EV Digest 3938
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: After a simple voltmeter circuit using LEDs
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Tango news
by "steve ollerton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: fuel gauge and clutchless shifting
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Kaptain Kleaver and minis
by "steve ollerton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: High current draw from floodies, was RE: Motor Amps, Battery
Amps ?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Tango news
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: High current draw from floodies, was RE: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Reducing amps, voltage sag, cold drag. was Re: High current draw from
floodies,
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Modular Charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: High current draw from floodies, was RE: Motor Amps, Battery
Amps ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Reducing amps, voltage sag, cold drag. was Re: High current draw from
floodies,
by "Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Re modular chargers
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Gear Shopping
by Dragan Stancevic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Gear Shopping
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Nice circuit, though I see why you'd have trouble with high voltage to your
dashboard.
How about this idea? Put the input of the opto isolators where the 2 LEDs are
and then ran the output to dashboard mounted LEDs.
You would avoid the whole opto linearity problem too.
Then if you can find optos cheap enough (e.g. got mine $0.25 each at a hamfest)
you could do the whole pack in 2 color indicators.
Mike Shipway
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2004 03:32 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: After a simple voltmeter circuit using LEDs
>
> The schematic is below. Thanks to Lee Hart for making such cool ascii
> art and helping out with the values.
>
> _________________________
> | D1 | |
> | 6.2v _|_/ green > R2
> | zener //_\ __|\|__ > 1k
> +__|__ | | |/| | >
> 12v ___ A |___| |___| B
> - | | | red | |
> | > |__|/|__| _|_/ D2
> | R3 > R1 |\| //_\ 6.2v
> | 47 > 1k | zener
> |__/\/\___|_______________|
>
> The key here is to use a red/green LED that comes in one package. At
> first we were fiddling with simple resistor ladders, but they were too
> boring and sensitive.
> At 12.4 volts, the voltages across the diodes are a perfect zero since
> the current between R1-D1 matches R2-D2. Now when the voltage goes above
> 12.4, current starts to flow thru the diode on the green side. When the
> voltage hits 14.7, the green LED is lit and you know you're overcharging.
> Likewise, when the voltage drops below 12.4, current starts to flow
> "backwards" thru the red LED. When the voltage hits 10.9 volts, the red
> LED lights on, and you know you're running low.
> It's really a simple circuit, but very clever. Normally all lights are
> off, and you know things are good. When you see a flicker of red, your
> eye picks up on it fast and you know something's wrong (ie: batteries
> are going low). See one RED led without the two others, and you have a
> battery imbalance issue to address with a hard overcharge.
> Likewise if you see two greens and one dark while charging you know
> something's up there as well.
>
>
> Joe Smalley wrote:
> > I vaguely recall the circuit. It had a problem with the LED brightness
> > changing with voltage. There was a solution for the brightness issue but
> > that part gets fuzzy.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does it have 1 motor per wheel? Is a "electronic" differential required?
I am wanting to drive my EV with one motor per wheel (front wheel drive).
How is this best done? 2 controllers? Just connect the motors in parallel
and let them sort themselves out?
Ta
Steve (UK)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Tango news
> Emil Naepflein wrote:
> > How does Commuter Cars achieve to run the Advanced DC FB1-4001
> > 9" motors with 300 VDC?
>
> The Tango has two 9" motors, and contactors to switch them in series or
> parallel. The Zilla controller delivers 0-300vdc, depending on throttle
> position. So, the motors are in parallel when the controller is
> outputting lower voltages, and in series when it is at higher voltages.
> The switching is automatic, and controlled by the Zilla's "hairball"
> control logic. In effect, this gives the Tango a 2-speed electric
> transmission.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some food for thought on your clutchless shifting:
http://www.circuitcellar.com/avr2004/DA3784.html
- Steven Ciciora
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kaptain Kleavers email address ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) no longer works.
I would like to speak to Richard Bebbington or anyone else who has converted
a mini to EV. Please email me
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve ollerton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: Tango news
> Does it have 1 motor per wheel? Is a "electronic" differential required?
>
> I am wanting to drive my EV with one motor per wheel (front wheel drive).
> How is this best done? 2 controllers? Just connect the motors in parallel
> and let them sort themselves out?
>
> Ta
>
> Steve (UK)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:37 PM
> Subject: Re: Tango news
>
>
> > Emil Naepflein wrote:
> > > How does Commuter Cars achieve to run the Advanced DC FB1-4001
> > > 9" motors with 300 VDC?
> >
> > The Tango has two 9" motors, and contactors to switch them in series or
> > parallel. The Zilla controller delivers 0-300vdc, depending on throttle
> > position. So, the motors are in parallel when the controller is
> > outputting lower voltages, and in series when it is at higher voltages.
> > The switching is automatic, and controlled by the Zilla's "hairball"
> > control logic. In effect, this gives the Tango a 2-speed electric
> > transmission.
> > --
> > "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> > citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> > has!" -- Margaret Mead
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Am I reading your schematic correctly, that the value of the resistors
should be pack voltage divided by 20? That would make them 8 ohms for
my 160-volt nominal pack, which sounds too small to me?
Thanks,
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
--------------------------------------------
On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 11:57, Lee Hart wrote:
> >> the simplest thing you can add is my Battery Bridge light.
>
> Nick Viera wrote:
> > Do you have a schematic (or was it already posted and I missed it)?
>
> I've posted it a number of times, but here it is again.
>
> The Batt-Bridge is an "idiot" light that tells you if you have or are
> about to reverse a cell somewhere in the pack. Here is the circuit (view
> with a fixed-width font like Courier New or FixedSys):
>
> R1
> R=(Vpack/20ma)
> Batt+ _____/\/\/\___________
> |
> high-brightness |
> Red LED |
> _____|/|_____|
> | |\| |
> center________| _|_ normal-brightness
> tap | _\_/_ Green LED
> |_____|\|_____|
> |/| |
> high-brightness |
> Red LED |
> Batt- _____/\/\/\___________|
> R2
> R=(Vpack/20ma)
>
> R1 and R2 set the quiescent current at about 20ma. They should be
> identical values, matched within 1% or better.
>
> If the center tap is at exactly half the voltage, the green LED is on.
> If your pack is 96v for example, Batt+ will be +48v and Batt- is at -48v
> (with the voltmeter common connected to the center-tap).
>
> With the - end of a voltmeter on the center tap, there will be about
> +1.2v at the anode of the green LED, and -1.2v at the cathode of the
> green LED. Thus there is only 1.2v across each red LED, and they do not
> light.
>
> Now suppose there is a dead cell in the upper half. Batt+ is +94v, and
> Batt- is -96v. The current in R1 and R2 is the same, so the voltage drop
> across them is the same. The anode of the green LED falls 1 volt to
> +0.2v, and the cathode falls to -2.2v. The green LED stays lit the same,
> but the lower Red LED now has 2.2v across it, so it lights! By making it
> a high-brightness type, it overpowers the green LED and all you see is
> red.
>
> Likewise, if the lower half has a dead cell, the upper red LED lights.
> It only takes a 2v difference to switch a red LED from fully off to
> fully on.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
steve ollerton wrote:
> Does it have 1 motor per wheel? Is a "electronic" differential
> required? How is this best done? 2 controllers? Just connect the
> motors in parallel and let them sort themselves out?
Yes, it has 1 motor per rear wheel. Each motor drives its wheel through
a 5:1 gear reduction.
In series, the two motors act exactly like a conventional car
differential. Both motors run at the same current, so both deliver the
same torque.
In parallel, they act like a limited-slip differential. This happens
automatically; no control circuits are needed.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick,
V=RI
I is 20 mAmps or 0.02 amps, so 160/.02 is 8k
resistor. 8.06 kohm is a standard 1% value.
Rod
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Am I reading your schematic correctly, that the
> value of the resistors
> should be pack voltage divided by 20? That would
> make them 8 ohms for
> my 160-volt nominal pack, which sounds too small to
> me?
>
> Thanks,
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>
> --------------------------------------------
> On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 11:57, Lee Hart wrote:
> > >> the simplest thing you can add is my Battery
> Bridge light.
> >
> > Nick Viera wrote:
> > > Do you have a schematic (or was it already
> posted and I missed it)?
> >
> > I've posted it a number of times, but here it is
> again.
> >
> > The Batt-Bridge is an "idiot" light that tells you
> if you have or are
> > about to reverse a cell somewhere in the pack.
> Here is the circuit (view
> > with a fixed-width font like Courier New or
> FixedSys):
> >
> > R1
> > R=(Vpack/20ma)
> > Batt+ _____/\/\/\___________
> > |
> > high-brightness |
> > Red LED |
> > _____|/|_____|
> > | |\| |
> > center________| _|_ normal-brightness
> > tap | _\_/_ Green LED
> > |_____|\|_____|
> > |/| |
> > high-brightness |
> > Red LED |
> > Batt- _____/\/\/\___________|
> > R2
> > R=(Vpack/20ma)
> >
> > R1 and R2 set the quiescent current at about 20ma.
> They should be
> > identical values, matched within 1% or better.
> >
> > If the center tap is at exactly half the voltage,
> the green LED is on.
> > If your pack is 96v for example, Batt+ will be
> +48v and Batt- is at -48v
> > (with the voltmeter common connected to the
> center-tap).
> >
> > With the - end of a voltmeter on the center tap,
> there will be about
> > +1.2v at the anode of the green LED, and -1.2v at
> the cathode of the
> > green LED. Thus there is only 1.2v across each red
> LED, and they do not
> > light.
> >
> > Now suppose there is a dead cell in the upper
> half. Batt+ is +94v, and
> > Batt- is -96v. The current in R1 and R2 is the
> same, so the voltage drop
> > across them is the same. The anode of the green
> LED falls 1 volt to
> > +0.2v, and the cathode falls to -2.2v. The green
> LED stays lit the same,
> > but the lower Red LED now has 2.2v across it, so
> it lights! By making it
> > a high-brightness type, it overpowers the green
> LED and all you see is
> > red.
> >
> > Likewise, if the lower half has a dead cell, the
> upper red LED lights.
> > It only takes a 2v difference to switch a red LED
> from fully off to
> > fully on.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chuck, Evan and All,
--- Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Evan Tuer wrote:
> > On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 03:43:45 -0800 (PST), jerry
> dycus
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Hi Chuck and All,
> > > This is where having a low voltage motor
> run
> > > on a batt pack twice or more it's ratings really
> > > helps.
>
> As I recall, Mike Slominski, who could pull down
> 100+ mile runs
> at will with his Rabbit holding 16 Trojan T-125s
> (all the
> batteries in one physical pack where the rear seat
> used to be,
> and well balanced; car lighter at 2700lbs; no clutch
> but still
> shifting gears; current limiter), had a small GE
> motor. I have
> concerns about thermal issues, though, when we get
> to the
> 105-degF summer days and our hills around here.
> That small motor
> is going to heat up faster, right? I think 8" is
> about right
> here, but it would be more efficient with higher
> voltage than it
> sees in my car (max about 80V; motor is rated
> 72-96V, I believe).
You need a motor that can turn higher rpm because
amps = torque and at the same amps x rpm, you get
twice the geared torque to the road by a motor turning
twice the rpm for the same amps. You use more of your
voltage, true, but for the same road torque you would
need 1/2 the amps reducing sag, stress on the batts.
Instead of getting a higher voltage, it's easier
to get a lower voltage motor of like 48vdc, then run
it at 96vdc to make power at high rpm.
A 48vdc 10-11" GE or rewind a dead 8" ADC, ect
wound to 48vdc or 6,000rpm so the motor will turn at
the higher rpm..
>
> > > This allows the motor to turn at 5-6,500
> rpm
> > > so you can get the benefit of gearing, tractive
> > > effort, to climb those hills without large amp
> draws,
> > > hugh speed drops.
> > > Remove the internal motor fan and
> replace it
> > > with an external electric one to lower drag.
> They work
> > > better anyway.
>
> Just how hard is it to pull the fan out of an 8"
> ADC? Means
> separating the motor from the tranny. More garage
> time at a
> friend's, not to be done at the apt. I get
> interested, because I
> think I have a fair amount of windage in both the
> motor and the
> transmission when I get up to those high rpms. I
It would be worth it if you turn your motor more
than 2500rpm. Plus it blows most when not needed,
wasting energy at high rpm and little while low rpm
lugging and stopped, where as an electric fan does and
uses much less power while doing a better job.
> > Hi Jerry,
> >
> > Using gearing to reduce the torque needed from the
> motor is a
> good
> > idea for keeping the motor current lower, which
> keeps the
> motor and
> > controller cooler and may improve efficiency a
> bit, but you
> won't
> > significantly reduce battery current this way - it
> just means
> you're
> > doing the gearing more after the motor instead of
> before it (in
> the
> > controller).
As long as it reduces amps, stress is reduced. It's
driving in first or second instead or 2 and 3rd.
Find a speed where you can drive in 2nd and third
and find a flat road. Looking at your amp meter, shift
from 2 to 3rd at the same speed and compare the
battery amps.
Or find a hill, go up it at the same speed in 1st,
2nd, 3rd if possible, check the amps, which is less?
> Definitely, no more weight! I have looked at
> putting two 6V'ers
> behind the front seats in the foot wells, anchored
> down in their
> own cases, on a temporary basis, for 108V, if I
> wanted to play
> range games for rallies (on a healthy pack that
> would probably
> get me about 80-90 miles) before pulling out of a
> stoplight
> created too much sag (end the run!). But 16 of
> these 6V'ers is
> all I'm willing to carry on a long-term basis. I've
> met people
> who had 26, I think it was, in a VW Rabbit -type
> platform
> (Scirocco or some such). Ouch, ouch, ouch, oh that
> makes my back
> hurt just thinking about it!!
Does to me too! I like lower voltages and lighter,
lower cost EV's. Your 96vdc is enough if you don't
need extreme range. A 50-60 mile working range is
enough for most EV's.
I'm working on a enclosed aero trike with 72-96vdc
batt pack on a 36v, 67 amp, 2.2 hp, 8,000 rated RPM,
golf cart transaxle.
Rather than more batts, I'd put in a generator for
unlimited range and keep battery costs down, not waste
time waitng for a charge, looking for a plug when
inconvienent. It also allows an EV to completely
replace an ICE car. It only needs to weigh 80-120 or
so lbs, less than 2 batts.
And could be run while going up long hills,
mountains, relieving batt stress some.
>
> >
> > This is where AGMs or Nicads really start to look
> like a good
> idea..
Only starting ni-cads and good AGM's. Regular
ni-cads won't do over 250 amps a lot without damage.
> Weight... Well, each one of my seats in the Rabbit,
> if I recall,
> is 33lbs. I've pulled out the passenger one on
> occasion. Do
> they make lighter seats? I'd sure like to upgrade
Pep Boy's have some on sale this week for $79,
probably 1/2 of your seats weight. Better looking,
side support too probably. Summit Racing had some for
$39 without covers.
> to 3-point
> seatbelts from the 2-point kneebar setup I have now
> (standard on
> many 80s Rabbits). I think there is a bolt hole low
> down on the
> pillar for an anchor there. This is probably
> racing/perf shop
> stuff.
>
> Lexan windows - how much weight savings there? And
50 lbs or more for sides and rear.
> what about
> those 8-lb wheels for the EV1? I believe my steel
> 5" rims are
> 15lbs apiece (would have to check the logbook), so
> there would be
> a 4*7lb drop of 28lbs. Is there much weight savings
> with
> aluminum wheels?
No, some alum even weigh more than steel wheels!!!
Take a scale with you to buy, I did.
>
> Aluminum fenders and hood - hey more bodywork!
Or fiberglass, cheaper by far, probably lighter.
>
> But then there is that insipid brake drag for front
> disc brakes.
> Jack the front of the car up, grab the tire and give
> it a hard
> spin with both hands - mine will stop before one
> revolution is
> complete. So I've read the EVDL brake threads with
> interest...
Time to rebuild those cylinders, replace
wheelbearing or true the disc.
>
> At least it goes and gets me around... The mods
> will come very
> slowly...
>
If you wait for perfection, you'll never get
anything done! One mod at a time is a good way to go.
jerry dycus
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Martin K wrote:
> I've been out of the loop here, but what if you had a system like
> I described a few days back. It would have a PFC front-end (not
> necessarily a "PFC-30" or -50 as everyone knows here) distributing
> a high voltage DC bus to individual flyback chargers that could
> charge 1 or two batteries at a time? The flyback chargers could be
> made relatively inexpensive, given that a flyback only requires
> one magnetic component, one PWM control, one transistor, a cheap
> optical feedback. I probably haven't been the first person to think
> of this, but I haven't read anything about it.
Great minds think alike! This is exactly what the Tango charger does.
There is a non-isolated PFC front end that converts the AC line voltage
into high voltage DC. Then each battery has its own 200w isolated
flyback battery charger.
The trick is getting the individual chargers that are small, efficient,
and reliable enough. We used Vicor Batmods for these for the prototypes,
to side-step the design issues of designing a good enough flyback
ourselves.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
> Am I reading your schematic correctly, that the value of the resistors
> should be pack voltage divided by 20? That would make them 8 ohms for
> my 160-volt nominal pack, which sounds too small to me?
That's pack voltage divided by 20ma; 20ma is 20 milliamps = 0.02 amps.
Thus, 160v/0.02 = 8000 ohms.
The value is not critical; it mainly affects LED brightness. Just be
sure both are the same within 1%. You can use a trimpot on one side to
manually adjust them to be identical values.
Also check the power dissipation. Each resistor has half your pack
voltage across it. Power = V^2 / R = 80^2 / 8000 = 6400/8000 = 0.8
watts. Thus, you have to use at least a 1 watt resistor; a 2 watt
resistor is preferable.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Using gearing to reduce the torque needed from the motor is a good
idea for keeping the motor current lower, which keeps the motor and
controller cooler and may improve efficiency a bit, but you won't
significantly reduce battery current this way - it just means you're
doing the gearing more after the motor instead of before it (in the
controller).
"it just means you're doing the gearing more after the motor instead of
before it (in the controller)."
This would seem so but...not using a geared transmission to multiply
torque is like putting an oversized 400Hp engine, linked with a slip clutch,
straight to a drive shaft, then to the wheels, into a 100Hp car just to get
the
original first gear acceleration and hill climbing abilities...it is a
brute-force
method which is inefficient.
Here is an experiment you can try which will demonstrate what I mean.
First off...a series motor and a human are both high torque devises
which can start from a stop and have similar torque curves. Now,
try starting on the side of a 10% grade hill, in the highest gear, on your
favorite bicycle, and pedal up the hill. You'll have to exert a hell of a
lot
of energy and you'll be lucky if you get going at all. If you do get going
you might be lucky to get up to 5 mph and I bet you will tire quickly.
Now shift to the lowest gear which will allow you to attain the same
speed you were able to attain when you tried this test in the highest gear.
I bet you can go faster and further when you match the proper gear to
the load.
Now on cars...if the drivetrain was such that the car could operate in it's
highest gear and maximum motor rpm, at your maximum desired speed
(ex. 5th gear, motor at 5,000rpm, speed 60mph), then you current limit
the controller at whatever it would draw under this condition
(ex 100 amps at 96vdc). Most 4 or 5 speed transmissions have around
a 4 to 1 or 5 to 1 ratio between 1st and their highest gear. Now with
your 100 amp current limited controller you use the torque multiplying
effects of the transmission. In first gear you will have the same maximum
acceleration of someone else using no transmission but you are drawing
100 amps and they are drawing 400 to 500 amps. Sure they will have
this first gear acceleration feel almost all the way up to 60mph but you
have a much higher system efficiency which should net you a 75 to 125
mile range vs 30 to 50 mile range. Also, you can climb just as steep or
steeper hills with less heating (I^2R losses) and less component stresses
(increased reliability).
Tim
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If someone has 17 batteries, how many relays are required and how much do
they cost?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 2:36 AM
Subject: Re modular chargers
> I have thought of a third option. It starts with numbering all the
> batteries and laying them out on the floor before installation and
> setting themn up for a charge.
> this can be done in vehicle if moving batteries around isn't to much
> hassle and may give better results.
> a control board with isolalation relays (or transistors) applies charger
> to whole pack during bulk phase.
> a scanning voltmeter monitors the progress and causes a switch to
> equalization phase
> when the first battery is equalized the relays split the pack into two
> halfs from 1 to battery-1 and from battery+1 to n(n= number of
batteries)
> the charger is set to number of batteries * equalization voltage(the
> fun part) and charges each half string seperatly
> a recursive descent divides each sub pack in to two until the charger is
> charging 1 battery at a time until completion.
>
> Now the benifit of all this extra hardware:
> the batteries were numbered and the time spent on each battery was
> tabulated. The batteries are sorted from largest capacity to smallest
> capacity neg most to positive most position in the pack. The batteries
> at the top of the pack finish first and the system charges 1 less
> battery until done making for less overall time to equalize.
>
> The only benifit over regulators is charging speed and 1 central box for
> lots of batteries. in systems with 20+batteries this may prove more cost
> effective?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tuesday 30 November 2004 07:48, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> For what ?
For gear boxes or transmissions. Something that can handle a couple of hundred
ft lb of torque.
--
Peace can only come as a natural consequence
of universal enlightenment. -Dr. Nikola Tesla
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>Optima Yellow tops are as good as they ever were.
>They still do a very good job for fast perky EVs.
>We have found that Exide Orbotal XCD34s are better
>for all out drag racing.
>But.. I would still do a EV with Yts, it's just that
>I would have to pay
>list for them right now.
>
>Yellow tops are still the gold Standard for heavy
>street racing and high
>power affordable EVs.
>Light powerfull and clean.
I'm glad to hear this. All out drag racing and record
breaking isn't necessarily my goal, but the faster I can go
within the range I want(30 miles highway to 80% DoD at ~ 200
wh/mile consumption or less), the better. With a 1,000 amp
Zilla, 900 pounds of lead, ADC 9'', and a total conversion
weight including driver of < 2,600 pounds, low 15s or faster
in the 1/4 mile seems to be doable, although faster is
better. Maybe even high 14s.
Rich Rudman wrote:
>Wait a minute..
>The Orbitals that I have have almost the EXACT same
>capcity as Optima
>Yellow tops.
>For all but the serious die hards the two batteries
>are the same!!
>In Fact the Orbs have a little MORE capacity than
>the Yts.
>Yts new made about .28 Kw on a 1500 watt load. The
>Orbs make .30Kwhr
>I yanked 3.6 kw from 12 last night. And turned
>around and stuffed 13,000
>watts of charge into them. Note that this was a 12
>series string pack, and
>ALL were not at the same DOD. One was at 10 volts so
>I terminated that draw
>down cycle. As the pack gets better equalized, I
>hope to get more from all
>of them. As well as testing the charger's software,
>and the saftey BMS, I am
>also finding out how much effort is needed to
>equalize the pack. I have not
>given up on any single battery.
That clarifies some things, but then raises other questions.
Any idea how many wh Optimas would deliver at a 500 watt
load and how many wh Orbitals would deliver at 500 watt
load? 1500 watts is a lot more than I'd be taking out of
them just to cruise on the highway! The Orbitals have a
lower Peukert's exponent, meaning if their capacity at a
high 1500 watt load is the same as Optimas, then Optimas
might have more deliverable wh than the Orbitals at the
lower load I'd be using?
I've come across conflicting data through the archives and
through descriptions of conversions that have used either
Optimas or Orbitals, and that has lead to confusion.
For example, California Poppy, using 20 Orbitals, has 22
miles range at 60 MPH to 100% DoD, according to an email
Otmar sent me. He consumes about 240 wh/mile at that speed,
which would equate to 5.3 kWh on board. 240 wh/mile equates
to using 14.4 kW to maintain that speed, which would be a
720 watt load per battery. He's using a lighter load and
getting about 12% less capacity than you are. I can think of
a few things leading to this discrepancy, one of them being
that his pack might have fewer cycles than yours on it and
thus hasn't attained as much capacity, or one of his
batteries might have an exceptionally low capacity. With
Optimas, he would have expected a 45 mile range to 100% DoD
at 65 MPH, assuming a 170 wh/mile consumption(That low
consumption didn't happen, as is obvious, due to everything
associated with the twin motor setup) and 240V of Optima YTs
on board, which looks tobe a huge discrepancy compared to
the data you provided on the YTs, but again a lighter load
may make all the difference in the world with the Peukert's
effect taken into account.
According to Bill Dube's posts I've been reading in the
archives from back in 1998, his 'Wabbit' got about 35-40
miles highway(60-70 MPH) to 100% DoD, consuming
approximately 175 wh/mile at said speed, using a 192V pack.
This equates to about 380-440 wh per Optima, which is also a
large discrepancy to your data, having 50% more capacity.
But again, the discrepancies of how many times the pack has
been cycled, and the fact that he'd only been using 10.5 kW
of power, or a 660 watt load per Optima, to keep his car
going could possibly account for the differences.
Then of course, there is AC Propulsion, which claimed 180
wh/mile on its TZero at 60 MPH speeds, with 336V of Optimas
and 80-100 miles range at that speed. That would equate to
10.8 kW to keep the car moving at that speed, and about 390
watt load per Optima, for about 400-500 wh per Optima on
board. Of course, that range figure may or may not have been
marketing BS on AC Propulsion's part, but I'm sure the
figure has been well scrutinized on this list and the list
members seem to have accepted it as real.
Also from the archives, was a statement by Marc Kohler that
may or may not be true, on the YTs pertaining to Bill
Dube’s EV. He mentioned that 16 YTs were good for 7.5-8.5
kWh, with no source listed, however. I’m curious as to
where that may have came from, as some conversions with YTs
appear to be exhibiting these figures, but this is based on
claims from the conversion owner, and not hard data. The
conversions I have found using Orbitals, however, seem to
show disappointing capacities in contrast. Which is also
contradicting your data, with various factors that may or
may not account for the discrepancy.
I trust your data over claims though, as unlike claims, it
is actually measured and can be studied. I want to take the
right steps when building my EV. I need to know what to
expect. Do those figures I listed on those conversions seem
at all correct with the discrepancies listed, or are those
exceptional cases that might happen in the best possible
conditions, or are they exaggerations? I realize both the
Orbitals and Optimas you tested were probably nowhere near
their peak capacity they'd develop if cycled correctly, and
that at a load 1/3 of that which you used, they may have
drastically different capacities. Does this seem at all
right?
If 30 miles highway to 80% DoD is not doable with either
Orbitals or Exides in a 240V string, with about 500 watts
load on each battery, I'd like to know. I've gotten the
typical 'can' and 'cannot' answers, but I'd love to figure
out what I'm jumping into before I plunk down some serious
cash(~$10k give or take a few grand) on this conversion.
I'm glad to hear about your experiences building that fast
charger. I'm currently torn between buying the PFC50, but
not really having many places where I could use its full
potential, or saving a significant amount of cash and using
a PFC20 instead. And here you are, looking at building a
monster PFC150 for offboard charging, just around the
corner.
Thanks for all your help.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am not trying to be hard to get along with,
but a little more infro would help ?
ford, chev ,mopar , vw ,custom ??
I drive a vw rabbit. After my third transmission ,I know it can
handle 400 ft lb.(measured on a dyno).There are a lot of places to get gears.
Jegs or Summit or junk yard or transmission rebuild shops.
I have a box in my garge of vw gears but they wouldn't help most people on this
list.
Do you have a car in mind ?
Bob Salem
> On Tuesday 30 November 2004 07:48, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > For what ?
>
> For gear boxes or transmissions. Something that can handle a couple of
> hundred
> ft lb of torque.
>
>
> --
> Peace can only come as a natural consequence
> of universal enlightenment. -Dr. Nikola Tesla
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for posting your research. The best comparison would be the
same vehicle that has tried both kinds of batteries. Haven't some of
the Sparrow folks tried both? It would be a good data point. What was
CA Poppy's range with Optimas vs. Orbitals? Also, the drag racers may
not be the best range data point, pulling 2000 amps from the
batteries might do bad things for your range, and their cars are
optimized for speed more than efficiency.
A lead-acid EV1 could do over 100 miles at highway speeds if driven
carefully, and I easily got 60-70 miles per charge when I rented them
(included lots of acceleration tests :) ). The Tzero probably has a
bit worse aero, but is lighter, so I could believe it would do 100
miles if driven carefully.
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >Optima Yellow tops are as good as they ever were.
> >They still do a very good job for fast perky EVs.
> >We have found that Exide Orbotal XCD34s are better
> >for all out drag racing.
> >But.. I would still do a EV with Yts, it's just that
> >I would have to pay
> >list for them right now.
> >
> >Yellow tops are still the gold Standard for heavy
> >street racing and high
> >power affordable EVs.
> >Light powerfull and clean.
>
> I'm glad to hear this. All out drag racing and record
> breaking isn't necessarily my goal, but the faster I can go
> within the range I want(30 miles highway to 80% DoD at ~ 200
> wh/mile consumption or less), the better. With a 1,000 amp
> Zilla, 900 pounds of lead, ADC 9'', and a total conversion
> weight including driver of < 2,600 pounds, low 15s or faster
> in the 1/4 mile seems to be doable, although faster is
> better. Maybe even high 14s.
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >Wait a minute..
> >The Orbitals that I have have almost the EXACT same
> >capcity as Optima
> >Yellow tops.
> >For all but the serious die hards the two batteries
> >are the same!!
> >In Fact the Orbs have a little MORE capacity than
> >the Yts.
> >Yts new made about .28 Kw on a 1500 watt load. The
> >Orbs make .30Kwhr
> >I yanked 3.6 kw from 12 last night. And turned
> >around and stuffed 13,000
> >watts of charge into them. Note that this was a 12
> >series string pack, and
> >ALL were not at the same DOD. One was at 10 volts so
> >I terminated that draw
> >down cycle. As the pack gets better equalized, I
> >hope to get more from all
> >of them. As well as testing the charger's software,
> >and the saftey BMS, I am
> >also finding out how much effort is needed to
> >equalize the pack. I have not
> >given up on any single battery.
>
> That clarifies some things, but then raises other questions.
>
> Any idea how many wh Optimas would deliver at a 500 watt
> load and how many wh Orbitals would deliver at 500 watt
> load? 1500 watts is a lot more than I'd be taking out of
> them just to cruise on the highway! The Orbitals have a
> lower Peukert's exponent, meaning if their capacity at a
> high 1500 watt load is the same as Optimas, then Optimas
> might have more deliverable wh than the Orbitals at the
> lower load I'd be using?
>
> I've come across conflicting data through the archives and
> through descriptions of conversions that have used either
> Optimas or Orbitals, and that has lead to confusion.
>
> For example, California Poppy, using 20 Orbitals, has 22
> miles range at 60 MPH to 100% DoD, according to an email
> Otmar sent me. He consumes about 240 wh/mile at that speed,
> which would equate to 5.3 kWh on board. 240 wh/mile equates
> to using 14.4 kW to maintain that speed, which would be a
> 720 watt load per battery. He's using a lighter load and
> getting about 12% less capacity than you are. I can think of
> a few things leading to this discrepancy, one of them being
> that his pack might have fewer cycles than yours on it and
> thus hasn't attained as much capacity, or one of his
> batteries might have an exceptionally low capacity. With
> Optimas, he would have expected a 45 mile range to 100% DoD
> at 65 MPH, assuming a 170 wh/mile consumption(That low
> consumption didn't happen, as is obvious, due to everything
> associated with the twin motor setup) and 240V of Optima YTs
> on board, which looks tobe a huge discrepancy compared to
> the data you provided on the YTs, but again a lighter load
> may make all the difference in the world with the Peukert's
> effect taken into account.
>
> According to Bill Dube's posts I've been reading in the
> archives from back in 1998, his 'Wabbit' got about 35-40
> miles highway(60-70 MPH) to 100% DoD, consuming
> approximately 175 wh/mile at said speed, using a 192V pack.
> This equates to about 380-440 wh per Optima, which is also a
> large discrepancy to your data, having 50% more capacity.
> But again, the discrepancies of how many times the pack has
> been cycled, and the fact that he'd only been using 10.5 kW
> of power, or a 660 watt load per Optima, to keep his car
> going could possibly account for the differences.
>
> Then of course, there is AC Propulsion, which claimed 180
> wh/mile on its TZero at 60 MPH speeds, with 336V of Optimas
> and 80-100 miles range at that speed. That would equate to
> 10.8 kW to keep the car moving at that speed, and about 390
> watt load per Optima, for about 400-500 wh per Optima on
> board. Of course, that range figure may or may not have been
> marketing BS on AC Propulsion's part, but I'm sure the
> figure has been well scrutinized on this list and the list
> members seem to have accepted it as real.
> Also from the archives, was a statement by Marc Kohler that
> may or may not be true, on the YTs pertaining to Bill
> Dube’s EV. He mentioned that 16 YTs were good for 7.5-8.5
> kWh, with no source listed, however. I’m curious as to
> where that may have came from, as some conversions with YTs
> appear to be exhibiting these figures, but this is based on
> claims from the conversion owner, and not hard data. The
> conversions I have found using Orbitals, however, seem to
> show disappointing capacities in contrast. Which is also
> contradicting your data, with various factors that may or
> may not account for the discrepancy.
>
> I trust your data over claims though, as unlike claims, it
> is actually measured and can be studied. I want to take the
> right steps when building my EV. I need to know what to
> expect. Do those figures I listed on those conversions seem
> at all correct with the discrepancies listed, or are those
> exceptional cases that might happen in the best possible
> conditions, or are they exaggerations? I realize both the
> Orbitals and Optimas you tested were probably nowhere near
> their peak capacity they'd develop if cycled correctly, and
> that at a load 1/3 of that which you used, they may have
> drastically different capacities. Does this seem at all
> right?
>
> If 30 miles highway to 80% DoD is not doable with either
> Orbitals or Exides in a 240V string, with about 500 watts
> load on each battery, I'd like to know. I've gotten the
> typical 'can' and 'cannot' answers, but I'd love to figure
> out what I'm jumping into before I plunk down some serious
> cash(~$10k give or take a few grand) on this conversion.
>
> I'm glad to hear about your experiences building that fast
> charger. I'm currently torn between buying the PFC50, but
> not really having many places where I could use its full
> potential, or saving a significant amount of cash and using
> a PFC20 instead. And here you are, looking at building a
> monster PFC150 for offboard charging, just around the
> corner.
>
> Thanks for all your help.
>
>
=====
__________________________________
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Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
Why not use starting ni-cads like the BB6600?
They will put out the power, almost no
peurkert effect, no batt regs needed, costs are the
same and the ni-cads would last 20+ yrs.
And they weight 30% less than AGM's in single
cells, immune to cold, can charge full power until
full and keeps full voltage until 10% from empty.
Or use Trojan 27TMH's for a longer range of
50% with a weight increase of 25%. You would still get
good low end 1,000 motor amp take-offs even with a
350-450 batt amp limit. Again cheaper to buy at $58
each, to charge as no batt regs needed and lower cost
chargers can be used.
Unless you need them for racing, AGM's lack
of range for the weight, should preclude them from
most EV's.
Low 15's should be doable with either of these
non AGM options. Faster with the ni-cads though almost
matching AGM's. At lower states of charge like 40%
and/or the cold, ni-cads have a stiffer voltage,
deliver more amps than those AGM's!
And the stiff voltage will help top 1/4 mile
speed. Wacking off 225lbs helps too. Or add more cells
to the same weight and beat AGM's all around!!!
HTH's,
jerry dycus
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >Yellow tops are still the gold Standard for heavy
> >street racing and high
> >power affordable EVs.
> >Light powerfull and clean.
>
> I'm glad to hear this. All out drag racing and
> record
> breaking isn't necessarily my goal, but the faster I
> can go
> within the range I want(30 miles highway to 80% DoD
> at ~ 200
> wh/mile consumption or less), the better. With a
> 1,000 amp
> Zilla, 900 pounds of lead, ADC 9'', and a total
> conversion
> weight including driver of < 2,600 pounds, low 15s
> or faster
> in the 1/4 mile seems to be doable, although faster
> is
> better. Maybe even high 14s.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where would I go to find more information about the nicads mentioned here?
A Google search for "BB6600 nickel cadmium" and "BB6600 nicad" yields zero
hits, and "BB6600 battery" yields only one hit, to an earlier archived
post to this list. Of course, "BB6600" yields all kinds of hits, none are
relevant.
--chris
jerry dycus said:
> Hi John and All,
> Why not use starting ni-cads like the BB6600?
>
> They will put out the power, almost no
> peurkert effect, no batt regs needed, costs are the
> same and the ni-cads would last 20+ yrs.
> And they weight 30% less than AGM's in single
> cells, immune to cold, can charge full power until
> full and keeps full voltage until 10% from empty.
> Or use Trojan 27TMH's for a longer range of
> 50% with a weight increase of 25%. You would still get
> good low end 1,000 motor amp take-offs even with a
> 350-450 batt amp limit. Again cheaper to buy at $58
> each, to charge as no batt regs needed and lower cost
> chargers can be used.
> Unless you need them for racing, AGM's lack
> of range for the weight, should preclude them from
> most EV's.
> Low 15's should be doable with either of these
> non AGM options. Faster with the ni-cads though almost
> matching AGM's. At lower states of charge like 40%
> and/or the cold, ni-cads have a stiffer voltage,
> deliver more amps than those AGM's!
> And the stiff voltage will help top 1/4 mile
> speed. Wacking off 225lbs helps too. Or add more cells
> to the same weight and beat AGM's all around!!!
> HTH's,
> jerry dycus
>
> --- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
>> >Yellow tops are still the gold Standard for heavy
>> >street racing and high
>> >power affordable EVs.
>> >Light powerfull and clean.
>>
>> I'm glad to hear this. All out drag racing and
>> record
>> breaking isn't necessarily my goal, but the faster I
>> can go
>> within the range I want(30 miles highway to 80% DoD
>> at ~ 200
>> wh/mile consumption or less), the better. With a
>> 1,000 amp
>> Zilla, 900 pounds of lead, ADC 9'', and a total
>> conversion
>> weight including driver of < 2,600 pounds, low 15s
>> or faster
>> in the 1/4 mile seems to be doable, although faster
>> is
>> better. Maybe even high 14s.
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
--- End Message ---
