EV Digest 3966
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Electric Pocket Bike
by "Brian D. Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: DCP DC/DC input fuse
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: GVWR, was: The 200sx is alive!!
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Taxes
by "goodsharonwbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Small AGM batteries
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Intimidators on the Road
by Tom Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Golf cart bats, etc
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Battery Manufacture
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Golf cart bats, etc
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Was: 200sx GVWR, now CivicwithACord GVWR
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: DIY Controller?
by Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery Manufacture
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Golf cart bats, etc
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Battery Manufacture
by "johnk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: DIY Controller? (DIY Motor)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery Manufacture
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
We have had some super fun taking some 1st place wins against tricked out
gas pocket bikes. check out http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/pocketek.htm
Brian D. Hall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd have to say Hawkers have very long life!
I was impressed when I got my 94 Geo Prizm electricar that was "flat
dead for the past 6 years". After offloading it from the transport truck
I went under it, flipped the main power contactor, installed an
accessory battery, and fired it up. It was able to move to it's charger,
where after a 20 hour charge it was ready to go. Got 2k miles from a 9
year old pack with 25 miles of range. Not bad actually.
Hawkers can take a beating, but they do not like to go dry. Overcharge
and you'll have to water them to get them back in shape.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ADD FAN IN TEXAS!!!
Also Nick I would get a small AGM type battery to hold up the 12 volt rail.
You need some elbow room on that Dc2dc.
I wish Damon had advanced that product into the 600 and 1200 watt world... I
would have had I not been tossed...
er... OK OK. enough with the history lesson...
Bah Humbug!
I always thought we should price it at a buck a watt, Add a fan and double
the price....
Ot and I are still toying with building a EV rated Dc/DC.... We both want to
, both of us are burried in our own work.
In Fact Ot blew his charger..... Again.....
Same fault pattern.
He really needs to stop using my charger as a welder.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:37 PM
Subject: Re: DCP DC/DC input fuse
> Hi,
>
> > It gets hot to the touch, but no more so
> > than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2 PS pump.
>
> Mine gets HOT. Especially on the mornings when I do a 15 mile trip with
> the headlights on, then the DC/DC is almost too hot to touch. I've never
> had a problem with the input fuse despite all the heat mine puts out. Oh
> and then there's that squealing sound mine makes most of the time....
>
> > although the DC/DC should just
> > reduce output if its getting hot.
>
> Hmmm, well in that case maybe I should install a fan on mine, as I need
> as much power out of it as possible to keep the 12 volt system up with
> the P/S pump running. Maybe if you temporarily put a fan on yours you
> could keep its temperature level down to see if that makes the problem
> go away?
>
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 2004-12-17 at 12:43, Mark Farver wrote:
> > I've been having some problems with my Alltrax/DCP DC/DC. The factory
> > has been very helpful, but at this point they are out of ideas. So I'll
> > toss it out for the listers to ponder.
> >
> > Some history... I got the unit new from KTA in January. Finally got
> > around to installing it in March. I wasn't driving the car much then,
> > and I still didn't have all the HV wiring finalized so I was sharing one
> > "always on" connection to the pack between the charger and DC/DC. After
> > a week of this the input fuse blew. I asked Rich Rudman what would have
> > caused that while we were attending the Reva show in Vancouver BC. His
> > immediate answer was inrush current, and explained I should avoid
> > disconnecting and reconnecting the DC/DC.
> >
> > Ok.. so I wired the DC/DC to the pack directly, replaced the fuse and
> > went back to using the car intermittantly. Sometime in the next few
> > months the fuse blew, but it took a few weeks of occasional use before
> > the 12v battery ran down. This time I opened the unit up to discover a
> > large black shadow on the big filter capacitor, the small disc shaped
> > component (judging from the shadow) that was against the filter cap was
> > reduced to just two metal pins. This seemed to be a primary indication
> > of something bad so I returned the unit to DCP for warrenty repair.
> > They got it back to me repaired and extensively tested. It lasted for
> > about 2 weeks of daily use before dying while using the wipers and
> > headlights in a rainstorm. Called Alltrax, they thought the problem odd
> > and asked for the unit to be returned. A few weeks later with just the
> > fuse replaced it ran flawlessly on their test bench.
> >
> > Got it back, put it in and it died that night.
> >
> > So something about my car is causing the failures.
> >
> > My pack voltage is 180V, so the DC/DC should never reach the <96v where
> > input current becomes an issue.
> >
> > Some thoughts:
> > Mounting.. my unit is mounted fins down on the carpeted trunk floor
> > protruding thru the trunk wall into the fender space. Not the best
> > position for heat dissipation. It gets hot to the touch, but no more so
> > than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2 PS pump.
> >
> > Wiring, I ran about 5 feet of 18 gauge cable to the HV inputs, and 5
> > feet of 10 gauge from the 12v outputs to the battery.
> >
> > Alltrax suggested an intermittant connection in the HV wiring, but I
> > cannot find it. Maybe I should wire an analog meter to the HV wires and
> > go for a ride.
> >
> > So the most likely culprit is still heat, although the DC/DC should just
> > reduce output if its getting hot.
> >
> > Any other suggestions?
> >
> > Mark Farver
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The owner's manual for my Ranger lists four GVWR's, one for each
combination of manual/auto transmission and rear axle ratio. Given
that everything else is the same on the vehicle, something as simple
as the transmission and axle ratio can make a difference in GVWR.
Tim
-------
From:� "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:� Fri�Dec�17,�2004� 6:58 pm
Subject:� Re: GVWR, was: The 200sx is alive!!
One of the factors in the gvwr is the size of the brakes. Remember this
vehicle has to STOP !
Mike G.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Guys, was talking with Jerry, He told me to ask the groupe about
Fed Tax credits for conversions, Here in Ks. they are very clear
about it,,YES... but on the FED web site under "forms" its very
cloudy, Question...is there a program to deal with conversions on
ICE powered vechiels that are converted to ELE?????? Sharon..Happy
Holidays to all & yours
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
> Also Nick I would get a small AGM type battery to hold up the 12 volt
> rail. You need some elbow room on that Dc2dc.
I've been looking at them, and am ready to go buy one, as I agree that I
really need a better 12v battery.
However, I still can't decide which one to get. I'll looked at SVRs and
Odysseys as someone previously suggested on the List. I see that the SVR
20, Odyssey PC625, and Odyssey PC680 will all fit in my battery holder
and have about the same amp hour rating (16-18 ah).
I'm still trying to figure out why the Odyssey PC625 is so much cheaper
than the other two (like $69 vs. $85-95). But maybe I should get the SVR
20 as it has a higher amp-hour rating? I did look at the Exide 34XCD but
it is too big. Oh, and I can't seem to find anything at all about the
Hawker GP13EP.
So, which battery do you think would be best? Or are they all going to
be about the same, and I should just pick one?
Thanks,
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
------------------------------------------------
On Sat, 2004-12-18 at 13:30, Rich Rudman wrote:
> ADD FAN IN TEXAS!!!
>
> Also Nick I would get a small AGM type battery to hold up the 12 volt rail.
> You need some elbow room on that Dc2dc.
> I wish Damon had advanced that product into the 600 and 1200 watt world... I
> would have had I not been tossed...
> er... OK OK. enough with the history lesson...
> Bah Humbug!
>
> I always thought we should price it at a buck a watt, Add a fan and double
> the price....
> Ot and I are still toying with building a EV rated Dc/DC.... We both want to
> , both of us are burried in our own work.
> In Fact Ot blew his charger..... Again.....
> Same fault pattern.
> He really needs to stop using my charger as a welder.....
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:37 PM
> Subject: Re: DCP DC/DC input fuse
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > > It gets hot to the touch, but no more so
> > > than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2 PS pump.
> >
> > Mine gets HOT. Especially on the mornings when I do a 15 mile trip with
> > the headlights on, then the DC/DC is almost too hot to touch. I've never
> > had a problem with the input fuse despite all the heat mine puts out. Oh
> > and then there's that squealing sound mine makes most of the time....
> >
> > > although the DC/DC should just
> > > reduce output if its getting hot.
> >
> > Hmmm, well in that case maybe I should install a fan on mine, as I need
> > as much power out of it as possible to keep the 12 volt system up with
> > the P/S pump running. Maybe if you temporarily put a fan on yours you
> > could keep its temperature level down to see if that makes the problem
> > go away?
> >
> > -Nick
> > 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> > http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------
> > On Fri, 2004-12-17 at 12:43, Mark Farver wrote:
> > > I've been having some problems with my Alltrax/DCP DC/DC. The factory
> > > has been very helpful, but at this point they are out of ideas. So I'll
> > > toss it out for the listers to ponder.
> > >
> > > Some history... I got the unit new from KTA in January. Finally got
> > > around to installing it in March. I wasn't driving the car much then,
> > > and I still didn't have all the HV wiring finalized so I was sharing one
> > > "always on" connection to the pack between the charger and DC/DC. After
> > > a week of this the input fuse blew. I asked Rich Rudman what would have
> > > caused that while we were attending the Reva show in Vancouver BC. His
> > > immediate answer was inrush current, and explained I should avoid
> > > disconnecting and reconnecting the DC/DC.
> > >
> > > Ok.. so I wired the DC/DC to the pack directly, replaced the fuse and
> > > went back to using the car intermittantly. Sometime in the next few
> > > months the fuse blew, but it took a few weeks of occasional use before
> > > the 12v battery ran down. This time I opened the unit up to discover a
> > > large black shadow on the big filter capacitor, the small disc shaped
> > > component (judging from the shadow) that was against the filter cap was
> > > reduced to just two metal pins. This seemed to be a primary indication
> > > of something bad so I returned the unit to DCP for warrenty repair.
> > > They got it back to me repaired and extensively tested. It lasted for
> > > about 2 weeks of daily use before dying while using the wipers and
> > > headlights in a rainstorm. Called Alltrax, they thought the problem odd
> > > and asked for the unit to be returned. A few weeks later with just the
> > > fuse replaced it ran flawlessly on their test bench.
> > >
> > > Got it back, put it in and it died that night.
> > >
> > > So something about my car is causing the failures.
> > >
> > > My pack voltage is 180V, so the DC/DC should never reach the <96v where
> > > input current becomes an issue.
> > >
> > > Some thoughts:
> > > Mounting.. my unit is mounted fins down on the carpeted trunk floor
> > > protruding thru the trunk wall into the fender space. Not the best
> > > position for heat dissipation. It gets hot to the touch, but no more so
> > > than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2 PS pump.
> > >
> > > Wiring, I ran about 5 feet of 18 gauge cable to the HV inputs, and 5
> > > feet of 10 gauge from the 12v outputs to the battery.
> > >
> > > Alltrax suggested an intermittant connection in the HV wiring, but I
> > > cannot find it. Maybe I should wire an analog meter to the HV wires and
> > > go for a ride.
> > >
> > > So the most likely culprit is still heat, although the DC/DC should just
> > > reduce output if its getting hot.
> > >
> > > Any other suggestions?
> > >
> > > Mark Farver
> > >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the Escort wagon conversion I bought back in October is on the road
again. And no, it's not very intimidating (an Escort with a 400 amp Curtis
controller?) but it's the basic run-to-town car I wanted it to be. And being
the only EV I know of in Loudoun County, its a lot of fun seeing people check
it out. Open the hood to show it to one person, and a small crowd shows up in
no time :)
I bought it knowing that the 7 year old Optimas needed to be replaced. I
decided to go with the new Deka Intimidator. The only downside to them is that
they have the posts way in the corners, instead of more centered like the YTs.
That meant replacing most of the battery cables to fit. Something of a pain,
but let me fix a few peculiarities in the originals. And while I was at it, I
put in an e-meter, a bigger heater and did a few other changes.
But now it's up and running. Still need to add a bit more insulation around
the batteries, but that's about it for now. It's been fun to get out there -
couple of test runs first, and now using it for "real" trips.
It did give me a scare coming home on one trip. I was about 1/2 mile from home
and lost all power. Luckily, I was on a bit of a downhill and able to just
roll a few yards onto my driveway and pull off to the side. Had my wife tow me
up to the house with the F350. Turns out the problem was a 12v wire behind the
dash that someone previously had capped off with a wire nut. The wire nut fell
off, and the bare end hit the chassis metal, taking out the 15 amp fuse that
feeds the contractor coil circuit.
But overall, so far so good, happy with the car and happy with the
Intimidators. I won't have any useful way to directly compare the Intimidators
to the YTs (Since they were well used by the time I got them), but I am keeping
track of e-meter readings and charging data for a while at least.
- Tom Coate
Leesburg, VA, USA
1970s Elec-Trak E20 36VDC
1993 Ford Escort Wagon 120 VDC
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Dec 2004 at 7:48, John Wayland wrote:
> > > Do hair dryers self-limit when the fan dies?
> >
> > Unfortunately, no. I know this from experience.
>
> Actually, the answer is yes. They all come with a small temperature switch
> in-line with the heater coils that opens on over-temp conditions ...
I suspect that temp switch is AC rated. Mine was; on DC when it tried to
open, it welded. The plastic hair dryer barrel, under the dash and plumbed
to the defroster vents, melted down. Fortunately, it just smoked and didn't
catch fire. I shut down the power pretty quickly when smoke started pouring
from the windshield slots!
This was one of those situations where I just didn't have enough safeguards
in place and had done some stupid things. The thermal fuse in the hair
dryer had opened years before, and I'd bypassed it rather than replacing it,
figuring that the thermal switch was protection enough (mistake #1). For
heat control, I used a relay which was supposed to drop out the heat when
the blower was off. But I was careless about contact rating, using an AC-
rated relay for DC at about half its rating (mistake #2). That wasn't good
enough; the relay stuck on.
Fortunately, all the power to everything in the car (this was in my '74
Honda Civic) went through the main contactor, so turning off the key stopped
the smoke show. I did have a dry chemical fire extinguisher in the car, but
I didn't have to use it. Popped the hood, disconnected the power to the
defroster (I always carry tools, too), and headed for home (tail between my
legs).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I always see references to golf cart batteries. I've always figured they
were lead acid floodeds, and that's probably what they are, but it always seems
that people put them in a "special" category. Someone will say - "I don't like
my flooded lead acids, want to try something else" and someone else will say
"try golf cart bats." Always makes me scratch my head.
So tell me... just what the hell *are* golf cart batteries? Are they simply
flooded lead acids, specially made with a form factor to go into golf carts?
Or are they something else? If they are flooded lead acids, then why use one
(regular) over the other (golf cart)? Are they *special* flooded lead acids?
I think I've heard that they are 6V rather than 12V too, but I could be
mistaken.
Thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am not starting a flaw war people, I have been researching and
seriously considering this, although I plan on renting a small building
in an industrial complex because of regulations.
I don't need to make the chemicals and there is no metalic lithum in the
batteries anymore.
What info have I failed to gather?
I'll need...
An argon glove box
vacum oven or desicant dryer
sonic welder (optional)
vacumm pump
As far as I understand it,
mix binder,solvent and anode or cathode material togather and add 2%
teflon, roll to thickness and cut to pattern
Press into fine alum or copper screen collector grids with a set of
rollers
Dry in vacum oven
Assemble cell in glovebox, pull vacumm and let cell suck in it's
eletroyte.
sonic weld or otherwise seal and let age, then commision charge
and test.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to Steve and All,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I always see references to golf cart batteries. I've always figured they
> were lead acid floodeds, and that's probably what they are, but it always
> seems
> that people put them in a "special" category. So tell me... just what the
> hell *are*
> golf cart batteries? Are they simply
> flooded lead acids, specially made with a form factor to go into golf carts?
> I think
> I've heard that they are 6V rather than 12V too, but I could be
> mistaken.
Golf cart (or golf car, whichever way you say it) batteries are a standard
sized block
shaped lead acid wet cell type (you can also call it a 'flooded type) 6V
battery.
There are now, sealed AGM type golf car batteries available as well, but for
most all
intents and purposes, when someone talks of using golf car batteries in their
EV, they are
referring to the classic wet cell 6V golf car battery that has three removable
cell caps
across the top, one for each of its three cells, and periodically need to have
water
added. Golf car batteries are heavy, in the 61 lb. - 70 lb. area depending on
make and
model, and are high in ahr capacity in the range of 225 ahr - 245 ahr, again,
depending on
make and model.
> someone will say - "I don't like
> my flooded lead acids, want to try something else" and someone else will say
> "try golf cart bats." Always makes me scratch my head.
That's because 'flooded lead acids' can be any of a variety of battery
types....a typical
older style car starting battery is a 12V flooded lead acid with thin plates
that's great
for starting power in a regular ICE car but is not deep cycle (most of today's
starting
batteries have switched over tot he AGM type)...a typical marine or RV deep
cycle 12V
battery is also a flooded lead acid with plates thicker than the typical
starting battery,
usually in the group 27 size and shape, usually around 105 ahrs. and 52 lbs. or
so...it
can also mean a flooded lead acid 12V small battery like the U1 size for garden
tractors....and so it goes.
The reason someone will say "try golf cart bats.", is that of all the flooded
lead acid
types available, only the golf car battery is a true deep cycle, as in the
sense of being
designed to be used for traction type applications, where repeated
charge-discharge
cycles, and l-o-n-g durations of power at traction sized currents are expected.
> If they are flooded lead acids, then why use one
> (regular) over the other (golf cart)? Are they *special* flooded lead acids?
Yes, in comparison to all other flooded lead acid types, they are indeed,
special. The
typical 'reserve' rating for golf car batteries, is 75 amps. That means, it's
designed to
have currents of 75 amps and more, to be pulled continuously from it. Other
deep cycle
type flooded lead acid batteries, like the aforementioned marine and RV group
27 size 12V
batteries, are still rated more like a car starting battery in regards to
reserve
capacity, which is a far wimpier 25 amps. If you try to use this type of
battery in an EV
where 75 amp- 400 or 500 amps will be asked for, they soon wear out and fail on
you...think of this type of flooded lead acid deep cycle battery more like a
very light
duty type, where only the golf car battery is the real heavy duty type that can
actually
deliver BIG juice over long periods of time. If you look at the cycle life
rating of a
typical RV or marine deep cycle 12V battery its around 250 cycles....look at
most golf car
6V batteries, and you'll find anywhere from 650 -750 cycles! Keep in mind too,
that the
750 cycles for the golf car battery is at 75 amp current draws, where the RV or
marine
deep cycle 12V battery's cycle life rating is at just 25 amps...pull 75 amps
from them
most of the time, and that cyclic rating will be 100 cycles or less.
If you want to compare typical 12V type flooded lead acid batteries to golf car
6V type
flooded lead acid batteries, remeber to double the weight for the golf car
type, because
you need two of them wired in sereis, to get a 12V battery. Also remember, to
compare
similar weigths of batteries...an example: two, 6V 245 ahr golf car batteries
make up one
big 12v 245 ahr battery that weighs 140 lbs. , so you would want to compare,
say three 50
lb. RV type 12V batteries (150 lbs.) in parallel. Now you have a 140 lb., 12V
245 ahr
battery next to a 150 lb., 12V 315 ahr battery...see how this works? On the
surface, it
looks like you're better off with the three RV batteries, as there's more ahrs
available,
but once you start sucking high currents from those wimpier RV batteries, their
true ahr
capacity will fall far lower than their 25 amps rated ahrs. At a 75 amp draw,
you might
still get 200 ahrs or so, but at 75 amps from the two golf car batteries, you
'will' get
all of those 245 ahrs. The 12V stack of those two golf car batteries are 10
lbs. lighter
than the triple stack of the RV batteries, but at 75 amps of current draw,
handily
outperform them, and, the 12V stack of golf car batteries will do this for 750
cycles,
where the triple stack of the RV batteries are only going to last, maybe 100
cycles at 75
amp current draws.
Hope this helps clear things up for you.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, timing is perfect, as I got weighed today, post
conversion.
Stock Civvy (DX 4 dr). 2220
Final Weight 3300
Batteries weight (18 x 71): 1278
Motor 120 lbs.
That means I lost around 270 lbs. in engine block;
controller and charger make up the remaining 20 or so.
At 2220 lbs, available cargo cap. is listed as 850.
That means GVWR is 3070. So before I hop inside, I'm
over by 230 lbs. Add 160 of me, and I'm almost 400
over.
Okay, so about that brake upgrade... (:-<
--- Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The owner's manual for my Ranger lists four GVWR's,
> one for each
> combination of manual/auto transmission and rear
> axle ratio. Given
> that everything else is the same on the vehicle,
> something as simple
> as the transmission and axle ratio can make a
> difference in GVWR.
>
> Tim
>
> -------
> From:� "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date:� Fri�Dec�17,�2004� 6:58 pm
> Subject:� Re: GVWR, was: The 200sx is alive!!
>
> One of the factors in the gvwr is the size of the
> brakes. Remember this
> vehicle has to STOP !
> Mike G.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Send holiday email and support a worthy cause. Do good.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What kind of motor would you use? I'm assuming when you say "inverter" you
mean a 3 phase AC motor controller. I had a schematic at about 80% and a
layout at around 40%, then lost steam because I didn't see a ready source of
motors that could be bought. Victor's metricmind website has siemens water
cooled AC motors, but apparently you need to buy the motors with a controller -
you can't just buy a motor. If you go with an industrial air cooled motor,
they start to get really gigantic.
The other fundamental problem I saw was that all the motors were designed for
around 400V max, meaning to get the max rated horsepower, you would need a
battery pack capable of delivering full current at 400V. Battery pack is
starting to look pretty heavy...
In solar electric inverters, the fets are always mounted in the
horizontal plane, side by side at the very top, inside the inverter case. On
the exterior top of the case, there is a large aluminum heat sink in
direct contact with the fet mounts.
----- Original Message -----
From: Quin Pendragon<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:05 AM
Subject: Re: DIY Controller?
I'm working on one (aimed at electric karts) using the IRFPS3815 (a
150V 105A continuous avalanche-rated FET). The circuit design is
done,
but the PCB layout is taking a while due to thermal issues
(specifically, trying to find a good way to mount the FETs so that I
can heat-sink them to the case of the controller).
My design basically consists of half an H-bridge (consisting of 6
paralleled FETs on each side) connected to 6 IR2010 drivers, which in
turn are controlled by a pair of SX micros. One SX does the low level
PWM control, the other does serial communication for config,
voltage/temperature/current monitoring and feedback, etc.
I'm using FETs rather than IGBTs because (a) the FETs are $4 each,
making the whole thing cost <$150 in components, and (b) they're more
efficient for lower voltages (FETs have a constant 'on' resistance,
whereas IGBTs have a constant voltage drop, meaning FETs work better
if you have low voltages and high currents.)
So basically yeah, if you're on the wrong track then so am I. :)
Cheers,
Quin
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:18:46 -0800, Gnat
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> I'm till reading evey scrap of info I find so if this sounds
> a bit strange then consider the source ;-]
>
> I'm wondering if anyone has built or designed thier own controller.
>
> I've been looking at various controller designs and don't see
anything
> really exotic. From wha I can see it would be possible to use
simple
> fast switching igbt modules and a microcontroller to duplicate a
few
> of the controllers. There are several igbt modules that handle
600amps
> with higher ratings for pulsed operations that sell for about $300.
>
> Anyway just wondering if anyone had thought about going down this
road
> before.
>
> Dave
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
It sounds like a challenge, to say the least.
What's your business plan? How many batteries do you plan to sell; what
wh/kg, amp-hours, etc? Do you have any idea of what your manufacturing cost
will be? Do you think you can make them cheaper than the Chinese, or why do
you think you have an advantage over existing manufacturers? Do you think
the performance and safety will be competitive enough?
Just wondering... I'm still looking for an affordable li-ion or other
lithium technology battery and your product could be a contender. But, it
sounds like you have a long way to go.
Peri Hartman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, 18 December, 2004 16:14
Subject: Re: Battery Manufacture
I am not starting a flaw war people, I have been researching and seriously
considering this, although I plan on renting a small building in an
industrial complex because of regulations.
I don't need to make the chemicals and there is no metalic lithum in the
batteries anymore.
What info have I failed to gather?
I'll need...
An argon glove box
vacum oven or desicant dryer
sonic welder (optional)
vacumm pump
As far as I understand it,
mix binder,solvent and anode or cathode material togather and add 2%
teflon, roll to thickness and cut to pattern
Press into fine alum or copper screen collector grids with a set of
rollers
Dry in vacum oven
Assemble cell in glovebox, pull vacumm and let cell suck in it's
eletroyte.
sonic weld or otherwise seal and let age, then commision charge and
test.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I reread my post, and aside from the multiple spelling errors, I was off when I
stated:
> ....three RV batteries...their true ahr
> capacity will fall far lower than their 25 amps rated ahrs. At a 75 amp draw,
> you might
> still get 200 ahrs or so, but at 75 amps from the two golf car batteries, you
> 'will' get
> all of those 245 ahrs.
You won't get the full 245 ahrs from the golf car batteries at a 75 amp
draw...what was I
thinking? Like the triple stack of RV batteries, the two golf car batteries
will also not
meet their 20 hr discharge rate in ahrs when being drawn at 75 amps...more like
180 ahrs or
so. So, the triple stack of RV batteries just might give more ahrs under the
same 75 amp
load, at least for the first 40-50 cycles from them. After that time though,
with the damage
being done to them due to common discharges far in excess of their 25 amp
reserve rating, and
with just a scant 50 cycles or so remaining, the available ahrs from this set
would diminish
to where they give less than the 180 ahrs of the twin golf car batteries. The
golf car
batteries, however, will continue to give that 180 ahrs @ 75 amps discharge
long after the RV
batteries have been recycled, to the tune of perhaps, 500 cycles or so. So...in
the short
run, you'll get more range from the same weight in RV batteries, but only for
the first three
or four months of EV operation, then, it's all down hill from there. The golf
car batteries
are designed for traction use, and will continue to perform well, as long as
they, like the
RV batteries, are not subjected to cruel and unusual punishment. In the case of
golf car
batteries, anything beyond an occasional 500 amp draw, is cruel and unusual
punishment...for
that duty, get Hawkers, Optimas, or Orbitals!
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You're suggesting starting an industrial enterprise subject to OSHA and
EPA regulations. If you're California, God help you! If your on the S.F
peninsula ,,,forget it!
That said I think it's a good idea and I admire you for thinking outside
the box. Good luck.
John K
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 4:14 PM
To: EVlist
Subject: Re: Battery Manufacture
I am not starting a flaw war people, I have been researching and
seriously considering this, although I plan on renting a small building
in an industrial complex because of regulations.
I don't need to make the chemicals and there is no metalic lithum in the
batteries anymore.
What info have I failed to gather?
I'll need...
An argon glove box
vacum oven or desicant dryer
sonic welder (optional)
vacumm pump
As far as I understand it,
mix binder,solvent and anode or cathode material togather and add 2%
teflon, roll to thickness and cut to pattern
Press into fine alum or copper screen collector grids with a set of
rollers
Dry in vacum oven
Assemble cell in glovebox, pull vacumm and let cell suck in it's
eletroyte.
sonic weld or otherwise seal and let age, then commision charge
and test.
---
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--- Begin Message ---
Don't let the motor availability get to you. Some people think that 3
phase induction motors are esoteric. But any old shop can rewind a
motor. I would suggest a 180-250 frame 4 pole motor, rewind with same
circular mils of copper and half the number of turns, connect it in
delta externally. Or a third the number of turns and wire it star/wye.
Start there. Or ask the guy with the electric farm tractor how he
rewound his for 44 volts. I think the software to negotiate the
transistion to field weakening will be more of a challenge than
(re)building a motor. Rewinding a motor might make it cost almost
double. But street price on a 250 frame motor is ~$1000, maybe less.
Will it have sexy water cooling passages? No. Do the water cooling
passages in a liquid cooled motor cool the rotor? No. The rotor in a
liquid sleeve cooled induction motor has the same cooling as an air
cooled motor. Conduction thru the bearings and air convection to the
end bells. Could you even try an open motor? Sure.
Now the actual control is a bit more difficult...
Seth
On Dec 18, 2004, at 8:07 PM, Mike Barber wrote:
What kind of motor would you use? I'm assuming when you say
"inverter" you mean a 3 phase AC motor controller. I had a schematic
at about 80% and a layout at around 40%, then lost steam because I
didn't see a ready source of motors that could be bought. Victor's
metricmind website has siemens water cooled AC motors, but apparently
you need to buy the motors with a controller - you can't just buy a
motor. If you go with an industrial air cooled motor, they start to
get really gigantic.
The other fundamental problem I saw was that all the motors were
designed for around 400V max, meaning to get the max rated horsepower,
you would need a battery pack capable of delivering full current at
400V. Battery pack is starting to look pretty heavy...
In solar electric inverters, the fets are always mounted in the
horizontal plane, side by side at the very top, inside the inverter
case. On
the exterior top of the case, there is a large aluminum heat sink in
direct contact with the fet mounts.
----- Original Message -----
From: Quin Pendragon<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:05 AM
Subject: Re: DIY Controller?
I'm working on one (aimed at electric karts) using the IRFPS3815 (a
150V 105A continuous avalanche-rated FET). The circuit design is
done,
but the PCB layout is taking a while due to thermal issues
(specifically, trying to find a good way to mount the FETs so that I
can heat-sink them to the case of the controller).
My design basically consists of half an H-bridge (consisting of 6
paralleled FETs on each side) connected to 6 IR2010 drivers, which in
turn are controlled by a pair of SX micros. One SX does the low level
PWM control, the other does serial communication for config,
voltage/temperature/current monitoring and feedback, etc.
I'm using FETs rather than IGBTs because (a) the FETs are $4 each,
making the whole thing cost <$150 in components, and (b) they're more
efficient for lower voltages (FETs have a constant 'on' resistance,
whereas IGBTs have a constant voltage drop, meaning FETs work better
if you have low voltages and high currents.)
So basically yeah, if you're on the wrong track then so am I. :)
Cheers,
Quin
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:18:46 -0800, Gnat
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
I'm till reading evey scrap of info I find so if this sounds
a bit strange then consider the source ;-]
I'm wondering if anyone has built or designed thier own controller.
I've been looking at various controller designs and don't see
anything
really exotic. From wha I can see it would be possible to use
simple
fast switching igbt modules and a microcontroller to duplicate a
few
of the controllers. There are several igbt modules that handle
600amps
with higher ratings for pulsed operations that sell for about $300.
Anyway just wondering if anyone had thought about going down this
road
before.
Dave
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! � Try it today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff:
Yes, good luck to you. Maybe there is some pad --- to get back the NRE,
of course --- in all the charges we see.
/Bob
PS California has several large battery manufacturers, e.g., Trojan, Us
Battery , IBE (forklift).
On Saturday, December 18, 2004, at 06:03 PM, johnk wrote:
You're suggesting starting an industrial enterprise subject to OSHA and
EPA regulations. If you're California, God help you! If your on the S.F
peninsula ,,,forget it!
That said I think it's a good idea and I admire you for thinking
outside
the box. Good luck.
John K
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2004 4:14 PM
To: EVlist
Subject: Re: Battery Manufacture
I am not starting a flaw war people, I have been researching and
seriously considering this, although I plan on renting a small building
in an industrial complex because of regulations.
I don't need to make the chemicals and there is no metalic lithum in
the
batteries anymore.
What info have I failed to gather?
I'll need...
An argon glove box
vacum oven or desicant dryer
sonic welder (optional)
vacumm pump
As far as I understand it,
mix binder,solvent and anode or cathode material togather and add
2%
teflon, roll to thickness and cut to pattern
Press into fine alum or copper screen collector grids with a set of
rollers
Dry in vacum oven
Assemble cell in glovebox, pull vacumm and let cell suck in it's
eletroyte.
sonic weld or otherwise seal and let age, then commision charge
and test.
---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.794 / Virus Database: 538 - Release Date: 11/10/2004
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Dec 2004 at 9:11, John Wayland wrote:
> With all the well deserved respect to my friend, I had to laugh at this.
Ah, the return of the flooded vs. AGM wars. Let the flames rise ever
higher! <grin>
John's anecdotes are interesting and they make for really fun reading (keep
'em coming, John!). But John is an extraordinary EVer, and while there are
probably some others similar to him on the EV list who can and should learn
from his experiences, statistically those experiences aren't always
reflective of the ^typical^ EVer's.
Lee Hart is an electrical engineer with many, many years of EV use under his
belt; he's a thrifty EVer, moderate in his driving. He knows his stuff: on
the ^average^, and for a more typical EV user, flooded golf car batteries
^will^ deliver longer range and longer life.
They will also deliver MUCH lower cost per mile than AGMs. For one situation
I calculated about one-seventh the cost per mile. I can't say that's
necessarily true for every case, but in many cases, perhaps most cases, the
per-mile cost will be significantly lower.
That comes with an important caveat, though. If you're the kind of driver
who treats the accelerator pedal like an on-off switch <g>, in many cases
AGMs will give you longer life and better range. They are a good bit more
forgiving of "amp abuse" than most golf car batteries are.
I would be remiss if I didn't also mention that a significant number of more
"normal" EV users (whatever that means ;-) have found that Hawkers are not
long lived batteries unless they have somewhat special treatment. They
really need regular high current charging, on the order of 1c or more IIRC,
or they tend to lose capacity long before they should.
John's experiences are a kick to read about, and certainly Hawkers and
Optimas have served him well. They satisfy his thirst for huge amounts of
raw power - that's their forte. But there are (and have been for many
years) quite a few other EVers of perhaps more moderate means (or at least
who devote less of their resources to their EVs than John), and more
moderate driving habits, who have been and probably will be appreciably
better served by good old workhorse golf car batteries. Don't sell 'em
short: they're not flashy, but they work.
> The reason someone will say "try golf cart bats.", is that of all
> the flooded lead acid types available, only the golf car battery is
> a true deep cycle ...
Once again I must respectfully disagree. There are many other flooded lead
batteries that are true deep cycle types - John works with some of them
every day, in fact; they're in the forklifts he services!
The 12 volt flooded batteries commonly sold as floor sweeper batteries are
also true deep cycle types, and they've been used with reasonable success in
some EVs, though at a higher per-mile cost than golf car batteries. The L16
batteries often used in PV systems are also true deep cycle batteries,
though they're probably too heavy for any road EV but a huge truck.
However, John is 100% on track about the current capacity of the typical
marine battery vs a golf car battery. Flooded marine batteries can be and
have been used in EVs, but they tend to have fairly short lives (typically
less than 300 cycles, a year or less of use). This adds up to a high per-
mile cost - so if your goal is a light, short-range EV (which might lead you
to consider such batteries), you might as well use AGMs.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Open source software has fewer bugs because it admits the possibility
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-- Napoleon
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