EV Digest 3926
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Modular Charger
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Controller Questions/Charger Questions
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Complicated NiCad charging?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Re; Line stabilizer, transformers eff questions
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) REV! Smoke shoe images - first two images
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) test
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: REV! Smoke shoe images - first two images
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Controller Questions/Charger Questions
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: But what about the Ford Th!nk re-birth
by "Schacherl Jens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Controller Questions/Charger Questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Controller Questions/Charger Questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Modular Charger
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Modular Charger
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: REV! Smoke shoe images - first two images
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Alignment, vibration, U-joints, etc.
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Controller Questions/Charger Questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) High current draw from floodies, was RE: Motor Amps, Battery Amps
?
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Detecting Hot Connections via Voltage
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Woodburn 2004 Highlights Video
by RossO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: But what about the Ford Th!nk re-birth
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
From: Mike Chancey
> >Who is using modular chargers (one charger per battery) and how well have
> >they worked out?
Damon Henry wrote:
> I think this is the best of both worlds and I'm very surprised that more
> people haven't already implemented it.
Damon, you're probably surprised, because you weren't around in the late 90's
when many of
us tried modular chargers with disastrous results.
I was one of the early pioneers who tried the modular charger thing. They
'seem' like a
good idea, but 'can' be a horrible disaster. The biggest negative, is the
threat of one of
them failing, taking a vacation from the rest and leaving one battery out of
the entire
string un-charged. You get in your EV unaware of this, then drive as it feels
funky, lacks
power and range, then poof...there goes a battery, blown up due to severely
reversed cells
under heavy loading! This scenario is not possible with the more conventional
single
series string higher output charger. If it goes down at any point in a
recharge, the
entire pack is simply left at whatever state it was in before the charger
failure...you
might have less range, but there will likely be no damaged batteries.
For the modular charger thing to work, each charger must be very reliable, and,
that
reliability reliance factor is multiplied times 13, 15, 20, or whatever number
of
batteries you have making up your EV's series string pack.
On the positive side, John Bryan has had very good luck with his 16 individual
Zap bicycle
chargers on his 192V pack of 16 Optimas, so the modular charger thing can work
out well.
With each charger having it's own final voltage cut-off point, individual
battery regs are
not needed. Another plus, is that each charger would be an isolated type, as
they are
usually transformer based designs, so this does add a degree of extra shock
hazard safety
that the Manzanita Micro products don't offer.
JB would be the first to agree with me though, that his 16 Zap chargers do not
rapidly
bring his EV back to a full charge with their less than 10 amp charge rate, so
this is a
big downside that makes the modular charger idea not so attractive.
To keep it affordable, most modular users utilize chargers that are modest in
output
power, such as 5-10 amps per charger. Though these chargers are a three step
type, they
aren't the aggressive version where they first charge at 'constant current' for
the bulk
of the charge, switch-over to constant voltage, then switch off at fully
charged status.
Instead, this less aggressive three step charger lacks the ability to charge at
constant
current in the all-important first bulk charge phase. It�s more like a typical
fixed
voltage 60 hz transformer powered car battery charger. With this type, when the
battery
being charged is depleted, it causes the charger to output max current, say
this is 10
amps. As the battery's voltage rises, the fixed rate charger's output current
begins to
ramp down and down. The effect, is that the 10 amp rated charger really only
outputs 10
amps initially, but ramps down as battery volts rise....10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3...and
so it goes
for hours and hours. Over a 4 hour period, this 10 amp charger may only average
5-6 amps.
When the battery finally gets to the switch-over point where constant voltage
is selected,
then these little charges do a great job of keeping the battery at a preset
level, usually
around 14.7V or so for a 12V battery.
A modular charging system based on these affordable little chargers then, takes
a very
long time to recharge your hungry EV when compared to using a beefy PFC20,
PFC30, or the
mighty PFC50 type chargers. An example...I use my hotrodded PFC20 (cranks out
30 amps) in
Blue Meanie, with its light weight pack of just 13 Optimas. Because it's bulk
charge phase
is a constant current type, even as the pack voltage rises, it can keep
slamming out its
near 30 amps of juice. All of the Manzanita Micro PFC chargers are a constant
current
type, and those who have these wonderful chargers already know how quickly a
charger like
this can bring up a tired pack with its constant current mode. With a useable
25-30 ahrs
of range from the pack, I can fully recharge it in an hour or less! If I used
13, 10 amp
non-constant current type modular chargers, this same charging situation could
take as
long as 4 hours! As to using battery regs, I've learned that with the PFC type
charger and
it's adjustable time length for the constant voltage phase, quite frankly, I
haven't
needed any regs whatsoever and my sealed batteries have lasted a very long time
while
staying very well equalized with each other.
To match up to the fast charge capability of a PFC30 using a modular system,
you'd
probably have to shell out $100 per charger to get a genuine 30 amp constant
current 3
step type 12V charger (1st stage bulk constant current, 2nd stage finish at
constant
voltage, and 3rd stage cut-off). Even at this price, it's doubtful that this
charger would
be power factor corrected and thus, would not be as super efficient as the
Manzanita Micro
PFC series chargers are. Another big downside, is that these chargers would
more than
likely, be a 120 vac type and each individually, would not be able to work off
of 240 vac.
If you had a 156V EV, 13 of these 30 amp output power not-so-efficient chargers
would draw
about 4 amps each from the 120 vac line...that's 52 amps! It's obvious, that
this setup
would not be able to opportunity charge from a common 120 vac outlet, as can
any PFC
series chargers by simply turning down the handy 'output current knob' and
using a 120 vac
plug adapter. This then, is yet another disadvantage. To make it work, you
would have to
wire them in a split 120 vac - 120 vac circuit off of a 240 vac feed from a 50
amp, 240
vac supply, and even at that, you'd better keep your fingers crossed hoping not
to pop a
breaker each time you plugged your EV in. If your EV was at 192V - 240V, you
could forget
about using this system (if wanting to match a PFC's 30 amp capability), as
with an AC
input current of anywhere from 64 amps - 80 amps, you're out of luck even with
a stout 50
amp 240 vac outlet!
Thirteen of the $100 chargers would run you $1300, they would take up lots of
precious EV
real-estate, they would require lots of AC input wires, and they would still
keep you
hoping that one or two of them would never fail unnoticed. If your EV's voltage
is higher
than 156V, say 240V, the cost for 20 of these would be $2000. For similar money
out of
pocket, I'll stay with the super high efficiency, high powered Manzanita Micro
products,
and will never have to worry about one or more batteries being left un-charged,
as can
often be the case using discrete modular chargers.
I do think that with today�s better designs, modular chargers could still work.
You could
base a system around a 30 amp capability, and, could use power factor corrected
type
chargers. The design could include a common buss connection for a master
unit�s control
over current, constant voltage selection point, and cut-off timer adjustment.
Such a
system could then be competitive in charging performance to a Manzanita Micro
PFC series
chargers, but the cost thing would surely be way out of line....and then,
there�s still
that nagging worry, did all the chargers really get all the batteries fully
charged?
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comuta-car motors are too feeble to push very much. In particular, the
brush pigtails are puny and burn out under heavy current. Fuse them for
protection, and then your fuses burn out when you're late for work. Use a
lower current limit on the controller, and then you can't (literally CAN'T)
start on hills any more.
If you have the 5.17 "speed axle" it will overstress the motor if you do
much hill climbing. If I'm not mistaken, CVI shipped cars with the 5.17
axle only to flat regions of the country. Of course, they've been relocated
since then. If you have one of the hilly-region cars with a 6.38 axle,
you're in better shape. This one you can push up to 60 volts or so and get
better top speed.
Even if you can get it to go 50 or more, though, the C-car needs extensive
suspension and braking modifications to be safe. It's marginal even at the
stock top speed of 38 mph. Just wait 'til you trade ends sometime with
moderate braking on a damp highway. What a ride!
I went through this same speed problem with my C-car. After owning it a
couple of years, I grew tired of having to plot out routes round Robin
Hood's barn to avoid 50+ mph roads. (Like most midwestern cities, mine is a
challenge to navigate without using expressways.) After exploring various
upgrade possibilities, and considering the cost of them and my own
mechanical skills, I decided the best course was to replace the C-car with a
conversion. That way, instead of trailer brakes and golf car suspension, I
was riding on a well-designed car suspension, wheels, tires, and brakes.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this
to all thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I
smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I read his post, I assumed that there would be a timer on the finish
charge.
If that timer was controlled by the length of time it took for the bulk
stage to complete, then it should work very well.
One option would be to put a clock on the bulk charger to stop at a fixed
voltage. It could accumulate the bulk time for several bulk charges that
never finished and display the time. The user could then set the finish
charge time based on the accumulated minutes. When the finish timer
completes the finish charge, the bulk timer would be reset.
To implement this system, the bulk charger needs a clock and a voltage sense
to shut them both off. The finish charger needs a charge turn off timer and
a way of resetting the bulk clock. It is rather simple, yet programmable by
the user.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 9:12 AM
Subject: Re: Complicated NiCad charging?
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > With what you have said Lee it seems I can bulk charge with the
> > Lester & finish charge with three small variacs one on each string.
> > Should give very good control and be easy to wire.
>
> Well, it is easy to control. But it is an entirely manual system. You
> will have to watch it every time, and manually adjust the voltage and
> turn it off when done. One mistake, and you wreck an expensive set of
> batteries.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim and All,
--- Jim Waite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Jerry,
>
> My guess is it's an SCR (or triac)-controlled
> multi-tap autotransformer (although "tap
> switchers" can be either an isolated
> primary/secondary xfmr or a non-isolated
> autotransformer).
That's kind of what I thought these line
stabilizers were but have no experience with them.
The problem with most bad boy chargers is varying
line voltage so I was thinking that these may be a
good way to control one allowing the natural current
taper as the voltage comes up to be more consistent,
thus allowing a timer to control charging without
ruining the batts.
Thanks,
jerry dycus
>
> See pg 4 for a brief explanation and discussion of
> the types and expected efficiency:
>
http://www.electro-meters.com/Assets/PDF_files/Superior/whrcat.pdf
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Rich,
Attached are the cleaned up images with and without text overlay. These
are 1600 x 1200 pixels and represent the largest, cleanest, best images
that I have of your smoke show. You should be able to print this
yourself or send it to a printer for a large format print. 8.5" x 11" in
landscape mode should look the best. Any larger than that and you really
need more resolution. I will send you one more image that shows multiple
frames.
Let me know if you have any problems receiving this.
-Ken Trough
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
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--- Begin Message ---
Darn that reply button! That was supposed to be back channel of course.
Sorry about that.
-Ken Trough
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 12:52 AM
Subject: Re: Controller Questions/Charger Questions
> Comuta-car motors are too feeble to push very much. In particular, the
> brush pigtails are puny and burn out under heavy current. Fuse them for
> protection, and then your fuses burn out when you're late for work. Use a
> lower current limit on the controller, and then you can't (literally
CAN'T)
> start on hills any more.
>
> If you have the 5.17 "speed axle" it will overstress the motor if you do
> much hill climbing. If I'm not mistaken, CVI shipped cars with the 5.17
> axle only to flat regions of the country. Of course, they've been
relocated
> since then. If you have one of the hilly-region cars with a 6.38 axle,
> you're in better shape. This one you can push up to 60 volts or so and
get
> better top speed.
>
> Even if you can get it to go 50 or more, though, the C-car needs extensive
> suspension and braking modifications to be safe. It's marginal even at
the
> stock top speed of 38 mph. Just wait 'til you trade ends sometime with
> moderate braking on a damp highway. What a ride!
>
> I went through this same speed problem with my C-car. After owning it a
> couple of years, I grew tired of having to plot out routes round Robin
> Hood's barn to avoid 50+ mph roads. (Like most midwestern cities, mine is
a
> challenge to navigate without using expressways.) After exploring various
> upgrade possibilities, and considering the cost of them and my own
> mechanical skills, I decided the best course was to replace the C-car with
a
> conversion. That way, instead of trailer brakes and golf car suspension,
I
> was riding on a well-designed car suspension, wheels, tires, and brakes.
>
> Hi David;
Read and head, Shittycar, I mean CITI car folks. Forgetabout using
these things on Real Roads! OK If ya think they are cute, I understand,
restore it, put it on a pedistal in yur family room.A used City car Sebring
Vanguard employee here! Diss- claimer dept! But as a CAR Dave hits all the
important points EVen the crudist conversion is light years ahead of a citi
or commutercar. My Rabbit's got doors /windows that work, seats, ditto,
Brakes, springs and shocks that work, too. A Rabbit's sorta lean on
amenities, but it is good basic transportation, So convert something newer!
I have a Plymouth Sundance a two door hatchback ,here in captivity, a 92 I
think, gotta look<g>! For my next doner. I welcome any comments, pro or con,
I LIKE Hatchbacks, anyhow, for easy battery access and you can carry a lot
of shit in back, brought home a new washing machine, stuffed in back, in the
Rabbit, a cash an carry sale, looked silly but saved the 50 bux delivery
fee!
BTW What the hell kinda paint did Crapsler use on those cars?? It is
flaking away, like cheap house paint!! Maybe it IS cheap house paint??I
guess ya hafta sand it all off and start again?? Seen other cars shedding
their paint in the same flaky manor! I guess they, the Car Co's hafta save a
buck SOMEwhere, paint, or whereever?Sigh!
Seeya
Bob
82 Rabbit 120 volts
78 Sentra Electric 96 volts? Not sure how many batteries yet.
Electrac E 20 undergoing restoration
Skilsaw 18 volt
Black an' Decker weedwacker ? volts .....enough.
A Bunch of "Acela Express" trainsets one-foot-to-the-foot scale. HO
trains are too small! As you age, your eyes aren't what they used to be, ya
want bigger toys!
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this
> to all thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I
> smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm afraid but there will never be any kind of "rebirth" for the Think city, as
long as Kamkorp owns the norwegian maker:
"Bernd Winkler, who took over as managing director of Think Nordic after it was
sold by Ford Motor Co last year, claims he and new owner Kamkorp
Microelectronics never saw much commercial potential in the personal car
market.
'That was not an economically viable product,' Winkler says emphatically,
[...]".
http://www.aftenposten.no/english/business/article814203.ece
Instead, they're now developing an ugly sort of minibus with NEV-restricted
speed which they hope to sell to EU communities for "public carsharing".
IMHO this is the worst business plan since the iDiOT.COMs and will lead to
bankruptcy of the company within a year or two, which will then prove again
that EVs are "not economically viable and no one wants them anyway bla bla bla".
One can speculate if this is part of a secret "blame-shifting" agreement
between Ford and Kamkorp, but I'll leave this to the conspiracy theorists.
Pictures and data of the never-going-to-be-available EVs from Think Nordic can
be viewed in this nice brochure:
http://www.emobil-info.de/think/th!nk_portfolio.pdf
(sorry can't remember from where I got it, was a link in another EV-related
forum).
Regards, Jens
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<With the stock gearing in the ComutaCar, the motor will only draw about
150 amps at 55 mph. Thus, it could go that fast downhill, but not on the
level. To get the motor to draw 200 amps from a 48v pack, you can a) use
larger diameter tires, b) change the differential ratio, c) add a
transmisison with overdrive, or c) add field weakening to the motor.>>
I'm no motor guru, so I would have wrongly assumed that, in this situation,
you'd just need more battery power. Either more volts, or the same volts but
more batteries added to the pack (wired in parallel). I figured more power at
the pack would be more horsepower at the motor. Perhaps this is somewhat
right on some level, but it is apparently wrong as far as trying to get this
chick's car to go faster in this case. Either way, I want to learn something
and
get the "correct thinking" on this.
Lee, what's the deal with what you say above? With larger diameter tires, or
a higher-geared differential, or a transmission with overdrive - this would
all tend to lower motor rpms. Is the problem that the motor is spinning at too
high an rpm, and this somehow affects how much power it can suck from the
batteries? What exactly is the relationship between motor rpm and power? If
you
had an indestructible motor, and wanted to go arbitrarily fast, am I correct
in saying that you would merely have to gear it arbitrarily high (for
arbitrarily low motor rpms), and add a large enough battery pack to it for
enough
power?
Thanks.
Sam
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--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> Comuta-car motors are too feeble to push very much... Even if you
> can get it to go 50 [mph] or more, though, the C-car needs extensive
> suspension and braking modifications to be safe. It's marginal even
> at the stock top speed of 38 mph.
I quite agree. While my ComutaVan would safely go 55 mph, just about
everything was changed so it could do so safely. The wheelbase was
extended 14". The wheels, tires, and brakes were changed. The battery
pack was increased to 72v. Better springs and shocks were added. The
motor was larger. A transmission was added.
You *can* do all this yourself; but it's a lot of work. You would have
to really love the ComutaCar to go to all this trouble.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: Modular Charger
> Hello to All,
>
> From: Mike Chancey
>
> > >Who is using modular chargers (one charger per battery) and how well
have
> > >they worked out?
>
> Damon Henry wrote:
>
The design could include a common buss connection for a master unit's
control
> over current, constant voltage selection point, and cut-off timer
adjustment. Such a
> system could then be competitive in charging performance to a Manzanita
Micro PFC series
> chargers, but the cost thing would surely be way out of line....and then,
there's still
> that nagging worry, did all the chargers really get all the batteries
fully charged?
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
Thanks John for this Generous post.
Add copy is really nice when you don't ask for it.
Also for the first time in years I do not have a exstensive back log.
Lead times are in days right now not weeks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My friend John Wayland wrote:
> Damon, you're probably surprised, because you weren't around
> in the late 90's when many of us tried modular chargers with
> disastrous results.
We were all using defective chargers, which is why the results
were so poor. These highly modified (hotrodded) versions of the otherwise
reliable Guest chargers, would put in about one Ah before shutting down.
There was no way to tell by looking at the charger or it's indicators weather
it had charged the battery or not. I don't think it's fair to call this
"trying modular chargers".
> JB would be the first to agree with me though, that his 16 Zap chargers
> do not rapidly bring his EV back to a full charge with their less than 10
> amp charge rate, so this is a big downside that makes the modular charger
> idea not so attractive.
I've posted about this before, but I'll try to make it more clear this time.
(It's obvious that John doesn't read my posts :-)
The little charging circuits I'm using are not the car's charging system, just
the
regulation portion. They are additive regs rather than dissipative. Instead of
bypassing current, they stop adding current. It's the series portion of the
charging
system that mainly determines the charge time. If anything, my individual
chargers
are too powerful, (read heavy) but it's nice having the ability to use them
alone.
Remember how we were all having problems with being able to plug in
so many of the powerful Guest chargers at once? Bill Dube' built a clever device
to cycle them on and off so that they were never all on at the same time.
This obviously lowered that high charge rate, and it still doesn't change the
fact that the chargers were defective to begin with.
I would certainly recommend a PFC charger as the series component
of any charging system, weather it's a "modular" system, dissipative, or
non-regulated. When I'm in the market for new or more powerful series
element for my charging system, that's certainly what I'll be buying.
> ....and then, there's still that nagging worry, did all the chargers really
> get
> all the batteries fully charged?
It's no worry at all, just glance at the E-meter before unplugging. If even
one battery was not being held at a high float voltage like the rest the pack,
the Emeter would show it. Checking the indicators on the chargers is another
simple way, but one that won't work when using defective chargers with
meaningless indicators that may or may not be telling the trooth. A simple
circuit could of course do this for you and not let you drive the car if a
charger
had failed.
I'm very pleased with my system. There weren't very many choices
available back when we all "tried modular charging", but I realized that the
problem was with those particular chargers and not the concept. I'm finding
that it's very beneficial to hold all the batteries at the same, elevated
(float)
voltage for a long time, which is very easy to do with a system of this type.
John
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey Ken....
The first two got here,
This was sent to the EV list, that of course deletes attachments...
Try again please Using my direct E-mail....
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I really like the first two.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 4:05 AM
Subject: REV! Smoke shoe images - first two images
> Hey Rich,
>
> Attached are the cleaned up images with and without text overlay. These
> are 1600 x 1200 pixels and represent the largest, cleanest, best images
> that I have of your smoke show. You should be able to print this
> yourself or send it to a printer for a large format print. 8.5" x 11" in
> landscape mode should look the best. Any larger than that and you really
> need more resolution. I will send you one more image that shows multiple
> frames.
>
> Let me know if you have any problems receiving this.
>
> -Ken Trough
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> * LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
>
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--- Begin Message ---
At 01:58 AM 11/21/04 -0500, you wrote:
> If you want to avoid the hassle
> and expense of tooling, and don't feel your machining and other skills are
> up to the job, buy a professionally made adaptor.
I think the problem is - many times there wouldn't be one available. I
assume they only make professionally made adapter plates for certain kinds
of cars,
not any and every car that could be converted to an EV.
Check our web site. We have patterns for more than a hundred models of
transmissions. Also, we are continually designing new ones by customer
request. There is no charge for this design work (unless you are doing
something REALLY unusual) because this is how we expand our library.
This is essentially the problem I was complaining about and was trying to get
away from in the first place - the problem of having to precisely align a
motor and either a transmission or a rear end. I theorized that U-joints
would
allow me to get away with imprecise alignment, but apparently they would
not.
I will still have to have the same angle, even if the two things I am trying
to connect do not line have to line up. How the hell would one even begin to
line up, say, a rear end and a motor that precisely anyway, especially at
distance? What do you do, mount a laser on the motor shaft and line that
laser
beam up with the rear end input? CRAZY!
Yes, you still need to preserve the proper angle as closely as
possible. This is addressed in our book, "Convert It", which it sounds
like you could use. On a front engine, rear drive car, BEFORE you take the
gas engine out (too late already?) measure up from the transmission bell
housing to a distinct mark, such as a seam, on the firewall, or make your
own indelible mark. When you reinstall the electric
motor/adaptor/transmission assembly, use a floorjack to recreate this
position for the transmission. Then design and fab your front motor mount
to suit.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> With the stock gearing in the ComutaCar, the motor will only draw
>> about 150 amps at 55 mph. Thus, it could go that fast downhill,
>> but not on the level. To get the motor to draw 200 amps from a
>> 48v pack, you can a) use larger diameter tires, b) change the
>> differential ratio, c) add a transmisison with overdrive, or
>> c) add field weakening to the motor.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I figured more power at the pack would be more horsepower at the
> motor.
No; it doesn't work that way. To drive at a certain speed, you need a
certain amount of power. Power is measured in horsepower (mechanical) or
watts (electrical). When you take normal motor and drive train
efficiency into account, 1hp is about 1kw.
Her ComutaCar takes about 9hp = 9kw to reach 55 mph. So, the problem is
to do whatever it push 9kw into the motor. The motor will convert this
into 9hp, pretty much irregardless of the motor's rpm.
First, we have to assume the controller can actually deliver 9kw. If it
can't, then it becomes the weak link, and the game is lost. The Curtis
1205 she mentioned may have this problem. It can deliver 275a at 48v =
13kw, but only briefly; then it gets hot and cuts back.
Next, the batteries. 9kw at 48v is 187.5a; call it 200a because the
batteries will sag under load. If these are tiny, wimpy batteries that
can't deliver 200a, then they become the weak link and prevent you from
drawing that 9kw. But, she has big 6v golf cart batteries; they can
easily supply 200a. In fact, almost any lead-acid battery with a
capacity of 20 amphours or more can deliver 200 amps. More capacity just
adds range; it won't add to the power.
Finally, the motor. This is the heart of the problem in this case. She
has a DC brushed series motor. This type of motor behaves like a
resistor Its apparent "resistance" is directly proportional to rpm. For
example:
ohms rpm mph
---- ---- ---
0.05 850 10
0.08 1725 20
0.12 2600 30
0.16 3450 40
0.20 4300 50
0.24 5200 60
This means we can estimate the power the motor uses, and thus the
horsepower it produces just by knowing the battery pack voltage, with
the equation Power = (Volts)^2 / Ohms. And, motor current is Amps =
Volts / Ohms. At 48 volts:
mph volts ohms amps power
----- ----- ---- ---- -----
10 32v 0.05 640a 20kw
20 38v 0.08 475a 18kw
30 42v 0.12 350a 15kw
40 43v 0.16 270a 12kw
50 44v 0.20 220a 10kw
60 45v 0.24 187a 8kw
I assumed the 48v batteries and wiring will sag under load, proportional
to current. This resistance causes the voltages above to be somewhat
less than 48v (and a *lot* less at >500 amps)!
Notice that at low speeds you have *lots* more power! This means you can
accellerate and climb hills. So much power, in fact, that if the
controller doesn't stop you, you'll burn up the motor from excess
current. The little 6hp motor in the ComutaCar is only good for about
150 amps for 15 minutes or so.
But as your speed goes up, the power goes down. Your top speed is
limited you run out of power.
To go faster, then, you can raise the pack voltage. This forces the
motor to draw more current, which means more power in, so more
horsepower out.
The other way is to do something to make the motor turn slower. This
reduces its resistance, so it draws more current at the same voltage.
Even though the pack voltage hasn't changed, more current means more
power, so more speed.
Third, you can use field weakening. This also has the effect of reducing
the motor's apparent resistance. Thus it draws more current at a given
rpm, and so delivers more horsepower.
> Lee, what's the deal with what you say above? With larger diameter
> tires, or a higher-geared differential, or a transmission with
> overdrive - this would all tend to lower motor rpms. Is the problem
> that the motor is spinning at too high an rpm, and this somehow
> affects how much power it can suck from the batteries? What exactly is the
> relationship between motor rpm and power?
Right! See above.
> If you had an indestructible motor, and wanted to go arbitrarily
> fast, am I correct in saying that you would merely have to gear it
> arbitrarily high (for arbitrarily low motor rpms), and add a large
> enough battery pack to it for enough power?
Yes; that's basically true for a series motor. The drag racers use
series motors, and apply drastically higher than nameplate voltages and
currents. So, the watts in are *very* high, so the horsepower out is
*very* high. These cars are geared as if they are in 3rd or 4th gear all
the time, to force motor rpm low so it will draw these huge currents.
The drawback, of course, is that the motor can only survive this for a
matter of seconds. Long enough to get down the dragstrip, though. :-)
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick,
I noticed on your website that you're using T-875 8V floodies, and since
they have more voltage sag than 6Vers I was curious if these high current
draws are only when fully charged, and if you're keeping the pack voltage
well above 1.75 volts per cell? For better cycle life, I'm trying to keep
my current at or below 200 amps with my T-145 floodies, which is hard with
a lead sled and everyone behind me trying to use up all the oil in their
lifetime!
Sucking and humping those amps according to battery chemistry,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>From: Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 13:49:19 -0600
>
<snip>
>Watching the ammeter while driving around, I notice that the higher the
>gear I'm in, the less battery amps I can pull. For example, I can get
>the ammeter to read 400 amps (peg) if I floor it in 1st gear. However,
>if I shift to 2nd gear, I can't seem to pull more than about 350 amps
>with the accelerator floored. 3rd gear starts to get bad, as I can't get
>more than about 280 amps, and 4th gear is practically unusable as I
>can't seem to pull more than about 210 amps, no matter what. And I do
>have to start out in 1st gear because I can't get going in any
>reasonable amount of time from 2nd (3rd is impossible).
<snip>
>Thanks for any insight on this.
>-Nick
>1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
>http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
Years ago Lee Hart posted about measuring the mV's from post to post to
calculate cable resistance, and I've been doing this religiously when I
disconnect and reconnect a battery or batteries. After installing a new
battery pack and with the charger running, I measure all the 2/0 cables
that have at least one battery terminal, starting from the control board
with the contactors/breaker, and record the data in my EV log book. If
there is a big change in the future, like going from 3mV to 10mv, I know
something is wrong. Since I use automotive posts, I don't need to do this
very often and it doesn't take that much time. Having been shocked through
the chest with my first pack (but not being "electrocatated" as another
lister's mom would say, and living to tell about it), I don't touch battery
terminals without gloves until I've disconnected enough interconnects to
make 48 volt (or less) segments. Some day I'll have to get me one of them
there new fangled infrared thermometers, but a mV meter works for now!
Volt meters are us,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Yes, that is how I found the bad connections in my car before I got the
>Infrared thermometer. Now all I have to do is point the PIR detector at the
>connection and read the temperature after running the car hard.
>
>The voltage detect method requires a load on the battery to read the voltage
>drop. The thermal method has its own built in memory.
>
>You could build a small circuit board with some voltage detectors that light
>an LED and an optocoupler (like the Mk 2 regulators) that would detect and
>remember a voltage drop event.
>
>These features were on the Mk 3 regulator feature list but have not been
>implemented.
>
>Joe Smalley
>Rural Kitsap County WA
>Fiesta 48 volts
>NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 10:05 AM
>Subject: Detecting Hot Connections via Voltage
>
>
>> Suppose you used the 2nd set of terminals on a battery to measure the
>> voltage of each battery. It seems you could use this hardware to also
>> measure voltage drop across each cable segment to look for failing
>> connections. Would the voltage drop be enough to be practically
>> measurable?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I spliced and cut and pasted a 6 minute highlights video from the
Woodburn event with a great soundtrack.
Take a look at the video here:
http://www.oeva.org/events/woodburn2004/
The video is available in three sizes: 5mb, 10mb and 30mb, so pick your
poison and start watching.
...Ross...
PS, There's a White Zombie burnout in there by special request...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>And where is Bruce Parmenter ?? I miss all his posts weekly, on EV
News gleaned from round the World/ and all over the Net....
--
Steven<
Well, ... I've been busy.
I'm back at work now, once again earning a paycheck (Thnak Gawd).
I had to re-do everything I had setup at work over two months ago,
and I am just now seeing daylight again. As I get more caught up,
I will have bandwidth to POST 'ALL' the newswires I have gleaned.
-Bruce
: Gobble Gobble, Happy T-day :
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
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