EV Digest 3965
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) OT Re: Energy required to manufacture EV batts
by Jim Waite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery manufacture costs
by "S. David Lalonde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: DIY Controller?
by "Gabriel Alarcon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: DIY Controller?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: DCP DC/DC input fuse
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by "Gabriel Alarcon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Azure Dynamics acquired Solectria today
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Bad Orbital I think
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: GVWR, was: The 200sx is alive!!
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: DIY Controller?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Troubleshooting the ADC
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: This battery smell has me stumped
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: OT Re: Energy required to manufacture EV batts
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lee Hart's Turkeymobile?
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: GVWR, was: The 200sx is alive!!
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Lee Hart's Turkeymobile?
by Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee and ALL,
OT or not I read *everything* you have to say. Your seemingly unlimited source
of EV and/or electronic knowledge, insights, and introspective view of *stuff*
never ceases to amaze me!
--<you wrote>---
>Conversely, solar cells probably have the lowest efficiency of any
energy technology; barely 10% of the energy in sunlight gets converted to
electricity....If someone invented a solar cell paint that was only 1%
efficient, but cost less than coal, we would switch over to solar so fast it
would make your head swim!
---<snip>---
I don't recall if the following was posted to the LIST or not, but since it may
(hopefully) have a more near-term impact on solar recharging our EV's, see
http://www.sunpowercorp.com/html/Products/Solar/solarcells.html
and
http://www.sunpowercorp.com/html/Company/News/News/Press%20Releases/SunPower_DoubleCapacity.html
It's certainly nowhere near the same level of "paint", but at least the process
*seems* to be getting more efficient.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to be blunt but, yes, you are wacked. You need a very controlled
environment to make Li-ion cells. This is not a garage / basement
endeavour.
Sincerely,
David
S. David Lalonde / [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Liion Power Products Inc. / http://www.liionpower.com
Li-ion & NiMH batteries for electric cycles & more!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/liion_power_products/
http://liionpower.blogspot.com
Ph: 604 880 1928
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I am currently looking into what it takes to make various battery types,
> anyone else considered rolling our own LI-ion cells?(low volume) or am
> I wacked.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In solar electric inverters, the fets are always mounted in the horizontal
plane, side by side at the very top, inside the inverter case. On the exterior
top of the case, there is a large aluminum heat sink in direct contact with the
fet mounts.
----- Original Message -----
From: Quin Pendragon<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:05 AM
Subject: Re: DIY Controller?
I'm working on one (aimed at electric karts) using the IRFPS3815 (a
150V 105A continuous avalanche-rated FET). The circuit design is done,
but the PCB layout is taking a while due to thermal issues
(specifically, trying to find a good way to mount the FETs so that I
can heat-sink them to the case of the controller).
My design basically consists of half an H-bridge (consisting of 6
paralleled FETs on each side) connected to 6 IR2010 drivers, which in
turn are controlled by a pair of SX micros. One SX does the low level
PWM control, the other does serial communication for config,
voltage/temperature/current monitoring and feedback, etc.
I'm using FETs rather than IGBTs because (a) the FETs are $4 each,
making the whole thing cost <$150 in components, and (b) they're more
efficient for lower voltages (FETs have a constant 'on' resistance,
whereas IGBTs have a constant voltage drop, meaning FETs work better
if you have low voltages and high currents.)
So basically yeah, if you're on the wrong track then so am I. :)
Cheers,
Quin
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 01:18:46 -0800, Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> I'm till reading evey scrap of info I find so if this sounds
> a bit strange then consider the source ;-]
>
> I'm wondering if anyone has built or designed thier own controller.
>
> I've been looking at various controller designs and don't see anything
> really exotic. From wha I can see it would be possible to use simple
> fast switching igbt modules and a microcontroller to duplicate a few
> of the controllers. There are several igbt modules that handle 600amps
> with higher ratings for pulsed operations that sell for about $300.
>
> Anyway just wondering if anyone had thought about going down this road
> before.
>
> Dave
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:12 PM 17/12/04 -0800, Dave wrote:
Well Chris heres the thing...
<snip> Personally I'd rather try some of these instead of just
plugging
in the Curtis I have here.
Dave
Hi Dave
Since you have a controller, then make sure that you can quickly change it
in on the side of the road, and have some fun. Of course this dictates that
the throttle pot needs to be the same, ksi control is (I think) the only
other input on the cursit.
Chris Wrote:
Hi Gnat,
<snip> Controller gurus, please remind me - what size coffee can was that?
Chris
The coffee-can realy only applies when trying to build a commercial
controller - which needs to be built using lowest-cost parts that are up to
the job. So a coffee-can full has the value of only a couple of sets of
expensive modules, but a home-built design using modules should be able to
survive *most* not-quite right conditions.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My DCP DCDC was always hot for awhile, too. Turns out
the aux. batt wasn't holding a charge, so it was
overworking itself!
--- Gabriel Alarcon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A loose connection on the either the hv side or 12
> volt side could cause this. Loose terminals are
> common on EVs. If nothing is loose, check for
> shorts on the 12 volt side. Intermittent short
> probably. Also, a HV short to the chassis can cause
> a problem. Good luck.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Nick Viera<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:37 PM
> Subject: Re: DCP DC/DC input fuse
>
>
> Hi,
>
> > It gets hot to the touch, but no more so
> > than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2
> PS pump.
>
> Mine gets HOT. Especially on the mornings when I
> do a 15 mile trip with
> the headlights on, then the DC/DC is almost too
> hot to touch. I've never
> had a problem with the input fuse despite all the
> heat mine puts out. Oh
> and then there's that squealing sound mine makes
> most of the time....
>
> > although the DC/DC should just
> > reduce output if its getting hot.
>
> Hmmm, well in that case maybe I should install a
> fan on mine, as I need
> as much power out of it as possible to keep the 12
> volt system up with
> the P/S pump running. Maybe if you temporarily put
> a fan on yours you
> could keep its temperature level down to see if
> that makes the problem
> go away?
>
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/<http://go.driveev.com/>
>
> ------------------------------------------------
> On Fri, 2004-12-17 at 12:43, Mark Farver wrote:
> > I've been having some problems with my
> Alltrax/DCP DC/DC. The factory
> > has been very helpful, but at this point they
> are out of ideas. So I'll
> > toss it out for the listers to ponder.
> >
> > Some history... I got the unit new from KTA in
> January. Finally got
> > around to installing it in March. I wasn't
> driving the car much then,
> > and I still didn't have all the HV wiring
> finalized so I was sharing one
> > "always on" connection to the pack between the
> charger and DC/DC. After
> > a week of this the input fuse blew. I asked
> Rich Rudman what would have
> > caused that while we were attending the Reva
> show in Vancouver BC. His
> > immediate answer was inrush current, and
> explained I should avoid
> > disconnecting and reconnecting the DC/DC.
> >
> > Ok.. so I wired the DC/DC to the pack directly,
> replaced the fuse and
> > went back to using the car intermittantly.
> Sometime in the next few
> > months the fuse blew, but it took a few weeks of
> occasional use before
> > the 12v battery ran down. This time I opened
> the unit up to discover a
> > large black shadow on the big filter capacitor,
> the small disc shaped
> > component (judging from the shadow) that was
> against the filter cap was
> > reduced to just two metal pins. This seemed to
> be a primary indication
> > of something bad so I returned the unit to DCP
> for warrenty repair.
> > They got it back to me repaired and extensively
> tested. It lasted for
> > about 2 weeks of daily use before dying while
> using the wipers and
> > headlights in a rainstorm. Called Alltrax, they
> thought the problem odd
> > and asked for the unit to be returned. A few
> weeks later with just the
> > fuse replaced it ran flawlessly on their test
> bench.
> >
> > Got it back, put it in and it died that night.
> >
> > So something about my car is causing the
> failures.
> >
> > My pack voltage is 180V, so the DC/DC should
> never reach the <96v where
> > input current becomes an issue.
> >
> > Some thoughts:
> > Mounting.. my unit is mounted fins down on the
> carpeted trunk floor
> > protruding thru the trunk wall into the fender
> space. Not the best
> > position for heat dissipation. It gets hot to
> the touch, but no more so
> > than Nick Viera's Alltrax DC/DC running the MR2
> PS pump.
> >
> > Wiring, I ran about 5 feet of 18 gauge cable to
> the HV inputs, and 5
> > feet of 10 gauge from the 12v outputs to the
> battery.
> >
> > Alltrax suggested an intermittant connection in
> the HV wiring, but I
> > cannot find it. Maybe I should wire an analog
> meter to the HV wires and
> > go for a ride.
> >
> > So the most likely culprit is still heat,
> although the DC/DC should just
> > reduce output if its getting hot.
> >
> > Any other suggestions?
> >
> > Mark Farver
> >
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the best scenario for heating an ev is to use a combination (hybrid)
system. When re-charging the main pack, heat the mass of the car, ie, floor,
seats, etc, with some electric resistance heating mats, commonly used for
radiant floor heating in homes and in addition, use a supplemental heater when
the heat in the mass wears off. This setup would minimize battery drain while
on the road and may make the difference between getting home or not.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Wayland<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2004 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: Heater/defroster ideas?
Hello to All,
Dave wrote:
> Couldn't you use an inverter with 110vac 1500 watt quartz heater
> with some kind of 12vdc fan. Almost any of these small heaters
> would pump out a lot of heat.
>
> Just a thought.
>
Yes, and it works quite well in 'certain' cases. Such a case, is the way I
use an inverter
system in the back of my forklift service truck. The back is a large box
affair, a rolling
shop. I have a bank of, count 'em, six Trojan T145 6V golf car batteries in a
series-parallel pack to make up a 12V, 735 ahr supply to run the inverter.
The inverter is
rated at 1500W continuous, 3000W surge. It is a nice unit that easily hits
its continuous
rating, and in fact, exceeds it. I can draw 2000 watts continuous, and it
never breaks a
sweat. The batteries are inter-connected with 1/0 cable, and the output cable
from this
pack that passes through a 175 amp Anderson disconnect, is also 1/0 cable.
Why 1/0 cable?
Because, to feed a power-hungry 1500W electric heater, the inverter draws
about 140 amps
at 12V! This amounts to 47.5 amps from each battery.
Because my service truck is large and heavy and already packs around tons of
weight, and
because it has a high powered alternator, the set up of a large heavy bank of
batteries
and this powerful inverter, works out great. I can run anything from multiple
250W-500W
work lights, to cordless tool battery chargers, to a 1500 watt electric
heater, to a BIG 9
inch angle grinder (14 amps)...it also does a great job of powering up a
window style air
conditioner in the Summer! On days like today, where it was c-cold in the
early morning
hours where I ran the heater for 3-4 hours, the alternator isn't run long
enough between
service calls to fill the batteries all the way back up. To keep the pack
always ready to
give me all the 120 VAC power I might need, I plug the truck in at night
(just like an EV)
and let the on-board Todd 40 amp DC-DC charger fill up the 6 Trojans
overnight.
However, to use this type of system running off of a road going electric
car's 12V system,
would be a big negative. Just to run the inverter, you'd need hundreds of
lbs. of
batteries fed by a monster DC-DC converter. There are also losses in the 12
VDC - 120 VAC
process, too, that are wasteful of power. Why do it, when a simple 1500W
ceramic core in
place of the stock heater's water radiator, run off the HV battery pack,
works so well
with virtually no loss of power?
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Described as a merger by the Solectria press release...
www.azuredynamics.com and www.solectria.com
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
In the meantime, I should probably take that battery out of the string,
huh? Or just cook it to death? What would cause it to do what it's doing,
i.e. charge fine, show a fine SOC, but loose its composure as soon as a few
(hehe) amps are asked of it?
Take the battery out of the string and you can continue to operate the
vehicle until it can be replaced, definitely sounds like a stinker from the
factory (shorted and/or dry cell.)
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
I unscrewed the four bolts, but when I lift
on the front end bell, the whole motor armature tries to come out withit.
Is there a way I can take just the front end bell off? I'm guessing
the bearing is why I can't just take the front bell off?
Remove tension on the brushes by lifting the springs off of them one at a
time and hook them off to the side of each brush.
The bearing is a _snug_ fit in the aluminum end bell, it needs to be
_gently_ persuaded to come free. Evenly create some lifting force on the end
bell and tap the armature down with a soft faced dead blow hammer or use a
block of wood to soften any hammer blows/gentle taps. Your motor is new, it
should come free fairly easily.
Assembly and disassembly of ADC motors is generally quite easy. Don't forget
the wavy washer between the bearing and end bell during reassembly. Also,
double check that your brush timing is appropriate to the direction of
rotation.
Additionally, in a previous posting you mentioned that you hadn't run the
brushes in before installation, this is always a good idea especially in
high performance applications.
Just secure it to something and spin it unloaded at 12V for a day or two.
HTH
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about a chemical reaction that could be undone ( recharged ) at the
same time the batteries were being charged?
MikeG.
Ken Trough wrote:
For more aggressive heating requirements such as in the more frozen
areas of the planet, it sounds like you need to dedicate a really
significant amount of electrical power to convert to heating needs.
Obviously, effective electric heating elements (ceramic or not) are
all going to require a huge electric draw, one that is sorely needed
due to the usual reduced ranges that most EVs suffer in cold conditions.
Is there anything available or adaptable in a small gas powered
heater? I hear the collective gasp already. Relax. I'm not suggesting
we burn fuel in or vent exhaust into the cockpit. I'm talking about
some kind of heat exchanger that can live under the hood, vent to the
exterior, and burn propane or something for much more efficient
heating under the most extreme cold conditions.
Given that most auto conversions already have a heat exchanger type of
heating system, this seems like a good possibility for an
under-the-hood solution.
I'm sure this has already been done many times, but all I've seen on
the heating suggestion list are high power electric solutions.
Wouldn't these electrons be better served for propulsion? Until I have
range to burn, I hate to use my precious electrons for anything
besides moving me. I don't even use incandescent lighting any more,
opting to run Luxeon clusters for the headlights and super bright LEDs
for the tail, brake and turns.
Is there a fuel based heating solution that might be more effective
for use in extreme cold conditions?
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of the factors in the gvwr is the size of the brakes. Remember this
vehicle has to STOP !
Mike G.
Christopher Robison wrote:
How much of a factor is the vehicle's suspension in determining its GVWR,
vs. the strength of the body and/or frame?
In other words, with a higher spring rate and stiffer shocks, is it still
considered unsafe to exceed the GVWR?
How many folks out there have exceeded this value for their car, with or
without upgrading the suspension? Is there anyone who has had a "bad
experience" from having done so?
--chris
Mark Farver said:
A vehicle’s GVWR is the maximum weight a vehicle should reach in use,
including the vehicle itself, optional equipment, passengers, cargo and
trailer tongue weight, but not including a trailer. A vehicle’s GVWR is
established by its manufacturer and should not be exceeded for reasons
of safety.
So have the car weighed. Then subtract (by estimate or measuring) the
weight of parts pulled out of the car during conversion (usually about
500 lbs). The difference between the weight and GVWR is how much EV
parts you can add to the car.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gnat wrote:
> I design avionics for a living so I have slowly figured out which
> end of a hot soldering iron to grip... I can get most of the
> components including the igbt's as engineering samples so other
> than my wasted time, there is no cost to me.
Ok; then give it a go!
I'd suggest you start by collecting dead controllers and application
notes. You can learn a lot at low cost by looking at what others have
done, what works, and what doesn't.
The dead controllers will serve as a source of parts (heatsinks, buss
bars, input capacitors, contactors, fuses, etc.). They can also
illustrate how to wire up large, high-power electronics -- and what
things will look like when something goes wrong (exploded parts, massive
damage to PC boards).
The application notes are usually only thought-projects; no one ever
built one that worked any longer than a hour or two. But at least they
will give you ideas for how to do things.
You're also going to need some good test equipment so you can see what's
going on. Many inexpensive meters, 'scopes, etc. go nuts around very
high power electronics, and so will tell you things that just aren't
real.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 3:57 PM
Subject: Re: Troubleshooting the ADC
The motor is now sitting upright (it is sitting on top of its crate,
with the tail shaft going through a hole I made in the crate). I was
thinking that it would be neat if I could take the end bell off the
front of the motor and look for any damage in the motor myself before I
take it to a shop on Monday. I unscrewed the four bolts, but when I lift
on the front end bell, the whole motor armature tries to come out with
it. Is there a way I can take just the front end bell off? I'm guessing
the bearing is why I can't just take the front bell off?
You can't lift the front end bell off. The bearing won't slide out of the
end bell or off the shaft. A motor shop can take the bell off but I don't
know they do it. The other end bell ( the one with the brushes) will lift
off easily.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Drive a few miles and go back to the shop. Leave the headlights and heater
on so you can check the battery voltages under load. You may see quite a
different picture under load.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2004 11:24 AM
Subject: This battery smell has me stumped
> Hi,
>
> I charged last night, and just went out to check each battery. Lowest:
> 12.92, highest 13.0. So I'm between 92-100% SOC, right? 10 of the
> twelve were right at 12.96. Then there was the 12.92 one and 13.0. The
> thing that has me stumped is the one that was smelling last night is at
> 12.96. So why in the world is it smelling?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> Christmas Discounts throughout the season!
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 17 Dec 2004 at 16:32, Claudio Natoli wrote:
> Are questions like this off-topic for the EVDL?
There is something of a fine line here. Please read on.
The list charter specifies:
"The EV Electric Vehicle Discussion Mailing List is intended to provide a
forum to discuss the current state of the art and future direction of
electric vehicles. It is not intended to discuss either EV appropriateness
or comparisons with other transportation primary drive modes such as the
venerable internal combustion engine."
This means it's assumed that everybody participating considers EVs an
appropriate technology, and ^debates^ on that topic are not appropriate to
this list. However, we all recognize that we as EV proponents will be
challenged, perhaps daily, to defend EVs. Thus discussions focusing on such
^defense^ are entirely appropriate.
Now, I know all that sounds like we are quashing debate over whether the EV
is an appropriate answer to ____ (name your social issue). That's not quite
so. To the extent that such debate provides healthy exercise for us (see
the paragraph above) it is declared to be a Good Thing (tm). However
there's a point at which it's clear that all the parties to the discussion
are shouting at one another and nobody is going to change his mind. (If
this point is to be reached it generally happens fairly early. ;-) At that
point the thread is a waste of bandwidth and should be dropped.
To use your question as an example: rational, factual, documented discourse
on the subject of batteries' environmental impact is a positive. However,
if you or someone else stakes out a position (for example) that the energy
consumed in manufacturing batteries IS UNQUESTIONABLY greater than is saved
by the EVs using them, builds a fortress around himself, and starts verbally
abusing those challenging him, insulting list members, quoting alleged
authorities' opinions rather than verifiable facts, and using irrational or
unsupported arguments - then that thread quickly becomes unacceptable.
To cut to the chase, your question posed this way is fine. As long as the
discussion remains civil, nobody should object. If everybody avoids
personal attacks, shouting, flaming, and irrational arguments, it'll be a
valuable addition to the list.
Was that clear enough, or should I make it more convoluted? <grin>
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- Begin Message ---
On 17 Dec 2004 at 12:49, Tim Clevenger wrote:
> Do hair dryers self-limit when the fan dies?
Unfortunately, no. I know this from experience.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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I believe in an America where the separation of church and state
is absolute ... where no minister would tell his parishoners for
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seeks to impose its will ... upon the general populace or the public
acts of its officials.
-- President John F Kennedy
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along these lines how about storage blocks like a domestic economy heater ?
heated up when charging from the mains ?
they might give some decent background heat
"M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
How about a chemical reaction that could be undone ( recharged ) at the
same time the batteries were being charged?
MikeG.
Ken Trough wrote:
> For more aggressive heating requirements such as in the more frozen
> areas of the planet, it sounds like you need to dedicate a really
> significant amount of electrical power to convert to heating needs.
> Obviously, effective electric heating elements (ceramic or not) are
> all going to require a huge electric draw, one that is sorely needed
> due to the usual reduced ranges that most EVs suffer in cold conditions.
>
> Is there anything available or adaptable in a small gas powered
> heater? I hear the collective gasp already. Relax. I'm not suggesting
> we burn fuel in or vent exhaust into the cockpit. I'm talking about
> some kind of heat exchanger that can live under the hood, vent to the
> exterior, and burn propane or something for much more efficient
> heating under the most extreme cold conditions.
>
> Given that most auto conversions already have a heat exchanger type of
> heating system, this seems like a good possibility for an
> under-the-hood solution.
>
> I'm sure this has already been done many times, but all I've seen on
> the heating suggestion list are high power electric solutions.
> Wouldn't these electrons be better served for propulsion? Until I have
> range to burn, I hate to use my precious electrons for anything
> besides moving me. I don't even use incandescent lighting any more,
> opting to run Luxeon clusters for the headlights and super bright LEDs
> for the tail, brake and turns.
>
> Is there a fuel based heating solution that might be more effective
> for use in extreme cold conditions?
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX - 801-749-7807
> message - 866-872-8901
>
>
Regards
Richard
---------------------------------
Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger
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On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 17:29:14 +0000, "damon henry"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One of the arguments often used in favor of EV's is the fact that the needed
> electricity CAN come from very clean and environmentally friendly forms of
> power generation.
Biogas production is widespread in germany, especially in bavaria. A lot
of farmers have considerable additional income from energy production.
http://www.ieiglobal.org/ESDVol3No4/biogasrural.pdf
http://www.intuser.net/6/1/renew_36.php
http://www.thepigsite.com/FeaturedArticle/Default.asp?Display=365
Emil
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Thanks everyone for the gvwd info . I'm wondering if the top speed of the
car is taken into account when the car maker is determining the gvwr. I've
been told the 300zx had a top speed of 135mph.
> One of the factors in the gvwr is the size of the brakes. Remember this
> vehicle has to STOP !
> Mike G.
>
This might be one reason for picking hi performance cars to convert.
Everything has it trade offs , My 2nd ev was a Mercury lynx which with 20
golf cart batteries felt like a skate board when going over 50 but out
preformed any thing I've done since in distance , I drove it 90 miles one
time to an EV rally , at 40mph
> Christopher Robison wrote:
>
> >How much of a factor is the vehicle's suspension in determining its GVWR,
> >vs. the strength of the body and/or frame?
> >
> >In other words, with a higher spring rate and stiffer shocks, is it still
> >considered unsafe to exceed the GVWR?
> >
On my Mazda 2 pu I have all the batteries in-between the front and back
wheels , nothing behind the back axel . In an auto cross I know it would
blow away my Mazda 1 pu that has less batteries but has them some of them
behind the back axel
> >How many folks out there have exceeded this value for their car, with or
> >without upgrading the suspension? Is there anyone who has had a "bad
> >experience" from having done so?
> >
> >
> > --chris
Putting bigger springs on is usally the last thing I get to and may time
after the car/truck has been on the road awhile , it alway make a BIG
difference in how the car/truck feels .
steve clunn
> >
> >
> >
> >Mark Farver said:
> >
> >
> >
> >>A vehicle’s GVWR is the maximum weight a vehicle should reach in use,
> >>including the vehicle itself, optional equipment, passengers, cargo and
> >>trailer tongue weight, but not including a trailer. A vehicle’s GVWR
is
> >>established by its manufacturer and should not be exceeded for reasons
> >>of safety.
> >>
> >>So have the car weighed. Then subtract (by estimate or measuring) the
> >>weight of parts pulled out of the car during conversion (usually about
> >>500 lbs). The difference between the weight and GVWR is how much EV
> >>parts you can add to the car.
> >>
> >>Mark Farver
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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Humans!
F.T.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Great. We may switch from dinosaurs to turkeys now.
> Wonder what's next...
>
> Victor
>
> damon henry wrote:
>
> > One of the arguments often used in favor of EV's is the fact that the
> > needed electricity CAN come from very clean and environmentally
> > friendly forms of power generation.
> >
> > I just ran across this article. It looks like there is a new turkey
> > dung power plant coming online in Minnesota.
> >
> > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6725508/
> >
> > damon
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Hello to All,
David Roden wrote:
> On 17 Dec 2004 at 12:49, Tim Clevenger wrote:
>
> > Do hair dryers self-limit when the fan dies?
>
> Unfortunately, no. I know this from experience.
Actually, the answer is yes. They all come with a small temperature switch
in-line with
the heater coils that opens on over-temp conditions, such as when you hold your
hand over
the air inlet, or in regular use, your hair dryer accumulates too much link,
hair, and
other airborne debris at its intake screen to where it starts to restrict
airflow through
the machine. The problem for EV use is, that the DC power source will instantly
arc
through then weld together the small contacts of this switch the first time it
tries to
open, rendering it a solid conductor.
See Ya......John Wayland
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Hello to All,
A while back, when responding to modular charger and battery questions, Lee
Hart wrote the
following chart:
cost power range life
---- ----- ----- ----
Hawker, Optima AGMs high high low low
Concorde AGMs medium medium medium medium
Flooded golf cart low low high high
With all the well deserved respect to my friend, I had to laugh at this. As I
read the
above, I contemplated the baby Optima YT now 8 years old, still working
perfectly, and
currently under the hood of my Honda Insight serving duty as a temporary 12V
system
battery until I get a new Optima group 51 Yellow Top for it, a recent new
product made
especially for Honda cars. I also had to laugh, as I went out to Blue Meanie
and took it
for a spirited drive, with a tire spinning launch where the 5 year old Optimas
instantly
gave 1000+ amps. I've had these in the car for about two years, but they were
originally
part of the 17 Optimas that lived in the belly of my former Zombie tow rig,
the old Ford
AreoStar van....hence, the five years in service bit. I get more range per
charge with the
Optima pack in Blue Meanie, than when it used to have (a long time ago) the
same or at
least similar weight in flooded type batteries, and yes, this includes golf car
batteries from
way back in the early 80s!
The only time golf car batteries give the high range Lee lists, is when they
are a part of
a HUGE battery pack, normally 1200 lbs, or so, and, when they are treated to
'easy street'
when used with moderate controllers in EVs with lethargic performance....any
battery
'should' give high range under this scenario. As used in the immense battery
pack for Red
Beastie, nearly 2500 lbs. of them, they gave fantastic range, and, fantastic
life...they
should have, the controller was limited to just 450 amps, and in their
series-parallel
arrangement of 120 volts, each T-105 Trojan golf car never, ever, saw more than
225 amps
of current draw. On steady cruise on level ground at 55 mph, each battery was
only asked
to give 65 amps or so...that's 10 amps 'less' than their reserve capacity rate.
When golf
car batteries are forced to try and keep up with powerful AGMs like Hawkers,
Optimas, and
Orbitals, they fall on their face, they simply can't compete, they get hot,
they spit,
ooze, and corrode anything within their vicinity, and their range per charge is
anything
but impressive, and, their life span is dramatically reduced.
I also had to laugh when considering Hawkers and Lee's grouping of them along
with
Optimas, as 'low range' and 'low life'. The Hawkers I used in White Zombie
survived things
golf car batteries could only dream of being capable of! Using 28 of the tiny
13.5 lb.
brick sized Hawkers (the same size as those wimpy little batteries that most
scooter come
with) as the 336V power pack for White Zombie, they were subjected to 750-800
amps current
draws and 200+ amp dump charges track side, most of their life! Amazingly too,
after
repeated abuse year after year, they lasted and lasted. Oh sure, I blew up
quite a few of
them...even melted them together as a fused mass of rubble once :-) With just
378 lbs. of
batteries in this car, it could do 12 miles range...show me 'any' flooded
battery pack of
the same weight, that can do that, when driven as a normal car, not crawling
around at 35
mph.
The point of this email though, is the fun scenario that happened at work this
past week.
Because most of the Hawkers I have used and abused, now for 8+ years, are still
hanging
around, still not corroding anything, still able to sit l-o-n-g periods of time
and be
ready to deliver BIG currents, I keep four of them on board my forklift service
truck. On
several occasions, I used two of them wired at 24V, as an emergency jump
starter for
cranking over the V8 diesel engine of this truck, when its pair of large 12V
AGMs got
sucked down too far for one reason or another and were nearly stone dead. I
purposely use
an alligator lead jumper pair of smallish gauge wire for such an unorthodox
jump-start
affair, to act as series limiters. Connecting them up to the pooped-out starting
batteries, would sag the 24V worth of Hawkers down to ~ 18V while delivering
200+ amps
(LEM clamp-on meter there to monitor things) into the tired 12V starting
batteries at
around 13.5V ....yes, the small gauge jumper set gets real hot! The jump charge
though,
only takes 30 seconds, and right about when they small cables are about to
catch fire, I
pull the Anderson quick disconnect. The twin starting batteries get boosted in
a hurry and
the big 'ol cranky diesel spins over swiftly and fires to life! Until I got a
brand new
set of Dekas installed for this truck, I used this fast Hawker powered charger
on several
occasions....amazing, that 8 years old, tiny and abused Hawkers can still
deliver this
kind of performance!
This, however, is still not the subject of this weirdo email of mine.....
Here's the latest and greatest feat that these Hawkers delivered. When new
forklifts
arrive at our work facility, they are usually chained down on our BIG tractor
flat bed
rig. If only one or two are being delivered, they sometimes arrive in the back
of a road
going tractor-trailer rig, minus their heavy batteries. Still, a new Crown
forklift weighs
4000-5000 lbs, even without its 2500-3000 lb. battery. To get them out of the
trailer, we
use a powerful Crown rider pallet jack by simply driving it up and into the
trailer, and
with the stout forks under the new forklift we employ the hydraulic lift power
and raise
the forklift up a bit. We then back out with the massive load in tow. The other
morning
however, as I was about to leave the shop for my service call work day, I was
summoned
over to the dock area to help with a problem. A trailer was docked at a higher
than normal
angle, and when the rider pallet jack had lifted the forklift load and was
backing out,
the underside of the forks had jammed against the dock plate. The powerful
series wound
motor of the pallet jack could only sit there and smoke its drive tire in vain,
as with
5000 lbs. of an FC4000 Crown forkilft bearing down on its forks, all motion had
ceased.
The forklift was forks forward in the trailer, so its twin front drive tires
were in solid
contact with the trailer floor, but without its battery installed, it could not
be used to
help with the problem. Additionally, there was no way to use another forklift
to get and
lower-in a battery in the tight confines of the trailer. A set of 2/0 extension
cables in
the shop were not long enough to reach past the pallet jack and deep into the
trailer,
either. About the time they were ready to make up a second 2/0 jumper set in
the shop, my
younger coworker I've been instructing the past few weeks recalled all my
rantings and
teachings about EVs, batteries and such, and blurted out, "Hey John, get some
Hawkers!"
This immediately brought laughter from some of the old timer forklift wrenches,
because
they had seen these tiny old batteries in the back of my service truck, and
although they
had heard about their amazing power ability, they really didn't believe it. One
of them
commented, "Yeah, like 'those' can move all this steel!' I loved it, because I
knew with
absolute certainty, that the little batteries that could....could!
With help from my younger less doubting friends, we grabbed four of the Hawkers
and placed
them in the cavernous hole where the massive industrial lead acid battery
normally goes in
the Crown forklift. We inter-connected them with short thick gauge cables, then
using
some Anderson-to-Anderson adapters on hand we plugged the 48V Hawker pack into
the new
forklift....this was all accompanied by laughter and a few sneers form the
truck driver
and others, but most of the fork lift wrenches were watching in anticipation.
Turn the
key, the dash lights lit up, and with a mighty spin of the drive tires, the
powerful Crown
forklift was alive and effortlessly pushing itself and the high centered pallet
jack out
of the trailer. Once free from the trailer and the pallet jack, the forklift
was driven
through the shop and parked. Yes, the four 8 year old Hawkers sagged down, and
the truck
slowed near the end of its travels, but the deed was done!
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'd have to say Hawkers have very long
life!
See Ya........John Wayland
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