny 1-seat car that actually went (barely) fast enough to drive on the
> street.
The earliest King Midgets may have been one-seaters, but at least the series
II and III cars (produced from some time in the 1950s) were big enough for
two - if they were really good friends. <g>
Midgets were built here in Ohio - in Athens, IIRC. I used to have a factory
brochure, but I haven't been able to find it for some years.
I once entertained thoughts of finding a Midget and converting it to to
electric drive, but I suspect it'd be even more of a challenge to find room
for enough of a battery than it would be to find the car in the first place.
http://www.kingmidgetcarclub.org/
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Republicans have perfectly nice manners, normal hair,
pleasant smiles, good deodorants; but when it comes down
to cases, you do not want them to be monitoring your oxygen
flow. They will set it to the minimum required to sustain basic
brain function, and then they will recite a little prayer for you.
-- Garrison Keillor
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Statement from 30 Minutes the local 60 minute clone. Sue Ciske is a Ford
Representative. Lawrence Rhodes..
Sue Ciske was calling the Ford Think City program an experiment to find
out if this is technology that had any future and we found it didn't.
Reporter Anna Werner, "but these were popular cars"
Sue Ciske, "Right but is that were you think the American Auto Industry
is going to a bunch of little go carts that are driving around, at the
end of the day it did not fit with our business model"
I thought the idea of business models was to make money. Maybe a letter
writing campagin is in order. Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What is the difference between equalization and balancing?
> Is it that equalization pertains to the voltage, and
> balancing pertains to the SOC?
Mostly some fine hair-splitting, I think. ;^>
Equalisation typically refers to deliberate deliberate overcharging
performed to bring cells that are at a lower state of charge up to
100%SOC while simultaneously undesirably overcharging any cells in the
string that already happen to be fully charged.
The goal of balancing is generally also to try to bring all of the
cells/modules/batteries to the same state of charge. This is usually
done by making the voltages as equal as possible, on the assumption that
voltage is either a reasonable indicator of SOC, or that it is the only
practical indicator available even if it is not a great indicator of
SOC.
As Victor points out, voltage is not an indicator of *capacity*, so a
10Ah and 100Ah cell may be brought to the same voltage, indicating that
they are at the same SOC, yet the available capacity will still differ.
This is where the "usual" qualifier enters my prior statement about
balancing... for some, the goal of balancing may not be to achieve equal
SOC, but rather to achieve equal capacity when batteries/cells in the
string have different capacities (so that the batteries/cells all reach
dead at the same time, instead of the weakest/smallest capacity module
limiting the overall capacity). I think the difference is subtle since
transferring energy from the 100Ah cell to the 10Ah cell to keep their
voltages similar (similar SOC) during discharge will have exactly the
effect of propping up the 10Ah cell's apparent capacity so that the
capacity of the string is near to the 55Ah average of the 2 cells.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, I have revamped the circuit. Version 1.1 can be found at:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/images/High%20Voltage%20System.jpg
Here is what I have done based upon the feedback from Mark, Lee, Al and
Gary:
1. I have moved the ammeter, voltmeter and heater on the other side of the
contactors. This will ensure there are no potential high voltage spikes in
those circuits.
2. The 3 phase breaker will break various places within the battery supply
(almost) isolating each pack when turned off.
3. I will ensure that I have an interconnect which disconnects the
contactors if the charger is connected to AC.
Question: The output ground of the PFC charger is to be connected to the
vehicle body ground. But I am a bit confused: for complete isolation, should
I not be trying to isolate the chassis of the charger from the body? Maybe
I need a good lesson is isolation - any web site references?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: November 15, 2004 7:59 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Feedback on EV high voltage system
While (still) waiting for my adapter plate to come back from the machine
shop, I am designing the high voltage system. Since my ASCII art is pretty
rough, I have placed a schematic JPG at
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/images/High%20Voltage%20System.jpg
NOTE: this does not show any of the 12v system, including charger interlock,
heater control circuit, etc.
A few things to note:
1. each battery box has an Anderson connector
2. I am using a big 600VAC 3 phase circuit breaker (wired in series) to
switch the 312VDC. This is lighter and cheaper than 3 fuses and a set of
Kilovac EV200 contactors for protection/pack switching. The only downside
is that I am only switching one side of the circuit - is this a serious
issue?
3. The charger is before the circuit breaker (as per Bob Brant's book)
4. The high voltage heater is before the contactors
Any helpful comments are always appreciated (and documented for others).
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe Dave Stensland did this in his truck (put the heater after the
main contactor). Once he left the heater on before the controller turned
on the main contactor. I believe the pre-charge circuitry ended up trying
to power the heater, killing the precharge fet.
Something to think about...
Steven Ciciora
> You might try wiring in the heater *after* the main contactors. This has
> the disadvantage of not allowing you to run the heater with the ignition
> off, but insures that the heater will never be connected while the AC is
> connected to the charger (assuming you use a charge interlock relay to
> disable the contactors while AC is connected, which is a good idea).
>
> This is the method I ended up going with for my car. Of course, my
> concern
> was with the normal fully charged pack voltage (in my case, worst-case
> scenario could be close to 400V) being too much for the heater, rather
> than
> surges from the AC line.
>
> Bryan Avery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to Mark, Lee, Al, Gary, Victor and Bryan.
My version 1.1 email to the list seems to have gotten lost. However,
Version 1.2 of the circuit can be found at:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/images/High%20Voltage%20System.jpg and has
the following changes:
1. I have moved the ammeter, voltmeter and heater on the other side of the
contactors. This will ensure there are no potential high voltage spikes in
those circuits.
2. The 3 phase breaker will break various places within the battery supply
(almost) isolating each pack when turned off.
3. I will ensure that I have an interconnect which disconnects the
contactors if the charger is connected to AC.
4. Fuses for each battery pack as a backup to the breaker.
Questions:
1. In the install instructions, the output ground of the PFC charger is to
be connected to the vehicle body ground. When I spoke with Rich, he
suggested that the frame of the charger to be isolated from the body of the
car. Are these the same? For complete isolation, should I not be trying to
isolate the chassis of the charger from the body? Maybe I need a good
lesson is isolation - any web site references?
2. Should I have a relay which disconnects the charger from the main lines
when no AC is connected to the PFC charger?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: November 15, 2004 7:59 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Feedback on EV high voltage system
While (still) waiting for my adapter plate to come back from the machine
shop, I am designing the high voltage system. Since my ASCII art is pretty
rough, I have placed a schematic JPG at
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/images/High%20Voltage%20System.jpg
NOTE: this does not show any of the 12v system, including charger interlock,
heater control circuit, etc.
A few things to note:
1. each battery box has an Anderson connector
2. I am using a big 600VAC 3 phase circuit breaker (wired in series) to
switch the 312VDC. This is lighter and cheaper than 3 fuses and a set of
Kilovac EV200 contactors for protection/pack switching. The only downside
is that I am only switching one side of the circuit - is this a serious
issue?
3. The charger is before the circuit breaker (as per Bob Brant's book)
4. The high voltage heater is before the contactors
Any helpful comments are always appreciated (and documented for others).
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ray;
Yes! Keep us informed in the US, would be interested, maybe, in a pac of
Dekas' Thinking of a lighter higher voltage car. Heard nothing but good
stuff about Dekas.
Seeya
Bob.
Massive order, maybe, like a truck, or RR car load?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2004 9:22 PM
Subject: Deka Intimidator Sale
> Quick note: I am about to approach Deka, for whom I am a distributor,
about
> a large quantity of the new Intimidators. I belong to two racing forums
and
> one 4 x 4 forum. The thought being if a lot of people are interested, I
> might be able to purchase them well below my normal cost. Then if I don't
> mark them up, anyone interested could get a smoking deal. (EV listers will
> get at cost, plus a $10.00/20.00 handling fee on the order, the other
forums
> will pay like cost plus $10 per battery. Paperwork takes time, and my book
> keeper isn't free)
> It would be helpful to me that if anyone might want to consider this, they
> give a heads up. I am thinking something for the months of December and
> January. I should be able to have them drop shipped to a dealer near you,
> possible to your door even. Canadians and those from Ontario will have to
> pay tax. Tax/duty free for everyone else. So this might be a cheap way to
> replace a battery pack for some people. Let me know what you think, and I
> will get some tentative pricing. (I am going for a promotional price,
well,
> well, below regular pricing).
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Lee, wiring the cells in parallel will in a while equalize
> voltages on them, but will not *balance* them.
Yes, I know. This works for lead-acids, where voltage is a function of
state of charge; so paralleled lead-acids do tend to self-balance.
But it works less well for other technologies. With nicads, it tends to
work during discharge, but not during charging, and it won't work at all
if the cells aren't at the same temperature.
I really don't know how well it would work with lithium-ions. The
Thunder Skys I have tell me the self-balancing effect exists, but is
much weaker than for lead-acids.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark and All,
The only way to tell if a ni-cad batt is good
is with a capacity test like Phillipe suggested.
Another thing to look out for is a white
crust growing inside the case. If more than 10% of
the surface is covered, beware.
But the real proof is to is how much they
will hold. Put a couple cycles on them first to get
the chemicals moving together. Low ones cycle a few
more times and see if they come up.
Voltage is NO help on how good they are.
My SAFT's are getting near 30 yrs old now and
still going strong over rated cap.
It's a lot of work but worth it as they are
likely to last 20 more yrs if not abused badly. They
are hard batts to kill. I've done things to mine that
would destroy any other batt like leaving them on a C1
charge for 12 hrs!!! Put water in them and they went
back working!
I'd really try to get them cheaper!!! They will
have costs, hassle recycling them so may be willing to
lower the costs to get rid of them.
SAFTs generally are 110% of their rated value
cap wise so start your measuring from there. I'd be
surprised if many were lower than 100% rated amphrs.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone have an email or phone contact at Saft
> to answer some questions? I'm trying to figure out
> how much life is left in 1996' NiCad batteries.
> Thanks, Mark
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mark Hanson
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 8:27 AM
> Subject: STM5-180
>
>
> Dear Saft,
>
> There are your Ni-Cad STM5-180 batteries from 1996
> that were used in AVS Electric busses being sold
> from California for $200 ea. I'll need 20 +2 spares
> for my Electric Jeep and was wondering how these
> batteries can be tested to ensure that a long life
> is left? What is the typical cycle life? Do I do a
> discharge measurement and see if it is still 180 AH?
> Is it a linear relationship, if I have 170ah left,
> per se, then I would have 94% life left? Do you have
> a graph of AH remaining VS expected life cycles?
>
> Thanks, Mark E. Hanson
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This doesn't translate well from HTML. The numbers beside the EV's are
range.
2004 Toyota Prius
2003 Toyota RAV4 EV
2001 Nissan Hyper-Mini
2000 Nissan Altra EV
Side-by-Side
MPG (city) 60 Toyota Prius
125 Toyota RAV4 EV
120 Nissan Hyper-Mini
117 Nissan Altra EV
MPG (hwy) 51 Toyota Prius
100 Toyota RAV4 EV
94 Nissan Hyper-Mini
130 Nissan Altra EV
MPG (comb) 55 Toyota Prius
112 Toyota RAV4 EV
107 Nissan Hyper-Mini
123 Nissan Altra EV
Annual Fuel Cost
$554 Toyota Prius
$362 Toyota RAV4 EV
$379 Nissan Hyper-Mini
$332 Nissan Altra EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Several weeks ago I mentioned that I wanted to build a solar charging
shed for my Elec-Trak I-5. As is so often the case in these projects,
it has taken on a life of it's own.
My wife and I are in the process of designing/building a new house.
This house, when completed will be grid attached, but will have a
substantial solar/wind power system to provide for 90+ % of it's energy
needs.
Since all of my electric vehicles are 36v, (ET-12M ET I-5, Golf cart) I
had thought about making the whole system 36v. That way, in a pinch,
the energy stored in the ET's and or the Golf Cart could be used for
backup house power. By my calculations, a fully charged Elec-Trak with
good batteries could provide 100% of my homes energy for more than a
day. That is a very NICE backup indeed.
I can find 36v wind turbines to add to the system easily. Solar panels
can be wired 3 in series for a 36v nominal array, and I can find 36v
charge controllers easily enough on the internet. My problem is finding
a 36v 60 hz true-sine inverter of sufficient power.
I can find 36v 50hz models all day long. They are common down under,
but a 60 hz version I can't seem to find. Ideally I want to provide my
house with 220 60 hz power. For a 12, 24, or 48v system, that is
typically done by putting two 110v 60 hz systems in series.
Does anyone know of EITHER a manufacturer of 36v powered 60hz 110 sine
wave inverters, OR 36v powered 60hz 220 sine wave inverters, OR know of
a product that can convert 36v powered 50 hz 220 sine wave into 220 60 hz?
Thanks in Advance.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not many choices James-
Best bet might be the Tripplite APS inverter/chargers:
http://www.lashen.com/vendors/tripplite/inverters/aps.asp#APS3636VR
They run about $1000. 3600w continuous, 7200w peak....unsure if you can stack
these for 220v.
I've been thinking of getting one of these for my 36v boat battery
charger---they're rated at 30A charging.
-Myles Twete, Portland
--- End Message ---
