EV Digest 3934
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: eMeter temp sensor
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: eMeter temp sensor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: eMeter temp sensor
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Sealed PbA battery Options
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Modular Charger
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: High current draw from floodies, was RE: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: High current draw from floodies, was RE: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: eMeter temp sensor
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Death of EV author
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Death of Ev enthusiast
by "Shelton, John D AW1 \(VP-08\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: [ETList] Gordon Dower's Ridek an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) KSI Relay for Curtis 1231C controller?
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: eMeter temp sensor
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Job opening, battery management
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) looking for a used DCP DC/DC converter
by Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Contacting AVCON, web site email not working
by Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: fuel gauge and clutchless shifting
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I saw a in couple of previous posts that the emeter temp probe was an
LM35 Precision Centigrade Temperature Sesnor. From the National
Semiconductor data sheet:
The LM35 series are precision integrated-circuit temperature
sensors, whose output voltage is linearly proportional to the
Celsius (Centigrade) temperature. The LM35 thus has an
advantage over linear temperature sensors calibrated in
 Kelvin, as the user is not required to subtract a large
constant voltage from its output to obtain convenient Centigrade
scaling. The LM35 does not require any external
calibration or trimming to provide typical accuracies of Â1â4ÂC
at room temperature and Â3â4ÂC over a full â55 to +150ÂC
temperature range. Low cost is assured by trimming and
calibration at the wafer level. The LM35âs low output impedance,
linear output, and precise inherent calibration make
interfacing to readout or control circuitry especially easy. It
can be used with single power supplies, or with plus and
minus supplies. As it draws only 60 ÂA from its supply, it has
very low self-heating, less than 0.1ÂC in still air. The LM35 is
rated to operate over a â55Â to +150ÂC temperature range,
while the LM35C is rated for a â40Â to +110ÂC range (â10Â
with improved accuracy). The LM35 series is available packaged
in hermetic TO-46 transistor packages, while the
LM35C, LM35CA, and LM35D are also available in the
plastic TO-92 transistor package. The LM35D is also available
in an 8-lead surface mount small outline package and a
plastic TO-220 package.
Features
n Calibrated directly in  Celsius (Centigrade)
n Linear + 10.0 mV/ÂC scale factor
n 0.5ÂC accuracy guaranteeable (at +25ÂC)
n Rated for full â55Â to +150ÂC range
n Suitable for remote applications
n Low cost due to wafer-level trimming
n Operates from 4 to 30 volts
n Less than 60 ÂA current drain
n Low self-heating, 0.08ÂC in still air
n Nonlinearity only Â1â4ÂC typical
n Low impedance output, 0.1 W for 1 mA load
Not exactly a thermistor.
I'm planning to use the LM35, wondering whether to power Vs from the aux
battery or the emeter DC-DC, and what resistance to use for Vs.
Mike
Neon John wrote:
I don't know what an LM35 is without looking but I can say for sure that
the temperature input on an E-meter expects a 10kohm thermistor. This
just happens to be the same device used on most of the el-cheapo digital
indoor/outdoor thermometers. Conveniently, just whack off the external
probe at the thermometer and you have a ready-made sensor and lead.
John
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 12:42:33 -0700, Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Please excuse my ignorance. I'd like to include temp monitoring on my
emeter. What do I do with the V+ lead of the LM35? Is it powered from
the auxiliary battery?
Mike Hoskinson
Lee Hart wrote:
fred whitridge wrote:
Hello: any idea what the eMeter uses as a temp sensor? Is this just a
thermistor?
It's a National Semiconductor LM35. The circuit is figure 5 on their
data sheet.
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> I don't know what an LM35 is without looking but I can say for
> sure that the temperature input on an E-meter expects a 10kohm
> thermistor.
John, I worked for Cruising Equipment (which designed the E-meter). I
can say for certain that we designed it for an LM35. A 10k thermistor
might work, but would be seriously less accurate.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have an eMeter or a diagram of one, but it is likely that you need
to power it from the same power supply that powers the eMeter. If you
connect the LM35 common (-) to your Aux battery negative and also to
negative of the eMeter, for example, you have effectively joined the Aux 12V
negative (car frame ground) to your eMeter negative from its DC-DC
converter. I don't think you want to do this, if the eMeter has a separate
DC-DC converter for a reason.
The LM-35 is a 3-terminal device which has a voltage output that varies
linearly with temperature (+ 10.0 mV/ÂC scale factor)
A thermister is a 2-terminal resistor that varies resistance with
temperature change (You get a non-linear change of voltage with temperature
if used in a simple voltage divider circuit) - as you suspect, you cannot
substitute one for the other in an unchanged circuit.
We are using the LM-35 as the temperature sensor in the On-Board Computers
we make for transport trucks, working from the 5V supply, with its common
connected a bit above ground potential (from the drop in a resistor), so we
can get readings of negative C degrees.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hoskinson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: eMeter temp sensor
I saw a in couple of previous posts that the emeter temp probe was an LM35
Precision Centigrade Temperature Sesnor. From the National Semiconductor
data sheet:
The LM35 series are precision integrated-circuit temperature
sensors, whose output voltage is linearly proportional to the
Celsius (Centigrade) temperature. The LM35 thus has an
advantage over linear temperature sensors calibrated in
snipped
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking to get a fairly decent amount of range, and the
Exides don't appear as if they would provide it.
I hear Optimas have suffered a significant decrease in
quality since their production shifted overseas. Is this
true? The conversions that used the earlier Optimas had such
great range for lead acid EVs.
Compared to the Exides, Optimas give excellent range, at
least according to simulations. The Exides only have about
270 deliverable wh per battery to full discharge, which
being 41 pounds each, is only about 13 wh/kilogram at the
1/2 hr rate(about 15-16 wh/kg at the 1 hr rate), while the
Optimas seem to have far more than that.
Does Hawker Genesis still make its sealed lead acid
batteries that the racers have used? Rich Brown has been
able to get 40 miles highway from Dualin 7 with about 800
pounds of these according to his austinev.org page. I'm
guessing that's to a full discharge, and not 80%.
Gel Cel batteries have excellent capacity, but are also
lacking in power I hear, usually not able to deliver more
than 300 amps reliably.
So what are my options for a battery that will allow about
120 horsepower(or more) for an 800 pound pack for a racing
application? Are Optimas still any good to use, or is it
taking a risk to use them? I'm not looking to break any
world records, I'm looking at a conversion that will use a
9-inch ADC motor or WarP9 motor and a Zilla 1k, with at
least a 192V pack, wanting to pull a 1/4 mile time in the
mid 15s or faster. But I also want at least 30 miles range
to 80% DoD at 60 MPH, assuming a consumption of less than
200 wh/mile. AC Propulsion showed 80+ mile ranges under
these constraints was possible, using a setup that would be
within 15% more efficient than what I'm looking at using,
but they used Optimas that may now be different in quality
than they were then. Exides look very dissappointing for
range.
Any suggestions?
I'm sure Wayland can give me estimates on how the Deka
Intimidators would fare. Can't wait for Rich to get ahold of
one to give the real figures.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 10:16:17 -0600, Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> So what do you think? Anyone know a good source for a capable 12 volt 5
> amp automatic charger at a good price?
If you look at http://www.thunder-sky.com/en/battery.htm you can now
find 24 V and 48 V battery modules with single chargers.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> But you've never really explained how to determine if a battery has
> reversed cells.
A normal flooded lead-acid cell has a no-voltage of 1.95v (dead) to
2.12v (full) after it has sat idle for at least a few hours. A normal
cell also has low internal resistance; like 0.001 ohm when fully
charged, to 0.01 ohm when approaching dead.
A reversed cell will have a drastically lower voltage; often its
polarity will be REVERSED, i.e. it measures -2v instead of +2v. The
internal resistance of a cell goes up drastically as it approaches dead
(to several ohms!). When the cell reverses, the resistance goes down
again, but even when re-reversed (i.e. fully charged in the correct
direction), its internal resistance will have permanently increased to
many times higher than normal.
The consequences of a reversed cell are a) much less amphour capacity,
b) much more voltage sag under load, c) much shorter life, and d)
serious heating, gassing, and water loss problems.
You can't usually get at the individual cell voltages; all you can
measure is the total battery voltage. So, you have to guess at the
individual cell voltages from the total battery voltage. For your 8v
batteries (four 2v cells), a voltage under 6v implies that you have a
reversed cell (i.e. three cells at 2.xx volts, and one at essentially
zero volts).
> I'm under the impression that reversed cells would significantly
> reduce range and performance. I haven't noticed this. The range and
> performance have been pretty much the same since day one.
A single reversed cell isn't obvious. All the strong cells mask the
weakness. The total pack voltage is only reduced about 2v, which is too
small to notice, given the large variations in pack voltage due to
state-of-charge and load current.
Your range and top speed might not even appear to be significantly
affected with a reversed cell -- at first. The rest of the cells can
'drag along' the dead one -- for a while. But, remember "20-Mule Team
Borax"? Running a pack with a reversed cell is like driving that 20-mule
team through the desert with one dead mule dragging in its harness. The
other 19 can do it for a while, but will tire quickly. Then, one by one,
they will die early, and you'll be dragging their corpses along, too.
You'll kill the whole team this way!
> And yes, I now have a dash mounted digital volt meter, and I have
> seen the voltage sag pretty low for very short amounts of time
> during hard acceleration. 115 volts happened once, but that's
> it. I've not done this intentionally. These batteries have a lot
> of voltage sag under large current draws.
I forget; do you have 20 8v batteries, for a 160v pack? 115v on a 160v
pack is about 1.44v/cell. The lowest you should ever go is 1.75v/cell,
or 140v under load. When you pull the pack as a whole down to 115v, you
are almost certainly reversing one or more cells.
> Here's the voltages after a recent short trip:
> 8.52v - Battery #3
> 8.51v - Battery #5
> 8.50v - Battery #15
> 8.49v - Battery #6,8,9,10,12,13,14,16,17
> 8.48v - Battery #2,4,7,11,18,20
> 8.47v - Battery #1
> 8.46v - Battery #19
Those are all pretty good; but they only reflect voltages near full
charge. What you need to do to find weak cells is to drive near the
limits of your range, and measure the individual battery voltages
immediately after your drive, BEFORE you do any charging. Any weak or
reversed cells will immediately stand out as a battery that is about 2v
less than the rest.
> I also took the voltages while the Jeep was charging (near the end of
> the charge) today, they were:
> 9.58v - Battery #19
> 9.59v - Battery #1
> 9.63v - Battery #2,6,7,8
> 9.64v - Battery #4
> 9.65v - Battery #17
> 9.67v - Battery #9,16
> 9.71v - Battery #11
> 9.73v - Battery #3
> 9.75v - Battery #14
> 9.76v - Battery #10,13,18
> 9.77v - Battery #5
> 9.82v - Battery #12,20
> 9.84v - Battery #15
These don't really mean anything.
#19 and #1 are probably the batteries with the lowest amphour capacity.
But that does not mean they are bad. You will *always have some battery
with the lowest amphour capacity.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick, your post was most timely, and Lee's response
leaves me a bit distressed too. With my 18 x 8V
floodies, 1.75 VPC x72 cells is 126V. I am _certain_
I have periodic voltage sags below that, especially
when I live at the top of a rather steep hill (20 sec
load, taking it to around 100V)!!!. On the bright
side, my e-Meter rarely goes below 1/2 full (1/2 empty
(;-p), yet it looks like I've already screwed the
pack, by this analysis.
Sheesh, I detest lead, I detest not being able to
monitor individual cells, and I'm not so excited about
stressing a new pack during the winter when I already
have reduced capacity!
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nick Viera wrote:
> > But you've never really explained how to determine
> if a battery has
> > reversed cells.
>
> A normal flooded lead-acid cell has a no-voltage of
> 1.95v (dead) to
> 2.12v (full) after it has sat idle for at least a
> few hours. A normal
> cell also has low internal resistance; like 0.001
> ohm when fully
> charged, to 0.01 ohm when approaching dead.
>
> A reversed cell will have a drastically lower
> voltage; often its
> polarity will be REVERSED, i.e. it measures -2v
> instead of +2v. The
> internal resistance of a cell goes up drastically as
> it approaches dead
> (to several ohms!). When the cell reverses, the
> resistance goes down
> again, but even when re-reversed (i.e. fully charged
> in the correct
> direction), its internal resistance will have
> permanently increased to
> many times higher than normal.
>
> The consequences of a reversed cell are a) much less
> amphour capacity,
> b) much more voltage sag under load, c) much shorter
> life, and d)
> serious heating, gassing, and water loss problems.
>
> You can't usually get at the individual cell
> voltages; all you can
> measure is the total battery voltage. So, you have
> to guess at the
> individual cell voltages from the total battery
> voltage. For your 8v
> batteries (four 2v cells), a voltage under 6v
> implies that you have a
> reversed cell (i.e. three cells at 2.xx volts, and
> one at essentially
> zero volts).
>
> > I'm under the impression that reversed cells would
> significantly
> > reduce range and performance. I haven't noticed
> this. The range and
> > performance have been pretty much the same since
> day one.
>
> A single reversed cell isn't obvious. All the strong
> cells mask the
> weakness. The total pack voltage is only reduced
> about 2v, which is too
> small to notice, given the large variations in pack
> voltage due to
> state-of-charge and load current.
>
> Your range and top speed might not even appear to be
> significantly
> affected with a reversed cell -- at first. The rest
> of the cells can
> 'drag along' the dead one -- for a while. But,
> remember "20-Mule Team
> Borax"? Running a pack with a reversed cell is like
> driving that 20-mule
> team through the desert with one dead mule dragging
> in its harness. The
> other 19 can do it for a while, but will tire
> quickly. Then, one by one,
> they will die early, and you'll be dragging their
> corpses along, too.
> You'll kill the whole team this way!
>
> > And yes, I now have a dash mounted digital volt
> meter, and I have
> > seen the voltage sag pretty low for very short
> amounts of time
> > during hard acceleration. 115 volts happened once,
> but that's
> > it. I've not done this intentionally. These
> batteries have a lot
> > of voltage sag under large current draws.
>
> I forget; do you have 20 8v batteries, for a 160v
> pack? 115v on a 160v
> pack is about 1.44v/cell. The lowest you should ever
> go is 1.75v/cell,
> or 140v under load. When you pull the pack as a
> whole down to 115v, you
> are almost certainly reversing one or more cells.
>
> > Here's the voltages after a recent short trip:
> > 8.52v - Battery #3
> > 8.51v - Battery #5
> > 8.50v - Battery #15
> > 8.49v - Battery #6,8,9,10,12,13,14,16,17
> > 8.48v - Battery #2,4,7,11,18,20
> > 8.47v - Battery #1
> > 8.46v - Battery #19
>
> Those are all pretty good; but they only reflect
> voltages near full
> charge. What you need to do to find weak cells is to
> drive near the
> limits of your range, and measure the individual
> battery voltages
> immediately after your drive, BEFORE you do any
> charging. Any weak or
> reversed cells will immediately stand out as a
> battery that is about 2v
> less than the rest.
>
> > I also took the voltages while the Jeep was
> charging (near the end of
> > the charge) today, they were:
> > 9.58v - Battery #19
> > 9.59v - Battery #1
> > 9.63v - Battery #2,6,7,8
> > 9.64v - Battery #4
> > 9.65v - Battery #17
> > 9.67v - Battery #9,16
> > 9.71v - Battery #11
> > 9.73v - Battery #3
> > 9.75v - Battery #14
> > 9.76v - Battery #10,13,18
> > 9.77v - Battery #5
> > 9.82v - Battery #12,20
> > 9.84v - Battery #15
>
> These don't really mean anything.
>
> #19 and #1 are probably the batteries with the
> lowest amphour capacity.
> But that does not mean they are bad. You will
> *always have some battery
> with the lowest amphour capacity.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 28 Nov 2004 20:22:18 -0700, Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Not exactly a thermistor.
>
>I'm planning to use the LM35, wondering whether to power Vs from the aux
>battery or the emeter DC-DC, and what resistance to use for Vs.
I have an E-meter on the following:
motorhome
CitiCar
GoBig scooter
Badsey scooter
Test instrument on my bench (data logging version)
All 5 have the thermistor connected and all 5 work fine. I went to the
trouble of verifying the calibration of my test instrument with a water
bath.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I too have read "Solo", long before I ever had a 'real' EV to drive and
have since re-read it after driving my EV for several years. It does
indeed change one's perspective to understand the references to the
particular components used in his conversion, but either way it is a
good read. Both editions are out of print but generally easy to find
used (amazon, bn, eBay, etc).
I believe he made the move to electric driving, then to solar produced
electric, after students called him to task for preaching
environmentalism while still driving his gas car to work. As a professor
he had the means ($$) to cover his barn roof with grid-tied PV panels so
as to produce all the electricity his car and house used over the course
of a year. This is an example I often cite to those asking me the "but
what about the power plant and its pollution?" question. Noel Perrin
showed that renewable power can work, even in New England, even in
quantities needed for an daily EV.
Back in college days I got to meet him at one of the original Tour de
Sol races. As I recall he was on his second (or third??) EV by then
and had no plans to give it up. I may even have the cassette tape around
from the interview for the college radio station. He was very
interesting to talk to and inspirational in my formative EV days.
John Westlund wrote:
Having read Solo...
Although it is disappointing that he didn't make the trip
completely by EV, it was an enjoyable read.
He wrote (among other books)
"Solo: Life With an Electric Car" in 1992 about a cross
country trip that apparently involved little driving
>> and abundant towing.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You want 120hp from 800 lbs of battery at 120V? That's about 750A with
100% power conversion efficiency and no voltage sag. So that's two
strings of 40 lb 12v modules like you have identified, or something
else. If you are looking for "something else" then the ~3.25 lb NiCad
cells might be worth thinking about (caveat emptor: I have some for
sale, but you can get them from a couple of places). Two strings of 100
cells of 30-40Ah capacity (they tend to do better than nameplate
capcity) or a single 240+V string would get your horsepower goal unltil
you figure in efficiency and sag under load. Starter nicads don't sag
much, like lead starting batteries. They are considered to be immune to
Puekert effect, and I have tested some of the starter nicads and gotten
an energy density of 37Wh/kg (to 0.9V which Nicad will tolerate) at the
1C rate. An optima yellow top is probably not much above 22Wh/kg if you
figure 35Ah at 1C and 41 lb. I heard that 35Ah figure somewhere, sbut
haven't tested it. If you went to 240 cells, (2) 144V strings, then you
are about at 800 lb and are getting close to 120hp after power
conversion losses. And you would have ~13kWh. Which is a lot better
than most conversions. At 250Wh/mile that's a 52 mile range. at
300Wh/mile, that's more than 43 miles of range. A 1C discharge of 2 120
cell strings would be 10kW. Which is considered to be roughly what is
needed for cuising on the highway (or more than needed).
I bought mine (200 of them and want to unload ~100 of them) at
sg-photo.com
I have discharge test results, and others have hosted the xls file I
generated.
Seth
On Nov 28, 2004, at 11:53 PM, John Westlund wrote:
I'm looking to get a fairly decent amount of range, and the
Exides don't appear as if they would provide it.
I hear Optimas have suffered a significant decrease in
quality since their production shifted overseas. Is this
true? The conversions that used the earlier Optimas had such
great range for lead acid EVs.
Compared to the Exides, Optimas give excellent range, at
least according to simulations. The Exides only have about
270 deliverable wh per battery to full discharge, which
being 41 pounds each, is only about 13 wh/kilogram at the
1/2 hr rate(about 15-16 wh/kg at the 1 hr rate), while the
Optimas seem to have far more than that.
Does Hawker Genesis still make its sealed lead acid
batteries that the racers have used? Rich Brown has been
able to get 40 miles highway from Dualin 7 with about 800
pounds of these according to his austinev.org page. I'm
guessing that's to a full discharge, and not 80%.
Gel Cel batteries have excellent capacity, but are also
lacking in power I hear, usually not able to deliver more
than 300 amps reliably.
So what are my options for a battery that will allow about
120 horsepower(or more) for an 800 pound pack for a racing
application? Are Optimas still any good to use, or is it
taking a risk to use them? I'm not looking to break any
world records, I'm looking at a conversion that will use a
9-inch ADC motor or WarP9 motor and a Zilla 1k, with at
least a 192V pack, wanting to pull a 1/4 mile time in the
mid 15s or faster. But I also want at least 30 miles range
to 80% DoD at 60 MPH, assuming a consumption of less than
200 wh/mile. AC Propulsion showed 80+ mile ranges under
these constraints was possible, using a setup that would be
within 15% more efficient than what I'm looking at using,
but they used Optimas that may now be different in quality
than they were then. Exides look very dissappointing for
range.
Any suggestions?
I'm sure Wayland can give me estimates on how the Deka
Intimidators would fare. Can't wait for Rich to get ahold of
one to give the real figures.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is lousy. "Solo" was the first book I read about EVs and was what
convinced me it was a viable option. I even e-mailed him after I read it
and had a nice little conversation with him. He was a really good man.
John Shelton
1980 Voltsrabbit (Yes, the 72 volter)
-----Original Message-----
From: Brad Waddell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 20:54
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Death of Ev enthusiast
Noted EV book author dies:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/25/books/25perrin.html?oref=login
--
Brad - voice mail: 703-935-7647
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Thread-Topic: Death of Ev enthusiast
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From: "Shelton, John D AW1 \(VP-08\)--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [ETList] Gordon Dower's Ridek an' Stuff
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:05:40 -0500
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From: "Lee Dekker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "BatteryexchangeEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "EV SJS"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "EV world" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: [ETList] Gordon Dower's Ridek
> Hot Damn.a new way to do battery swapping. A little harder, more
restrictive and more
> costly then just robotic battery swapping but great fun to see this
happening.
>
> --- RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Gordon Dower's Ridek:
> > http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/Ridek.html
> > ET exclusive!
> >
> > Hi EVerybody;
A new twist to an old idea. But it could work, but ya need a bunch
of different " Platforms" to make it work. You cruise into the exchange and
the're out of the " car" you need, when you need it! If batteries,
themselves were swapped out, and there was a standard, Yeah! Right, they,
couldn't ,as manufacturers, settle on a basic charge plug, other than that
great 49 sense one from Home Despot!!
At the battery swap point they could whip together a bunch of standard
size cells to slide into your car. The other advanytage is that you would
get rid of that beat up old pack when you swapped out. THEY would test it
and get rid of the bummers.
Stil think Rich is on the right track with Fast charging, say several
hundred amps, Dump Charging with a barn full of , say, Forklift batteries,
floated on the grid always, able to pour out massive railroad anounts of
amps, controlled by, maybe Zilla types of controllers. I'm sure Otmar could
cook up the Zilla of Dump Charging controllers, DC to dc, Just dial in at
the start, the battery voltage the Zilla is to charge, and walk away, to the
Inconvience store, or some other Enchanting Place that ya needed to go,
anyhow. Get yur groceries, movie, or Block Buster, takes awile to weed out a
flick worth your time, anyhow.So if the car takes 20 minutes to charge, it
won't kill you!!EVen 10 minutes would send ya on your way, refreshed.
It's a chicken and egg thing anyhow, or maybe if you build it they will
come? But nobody really cares how much gas costs, judging by the number of
SUV's on the road and that they STILL make them!!!Yes I have had thoughts of
if I could sell a few conversions in my home town, set up a Kwick Charge
setup at my local Texico, I DO know the guy it belongs to, if he would let
me set up a facility to charge from? A Zilla off an AC sourse, 240 or 480
vac that commercial, like gas stations use. But you, I, would hafta create a
NEED for this, as well as spend MY bux on it.Then make it idiot proof!! Or
bribe the trained attendant to charge folks twice once to plugitin, and
again for the Juice used.
Too bad that Noel Perrin has left our ranks, that he didn't stop off at
John Wayland's Juice Bar, in PDX, in his travels east. Was sorta
dissapointed in the end result with Solo, he had to tow it most of the way,
but had he the knowledge of most folks on the List, he woulda made it to VT
without towing. Unfortunately when he was doing his thing was a different
time frame, was there EVen a List back then? He, was just ahead of his time,
sigh!Had anybody clued him in on the List, he woulda been one of the
contributers, but he was into alot of other cool stuff, BECIDES EV's.Maybe
wouldn't have had the time, but nice thought. Read, if you can get it, his
book! Good read!!I think I loaned MY copie out, too?!
There are alot of good folks out there that are unListed, struggling
alone, thinking that they ARE alone, trying to do an EV falling into the
pitfalls of the Beginning EV syndrome, spending too much money, on simple"
WE knew that wouldn't work "stuff, IE Generators on the front wheel, " But
you will get SOME of your power back!" I have tried to get folks to join in
the fun, sign up, just lerk, if you are a bit shy, or dive right in. Hey,
Newbees, no question is dumb or stupid, we all had to start somewhere. As a
family we hafta band together, with 4 more years, EAAAH!, we need strength
in numbers.
Anybody in China on the List? Just curious. I know that you Good Folks
are working on EV technology there. I see that there is a Japan EV Club, can
China and Korea be far behind?China , or Japan Chapter of NEDRA? Shanghai
Shootout , Current Eliminator goes up against..........?? Zombie runs aganst
Japan's "Real Zilla?"Lets go International!!
OK dream mode off,two watts worth
Seeya
Bob
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:26:49 -0800
From: "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: KSI Relay for Curtis 1231C controller?
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Is an automotive 12V relay acceptable to use on the KSI input for a
Curtis 1231C controller with full pack voltage (120V) across the NO
contacts, and 12V across the coil to pull it in?
Also, Curtis says in their manual that any voltage over 8V will turn on
the controller. Is it possible to use the 12V accessory battery to turn
on the controller? How would I wire this up without cross-connecting
the high-voltage and low-voltage systems?
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
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Subject: RE: eMeter temp sensor
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:49:20 -0800
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Michael Hoskinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'd like to include temp monitoring on my emeter.
> What do I do with the V+ lead of the LM35?
Hi Mike,
Connect the LM35 as shown in fig 5 of
<http://cache.national.com/ds/LM/LM35.pdf>.
You don't provide the top pair of paralleled resistors; they are inside
the E-Meter. All your circuit needs is the LM35 and a 1% 200R resistor.
I potted mine into a piece of 1/4" ID brass tubing about an inch long
using epoxy.
The positive lead of the LM35 connects to pin 6 of the E-Meter
("optional temperature sensor input"); the negative lead connects to pin
8 of the E-MEter ("optional temperature sensor ground").
<http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/72/docserve.asp>
Once you connect the external sensor, you must turn on advanced function
F16 before the E-Meter will start reading it. Once F16 is ON, you can
select F03 to observe the temperature being read by the E-Meter. Dunk
the sensor in ice water and boiling water to confirm its accuracy at
both extremes, or use a known good temperature measurement device to
compare it with.
Cheers,
Roger.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:55:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Job opening, battery management
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Rod,
SmartSpark may be hiring another engineer. I thought
you might know people who would be interested. If so,
please point them to
http://www.smartsparkenergy.com/employment.htm.
Jonathan
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 10:54:22 -0800
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 5:13 AM
Subject: Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
> >
> > Any suggestions?
> >
> > I'm sure Wayland can give me estimates on how the Deka
> > Intimidators would fare. Can't wait for Rich to get ahold of
> > one to give the real figures.
> >
>
Yea Joe and I have a couple batteries that we have to test for EV racers.
Pending some spare time from R&D... and production, We need to Do the Blast
tests and the Capacity tests.
Right now my battery testing efforts are targeted to getting the most
capcity and the fastest recharge from the stack of 20 Orbital XCD34 the
Wayland and I traded for.
This is a grad Student level effort.. There's a LOT of issues to track, and
since I do this battery charging for a living, Melting down a pack Wouldn't
be a good thing.
All the Orbs have been capacity checked on my old Heart inverter charger.
the range is .25kw to .32Kw. All have atleast 3 hard cycles on them. Then
all set out on a concrete slab for 3 months.
Now I need the biggest pack and the stiffest pack for recharge tests on the
Monster charger. Goldies old Yts just can't absorb 17Kw for more than a few
hunderd seconds. The new Orbs and 240 volt of them should suck down 100 amps
of charge power for at least 600 seconds. The goal is the fastest charge we
can generate...that's out at 30+kw... and no damage to the Pack.
We have a Regbuss , and a string of MK2B regs, with Lowbatt working, and
the new Fast cut back slow integration circuit installed. I get a bright
Yellow LED if any Orb goes under 10 volts, and the Regs pull the charger
back if any Reg goes over 14.8 volts and about a %50 regulator Dump duty
cycle. And let me tell you with 100+ amps going in the Regs go from No
action to locked on in about 5 seconds, blink...BLINK....LOCKED ON! So...
the feed back from the Regs allows single battery level protection, while
the charger might not even notice reading the total pack voltage.
In the first cycle I have 12 Orbs on the string... more by dark
tongiht... The Regs lit up about 15 seconds before the charger started it's
taper back funtion at the begining of the Absorbtion phase. I have one Orb
that charges up faster, and on the discharge one that gets empty WAY before
the rest. So... I have a perfect test for equalizing efforts on a new string
of Quality AGMs.
The last pass we got about 2.5 Kwhr from the pack without any damage. We
did Gas 3 Orbs but very briefly. Now I need to let the pack equalize off,
and try again. It's very clear that if I did not have Regs and a fast
meter, we would have broken a lot of Batteries. The test is being run from
the first battery to drop to 10.00 volts, and the first Reg go full locked
on at a 14.8 volt setting.
Clearly I expect to eventually just dial in the peak volts , and the whole
system just makes it happen without any Gassing, or over voltage excursions.
And of course getting the charger to hit it's maximum power levels for the
longest time.
I should keep a log of Kw into and out of the battery pack. We generate
charge curve data on every run of the Monster charger.. we could publish it.
Would like to see the data???
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:39:26 -0800
From: Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: looking for a used DCP DC/DC converter
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I am looking for another DCP DC/DC converter. Anyone on the list have
one they care to part with?
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 11:41:25 -0800
From: Paul Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Contacting AVCON, web site email not working
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The email on the avcon web site [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not working. Has
anyone contacted them by email recently?
Paul Wallace
'91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"Carlton Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 15:03:44 -0500
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Hi Carl,
Impressive indeed! Great looking car and project! Hope you'll keep us
updated on your progress.
Regarding the self-sealing LRR tires, do you know where Saturn got them,
i.e. who actually manufactures them, the make and model? Like most tires, I
assume that is probably stated on the tire, right? Do you happen to know if
it was it a one-time limited production run done only for the EV1, or is it
possible to actually special order these tires from whoever the manufacturer
is? Did you yourself buy them from a Saturn dealer in California, or did
you get them somewhere else?
Thanks for any additional info.
Best of luck on the project!
Charles
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carlton Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
> The LRR tires? Try calling a Saturn dealer in California. They might be
> able to sell you a replacement set designed for an EV1. You will want 14
> x 5.5 or 14 x 6 inch wheels.
>
> Thanks for the interest! We hope to get this car on the road in the next
> couple of months.
>
> Regards,
> Carl
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:15:48 -0800
Subject: Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
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From: Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Hello Carlton:
Can you suggest a good place to start looking for Prius or other hybrid
battery packs?
Thanks.
/Bob Siebert
On Saturday, November 27, 2004, at 04:56 PM, Carlton Brown wrote:
> For those of you interested in my electric Birkin S3 project featured
> at http://www.electric7.com, here are a few answers to the questions I
> have seen...
>
> The chassis was selected for its minimalist design, light weight, and
> narrow passenger compartment. The nature of the car leaves no need
> for weight-adding and power-using extras like power steering, power
> brakes, air conditioning, or even a radio. The narrow passenger
> compartment is important for a second second phase of the project,
> should it materialize...I agree that the Cd is pretty high with the
> Lotus 7-style shape. Despite its small size, it will have more usable
> energy on board than my lead-acid powered Solectria Force, while
> weighing almost 1,000 pounds less.
>
> The charger is a Brusa NLG513. It does have dV/dt detection, and it
> uses Brusa's ChargeStar software for charge profile configuration. If
> the photos on the web site do not load, I recommend trying again
> later. The server is pretty old and slow.
>
> There were enough Prius batteries in salvage yards in January of 2002.
> They were popular for use in FutureTruck vehicles, also.
>
> The LRR tires? Try calling a Saturn dealer in California. They might
> be able to sell you a replacement set designed for an EV1. You will
> want 14 x 5.5 or 14 x 6 inch wheels.
>
> Thanks for the interest! We hope to get this car on the road in the
> next couple of months.
>
> Regards,
> Carl
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 12:15:41 -0800 (PST)
From: brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: fuel gauge and clutchless shifting
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>You're on the right track, but there are a couple problems. First, motor
>current is not >battery current. The controller controls motor speed by
>reducing battery voltage and >*increasing* current, so motor current is in
>general higher than battery current. To >measure battery amphours, the shunt
>needs to be in series with the battery.
The shunt is already in series with the battery bank, soory I should have
clarified that. the only current that will not be taken into effect is what is
used by the DC-DC... But I am looking for a good approximation.
>Second, the capacity of lead-acid batteries is affected by the discharge
>current (called >the Peukert effect). For example, a golf cart battery will
>deliver 240ah at a 5a discharge >rate, but only 120ah at a 75a rate. Peukert's
>equation is:
>AH(p) = T x A^e where AH(p) = battery amphour capacity at a 1-amp discharge
>rate
>T = actual discharge time in hours
>A = actual discharge current in amps
>e = Peukert exponent; a unique value for each battery (ranges from 1.1 for a
>very good >low-resistance AGM, to 1.3 for a high- resistance inexpensive
>flooded)
>To estimate battery capacity with a shunt,
>1. Put the shunt in series with the battery.
>2. Have your computer measure the current on a fixed time base (like, once
>every >second)
>3. Use Peukert's equation to convert this number of amp-hours into the
>equivalent >Peukert amphours.
>4. Subtract this number of corrected Peukert amhours from the battery's
>Peukert >capacity. This is the number of amphours left if you finished your
>discharge at the 1->amp rate.
>5. Divide the AH left by the total AH to get the percent DOD. All this will
>get you close >to a percent DOD. But, it does not take into account
>temperature (as temperature >drops, Peukert capacity goes down and the Peukert
>exponent goes up). Nor does it >take into account battery aging, or balance
>problems between cells. To do this, you >have to also measure voltage and
>temperature, and apply suitable correction factors. >For example, you can
>measure the voltage after several hours no-load, and if it doesn't >agree with
>the %SOC based on amhour calculation, correct it according to the voltage.
Thank you, that helps a lot. that would explain why EV's get better range in
town rather than on the highway. greater the current draw, less the range. now
the trick will be to find the Peukert exponent for my particular batteries. an
approximation would be good enough for me. is there a standard value for gel
cells?
so now the question still remains. how low of a battery voltage should I pick
for the "empty"? its a 120V bank. oh, and while I'm on the subject. I recently
goofed. I left my car on for about a week and when I checked the main banks
voltage it was at about 13V!!! I have been charging each seperatly to equilize
and they seem to be holding a charge. how screwed am I? they are brand new and
this would be the very first discharge and a deep one at that!
Regards,
Brian B.
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