EV Digest 3937
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Tango news
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re modular chargers
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Reducing amps, voltage sag, cold drag. was Re: High current draw from
floodies,
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Reducing amps, voltage sag, cold drag. was Re: High current draw from
floodies,
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: KSI Relay for Curtis 1231C controller?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Modular Charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: PFC-20 as DC-DC (again)?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Modular Charger
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Tango news
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: PFC-20 as DC-DC (again)?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Modular Charger
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Gear Shopping
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: fuel gauge and clutchless shifting
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: High current draw from floodies, was RE: Motor Amps, Battery
Amps ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: High current draw from floodies, was RE: Motor Amps, Battery
Amps ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Fuel Cells Good! EVs Bad!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: High current draw from floodies, was RE: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Reducing amps, voltage sag, cold drag. was Re: High current draw from
floodies,
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 17:46:29 -0600, "Mark Thomasson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> See December Wired magazine, page 139 for one page Tango article. Also see:
> http://www.commutercars.com/
How does Commuter Cars achieve to run the Advanced DC FB1-4001 9" motors
with 300 VDC?
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have thought of a third option. It starts with numbering all the
batteries and laying them out on the floor before installation and
setting themn up for a charge.
this can be done in vehicle if moving batteries around isn't to much
hassle and may give better results.
a control board with isolalation relays (or transistors) applies charger
to whole pack during bulk phase.
a scanning voltmeter monitors the progress and causes a switch to
equalization phase
when the first battery is equalized the relays split the pack into two
halfs from 1 to battery-1 and from battery+1 to n(n= number of batteries)
the charger is set to number of batteries * equalization voltage(the
fun part) and charges each half string seperatly
a recursive descent divides each sub pack in to two until the charger is
charging 1 battery at a time until completion.
Now the benifit of all this extra hardware:
the batteries were numbered and the time spent on each battery was
tabulated. The batteries are sorted from largest capacity to smallest
capacity neg most to positive most position in the pack. The batteries
at the top of the pack finish first and the system charges 1 less
battery until done making for less overall time to equalize.
The only benifit over regulators is charging speed and 1 central box for
lots of batteries. in systems with 20+batteries this may prove more cost
effective?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chuck and All,
This is where having a low voltage motor run
on a batt pack twice or more it's ratings really
helps.
This allows the motor to turn at 5-6,500 rpm
so you can get the benefit of gearing, tractive
effort, to climb those hills without large amp draws,
hugh speed drops.
Remove the internal motor fan and replace it
with an external electric one to lower drag. They work
better anyway.
A motor running at twice the speed needs 1/2
the torque, thus amp draw to produce the same tractive
effort you need.
Tractive effort is the force at the road that
moves you. It's motor torque x gearing x wheel radius.
Smaller dia tires.
Run in the lowest possible gear and the
motor's highest rpm. E motors don't mind high rpm, in
fact love it as it reduces it's load, amps.
Also this is winter and several things need to
be done for it. Heat you batts and insulate them for
those north of Fla!!!!! They ALL MUST BE THE SAME TEMP
or will charge, discharge differently!!! Cold, below
60F batt temp, makes them sag a lot more, less range.
Top your charge for 10-15 minutes before you
leave.
Change your diff, trans fluids to syn, low
drag types. With EV's steady torque instead of an
ICe's pulses, EV's gears need less thick fluids than
ICE's do plus all fluids are thicker in winter.
Heating the diff and trans with water pipe
heat tape could help too.
Air pressure goes down as the temp does so
pump them back up as high as you can as cold tires use
more energy to roll.
Nick, try to reduce your weight by removing
anything you don't need like spare, roof rack, change
windows to lexan except winshield, remove sound
proofing, seats, spare tire lid to something lighter,
ect. If 4wh drive, replace either the front or rear
with a lighter unit.
Use 2 or more of Lee's batt bridge so to let
you know where in the pack a stinker may be. One every
36-48 volts would be nice.
Air is more dense when cold so air drag
reduction is even more important.
Add an Orbital parallel pack.
Luckily I live in Fla where it's flat and
today's high will be 80F.
BTW with the exception of Punta Gorda, Ft
Pierce and some of the panhandle, the rest of Fla was
unfazed by the hurricanes so come down for vacations.
They only hit rural areas mostly.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 03:43:45 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Chuck and All,
> This is where having a low voltage motor run
> on a batt pack twice or more it's ratings really
> helps.
> This allows the motor to turn at 5-6,500 rpm
> so you can get the benefit of gearing, tractive
> effort, to climb those hills without large amp draws,
> hugh speed drops.
> Remove the internal motor fan and replace it
> with an external electric one to lower drag. They work
> better anyway.
> A motor running at twice the speed needs 1/2
> the torque, thus amp draw to produce the same tractive
> effort you need.
Hi Jerry,
Using gearing to reduce the torque needed from the motor is a good
idea for keeping the motor current lower, which keeps the motor and
controller cooler and may improve efficiency a bit, but you won't
significantly reduce battery current this way - it just means you're
doing the gearing more after the motor instead of before it (in the
controller).
And increasing the system voltage to reduce the battery current is
fine in theory, but we're talking about lead-sleds here (no offence
anyone!)
Adding more of the same floodeds is not really an option for most, for
weight and space reasons.
And going by people's past reports, switching from 6 volt golf car
batts to 8V ones usually worsens battery life since with more voltage,
more horsepower is available and people use it - so then you've got a
faster car but the same sort of current draw on even lower capacity
batteries, which just makes the problem worse!
This is where AGMs or Nicads really start to look like a good idea..
> Nick, try to reduce your weight by removing
> anything you don't need like spare, roof rack, change
> windows to lexan except winshield, remove sound
> proofing, seats, spare tire lid to something lighter,
> ect. If 4wh drive, replace either the front or rear
> with a lighter unit.
Totally agree with that, since we're talking about going up hills
slowly and painfully, weight is the main factor. Although if 4wd,
it's probably a lost cause :)
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Is an automotive 12V relay acceptable to use on the KSI input for a
>> Curtis 1231C controller with full pack voltage (120V) across the NO
>> contacts, and 12V across the coil to pull it in?
I say "no". Automotive-grade relays have lower breakdown voltages, both
between their open contacts, and between coil and contacts. They are not
UL/CSA/CE tested or listed, and do not need to use fire-resistant
materials.
Now, it is possible to get automotive relays that are simply re-labelled
conventional relays. But, you should not count on this as a rule.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Once you add more-less smart balancers the reliability problem
> > of failure of one returns, althoug the bulk charge is done right
> > and the chances ruining one battery is greatly reduced.
> >
>
> How about you have n+1 modular chargers, with one inactive until there is a
> problem, having the system monitor outputs, with capability to hot-swap the
> backup unit for a failed charger plus alert the driver that "yes, the pack got
> charged, but you have to replace unit #X"?
That's kind of what my Battery Balancer system does. It has only one
charger, which it uses to charge the batteries one at a time. By
switching often enough, the batteries are still close to the same state
of charge even if the charger fails at some point.
Of course, this is very slow. So I have a big dumb series charger, which
puts 90% of the amphours back. The Balancer's charger then finishes the
job.
One could build versions with any number of chargers from 1 to N (where
N could even be more than the number of batteries).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug Weathers wrote:
> Sorry, but I'm having a terrible time locating the thread where we
> were discussing using your Manzanita Micro PFC-series charger as a
> DC-DC converter while driving.
The PFC chargers are not isolated. While you could use one as your
DC/DC, you'd wind up grounding your propulsion pack to the vehicle's
chassis. For safety, it is best to have the propulsion pack isolated
from ground.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just using a "hello I am alive" signal from a charger is probably
not adequate as the chargers can fail in a variety of subtle ways.
For example when I am bulk charging my elec-trak with the built
in charger and then switch to my three 12V chargers for the finish
charge I have to be very careful to end the bulk charge around
13.5V, otherwise the 12V smart chargers, when being turned on, will
sense a relatively high battery voltage and determine that the battery
is full, so they directly go into "float mode" and the battery
never gets charged fully. Depending on the SOC of the individual
batteries after the dump charging this may only happen to some
batteries, while others get fully charged. The indicator light
from the smart chargers doesn't help as you can't tell from it
if it went through the full charging cycle. Another failure of
my charger is if a charger wire becomes disconnected from the
battery - in this case the smart charger also shows "green".
In order to validate that each charger really worked we have
to do a "reality-check" that verifies that each battery got
charged - not only that the chargers internal circuit reports
"ok" to us.
As a momentary voltage measurement is probably not
sufficient on its own I would think for a large battery pack
one needs to have a monitor unit for each battery that records
a timeline of its SOC.
A simple approximation of this could possibly be a voltage
threshold trigger that turns on once the voltage at the
battery has at one point reached the finish charge voltage,
(which e.g. is the trigger voltage for the smart chargers to
switch to float). This should be easy enough to implement
with a zener diode and a self-holding circuit.
Markus
> > Perhaps shutting down the entire charger network is not the
> best idea.
> > How about a modular charger web? Each battery has a charger
> attached
> > to it, but that charger is connected to, say, the previous and
> > following batteries as well. Using whatever protocol
> (perhaps RegBus
> > or CANBUS) the chargers could talk to each other, and if one fails,
> > the ones on either side of it start feeding it's battery as well as
> > their own.
>
> Nice idea. The first and last battery in the string only has two
> adjacent chargers, though, unless you can solve the issue of
> connecting
> a single-battery charger where it might see full pack
> voltage. I also
> worry about the various failure modes of the modular chargers. You'd
> probably want the ability for the adjacent chargers to be
> able to shut
> down a runaway, or detect a dead short. Or am I being ignorant again?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Emil Naepflein wrote:
> How does Commuter Cars achieve to run the Advanced DC FB1-4001
> 9" motors with 300 VDC?
The Tango has two 9" motors, and contactors to switch them in series or
parallel. The Zilla controller delivers 0-300vdc, depending on throttle
position. So, the motors are in parallel when the controller is
outputting lower voltages, and in series when it is at higher voltages.
The switching is automatic, and controlled by the Zilla's "hairball"
control logic. In effect, this gives the Tango a 2-speed electric
transmission.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
KEPCO makes a 300 Watt & 600 watt ac or dc to dc converter that is small and
works well.
Pat
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
That's kind of what my Battery Balancer system does. It has only one
charger, which it uses to charge the batteries one at a time. By
switching often enough, the batteries are still close to the same state
of charge even if the charger fails at some point.
Of course, this is very slow. So I have a big dumb series charger, which
puts 90% of the amphours back. The Balancer's charger then finishes the
job.
One could build versions with any number of chargers from 1 to N (where
N could even be more than the number of batteries).
I've been out of the loop here, but what if you had a system like I
described a few days back. It would have a PFC front-end (not
necessarily a "PFC-30" or -50 as everyone knows here) distributing a
high voltage DC bus to individual flyback chargers that could charge 1
or two batteries at a time?
The flyback chargers could be made relatively inexpensive, given that a
flyback only requires one magnetic component, one PWM control, one
transistor, a cheap optical feedback.
I probably haven't been the first person to think of this, but I haven't
read anything about it.
--
Martin K
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For what ?
> What's a good place to buy quality gears? I tried QTC but I'm still waiting
> to
> hear back from them.
>
> Anyone have any experience with QTC or other vendors?
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> Peace can only come as a natural consequence
> of universal enlightenment. -Dr. Nikola Tesla
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
brian baumel wrote:
> Thank you, that helps a lot... Now the trick will be to find the
> Peukert exponent for my particular batteries.
It's different for every battery, and it changes with temperature and
age. Start by assuming a value of 1.2. Modify it according to what you
actually measure.
> How of a battery voltage should I pick for the "empty"? It's a
> 120V bank.
As we've said, the pack is "dead" when it can't deliver "enough" current
without dropping below 1.75v/cell. That's 105v for a 120v pack.
Here's what happens. With a fully charged pack, it takes over 500a to
pull the pack down to 105v. Your controller current limits before this
point; so it is the weak link, not the batteries.
As the batteries discharge, their voltage drops and their internal
resistance rises. As you get below about 50%SOC, the controller is no
longer the limiting factor; the batteries are. The current you can get
at 105v keeps dropping as SOC falls:
SOC amps at 1.75v/cell
--- ------------------
50% 500a
40% 400a
30% 250a
20% 100a
10% 50a
0% <1a
> I recently goofed. I left my car on for about a week and when I
> checked the main banks voltage it was at about 13V!
Ouch! This is very bad for battery life and capacity. If they are new,
and only sat dead a short time, and were discharged at a very low
current, you may be able to salvage them. They've probably lost half
their life, and 20-40% of their amphour capacity.
> I have been charging each separately to equilize and they seem to
> be holding a charge.
That's good. You'll want to leave each one on a low-current, >16v
charger for a few days, to equalize the cells in each battery. I do this
with a plain old transformer-rectifier charger or power supply, with a
resistor or car tail light in series to limit the current to under 1
amp. Leave it on until the battery voltage stops rising (it should go
past 15v).
Then, you'll want to do a discharge test to see how many amphours you
have. You may find 1 or more batteries that are so much less than the
rest that it would be better to replace them than to let them hold back
the whole pack.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> Thank you for the detailed explanation!
You're welcome!
> I'll continue to monitor my battery voltages immediately after I
> return from future trips to see if I can spot any problematic
> batteries.
Good plan. Good batteries will bounce above 2.0v/cell in a matter of
seconds when the load is removed. Batteries with a dead cell will be
significantly lower, and take minutes to hours to finally get back over
2.0v/cell. Batteries with a reversed cell will *stay* below 2.0v/cell
indefinitely; you have to put them on charge to get them back.
> Of course, I'm monitoring each battery by hand at this point.
> I'm still working on some sort of system so I can monitor the
> individual voltages of all the batteries from the dash.
Yes; it gets old fast, doesn't it? :-)
The simplest monitor is an LED, resistor, and zener diode in series, one
across each battery. Pick the parts so the LED barely glows at 2.0v/cell
(the nominal battery voltage; 12v for a 12v battery, etc.), and is full
brightness (like 20ma) at 2.5v/cell (15v for a 12v battery). The human
eye is very good at comparing brightness; you can tell at a glance what
the relative battery voltages are.
> I'll try to be more conscience about not going below 140 volts, but
> there are some times that it is unavoidable... What is frustrating
> is that it seems almost any load over ~225 amps causes my pack
> voltage to sag a lot (sometimes to or a bit below 140v). The
> exception being the first 5 or so miles after just being charged,
Yes. This is normal behavior for lead-acid batteries. They are at their
best right off charge, and when new, and warm.
As they run down, or get cold, or just get older, their internal
resistance rises, and you can no longer get as much current.
As winter is approaching, your problem might just be that your batteries
are cold.
A few seconds of higher current won't hurt. Just recognize that every
time you pull them below that 1.75v/cell, you are deciding to shorten
their life in return for quicker accelleration now.
The classic "new EVer" mistake is to keep driving when the pack is being
pulled well below 1.75v/cell. You keep thinking, "It's only a little
farther home, I can make it." The EV keeps going slower and slower, and
the pack is pulled to half its voltage or worse! You ruin your pack, all
so you could drive 1 more mile. That last mile cost you hundreds of
dollars in battery damage.
If instead, you pulled over to the side of the road and let the pack
rest half an hour, it would have recovered sufficiently so you could
drive home normally, without pulling them so low.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> the simplest thing you can add is my Battery Bridge light.
Nick Viera wrote:
> Do you have a schematic (or was it already posted and I missed it)?
I've posted it a number of times, but here it is again.
The Batt-Bridge is an "idiot" light that tells you if you have or are
about to reverse a cell somewhere in the pack. Here is the circuit (view
with a fixed-width font like Courier New or FixedSys):
R1
R=(Vpack/20ma)
Batt+ _____/\/\/\___________
|
high-brightness |
Red LED |
_____|/|_____|
| |\| |
center________| _|_ normal-brightness
tap | _\_/_ Green LED
|_____|\|_____|
|/| |
high-brightness |
Red LED |
Batt- _____/\/\/\___________|
R2
R=(Vpack/20ma)
R1 and R2 set the quiescent current at about 20ma. They should be
identical values, matched within 1% or better.
If the center tap is at exactly half the voltage, the green LED is on.
If your pack is 96v for example, Batt+ will be +48v and Batt- is at -48v
(with the voltmeter common connected to the center-tap).
With the - end of a voltmeter on the center tap, there will be about
+1.2v at the anode of the green LED, and -1.2v at the cathode of the
green LED. Thus there is only 1.2v across each red LED, and they do not
light.
Now suppose there is a dead cell in the upper half. Batt+ is +94v, and
Batt- is -96v. The current in R1 and R2 is the same, so the voltage drop
across them is the same. The anode of the green LED falls 1 volt to
+0.2v, and the cathode falls to -2.2v. The green LED stays lit the same,
but the lower Red LED now has 2.2v across it, so it lights! By making it
a high-brightness type, it overpowers the green LED and all you see is
red.
Likewise, if the lower half has a dead cell, the upper red LED lights.
It only takes a 2v difference to switch a red LED from fully off to
fully on.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't seem to find a website for Brusa chargers. Anybody got a URL. I'm
looking at price and size. Thanks Lawrence Rhodes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
You can download charging profile (along with PC software) for BRUSA
charger from metricmind web site. If you want, you can install the
software,
load the profile and inspect what it does; you don't need to have actual
charger for that.
Victor
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Is it possible that this software will work with NiCad? If so what
charger would I need?????Lawrence Rhodes.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: Impressive NiMH conversion on the Web
I am not sure but it looks lsimilar to the NLG (Brusa) charger software
I used with their 4xx series units. Maybe it is a later release?
Seth
On Nov 26, 2004, at 2:29 PM, Electro Automotive wrote:
I just stumbled onto this site this morning:
http://www.electric7.com/
It is an AC drive NiMH powered EV project, using NiMH batteries
salvaged from hybrid electric cars. Anyone know anything about this
one? Do those look like Prius batteries?
What I want to know is, have there REALLY been enough hybrids junked
already to be able to salvage batteries?
And what are they using for a charger? Those photos never loaded on my
computer.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From ETlist.
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 09:08:29 -0500
From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Fuel Cells Good! EVs Bad!
From:
Sandi Brockway / Macrocosm USA
brockway@ macronet.org
From:
http://www.aerogelcomposite.com/applications/applications.html#fuelcell
"A polymer electrolyte membrane fuel cell (PEMFC) is an electrochemical
device that produces electricity, heat and water by combining hydrogen and
oxygen gas. The PEMFC is being developed aggressively for use in on-site
power generation and for the replacement of the internal combustion engine
in vehicle applications. The PEMFC is comprised of a membrane electrode
assembly (MEA) typically made of an ionically conducting polymeric membrane
sandwiched between two electronically conducting electrodes. Typical
electrodes for PEMFC applications are made of a gas diffusion layer
(usually porous carbon paper) supporting a layer of finely dispersed
platinum on carbon catalyst."
http://www.aerogelcomposite.com
c/o ICA, Inc.
102R Filley Street, Unit H
Bloomfield CT 06002-1853
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/IndustryDirectory/
IndustryDirectoryExternal/IndustryDirectoryDisplayCompany/
FuelCellToday/IndustryDirectory/IndustryDirectoryExternal/
IndDirectListCountry/0,2284,224,00.html>UNITED STATES
Primary Interest:
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/
IndustryDirectory/IndustryDirectoryExternal/
IndustryDirectoryDisplayCompany//FuelCellToday/
IndustryDirectory/IndustryDirectoryExternal/
IndDirectListBusInterest/0,1680,6,00.html>Material Supplier
Secondary Interest:
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/
IndustryDirectory/IndustryDirectoryExternal/
IndustryDirectoryDisplayCompany//FuelCellToday/
IndustryDirectory/IndustryDirectoryExternal/
IndDirectListBusInterest/0,1680,5,00.html
Manufacturer Primary Technology:
http://www.fuelcelltoday.com/FuelCellToday/
IndustryDirectory/IndustryDirectoryExternal/
IndustryDirectoryDisplayCompany//FuelCellToday/
IndustryDirectory/IndustryDirectoryExternal/
IndDirectListTechnology/0,2285,1,00.html
Proton-Exchange Membrane
FYI, a PROTON EXCHANGE MEMBRANE is used is H2 FUEL CELLS.
Your CT company perhaps needs to be told that their primary technology is
defunct.
LOL.
There are tons of fuel cell companies in CT ... and Canada. Japan and Europe
are coming out with the first H2 fuel cell cars now.
Your Aerogel fuel cell must have power source like any fuel cell or
battery -- and it can be clean or dirty. But, no matter how you cut it, the
Aerogel PEM fuel cell uses H2.
http://www.ctfuelcell.uconn.edu/cgfcc_participating_research_facu.htm
http://www.mesofuel.com/product/index.asp
I am surprised that you are so out of the loop that you do not realize that
the Feds are talking about pumping 100 billion dollars into upgrading our
failing grids. How can you NOT know this?
As for the danger of H2, where do you get your info? it had been proven that
gasoline is far more dangerous than H2. this, too, is old outdated
misinformation based on the Hindenberg story.
Bush has had little to nothing to do with the progress of hydrogen -- he has
set it back. This blatant lie has been perpetuated so much, I am beginning
to suspect the reliability of so called progressive sources.
Where did you come up with such a conclusion? His blueprint for H2 is only
to conform to oil, nuclear and coal, not the Green H2 blueprint being
followed by most other countries.
You also say that only Republicans support H2. Why are you inventing this
horse shit? Lovins? the Apollo Alliance? Japan, Europe and Canada? Do you
ever reality test your conclusions? Distributed (decentralized) green
hydrogen does not perpetuate any sort of oligarchy -- not when communities
harvest their own H2 via solar, wind, biogas, biomass, etc.
It does not require the same infrastructure gasoline does -- or a mass grid.
Where do you get your information? I am shocked at your lack of
imagination -- and how quick your are to perpetuate this misinformation.
If you can come up with a better system that can harvest fuel anywhere,
great. Talk about it.
But, apparently your magic answer is aerogel from CT, and I found out their
major work is in H2 PEM fuel cells.
You need to get your story straight. The token 5 billion over what, 10
years, is a joke. Bush's real interest is nuclear, coal and oil -- H2 was
only a token given to all the major energy producers, car manufacturers,
renewable energy focus is all on H2 and that it can also be used dirty.
The focus should be GREEN HYDROGEN, and it is doable -- and not a grid
upgrade.
Already there are 150 solar hydrogen fueling stations world wide. Honda set
up one in Los Angeles about three years ago.
Fuel cells hold the best promise for Renewable Energy and DISTRIBUTED POWER.
We need to stop any further grid upgrade, new nuclear power plants, or
further clean coal expenditures.
Your dysinformation is not going to help anyone. I certainly expected more
from you.
You call 5 billion dollars over a 10 year period squandering? yes, they are
squandering money that shouldgo to clean energy, but not on H2. why are you
promoting such garbage.
Why are not you complaining about the $100 bil the want to put into
upgrading the grid?
Or the gazillion into clean coal research and development?
Or the gazillion more to go into 12-20 new slated nuke plants?
Or oil?
Your logic is ass backwards. we need to argue for Green H2, no grid upgrade,
and no new nukes or no coal tech. Bush only threw token change at H2. yet,
you are pitting renewables and batteries against H2? H2 gets pennies and you
act like it is the whole budget. you will find other renewables and
batteries or whatever you are bitching about got collectively probably more.
Simple. yet, you are creating needless infighting and dysinformation.
Did you know that GREENPEACE is supporting green hydrogen, yet you are
telling everyone that only Republicans support H2. This is such needless
gross misinformation.
Sandi
[[ Dear Sandi,
You only have half the story.
The one good thing about all the money that was lavished on H2 and fuel cell
r&d is the development of such new materials. But what all this isn't
telling you, is that aerogel, in and of itself, has an amazing propensity to
hold an incredible amount of charge, which makes them great capacitors, and
ultimately even better stand-alone 100% electrical storage systems, with
little or no need for any additional outside chemical catalyst like H2, and
super-light weight to boot!
In otherwords, the cat just bit its tail!
You'll have to come to this on your own.
FYI I never said H2 was dangerous... where did I say this?
H2 will climb over your head from levity way before it burns you in case of
fire.
The only people who died in the Hindenburg are the people who jumped!
H2 has its place... but why carry the molecule when you can carry the
electron?
Pure electron storage is more than adequate for automobiles.
That's all I'm talking about here.
Why comber the automobile with more moving parts than it has to?
Why transport the energy conversion power plant on board, when they can be
made much more clean and efficient stand-alone and stationary, and one only
needs pump the electrons into the vehicle?
Both Honda and Toyota are taking a step back from fuel cells.
The whole exercise of the hybrid was to get the technology to the point
where the engine became superfluous.
That comes with better motors and better batteries.
You can have your chemical fuel cell if you want, but why bother with the
extra complication and expense?
We already have pure electric car prototypes doing 0 to 60 in under 4
seconds with a 300 mile range, and with algorithmic chargers, they take less
than 15 minutes to recharge.
H2 and fuel cells just complicates things, makes them more costly, and
propels them even further in time.
You need to get out from under the fuel cell lobby, and smell the coffee.
We're building electric cars!
Remy C. ]]
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--- Begin Message ---
Optima Yellow tops are as good as they ever were.
They still do a very good job for fast perky EVs.
We have found that Exide Orbotal XCD34s are better for all out drag racing.
But.. I would still do a EV with Yts, it's just that I would have to pay
list for them right now.
Yellow tops are still the gold Standard for heavy street racing and high
power affordable EVs.
Light powerfull and clean.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
> Judging by lack of responses on the Optimas, and from what I
> could find in the archives, I'm guessing they are no longer
> as quality made as they used to have been? If so, that will
> be quite disappointing. The Optimas AC Propulsion used would
> work wonders for both the range and performance I'd like to
> have.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wait a minute..
The Orbitals that I have have almost the EXACT same capcity as Optima
Yellow tops.
For all but the serious die hards the two batteries are the same!!
In Fact the Orbs have a little MORE capacity than the Yts.
Yts new made about .28 Kw on a 1500 watt load. The Orbs make .30Kwhr
I yanked 3.6 kw from 12 last night. And turned around and stuffed 13,000
watts of charge into them. Note that this was a 12 series string pack, and
ALL were not at the same DOD. One was at 10 volts so I terminated that draw
down cycle. As the pack gets better equalized, I hope to get more from all
of them. As well as testing the charger's software, and the saftey BMS, I am
also finding out how much effort is needed to equalize the pack. I have not
given up on any single battery.
Cleary I am spending a LOT of time and funds to build a extremely fast
charger, and support equipment. It's bad when yout test gear overheats
draining the batteries at 40 amps and the chargers fans don't come off of
idle at 80 amps at 170 volts. Even at 100 amps(our current test limit) the
chargers cooling system never goes over idle. I don't have a logical way to
absorb 32Kw.
Gimme some time, it can be done....
Right now the limits are the safety voltage peaks and the battery cables on
the test pack. Yea I am overheating 0/1 cables while charging. Yea ... that
clamp gots some corrosion I can't see.
Keep in mind that the Monster charger could make 225 amps at these
voltages....We are not even over %50 of the design power levels.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 11:43 PM
Subject: Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
> I am highly interested in this data. Fast charging looks to
> be one of the more promising ways to extend EV utility, even
> despite Exide's severely hampered range. I cannot wait to
> see what your results turn out to be.
>
> If only Exides had a higher specific capacity to allow 50+
> mile ranges highway like a 240V pack of Optimas would
> have...
>
> I applaud you on your efforts. I think this is going to work
> very nicely, especially for the drag racers.
>
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >I should keep a log of Kw into and out of the battery pack.
> We generate
> >charge curve data on every run of the Monster charger.. we
> could publish it.
> >Would like to see the data???
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Chuck
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Chuck,
Wayland and I found that you get a LOT more range out of the same amount
of AGM as Flooded. BUT you had to have a pretty good charger. I think I have
that problem solved.
I have 7 of the original Yts still in Goldie with a few thousand cycles on
them, and they have been at every Woodburn except the first. So, used abused
and put way wet.
Even with this abuse I can yank 3Kw out of them on a day that is not too
cold. Note in a prevous post, that's not much less than a sane draw down on
a new pack.
As to the power levels, there is not much to comapre to.... the AGMs will
knock your socks off. The Puekert on those floodeds is like 1.25 or better.
Fresh AGMs are like 1.03 to 1.05. Basicly not a issue until you go over 500
amps. And even at that your battery cables will present the larger losses.
So... I would try the AGMs since... it's cheap. You will need a good
Charger...for both applications, and you will need a good State of charge
meter like the E-meter/Link 10. Or Bruce Sherry's BSD meter.
AGMs do need equalizers of some kind. Regs are what I recomend. Any system
that caps the peak voltage at under 15 volts and over 14.5 will be good
enough.
Slag down a set of AGMs..Then it you can't keep them on line for more than a
couple of years, then jump to NiCds. With good mangment AGM PbLas have great
cycle life and high power. Without.. or with a dose of bad luck, Yea AGMs
can be a real quick loss of funds and the Oh so great EV grin.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan Tuer wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 03:43:45 -0800 (PST), jerry dycus
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi Chuck and All,
> > This is where having a low voltage motor run
> > on a batt pack twice or more it's ratings really
> > helps.
As I recall, Mike Slominski, who could pull down 100+ mile runs
at will with his Rabbit holding 16 Trojan T-125s (all the
batteries in one physical pack where the rear seat used to be,
and well balanced; car lighter at 2700lbs; no clutch but still
shifting gears; current limiter), had a small GE motor. I have
concerns about thermal issues, though, when we get to the
105-degF summer days and our hills around here. That small motor
is going to heat up faster, right? I think 8" is about right
here, but it would be more efficient with higher voltage than it
sees in my car (max about 80V; motor is rated 72-96V, I believe).
> > This allows the motor to turn at 5-6,500 rpm
> > so you can get the benefit of gearing, tractive
> > effort, to climb those hills without large amp draws,
> > hugh speed drops.
> > Remove the internal motor fan and replace it
> > with an external electric one to lower drag. They work
> > better anyway.
Just how hard is it to pull the fan out of an 8" ADC? Means
separating the motor from the tranny. More garage time at a
friend's, not to be done at the apt. I get interested, because I
think I have a fair amount of windage in both the motor and the
transmission when I get up to those high rpms. I will eventually
have to add ducting and perhaps a fan anyways since my bellypan
(added in 2001) makes the motor run warmer (no more slipstream
under the car to take the heat away from the motor).
> > A motor running at twice the speed needs 1/2
> > the torque, thus amp draw to produce the same tractive
> > effort you need.
>
> Hi Jerry,
>
> Using gearing to reduce the torque needed from the motor is a
good
> idea for keeping the motor current lower, which keeps the
motor and
> controller cooler and may improve efficiency a bit, but you
won't
> significantly reduce battery current this way - it just means
you're
> doing the gearing more after the motor instead of before it (in
the
> controller).
>
> And increasing the system voltage to reduce the battery current
is
> fine in theory, but we're talking about lead-sleds here (no
offence
> anyone!)
> Adding more of the same floodeds is not really an option for
most, for
> weight and space reasons.
Definitely, no more weight! I have looked at putting two 6V'ers
behind the front seats in the foot wells, anchored down in their
own cases, on a temporary basis, for 108V, if I wanted to play
range games for rallies (on a healthy pack that would probably
get me about 80-90 miles) before pulling out of a stoplight
created too much sag (end the run!). But 16 of these 6V'ers is
all I'm willing to carry on a long-term basis. I've met people
who had 26, I think it was, in a VW Rabbit -type platform
(Scirocco or some such). Ouch, ouch, ouch, oh that makes my back
hurt just thinking about it!!
> And going by people's past reports, switching from 6 volt golf
car
> batts to 8V ones usually worsens battery life since with more
voltage,
> more horsepower is available and people use it - so then
you've got a
> faster car but the same sort of current draw on even lower
capacity
> batteries, which just makes the problem worse!
>
> This is where AGMs or Nicads really start to look like a good
idea..
>
>
> > Nick, try to reduce your weight by removing
> > anything you don't need like spare, roof rack, change
> > windows to lexan except winshield, remove sound
> > proofing, seats, spare tire lid to something lighter,
> > ect. If 4wh drive, replace either the front or rear
> > with a lighter unit.
>
> Totally agree with that, since we're talking about going up
hills
> slowly and painfully, weight is the main factor. Although if
4wd,
> it's probably a lost cause :)
Weight... Well, each one of my seats in the Rabbit, if I recall,
is 33lbs. I've pulled out the passenger one on occasion. Do
they make lighter seats? I'd sure like to upgrade to 3-point
seatbelts from the 2-point kneebar setup I have now (standard on
many 80s Rabbits). I think there is a bolt hole low down on the
pillar for an anchor there. This is probably racing/perf shop
stuff.
Lexan windows - how much weight savings there? And what about
those 8-lb wheels for the EV1? I believe my steel 5" rims are
15lbs apiece (would have to check the logbook), so there would be
a 4*7lb drop of 28lbs. Is there much weight savings with
aluminum wheels?
Aluminum fenders and hood - hey more bodywork!
But then there is that insipid brake drag for front disc brakes.
Jack the front of the car up, grab the tire and give it a hard
spin with both hands - mine will stop before one revolution is
complete. So I've read the EVDL brake threads with interest...
At least it goes and gets me around... The mods will come very
slowly...
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