EV Digest 3917
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV digest 3913 - attachments getting through?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV digest 3913 - attachments getting through?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Attachments (was: Test Message Please Ignore)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) E-meter programming experts!
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: please help with cable specs
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: How best to replace stinker?
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) High Capacity Li-Polymer Cells
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: please help with cable specs
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 36V Solar Power System (OT?)
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) wobbly flywheel and other assorted questions
by Brian Staffanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: variac turn-on? maybe ot
by "Arthur Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Heater isolation (was Feedback on EV high voltage system)
by Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: variac turn-on? maybe ot
by "Arthur Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Ni-Cad charging
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Feedback on EV high voltage system (version 1.2)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Hello
by "Rmanzan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Heater isolation (was Feedback on EV high voltage system)
by "Bryan Avery" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---Ryan Bohm wrote:
Has anyone else been seeing attachments coming with the digest? I have seen a joke.scr and price.com - these look fishy to me, and of course I haven't tried opening them. I thought the EVDL blocked attachments?
Yes, it is supposed to block attachments. I ran that test email with an attachment, and low an behold it came through. Something is certainly amiss. David any idea what we can do about this?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---Victor wrote:
Mike Chancey just sent out "Please ignore" test message and attached small image of Civic; and this is first time I see .jpg image attached to an email to the list getting through.
Have the settings to filter out attachments indeed changed? That would be disasterous...
Yes, I did, and yes that is a very very bad sign. It shouldn't have worked. I was sure it wouldn't. Somebody seems to have made a mistake and switched off the filters. We have got to get them back on.
PLEASE! NO ATTACHMENTS FOLKS! We have got to get this corrected ASAP.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
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--- Begin Message ---Hi, I've gotten three e-mails since the beginning of last week which had attachments which came through the list. One had a virus (Netsky?) *.scr file in it which came through. Though, I use Linux so it isn't a big issue for me. ;-) -Nick 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV http://Go.DriveEV.com/ ---------------------------------------------- On Tue, 2004-11-16 at 12:46, Ken Trough wrote: > Hmm. Does the fact that an attachment got through indicate that the > EVDL's attachment filter got turned off? Sure looks like it... > > -Ken Trough
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--- Begin Message ---Hi All, Something was lost from my grey matter between the Rabbit and the Civic conversions, or else the E-meter has changed! Hopefully someone can show me where I've gone wrong: Symptoms: - eMeter not flashing when batts. are full - eMeter not tallying cycles. Background: -pack under 6 mos. old. -144 volts -US8VGCHC 144V pack. Parameters it is programmed with right now: -175V min. level voltage must rise above to be "full" -1.25 Peukert's exponent -3A finish charge Charger is a PFC-20 that is set to do 15A at current hold, then goes down of course. My hunch is that my CEF is not correct. What would you set it at? Thanks! ===== '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V ____ __/__|__\ __ =D-------/ - - \ 'O'-----'O'-' Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---richard ball [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > what is the > metric equivalent of #4 welding cable and how is this > different to AWG 2? the current draw on the etek is 300+ > Amps max what cable and lugs does everyone think I should use Here is a handy table of AWG vs diameter and crossection in mm and mm^2: <http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/awg_e.html> Here is a table of ampacity for copper cable: <http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_5/chpt_3/2.html> Either #4 or #2 will work fine since your Etec can't take 300A+ for very long at all before it fries, and your controller probably can't supply it for very long either. #4 is pretty typical in golf carts and NEVs with peak currents in the same 300-400A ballpark. If your vehicle can afford the additional weight of the #2, it would be a nice option. Cheers, Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---Hi Mike,
If you can't find a comparable used US250HC, I suggest installing a new one, with a regulator across it to prevent it getting over-charged. The new battery will be more efficient than the rest of the pack and suffer at the end of charging, otherwise. With a regulator on this new battery only, to bypass current once above about 7.4V, it should be the strongest link instead of the weakest link of the pack.
Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:58 PM
Subject: How best to replace stinker?
Hi everybody. A couple of weeks ago one of my batteries went bad. I had what Bob Rice calls a "trojan teakettle". I had to leave the Citroen out at the cottage and press the Mazda into service (nice thing about having 2 evs). On Sunday I went out there to check things out. With a fully charged but c-cold pack I drove up and down the road for 30 Ah then parked and checked voltages with just the heaters on. With the heaters drawing 30 amps #14 was down to 5.7 volts; the others were all clustered around 6.9 volts. No way this caniche is going anywhere without a replacement.
What is the best way to replace this battery? It is a US250HC, nominally 275Ah. The battery box can accommodate a variety of replacements. I can't find a used replacement of that capacity. I do have a couple of used T-105's. Or I could buy new. I've read on this list that it is not a good thing to put a new one in a string of oldies. These guys are a year and a half old, with 175 cycles according to the emeter. I presume that if I put in a new 250HC, then it will tend to get overcharged (?) as I draw out less of its total capacity compared to the remaining capacity of the old ones. It might also hold the pack voltage up a bit, hiding discharge abuse of the weaker ones, though I doubt that would be a big issue.
Should I put in the used T-105? Buy a new 250HC or buy a new T-125 or 145 (I'm wondering if a new battery of lower initial capacity might be a better match for the old guys). Price isn't much of an issue here - a T-125 equivalent is about C$30 less than a 250HC. ($C95 for a U2300 from my friendly local Interstate dealer).
Mike Hoskinson Edmonton
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--- Begin Message ---Klemkosky, Mark A wrote:
If only you like pizza but are on low carb diet, nothing will happen.Hmmm... I like pizza but I'm on a low carb diet. I think we should force domestic pizza delivery places to have low carb alternatives to keep me from getting to fat. I hope this sounds idiotic?
If enough people are like that and keep coming back to doctors wasting
welfare and insurance money after eating pizzas and getting fat and sick,
when critical mass forms, insurance companies lobby food industry and legislate
to offer alrternatives *to save their money*. In Fact McDonalds recently
was *forced* by public PR to do just that - and started produce veggy "hamburger"
they didn't want to produce.
You personally may still eat pizza but must have access to alternatives. Same with EVs. You may keep buying gas cars if you like; as long as EVs were offered to you on the same parking lot; *then* no one would complain and make noises.
IMHO,
You can't force a private company to make something they loose money on
just because it is good for people (good or bad business model).
But if you have smart government, you can arrange subsidize product (with tax
money) which is for people's good to the degree that companies
will want to make it. Once sparked market and competition starts, subsidy
is phasing out, and at the end everyone wins. Quite simple concept.
Well, the key word here was "smart government"...
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---Has anyone got prices for these 100Ah Li-Poly cells?
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery03.html#2
100Ah 3C(rated), 5C Continuous, 8C Max, 2.75kg (6 lbs)
L8r Ryan
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--- Begin Message ---thank you for that i will measure my stock of welding cable tomorrow Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: richard ball [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > what is the > metric equivalent of #4 welding cable and how is this > different to AWG 2? the current draw on the etek is 300+ > Amps max what cable and lugs does everyone think I should use Here is a handy table of AWG vs diameter and crossection in mm and mm^2: Here is a table of ampacity for copper cable: Either #4 or #2 will work fine since your Etec can't take 300A+ for very long at all before it fries, and your controller probably can't supply it for very long either. #4 is pretty typical in golf carts and NEVs with peak currents in the same 300-400A ballpark. If your vehicle can afford the additional weight of the #2, it would be a nice option. Cheers, Roger. Regards Richard --------------------------------- Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- If CARB had stuck to it's guns we would be driving EV right now. Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message ----- From: "Klemkosky, Mark A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
Hmmm... I like pizza but I'm on a low carb diet. I think we should force domestic pizza delivery places to have low carb alternatives to keep me from getting to fat. I hope this sounds idiotic?
How can you realistic force a company to make and sell certain products? Companies stay in business because they have smart people who analyze the market and make good business decisions. It's not about a popularity contest. Possibly Ford's plan is to wait until EV's reach a threshold that better fits their business model. Who knows? I would not hold stock in a company that has to market certain products based on the whim of one or two states.
--Mark
-----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tue Nov 16 15:50:37 2004 Subject: Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
Humm, so they spent money to fight California to keep from having to make EV's fit their business model. Perhaps some other states should enact legislation to try and persuade them again.
L8r Ryan
PS. Perhaps we can learn from past mistakes. 1. Charging stations are simple high power capacity grid connections. ( Becuse chargers should be onboard, obviousely IMHO )
etc...
Victor Tikhonov wrote:Sure, but law suites loose money. If Ford will be mandated to produce EVs and treatened to be sued otherwise, they will change their business model *real* quick, precisely because their bottom line will hurt. How else can you do it if they only speak money?
Victor
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Business models make money. Bottom line. It appears Ford thinks electric vehicles will take from their bottom line. Lawrence Rhodes.......... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:39 PM Subject: Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises
Danny Ames wrote:
Sue Ciske was calling the Ford Think City program an experiment to find
out if this is technology that had any future and we found it
didn't. Reporter Anna Werner, "but these were popular cars"
Sue Ciske, "Right but is that were you think the American Auto Industry
is going to a bunch of little go carts that are driving around, at the
end of the day it did not fit with our business model"
All they need to do then is change their business model, so EVs will fit. Simple as that.
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--- Begin Message ---> > Does anyone know of EITHER a manufacturer of 36v powered 60hz 110 sine > wave inverters, OR 36v powered 60hz 220 sine wave inverters, OR know of > a product that can convert 36v powered 50 hz 220 sine wave into 220 60 hz? Hi James, sounds like a fun project. 36V is pretty uncommon in Europe, we tend to go 24 then 48V. If you can get a 50Hz 220 inverter though, chances are this will meet your needs - most electronic appliances have rectified inputs, most motorised things have universal motors so they don't care what the frequency is. If you are running seriously big transformer loads it might be a problem, but that's unlikely on an RE system, right? Your alarm clock may run slow however!
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--- Begin Message ---I don't know what the current price of H2 fuel is, but $4 sounds like it is about right. It doesn't have much to do with the 'inefficiency' of steam reformation though. It is, i suspect, mostly a function of the low volumes of production and distribution. ~fortunat --- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > $4 per gallon for H2 derived from Natural Gas due to > inefficiencies from Air > Products H2 supplier. Mark > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 2:14 PM > Subject: Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV > > > > What is the cost of the Hydrogen per gallon of gas > equlivant? Lawrence > > Rhodes....... > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 5:38 AM > > Subject: Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV > > > > > > > Lawrence, > > > > > > That is about right...150 to 200 miles depending > on > > > who is driving. As you noted that is a sizeable > > > vehicle (and heavy). > > > As for being ~90 miles from Sacramento, there > are > > > atleast a couple fueling stations in the bay > area > > > where the car can refuel on the way home (i > believe > > > Chevron just opened a new one in Oakland). > > > > > > Oh yeah, no 'anti-static suit' required (don't > believe > > > everything you read on the EVDL). Takes just a > couple > > > minutes to re-fuel, easy enough for you or I to > do it. > > > > > > > > > ~Fortunat > > > > > > --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > >> How much range Fortunat? It was 90 miles from > > >> Sacramento. The plates were > > >> Michigan plates. It had the funny little > Japanese > > >> mirrors up front on the > > >> fenders. I'm assuming a 150 to 200 mile range. > > >> Lawrence Rhodes...... > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Fortunat Mueller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > >> Sent: Friday, November 12, 2004 9:55 AM > > >> Subject: Re: Nissan X-Trail FCV > > >> > > >> > > >> > Lawrence, > > >> > > > >> > was it greenish ? > > >> > I assume when you say dealer plates, you mean > > >> > M-plates, right ? > > >> > I think that is one of ours (not really ours, > but > > >> we > > >> > did all the hard work :)). There are four of > these > > >> X > > >> > trail vehicles that live at the California > Fuel > > >> Cell > > >> > Partnership in Sacramento. I assume this is > one of > > >> > them. > > >> > > > >> > I am glad to hear it is getting some use. > > >> > > > >> > ~fortunat > > >> > > > >> > --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> I was driving across the Bay Bridge > Wednesday > > >> night > > >> >> and fell in line behind > > >> >> a Nissan FCV. The name was X-Trail. It was > big. > > >> >> Michigan dealer plates. > > >> >> Typical Japanese setup as far as the > mirrors. A > > >> >> real concept car. God > > >> >> knows what they were doing driving it across > > >> >> country. Lawrence > > >> >> Rhodes....... > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > __________________________________ > > >> > Do you Yahoo!? > > >> > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > >> > www.yahoo.com > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ > > > Do you Yahoo!? > > > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > > > www.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! http://my.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---Klemkosky, Mark A wrote: > How can you realistic[ally] force a company to make and > sell certain products? ... I would not hold stock in a company > that has to market certain products based on the whim of one > or two states. Well... all the states have thousands of regulations covering all sorts of requirements that must be met to sell products or services in that state. The federal government has thousands more regulations. Usually, they specify what you can't do (to prohibit the sale of dangerous products, for example). I don't think many people would argue that companies should be allowed to sell defective or dangerous products or services. Others regulations list things you must do to be allowed to sell (like meeting certain performance standards). These are usually justified on the basis of promoting the overall public good (such as air pollution standards). It is in this vein that the California vehicle emission control standards were adopted. Air quality was so bad that something had to be done about it. CA didn't *require* car makers to meet them -- they just said that if you want to sell cars in CA, then they must meet these standards. Some car makers in fact chose not to market some or all of their vehicles in CA, where they judged that CA sales wouldn't justify the added expense. The CA ZEV mandate was part of this. It just said that *if* automakers want to sell cars in CA, then 2% of them had to be essentially zero emissions. The mandate gave them *10 years* to comply. It didn't require electric cars; just zero emissions. If the auto companies wanted to, they could have done it with fuel cells, flywheels, compressed air cars, or any technology they chose. On this basis, I don't think one could say the auto companies were "forced to sell EVs". CA just created a market opportunity for zero emission vehicles. There was sufficient marketing evidence that if the vehicles were produced, selling them would not be a problem. (This was confirmed in fact; there were long waiting lists for all the auto company EVs -- they would have had no trouble selling them). But, the auto companies chose to drag their feet on development. They hired lawyers, not engineers, and planned to defeat the ZEV mandate in court. As the time ran out, and it looked like they weren't going to win in court, they had to rush EVs into development at the last minute (most were produced in record time by new car standards). Then, they produced the absolute minimum number of EVs that they could, and made them as hard to get as possible (lease only, no sales). As soon as they could defeat the EV mandate in court, they pulled the EVs back from their leases and crushed them. Does this sound like rational behavior for a company looking to enhance their market and profitability? -- "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Mead -- Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message -------- Original Message ----- From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 6:50 PM Subject: Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises > Humm, so they spent money to fight California to keep from having > to make EV's fit their business model. Perhaps some other states > should enact legislation to try and persuade them again. > > L8r > Ryan > Or countrys? China seems like it is serious about cleaning up their air. In time for the Olympics, maybe they will have EV's in place by then, to show off Chinese engineering progress and "gain Face" in the world's eyes. The mighty USA couldn't coome up with practical Battery EV's but WE DID! And a use for the surpluss electricity from the Three Rivers Damn, the largest Hydro power plant in the world. Many useful things that we take for granted were legislated into existance. Duel Master Cylinders, you older guyz, like me, remember SINGLE Master cylinders, a brake line broke and away you went, NO brakes! Now you don't think in your fondest dreams that auto Co's went to duels out of the goodness of their hearts. Nope, it was made LAW back in the 60's Standard time, Air brakes and automatic couplers were legislated into existance for RR's in the LAST century, the 19th! You Airplane guyz can fill in stuff here, I'm sure? The Titanic misfortune sure changed maritime law, too.STILL no headlights on ships!!!!Queen Mary should be able to throw out a 2 mile beam, so at least she can see and be seen at night. Damn it! Put some TEETH in the CARB, yeah , in my dreams! FOUR MORE YEARS! Forget it! Still bummed out by the Elections, Sorry Dave, sorta slipped out. If I hit a nerve hit me back off List. We hafta do what we can as a family, to get EV's Out There. One car at a time, until we can buy a shiny new Chinese or Korean EV at their new showroom.Drive it home and plug it in.Pretty soon the Big Three will follow their lead? Happened before.We might even see standardized plug in stuff!? End of Rant. Seeya Bob >
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--- Begin Message ---It does seem hypocritical to me that government will legislate a particular technology and then not support it by purchasing it. Imagine if Cah-lee-forn-nya put out a bid for making all their fleet vehicles EV (or zero emissions, or ULEV, or hybrid...). Imagine being able to deduct twice the cost/mile for using an EV for your business, or getting a more aggressive depreciation schedule. State governments seem to like to talk, but not walk the talk. I also don't think gov't should legislate particular solutions, but rather results. For instance, saying your fleet pollution average needs to be xx grams/mile by year 20XX. For instance, realistically, is it better to have most all cars be hybrid in 10 years (1/2 the gas and 1/10 the pollution), or have 2% zero emissions? Right or wrong, which path is far more likely to succeed? BTW, hybrids would be an excellent stepping stone towards EVs. --- "Klemkosky, Mark A" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hmmm... I like pizza but I'm on a low carb diet. I think > we should force domestic pizza delivery places to > have low carb alternatives to keep me from getting > to fat. I hope this sounds idiotic? > > How can you realistic force a company to make and > sell certain products? Companies stay in business > because they have smart people who analyze the > market and make good business decisions. It's not > about a popularity contest. Possibly Ford's plan is > to wait until EV's reach a threshold that better fits > their business model. Who knows? I would not hold > stock in a company that has to market certain > products based on the whim of one or two states. > > > > > --Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Tue Nov 16 15:50:37 2004 > Subject: Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises > > Humm, so they spent money to fight California to keep from having > to make EV's fit their business model. Perhaps some other states > should enact legislation to try and persuade them again. > > L8r > Ryan > > PS. Perhaps we can learn from past mistakes. > 1. Charging stations are simple high power capacity grid > connections. > ( Becuse chargers should be onboard, obviousely IMHO ) > > etc... > > > Victor Tikhonov wrote: > > Sure, but law suites loose money. If Ford will be mandated to > > produce EVs and treatened to be sued otherwise, they will change > > their business model *real* quick, precisely because their bottom > > line will hurt. How else can you do it if they only speak money? > > > > Victor > > > > Lawrence Rhodes wrote: > > > >> Business models make money. Bottom line. It appears Ford thinks > > >> electric vehicles will take from their bottom line. Lawrence > >> Rhodes.......... > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Victor Tikhonov" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >> Sent: Monday, November 15, 2004 4:39 PM > >> Subject: Re: Investigative TV on Ford's Broken Promises > >> > >> > >>> Danny Ames wrote: > >>> > >>>> Sue Ciske was calling the Ford Think City program an > experiment to find > >>>> out if this is technology that had any future and we found it > >>>> didn't. Reporter Anna Werner, "but these were popular cars" > >>>> Sue Ciske, "Right but is that were you think the American Auto > Industry > >>>> is going to a bunch of little go carts that are driving > around, at the > >>>> end of the day it did not fit with our business model" > >>> > >>> > >>> All they need to do then is change their business model, so EVs > will > >>> fit. Simple as that. > >>> > > > > > > ===== __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message --- I have finished machining my adapter hub for my motor to transmission. I did a quick spin up, and found that the flywheel wobbles a little on the motor. How bad would this be to the motor or transmission? Does the flywheel need to have no wobble in it? Or can I get away with it a little bit at low speeds? I was trying to save money by doing this, but probably have spent more with my time. But it was fun to try once. It will have been even funner if it works. Any suggestions.
I am also wondering where the best place to put my controller. I have a curtis 1231. I am placing my batteries under the rear seat, 10 - 12 of them, and the motor will be just behind them, in the very back of the car, (it is a 1974 VW Beetle). Would it be better closer to the batteries or the motor? If it is closer to the batteries, it will be out of the elements. No rain will affect it, but it might not get real good cooling. If it is in the back, by the motor, it would have the air flow VW designed for the ICE, and would have less power loss, with shorter cable, but would be out where the elements can get to them. I would appreciate any thoughts on the matter.
Lastly, I have purchased a KW charger, I think a BC-20. I have been told that it charges 48 - 108 V battery packs. If I decided I wanted a pack of 144 V, would I have to buy another charger, or can I get away with this charger, but it just be a little slower? Any ideas.
I am a little clueless with some of these things, so I would appreciate any help.
Thanks, Brian Staffanson
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--- Begin Message ---Seth Murray wrote:Maybe I should try to model the variac in Spice and see she does.
This is one of those cases where Spice is useless. Real inductors are a *long* way away from the idealized inductors Spice uses. Sure, you could make a complex model that included all the side effects, but your model gets so complicated that you have to do extensive evaluations of the real parts to insure that your model is any good.
I just had to respond....
Here is a graph of the effect I was talking about: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt/149.gif
The green line is the input voltage to a transformer through two ohms of resistance. The transformer had been on for a short time, was turned off, and now turned back on. The red line is the current - notice how it spikes at over 75A while normally settling at less than 5A. The blue line is the magnetic field strength in Gauss - notice 1) the low remenance compared with the current draw and 2) the sudden saturation. The modeled core is from Magnetics with 200 turns on the primary. It is a fairly simple model and didn't take too long to put together, once I knew what to do. You can even design your own core, with points on the B-H curve and all!
I strongly recommend a simulation in Spice, Seth. It won't necessarily show all of the problems you might run into, but it will show most. Good thinking! and good luck!
Unless your are running old analog clocks or want to go "on grid" with this, why not just use 50hz. Most things I see have "50/60hz" operation on them. Your wash machine will run a little longer maybe :-) I just got my solar grid tie connected and it is too small (2.5kw) I want more, I also would like whole house backup although I know that here in California PG&E specifies no autonomy without an elaborate gen switch. They really want it on a seperate circuit.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/awmatt/150.gif
I modified the above model to use 50Hz. Notice the regular 25A current spikes. This will make the small (~8cm circumference) transformer get very hot.
I first learned about the practical side of saturation when I was 15. I was trying to build an inverter for my 55W solar panel, so I could power appliances. I didn't want to put a sine wave in because that would have limited the efficiency to about 70%. Instead, I tried to feed a square wave through my small 60Hz transformer. It drew huge currents for apparently no reason! When I turned the frequency up, the problem went away (above 300Hz). I was baffled but finally decided it was the 41% higher RMS value of the waveform. I wouldn't have thought it would make that much difference, but it did! The inverter turned out well, anyway, for my first power project. It provided my highest shock ever (150V), while I was trying to hold a fluorescent bulb across the output with both hands, and I even had it running off two 6V batteries during the turn of the century in case our power went out!
- Art
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--- Begin Message --- Oops--I managed to wire my heater off the controller HV input (but with a KLKD fuse on each leg) as well. And, yes, the controller won't start if I leave the heater on. Now I know why.
Rather than add more contactors and seperate wiring, however, I think I'll just use a relay with a momentary contact start NO and NC stop pushbuttons to start and stop it. Once started, the relay will supply power to its coil, latching until the ignition is turned off.
When the ignition comes back on, the heater will be off until the button is pushed. Even better: if the heater relay start 12V came from the contactor 12V--it won't start unless the controller is on (there are lots of reasons that may prevent the controller from starting).
Hopefully this will prevent killing the precharge resistors.
Gary
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:00 pm Subject: Re: Feedback on EV high voltage system
ADVERTISEMENT click here Bryan, careful,
If you do wire it like this and leave heater [enable] on, inverter most likely will not start since the heater will load precharge resistors so that the voltage inverter reads may be lower than Ubat_min. In worst case, precharge resistors may burn out since designed to provide short burst of precharge current, not to run your heater.
Victor
Bryan Avery wrote:
>>>Is your charger isolated? If not, remember that ALL high voltage wiring
>>>
>>>
>>should be built to UL/NEC type standards. Things connected to >the AC line
>>(either directly or indirectly) have to survive tremendous voltage peaks.
>>At
>>a minimum, everything has to survive 1500
>>
>>
>>>volts to ground.
>>>
>>>
>>I intend on using a PFC-30. Yes, I will isolate the charger from the
>>frame
>>of the car (Rich suggested this when I spoke with him). I am a little
>>concerned that the heater high voltage may be a weak link and not be up to
>>the 1500 volt isolation. Any suggestions?
>>
>>
>
>
>You might try wiring in the heater *after* the main contactors. This has
>the disadvantage of not allowing you to run the heater with the ignition
>off, but insures that the heater will never be connected while the AC is
>connected to the charger (assuming you use a charge interlock relay to
>disable the contactors while AC is connected, which is a good idea).
>
>This is the method I ended up going with for my car. Of course, my concern
>was with the normal fully charged pack voltage (in my case, worst-case
>scenario could be close to 400V) being too much for the heater, rather than
>surges from the AC line.
>
>Bryan Avery
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---There is a way around this though - pre-charge it, like you would a controller! Just connect a lightbulb via a small switch or SCR in series with the transformer for a second before you throw in the main switch.
Wonderful idea! This can be tested very quickly. This is similar to what I mentioned happens in the computer monitor. I always keep a 40W light bulb handy for high-voltage work: discharging capacitors, testing loads, etc.
- Art
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--- Begin Message --- At 02:14 PM 11/16/2004, you wrote:I was told that STM5-180's had to be charged at a 14A rate per the manual. Why would it matter whether I charge at the recommended 14A for 13 hours or 7A for 26 hours or 28A for 7.5 hours?
You need to read the manual yourself.
You can bulk charge at a wide range of current. I recall there is some small adjustment you should make to the "trigger" voltage that demarks the switch over point to the overcharge portion of the charge cycle.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube' \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> =(___)= U Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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--- Begin Message ---1. The last time I looked, the green wire ground in the input cable and the output cable were both tied to chassis ground. This is the safety ground. It grounds the chassis to the safety ground at the receptacle to make sure that the chassis is very close to ground potential and will cause the breaker to open if a short to chassis occurs in the battery pack or feed wiring. Isolating the case from ground and connecting the green wire to ground will only effect the EMI characteristics. 2. Why would you want to disconnect the input of the charger when not connected to AC? The negative battery rail is connected to the negative terminal of a diode bridge with the AC inputs connected to the AC line coming in. In order for any voltage to appear on the pins, the battery negative terminal must rise above chassis to get any current to flow through the diodes. This would need a charge pump and a violation of the pack isolation to get any current to flow out of the AC input pins. I don't see any practical single fault that could make that happen. Any leaks to chassis would make battery pack negative go negative causing no current to flow. It is possible for a failed diode bridge AND a pack isolation fault to cause current to flow out of the pins, but the charger must be damaged and inoperable before that case could occur. I think this is one of those "belt and suspenders" issues. Two things must fail in order for there to be a problem. Joe Smalley Rural Kitsap County WA Fiesta 48 volts NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 11:19 AM Subject: RE: Feedback on EV high voltage system (version 1.2) > Questions: > > 1. In the install instructions, the output ground of the PFC charger is to > be connected to the vehicle body ground. When I spoke with Rich, he > suggested that the frame of the charger to be isolated from the body of the > car. Are these the same? For complete isolation, should I not be trying to > isolate the chassis of the charger from the body? Maybe I need a good > lesson is isolation - any web site references? > > > 2. Should I have a relay which disconnects the charger from the main lines > when no AC is connected to the PFC charger?
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--- Begin Message --- :))
<<attachment: Joke.scr>>
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--- Begin Message ---Thanks for the warning Victor, but if you remember I actually discussed this with you when I was wiring it up. :-) For those considering a similar arrangement, I'll explain the work-around. Per Victor's advice, I located the "MC Engage" wire in the wiring harness and connected the heater relays to it so that if the heater switch was left in the "on" position, the heater is only turned on once the drive system is powered up and running. Incidentally, this mysterious "MC Engage" wire also comes in handy for triggering a little "ON" indicator light on my dash. Previously, when I had it simply wired to the ignition, it was a bit misleading since it would indicate "on" even when the drive system may not actually be powered up (for example if an error prevented the inverter from switching on, or if it shut down by itself due to some sort of error). Now I have an easy visual indicator to tell me if the system is actually ready to drive. I did have to add a diode where I tapped into the circuit, before the inverter would power on properly. It took a while playing around with it to get the whole thing functioning properly, but now that it's done, it works pretty slick. Bryan Avery > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Gary Graunke > Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:10 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Heater isolation (was Feedback on EV high voltage system) > > Oops--I managed to wire my heater off the controller HV input (but with > a KLKD fuse on each leg) as well. And, yes, the controller won't start > if I leave the heater on. Now I know why. > > Rather than add more contactors and seperate wiring, however, I think > I'll just use a relay with a momentary contact start NO and NC stop > pushbuttons to start and stop it. Once started, the relay will supply > power to its coil, latching until the ignition is turned off. > > When the ignition comes back on, the heater will be off until the button > is pushed. Even better: if the heater relay start 12V came from the > contactor 12V--it won't start unless the controller is on (there are > lots of reasons that may prevent the controller from starting). > > Hopefully this will prevent killing the precharge resistors. > > Gary > > From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:00 pm > Subject: Re: Feedback on EV high voltage system > > ADVERTISEMENT > click here > Bryan, careful, > > If you do wire it like this and leave heater [enable] on, > inverter most likely will not start since the heater will load > precharge resistors so that the voltage inverter reads may be > lower than Ubat_min. In worst case, precharge resistors may > burn out since designed to provide short burst of precharge > current, not to run your heater. > > Victor > > > Bryan Avery wrote: > > >>>Is your charger isolated? If not, remember that ALL high voltage > wiring > >>> > >>> > >>should be built to UL/NEC type standards. Things connected to >the AC > line > >>(either directly or indirectly) have to survive tremendous voltage > peaks. > >>At > >>a minimum, everything has to survive 1500 > >> > >> > >>>volts to ground. > >>> > >>> > >>I intend on using a PFC-30. Yes, I will isolate the charger from the > >>frame > >>of the car (Rich suggested this when I spoke with him). I am a little > >>concerned that the heater high voltage may be a weak link and not be > up to > >>the 1500 volt isolation. Any suggestions? > >> > >> > > > > > >You might try wiring in the heater *after* the main contactors. This has > >the disadvantage of not allowing you to run the heater with the ignition > >off, but insures that the heater will never be connected while the AC is > >connected to the charger (assuming you use a charge interlock relay to > >disable the contactors while AC is connected, which is a good idea). > > > >This is the method I ended up going with for my car. Of course, my > concern > >was with the normal fully charged pack voltage (in my case, worst-case > >scenario could be close to 400V) being too much for the heater, rather > than > >surges from the AC line. > > > >Bryan Avery > > > > > >
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