EV Digest 3947
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EE Job Posting
by "Keith Richtman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Li-Ion Batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Lectra Fuse, was: Re: Make your own fuse.
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) kWH challenge
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: other options, Re: Sealed PbA battery Options
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Well to wheel
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Lifespan of Cold Batteries
by "Jamie Marshall \(GAMES\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery amps to Motor amps
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) I love my Bill Dube crimper
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Motorcycle emergency disconnect.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Lectra Fuse, was: Re: Make your own fuse.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Lectra blows homemade fuse
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Battery amps to Motor amps
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: kWh/mile challenge
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Make your own fuse.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Make your own fuse.
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Lectra Fuse, was: Re: Make your own fuse.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Spare Tires
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) 'Tis the Season for Power Funk at Skylark
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) WaveCrest Labs
by "Lou Lamoureux" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Modular Charger
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) test
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: kWh/mile challenge
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: test
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Position available at a company I am loosely affiliated with that may
interest the EE types on the list. There is an ME opening as well, but I
don't have the description yet.
Keith
----------------------------------------------
Position for Electrical Engineer
Southwest Windpower's research & development department is seeking a
skilled, sharp and creative electronics engineer. Must have significant
demonstrated experience in design, building, and testing of power electronic
systems, circuit board design & layout, and field testing. The successful
candidate will be resourceful, independent, thorough, self-motivated, team-
and goal-oriented. Design for manufacturing experience, RF, data acquisition
aerodynamics/aeroacoustics, CAD experience, electromechanics helpful. Some
travel. B.S. degree or equivalent experience required. Wage commensurate to
degree and experience. Contact :
Jean-Guillaume Lonjaret
Southwest Windpower, inc.
2 131 N. 1st st.
Flagstaff, AZ 86 004 - 4 238
tel.: 928 779 9463 ext. 220
fax: 928 779 1485
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Valence Li-ion batteries were designed to be "very safe".
> Because of that, they have a lower Wh/kg and are more
> expensive that TS batteries.
Valence batteries also include cell monitoring/management hardware built
right into each battery.
<http://www.valence.com/ucharge.asp>
There a probably many factors contributing to the higher cost of the
Valence units, not least of which will be economies of scale (i.e. I
would expect the Valence prices to come down somewhat as production
volume increases).
I was very excited to see the Valence U-Charge batteries (well, cases
anyway ;^) at EVS-20: their U1 model is rated 46Ah, and they also make
G24 and G27 sizes. This means a drop in replacement for an Optima YT
that could double or triple the usable capacity of my EV's pack!
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have some of those fuses in my supply that I will
sell, I think 300A and 400A.
Let me know if you're interested.
Rod
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 06:50 AM 6/12/04 -0800, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >2 3/8" or 60mm fuse length this is center bolt to
> center bolt. The fuse
> >is flat with open ends (one at a 90� angle for
> insertion) and fits under
> >the top of the Lectra frame.
>
> Hi Lawrence
>
> Sort of like this?
>
> |<-----60mm------->|
> Top view
> _____________________ _
> [____ | | | | |
> ____)| | |_| |
> [_____|___________|_______|
>
> Side view
> ___________
> ======|___________|========
>
> I'd hazard a guess that it's not an HRC fuse and
> that the following
> description fits the fuse (apart from the current
> rating):
> FUSE, FORK LIFT TRUCK 355A;
> Current, fuse rating: 355A;
> Approval Bodies: DIN43560/1;
> Centres, fixing: 60mm;
> Depth, external: 10mm;
> Diameter, fixing hole: 11mm;
> Length / Height, external: 82mm;
> Length, body: 32mm;
> Material, case: Ceramic;
> Voltage rating, DC: 80V;
> Width, external: 22mm
> If you go to http://au.farnell.com/ and in the
> search box stick 607721 you
> will see this fuse (price is in australian dollars).
> If so, it should't be
> too hard to find locally to you - Farnell is the
> same company as Newark,
> but you should be able to find it at a better price
> if you shop around.
>
> Regards
>
> James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Although it is easier and more accurate to have people start at the same
point, follow the same route the information gathered is less varied and
more of a hassle to get.
It might be interedting to collect the various effiency car route driver
info for potential converters to review.
So maybe we use the honour sytem and peoples own emeter and odometer at
every meeting, then pick a day or two each year to have the Rally/finals
awards to be given at xmas for most miles, best overall efiency and the
rally event.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No guarantees, but a search on the National Stocking Number (NSN)
yields 13.0Ah per fbodaily.com
$80,000 in nicads, huh?
Seth
On Dec 6, 2004, at 5:51 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Wow! short notice!
I live close enough (Baltimore, MD-150 miles) that I could help
facilitating this if someone on the list makes the purchase. I
couldn't store 6 pallets of batteries, but I'd be interested in buying
some if anyone gets the lot.
How did you find this, I've had no luck at all trying to navigate the
gov't surplus web sites?
Mike Shipway
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Humphrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 6, 2004 08:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
Sorry for the late notice....
Gov't surplus auction
7800 lbs of SAFT Aircraft starting NiCads - unused, mftd 11/95.
Located in Richmond Va.
Bids must be in by 0800 Eastern, 7 Dec. Can bid electronically.
See item 21 in http://www.drms.dla.mil/catalog/pdf/33-5006.pdf
I have no further information....
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!"
--Henry Ford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An hour north of Boston, MA.
Lots of nibbles, but no one has shown up with a truck and cash yet.
Once you get them you will know that you want the interconnects I also
have for sale.
Seth
On Dec 2, 2004, at 5:51 PM, Paul G wrote:
Me! I have 100 for sale. Berube had some for sale last year. Or
www.sg-photo.com.
Seth
Seth, where are you located? I have thought about 104 of them in my
Buggy (124.8v nominal, 2 sets of 4 by 13 cells).
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think they are taking the worst scenario for electric production not
the average and comparing to the least(and unobtainable , we are already
near the max of or natural gas, what would we do if sudenly everyones
car needed it)
When you use the average for eletrical production and you use the
average of a mix of electrolosis and natural gas for the hydrogen the
numbers reverse.
I had give a speech on this subject last year some of my references are here
http://www.evuk.co.uk/EAVES_BEV_VS_FCV%20040703.pdf
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/fchv/fchv12.html
http://washingtontimes.com/commentary/20030722-093718-6082r.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is my first winter with a Zilla in my Sparrow. I'm noticing that
the "low battery voltage" limit is kicking in at the end of my commute.
(I have it set to 140v, or 10.76v per battery). I'm sure that I was
getting this kind of sag last year as well, just never noticed because
the controller didn't back off of draw to protect the batteries as the
Zilla is. (Go Zilla!).
I know the sag isn't worse than last year because I put in a new pack
when I got the Zilla. If it matters I also just put in regs. (Ed Ang's)
And I'm not really limited by the range. It only lowers my top power by
a bit, and only at the end of my commute. (About 18ah)
My question is this: Am I taking more life out of my batteries (optima
yellow tops) by taking them this low in the cold? Put differently, does
pulling the same number of amp hours out of the pack wear the batteries
down faster when it's cold than when it's not?
I know that I can heat them up to get better range in the winter, but
will I get extended life?
-Jamie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last time I actually worked on a fuel cell (2002), they peaked at 60%
from H2 gas in to electrons out. And that easily sagged into the 40's.
Thats just the gas, no compression, no manufacture, no power conversion
losses from the DC-DC because fuel cells sag like hell. Or the
controller efficiency or motor efficiency.
Seth
On Dec 6, 2004, at 3:15 PM, Tim Humphrey wrote:
Here's my take on it.
They took the whole conversion cost of electricity for the EV from
well to
car to including refining, generation, and delivery, assuming only
liquid
fuels were used to produce the electricity, not using the US National
average mix.
AND they took the compression cost for Hydrogen, assuming the hydrogen
already exists and only has to be compressed, completely overlooking
the
refining process to extract the hydrogen and then it's subsequent
delivery.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
Ford
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
Behalf Of Nick Austin
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 12:12 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs
Hello,
I visited the California Fuel Cell Partnership the other day.
While I was there, I asked about the Well-to-wheel efficiency of BEVs
vs
FCEVs. In response they gave me a handout from Hyundai showing A FCEV
above
BEVs in terms of efficiency.
Is this correct? I always thought it was the other way around.
I scanned the hand out, and made it available here:
http://smartaustin.com.nyud.net:8090/~nick/hyundai_fcv_facts.jpeg
Can somebody take a look this and see if you can find the flaw in
there
logic (or mine) :)
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick,
Something is wrong. I think you've got a tranny or
a bent motor shaft problem. Or perhaps that big rig
is just like driving a parachute down the road with
the big tires. WHen the motor is out of gear, is it
noisy at all?
People on the list often have 100 amp draws at
30-35 mph, and 200-250A draws between 60-65. There
should be a fairly linear (well exponential, actually)
smooth curve as you increase speed. Yours takes a
dip, then increases again.
Even considering the fat SUV tires on your rig
(Jeep, if I recall?) and the lack of aerodynamics, I
just can't see a reason.
To the point, pulse-coasting, with 50-100A draws
keeps the motor cool. If you're slurping down 200A
constant, the motor will really heat up, and your
batteries are drawn down in minutes.
If it was me, I'd pull it and put it into a car.
Wish I had a more hopeful outlook, but nothing else
that I can see seems to fit...
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Bill Dube crimper is working good.
http://www.evsource.com/conversion/good_crimp.jpg
Bill's site has pretty good info. on making one. If he doesn't mind,
I'll put some additional instructions with detailed pictures on my site
(eventually). Top priority now: getting the 200sx driving. IT'S CLOSE!
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark had a great idea for a motorcycle quick disconnect. Use the clutch
cable. http://www.geocities.com/oaksofclearcreek/emergency_disconnect.htm
Seems like a good use for a lever that would normally be taken off on a one
speed motorcycle or scooter. Lawrence Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hope this looks better. But basically yes. Is this a standard fuse?
Lawrence Rhodes.....
Top view
____________________ _
[____ | | | |
____)| |__|_| [_____|___________|_______|
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 1:26 PM
Subject: Lectra Fuse, was: Re: Make your own fuse.
At 06:50 AM 6/12/04 -0800, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
2 3/8" or 60mm fuse length this is center bolt to center bolt. The fuse
is flat with open ends (one at a 90� angle for insertion) and fits under
the top of the Lectra frame.
Hi Lawrence
Sort of like this?
|<-----60mm------->|
Top view
____________________ _
[____ | | | |
____)| |__|_| [_____|___________|_______|
Side view
___________
======|___________|========
I'd hazard a guess that it's not an HRC fuse and that the following
description fits the fuse (apart from the current rating):
FUSE, FORK LIFT TRUCK 355A;
Current, fuse rating: 355A;
Approval Bodies: DIN43560/1;
Centres, fixing: 60mm;
Depth, external: 10mm;
Diameter, fixing hole: 11mm;
Length / Height, external: 82mm;
Length, body: 32mm;
Material, case: Ceramic;
Voltage rating, DC: 80V;
Width, external: 22mm
If you go to http://au.farnell.com/ and in the search box stick 607721 you
will see this fuse (price is in australian dollars). If so, it should't be
too hard to find locally to you - Farnell is the same company as Newark,
but you should be able to find it at a better price if you shop around.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The ETEK started to pull real nice at 25mph up a hill and was just starting
to feel good when nothing. No volt meter. The fuse obviously didn't do the
job. I used the old fuse body and put three strings of solder as the fuse.
Not quite good enough. Lawrence Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Which amperage numbers are you referring to??? All the motor amp figures
I've posted so far were with ONLY the motor spinning. The Jeep was
parked.
> or a bent motor shaft problem.
I too wonder about this. I never could seem to eliminate all of the
vibrations which occur when the motor is spun at higher RPMs, and I know
it is nothing in the transmission -- they were present even when I spun
the motor up with the transmission out of the Jeep. So these remaining
minor vibrations are puzzling as well... and if the motor shaft were
slightly bent, wouldn't that cause the motor to draw excess current?
> WHen the motor is out of gear, is it noisy at all?
Yes, this motor does (IMO) make a lot of noise at the higher RPMs. It
seems to be mostly fan noise, though. Also, while we are talking about
motor noises, mine makes distinct rubbing noises at very slow speeds
(like below 1000 rpm), and also when I turn it by hand. Is this normal
(maybe brush noise?) or something else?
I still have hope that my results with the Jeep are unusual due to a
problem that has not yet been solved. The motor is seeming more and more
suspect to me...
Thanks
-Nick
---------------------------------------------
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 18:21, Bob Bath wrote:
> Nick,
> Something is wrong. I think you've got a tranny or
> a bent motor shaft problem. Or perhaps that big rig
> is just like driving a parachute down the road with
> the big tires. WHen the motor is out of gear, is it
> noisy at all?
> People on the list often have 100 amp draws at
> 30-35 mph, and 200-250A draws between 60-65. There
> should be a fairly linear (well exponential, actually)
> smooth curve as you increase speed. Yours takes a
> dip, then increases again.
> Even considering the fat SUV tires on your rig
> (Jeep, if I recall?) and the lack of aerodynamics, I
> just can't see a reason.
> To the point, pulse-coasting, with 50-100A draws
> keeps the motor cool. If you're slurping down 200A
> constant, the motor will really heat up, and your
> batteries are drawn down in minutes.
> If it was me, I'd pull it and put it into a car.
> Wish I had a more hopeful outlook, but nothing else
> that I can see seems to fit...
>
>
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Furniss wrote:
>
> Lee Hart
> > On your efficiency race, I think you are falling into the trap of making
> > it too complicated. I would suggest going the opposite way; ENCOURAGE
> > creative and outside-the-box solutions!
>
> Now that is what I'm talking about, I want it to be very easy and fun. I
> want club members to see that when they spend more money on T-145 batteries
> to get better range and then put the cheapest tires they can find on there
> car that there moving in the wrong direction. If we don't know what our
> WH/mile is now we won't know if we made the car better or worse when we
> change something.
>
> I was hoping that during the clubs monthly meeting that we could take
> anybody's "street legal" EV for a ride and get a WH/mile reading, and then
> we would have a month to change something like alignment, tires or brakes.
>
> What we have to work with so far is a Fluke 98 DSO with recorder, min, max
> and average readings but it will not do min, max, average in the dual scope
> mode, and I have a e-meter that is not in a car at this time.
Aha. Use the E-meter to gather your KWH data. Put it in a box so you can
easily add it into a car. Reset it at the start, and drive a fixed
known-distance route. That's all you need to calculate KWH/mile.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Is there some where that lists the capacity of copper wire or
> strips and their use as a fuse?
There are such lists under carefully defined conditions; but the fusing
current varies drastically depending on how you mount it. Basically, it
opens when the copper melts. The amount of power it takes to reach the
melting point depends almost entirely on how much cooling it gets.
You'll get one value for a long wire in still air; another value for the
same wire but short enough so heat wicks out via the terminals at each
end; another value if there is any airflow; another if there is any
insulation around it, etc.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone considered using a circuit breaker? Or is this too much energy
for such a device?
David C. Wilker Jr.
USAF (RET)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Make your own fuse.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Is there some where that lists the capacity of copper wire or
strips and their use as a fuse?
There are such lists under carefully defined conditions; but the fusing
current varies drastically depending on how you mount it. Basically, it
opens when the copper melts. The amount of power it takes to reach the
melting point depends almost entirely on how much cooling it gets.
You'll get one value for a long wire in still air; another value for the
same wire but short enough so heat wicks out via the terminals at each
end; another value if there is any airflow; another if there is any
insulation around it, etc.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence and all
I replied to Lawrence off-list but the EarthLink anti-spam quarantined my
message (ar least it told me). So here is my reply to Lawrence:
At 04:43 PM 6/12/04 -0800, you wrote:
Hope this looks better. But basically yes. Is this a standard fuse?
Lawrence Rhodes.....
Yes, standard fuse. 80VDC rated, kA rating is probably low - one or two,
no idea really, but since this is designed for wet cell applications that
is not a problem.
Need to get it from Rod Hower if he's not too far away from you, or a
forklift supply place or similar.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon wrote:
> >> Mike Chancey wrote:
> >> > Okay folks, how many actually care a spare tire on your
EV?
>
> My EV Buggy has never carried a spare (either as an ICE buggy
or as
> an electric one). My VW Pickup conversion (since sold) carries
a full
> size spare on a factory aluminum wheel in the stock location.
>
I don't carry a spare in the EV Rabbit - no place to put it and
extra weight. However, I now carry a Fix-A-Flat can and an
electric tire pump. I didn't have any flats for about 22-23
years of driving, but in the last two to three years, I've had
about five flats. My Goodyear Integrity's, with plenty of tread
on them, have had three or four flats in the approx 5000 miles
and two years I've had them - one for about each tire. It's
almost as if the Integrity's tread catches stuff off the road,
and once caught it doesn't get rid of it. My last flat was about
three weeks ago, when I felt a bump-bump on my way through the
storage facility where I keep my truck, and it turned out to be a
flat piece of metal with a screw stuck in it. It did not flatten
the tire immediately, but when I came back in a couple of days
for the car, the tire was flat. :-(
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our first big gnarly storm rolled in off the Pacific into the
California coast yesterday evening. As I returned home from my
evening job, my EV kept me warm and dry from the rain squalls
lurking outside, the wind buffeting the car frequently. Made it
home, as I do everytime. But power funk issues at Skylark come
to mind - what fun shall we have during this storm?
I usually plug the car in after dinner, since the car shares the
same 20A line that runs through the kitchen (microwave) and goes
out to the utility closet outlet (was the only way to wire it,
folks, that was practical). The car sips electrons from midnight
through the wee hours of the morning from its Zivan K2 charger
hooked up to a 120V NEMA 5-20 outlet in the ceiling of the
carport underneath this building. However, about mid-way through
dinner, just as I was about to steam up some meatloaf in the
microwave, the lights went out, then flashed back on for a short
while and then were out again for about another thirty minutes,
before they came back on for good.
Other power funk we've had at Skylark includes brown-outs (~45V)
in some of the outlets in the apartment, while other outlets had
full voltage. It was this way throughout the complex, and all
the outside lighting was browned out, all the way down the hill.
That freaked people out - what the heck is going on?? When this
happened in December 1995, I remember standing outside on my
deck, watching the wind-driven rain whip through the trees, when
suddenly there were several bright flashes to the northwest that
I thought were down on the main street below (Magnolia). It was
shortly thereafter that the brownout started (I don't know if the
two events were related). I figure that all the buildings in
this complex are on the same step-down transformer (which seems
kinda weird). Each apt has 240V going into it, and I think all
the apts are on the same 240V bus. Some outlets in the
apartments are on one side of neutral, and other outlets on the
opposite side. One side of that transformer must have shorted
out in that wind-driven rain. I recall vaguely that our
brown-out scene happened a second time overnight a few days
later, when I awoke to find my K&W BC-20 that I had back then
plugged into it. The K&W wasn't damaged, just no charging. I
don't know what the Zivan would do, or one of Rich's PFC
chargers. We also had brownouts, on the other side of neutral,
more recently, like a year or two ago. This time, it was ho-hum,
kinda boring, been-there-done-that.
So all that overview brings me to the point of this posting:
what can I do that's reasonably robust and not too expensive to
help protect the EV's charger from this kind of stuff? Since
about the only place I charge is at home overnight, I figured I'd
somehow hook the "whatever it is" into the line, probably in the
utility closet. I have seen zener diode circuits mentioned by
Lee and others for triggering at a certain voltage. What I'd
want to do is dump the line at about 100V with a latching relay,
to be reset by a timer, so that once the power comes back on
wait, say, 5 minutes to avoid the quick on-off cycling of a grid
that's not quite there. Have this contraption drive a
relay/contactor that would carry the main load on the AC line
down to the charger. I suppose one could buy a surge suppressor
with brown-out protection (like the one that protects this
computer till I get it on its dedicated power supply - a sinewave
inverter running on the spare batteries I buy with each pack for
the EV). But I'd like things to turn back on if the grid is
"stable" after five minutes or so - hence the timer, so that the
car is ready to go the next day.
Ideas? I haven't killed a charger yet, but I'd like to have some
ideas to chew on for cheap brownout-funk protection.
Thanks,
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
The Smart Car powered by WaveCrest Labs High Performance Hub Motors is
at our facility in Dulles, along with a "dune buggy" vehicle powered by
4 bicycle hub motors. I am attempting to schedule a time where the EVA
DC members can come and take a look at these vehicles. I should know
more tomorrow, Stay Tuned.
Lou Lamoureux
Mid-Atlantic Regional Sales Manager
Wavecrest Laboratories, LLC
Dulles, Virginia
Cell: 571-426-5474
See how WaveCrest is "Changing the Way the World Moves" by visiting our
Web site: www.WaveCrestlabs.com <http://www.WaveCrestlabs.com> or
www.Tidalforce.com
Consumer Product Safety Commission
[2004] 16 Code of Federal Regulations 1512 - Requirements for Bicycles
Subpart A - Regulations
Section 1512.2 Definitions.
For the purposes of this part:
(a) Bicycle means:
(1) A two-wheeled vehicle having a rear drive wheel that is solely
human-powered;
(2) A two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an
electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.) whose maximum speed on a
paved level surface when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by
an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is one of the best ideas, and is widely used
throughout the inductry. Reliability of whole
system is equal of reliability of one unit, not
many combined.
Hot-swapping of failed unit can be automated quite
easily too.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Once you add more-less smart balancers the reliability problem
of failure of one returns, althoug the bulk charge is done right
and the chances ruining one battery is greatly reduced.
How about you have n+1 modular chargers, with one inactive until there is a
problem, having the system monitor outputs, with capability to hot-swap the
backup unit for a failed charger plus alert the driver that "yes, the pack got
charged, but you have to replace unit #X"?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
With the ammeter in the MOTOR loop, I went for a short drive.
>From a dead start, even in 1st gear, my 400 amp ammeter would peg
instantly, even if I started out extremely slowly. Of course the amps
would come down as the Jeep picked up speed.
Just using 25mph as a test speed, I got the following current readings
while holding the Jeep at 25 MPH on a very flat street:
------------25 MPH--------------
1st gear (~4000RPMs) 160 amps
2nd gear (~2000RPMs) 210 amps
3rd gear (<1800RPMs) 250 amps
I noticed that even slight acceleration would cause the ammeter to peg
in 2nd or 3rd gear. 1st gear was a bit better, but not by much. I could
even peg the meter fairly effortlessly in reverse... my lowest gear.
Someone let me know if this data is helpful towards diagnosing the
problem or not...
Thanks
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
-----------------------------------------------
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 16:21, Nick Viera wrote:
> Hmmm... I sent this e-mail to the list yesterday and it didn't go through??? :
>
> Hi,
>
> Okay, I got the shunt inserted into the motor loop now. I haven't been
> out for a drive yet, but did measure the current on the motor side with
> the car parked.
>
> With the transmission in neutral and the clutch engaged:
> RPM MOTOR Amps
> 1000 65
> 1500 70
> 2000 76
> 2500 74
> 3000 71
> 3500 71
> 4000 74
> 4500 72
>
> With the transmission in neutral and the clutch DIS-engaged:
> RPM MOTOR Amps
> 1000 60
> 2000 62
> 3000 65
> 4000 71
>
> The motor ALWAYS took at least 60 amps to keep it spinning. When I would
> start the motor from a stop, it would pull up to 220 amps until it
> picked up speed. When I would increase it's speed while it was already
> spinning, it would pull 120-180 or so amps.
>
> Does this help diagnose the problem? Hopefully I'll have Motor current
> readings with the motor under load by tomorrow.
>
> Thanks
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> > On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 23:44, Rich Rudman wrote:
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 5:45 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > > How hot does the motor get??
> > > >
> > > > I have noticed that the motor seems to get hot -- in opinion too hot.
> > > > Even after a shorter (~6 mile drive), the motor shaft and both casing
> > > > ends are too hot to touch. I'll try to get an actual temp. reading from
> > > > my multimeter (which has a temp. probe)...
> > > >
> > > > Now that I think about it, I have also noticed sort of a "burning
> > > > brakes" smell coming from the motor after longer (~10+ mile) trips. This
> > > > is especially noticeable after trips which have included hills or
> > > > inclines, which have included me pulling up to 380 amps on the battery
> > > > side. This smell is definitely NOT the front brakes. I've had those
> > > > fixed and they no longer smell. The smell comes straight up from the
> > > > motor. I thought at first that it might be due to the motor still being
> > > > relatively new, but now that I've got 468.4 EV miles on the Jeep (I keep
> > > > a good log), I can't imagine that being the case.
> > > >
> > > > > No load and a good speed should be like 25 to 50 amps...Motor amps,
> > > > > almost nothing battery amps.
> > > >
> > > > I just hooked back up the Tachometer sensor (which works ok when it
> > > > feels like it), and did a little test. With the transmission in neutral,
> > > > the motor pulls the following currents (give or take a few amps):
> > > >
> > > > RPM Current drawn (battery side current)
> > > > 1000 8 amps
> > > > 2000 15 amps
> > > > 3000 20 amps
> > > > 4000 40 amps
> > > >
> > > I'll say 4800 watts to spin up, that's 6.43 Hoursepower to freespin....
> > > Ok NOW we are getting somewheres......
> > >
> > >
> > > > These are BATTERY SIDE current readings, with NO load on the motor
> > > > except for the spinning aluminum flywheel/hub, clutch disc, and pressure
> > > > plate. I'm guessing that this is way too much current being pulled if
> > > > I'm supposed to see no more than 50 motor amps?
> > > >
> > > > I'll try to get my 400 amp shunt in the motor loop this weekend if I
> > > > have some spare cables around here with eyelets on them... otherwise
> > > > I'll have to order some more and wait...
> > > >
> > > > Last questions... If this is a motor problem, I'm assuming it could be
> > > > repaired (at a motor shop)? Are motors like this usually expensive to
> > > > repair?
> > >
> > > Oh oh!
> > > Well yea depending on the problems.
> > > Most of us racers can do a 9" incher rebuild. Shipping is a few hunder
> > > bucks, you can't use UPS because the motor is too heavy.
> > > A motor rebuild shop can help, ones that do fork truck and Golf cart
> > > rebuilds.
> > >
> > > And once you get it out... again.... Many on this list can lead you
> > > through
> > > testing and repair it it's simple bolt and unbolt stuff.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
tap.. tap.. testing , testing. Is this thing on?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm resending this, it didn't go through yesterday.
Lee Hart wrote,
> Aha. Use the E-meter to gather your KWH data. Put it in a box so you can
> easily add it into a car. Reset it at the start, and drive a fixed
> known-distance route. That's all you need to calculate KWH/mile.
Just a few more questions on the e-meter set up, battery capacity
probability won't matter for this setup but what about the peukert exponent,
will that need to be set to battery brand?
I was think of two switch's, turn off the high voltage wire to the meter
first and then turn off the 12 volt power (SVR in box) to the meter before
connecting or disconnecting any wires?
When I let the smoke out of the e-meter will Xantrex fix it and is there
anybody else fixing them?
The trophy will be a chrome plated wheel bearing mounted on a wood pedestal
with the inscription "Best watt hour's per mile"
Richard Furniss
http://lasvegasev.com
Las Vegas, NV
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, It seems to be going in and out. It is like one or two e-mails
come through and then there is nothing for hours...
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
On Tue, 2004-12-07 at 18:52, Mike Chancey wrote:
> tap.. tap.. testing , testing. Is this thing on?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So did someone win this? Any way to find out the winning bid?
Tim Humphrey wrote:
Sorry for the late notice....
Gov't surplus auction
7800 lbs of SAFT Aircraft starting NiCads - unused, mftd 11/95.
Located in Richmond Va.
Bids must be in by 0800 Eastern, 7 Dec. Can bid electronically.
See item 21 in http://www.drms.dla.mil/catalog/pdf/33-5006.pdf
I have no further information....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick, I hate to break this to you, but I really think
you've got to disassemble your motor mount and see
what's going on.
It's not rocket science inside the motor. I'm a
biology graduate, but I found myself replacing a brush
holder several months ago, and advancing (or was it
retarding) the brushes.
Lots of people can repair motors, but if you've got
a series wound, I think you'll find that you'll
diagnose the problem faster than you can take it
apart.
How many seconds does it take to go from freewheel
to a dead stop?
The pegging is the weirdest part in my mind. True,
to overcome inertia and get going requires the most
amps, but pegging it out?
I wish I had more expertise other than experience
(more numbers) to help you out...
best to you,
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> With the ammeter in the MOTOR loop, I went for a
> short drive.
>
> >From a dead start, even in 1st gear, my 400 amp
> ammeter would peg
> instantly, even if I started out extremely slowly.
> Of course the amps
> would come down as the Jeep picked up speed.
>
> Just using 25mph as a test speed, I got the
> following current readings
> while holding the Jeep at 25 MPH on a very flat
> street:
>
> ------------25 MPH--------------
> 1st gear (~4000RPMs) 160 amps
> 2nd gear (~2000RPMs) 210 amps
> 3rd gear (<1800RPMs) 250 amps
>
> I noticed that even slight acceleration would cause
> the ammeter to peg
> in 2nd or 3rd gear. 1st gear was a bit better, but
> not by much. I could
> even peg the meter fairly effortlessly in reverse...
> my lowest gear.
>
> Someone let me know if this data is helpful towards
> diagnosing the
> problem or not...
>
> Thanks
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>
> -----------------------------------------------
> On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 16:21, Nick Viera wrote:
> > Hmmm... I sent this e-mail to the list yesterday
> and it didn't go through??? :
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Okay, I got the shunt inserted into the motor loop
> now. I haven't been
> > out for a drive yet, but did measure the current
> on the motor side with
> > the car parked.
> >
> > With the transmission in neutral and the clutch
> engaged:
> > RPM MOTOR Amps
> > 1000 65
> > 1500 70
> > 2000 76
> > 2500 74
> > 3000 71
> > 3500 71
> > 4000 74
> > 4500 72
> >
> > With the transmission in neutral and the clutch
> DIS-engaged:
> > RPM MOTOR Amps
> > 1000 60
> > 2000 62
> > 3000 65
> > 4000 71
> >
> > The motor ALWAYS took at least 60 amps to keep it
> spinning. When I would
> > start the motor from a stop, it would pull up to
> 220 amps until it
> > picked up speed. When I would increase it's speed
> while it was already
> > spinning, it would pull 120-180 or so amps.
> >
> > Does this help diagnose the problem? Hopefully
> I'll have Motor current
> > readings with the motor under load by tomorrow.
> >
> > Thanks
> > -Nick
> > 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> > http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > > On Fri, 2004-12-03 at 23:44, Rich Rudman wrote:
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Friday, December 03, 2004 5:45 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Motor Amps, Battery Amps ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > > How hot does the motor get??
> > > > >
> > > > > I have noticed that the motor seems to get
> hot -- in opinion too hot.
> > > > > Even after a shorter (~6 mile drive), the
> motor shaft and both casing
> > > > > ends are too hot to touch. I'll try to get
> an actual temp. reading from
> > > > > my multimeter (which has a temp. probe)...
> > > > >
> > > > > Now that I think about it, I have also
> noticed sort of a "burning
> > > > > brakes" smell coming from the motor after
> longer (~10+ mile) trips. This
> > > > > is especially noticeable after trips which
> have included hills or
> > > > > inclines, which have included me pulling up
> to 380 amps on the battery
> > > > > side. This smell is definitely NOT the front
> brakes. I've had those
> > > > > fixed and they no longer smell. The smell
> comes straight up from the
> > > > > motor. I thought at first that it might be
> due to the motor still being
> > > > > relatively new, but now that I've got 468.4
> EV miles on the Jeep (I keep
> > > > > a good log), I can't imagine that being the
> case.
> > > > >
> > > > > > No load and a good speed should be like 25
> to 50 amps...Motor amps,
> > > > > > almost nothing battery amps.
> > > > >
> > > > > I just hooked back up the Tachometer sensor
> (which works ok when it
> > > > > feels like it), and did a little test. With
> the transmission in neutral,
> > > > > the motor pulls the following currents (give
> or take a few amps):
> > > > >
> > > > > RPM Current drawn (battery side current)
> > > > > 1000 8 amps
> > > > > 2000 15 amps
> > > > > 3000 20 amps
> > > > > 4000 40 amps
> > > > >
> > > > I'll say 4800 watts to spin up, that's 6.43
> Hoursepower to freespin....
> > > > Ok NOW we are getting somewheres......
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > These are BATTERY SIDE current readings,
> with NO load on the motor
> > > > > except for the spinning aluminum
> flywheel/hub, clutch disc, and pressure
> > > > > plate. I'm guessing that this is way too
> much current being pulled if
> > > > > I'm supposed to see no more than 50 motor
> amps?
> > > > >
> > > > > I'll try to get my 400 amp shunt in the
> motor loop this weekend if I
> > > > > have some spare cables around here with
> eyelets on them... otherwise
> > > > > I'll have to order some more and wait...
> > > > >
> > > > > Last questions... If this is a motor
> problem, I'm assuming it could be
> > > > > repaired (at a motor shop)? Are motors like
> this usually expensive to
> > > > > repair?
> > > >
> > > > Oh oh!
> > > > Well yea depending on the problems.
> > > > Most of us racers can do a 9" incher rebuild.
> Shipping is a few hunder
> > > > bucks, you can't use UPS because the motor is
> too heavy.
> > > > A motor rebuild shop can help, ones that
> do fork truck and Golf cart
> > > > rebuilds.
> > > >
> > > > And once you get it out... again.... Many on
> this list can lead you through
> > > > testing and repair it it's simple bolt and
> unbolt stuff.
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
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Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
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--- End Message ---
