EV Digest 3974
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV costs of Long Range EV with decent performance?
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New EV!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: splitting hairs, Rog V Rich.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by Chimer Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) EVDL Razzie Awards?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Ampabout ... cheaper by the pallet
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Lack of knowledge of the law (physics, et.al.) is no defense for
breaking them
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: splitting hairs, Rog V Rich.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I don't know where this "Hawkers need high current
> charging" Myth comes from.
I believe it results from the fact that Hawker themselves recommend a
*minimum* charge rate for their batteries, and that people who have used
them with chargers that did not satisfy this minimum recommendation
have, in fact, experienced premature failure while others using
appropriately sized chargers did not.
> It certainly is not true.
Your opinion is a valid as anyone else's, but it is just an opinion
until you supply data to back it up.
> They are just simple PbLa AGM batteries. Light charges, heavy
> charge rates, it doesn't matter.
Nonsense. Hawker is not the only battery manufacturer who specifies a
minimum charge rate for their PbA batteries. US Battery considers the
minimum initial charge rate important enough for their flooded product
that it becomes a warranty issue if you use a charger that can't satisfy
their recommnedations. Others on this list have suggested that YTs seem
to respond well to high charge rates ("opens up the pores of their
plates", etc.). Yes, you can charge a PbA battery quickly or slowly and
still charge it, but there is definitely evidence indicating that how
you charge that battery will affect the cycle life it delivers.
> oH and I do have a hawker to test should we need to end this Myth....
You won't end any myths with a single Hawker. It would take a minimum
of 2 just to try to show if there is any difference in cycle life due to
repeated high or low rate charging and a much greater number before the
observations have any statistical significance at all.
> And the Hawker site does not recomend the use of Equalizers,
> Well this I can tell you from experiences, they certainly do!
> In fact Mr. Plasma Boy John Wayland can back this up. As... he
> has shot of Me doing the Rudman Regulator dance.. manually
> before a race. That old Hawker pack in the back of the White
> Zombie was on of the worst equalized packs I have tried to
> bring on line. As I recall John a pretty good day at the
> track , After I dialed them in.
I'm not aware of any battery manufacturer who recommends the use of
equalisers, so this is no specific shot against Hawker.
Nobody denies that a poorly equalised pack will perform worse than a
well equalised one. This is why the Hawker "Electric Vehicle
Application Handbook For Genesis Sealed Lead Batteries" has a section
devoted to use of their batteries in long (>24 cell) strings and
specifically describes how and why imbalance can occur and what
preventive measures to take.
Perhaps if John had charged his Hawkers according to Hawker's
recommendations they would not have been so far out of balance by the
time you finally got your hands on them? (I suspect that due to the
occasional fried battery and its replacement, and the abuses of drag
racing that it would have been quite difficult for John to keep it in
balance no matter what, though some form of equalisers/regulators may
well have improved the odds).
> 300 to 500 amps of 120v to
> keep up to traffic on a slight grade, is still going to push
> the Floodies into their bad zone. The flip side is 150 to 200
> amps from 40 lbs AGMs would not even wake them up.
Maybe, maybe not. 300-500A is only 1.3-2.2C rate for a 225Ah T105 while
150-200A is 3-4C discharge rate for a 50Ah AGM. Given that a flooded is
rated for at least 2-4 times the number of cycles as most 50lb AGMs and
that higher discharge rates can reasonably be expected to impact cycle
life for both types, it is not all certain that the AGMs would outlast
the floodeds in this case. The theory is good, but we need some real
world data to back it up.
> Oh yea I got 6.7Kw out of the 19 Orb stack on the monster
> charger Sunday night... I ran a 5Kw load down to a 10 volt
> trip, then ran a 1Kw load until the 10V trip hit again.
> That's 352 watt hours at a 20 to 25 amp loading. Bat temps
> where in the low 60 deg F range.
At the 190V endpoint, 5kW is 26.3A and 1kW is just 5.26A. If the loads
were more or less constant power, then these are the *maximum* load
currents the pack saw.
> 352 watt hours is very good for a single 40 lbs AGM.
I don't know why you think this. I've shown data proving that at a
constant 23A discharge to 10.5V (1.75V/cell), not the lower 10V
(1.67V/cell) you tested to, one can expect well over 400Wh from old,
abused YTs at the same low 60F temperature.
I don't at all understand why you think it is "very good" that you can
get 352Wh out of a more-or-less fresh (they've got several cycles on
them now) Orbital when you have to discharge to an abusive 10V/battery
to do it, and have to then draw them down at ~5A to this abusive level
to suck even that many Wh out of them.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence and All,
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jerry can you give the specific model of Saft
> battery you are talking about.
The only difference in their 100amp EV models is
auto water and either air or water cooling.
I'd go with the auto water and water cooling for
fast charging ability in the summer in Fla. In SF, you
may not need water cooling.
I'm not sure of the exact model number. But they
price on about $550kwhr of rated power though they put
out about 10% more than that.
If 3-5 or so people got together and bought a
bunch, you might get a better price and save on
shipping or have them dropped shipped by SAFT.
If you bought that many, say 5 packs of 20 for
120vdc, 12kw packs, they might make you or someone
else a dealer!
> I am thinking some Chevy sprints are as light as a
> CRX. If these batteries
> are not much more than 7 inches high you could make
> a back battery box and
> keep the four seats in a Chevy Sprint. Lawrence
You could but air drag is going to be a problem
over 50-55mph for a long range freeway commuting EV.
Around town with short bursts of freeway it would be
cool though. It's real light and strong, easy to work
on. With a monochrome paint job, mags it would look
good too.
The CRX was made in a very lightweight, 50+ mpg
econo version called the HX or HF I think that has
less soundproofing, lighter, lower drag parts and very
good aero base to start with. Better parts
availability for the CRX.
The CRX and the Sprint fought over having the
highest EPA fuel mileage for yrs, changing places as
they fought, made for some interesting cars.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
> Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 6:16 PM
> Subject: EV costs of Long Range EV with decent
> performance?
>
>
> > Hi James and All,
> >> Once I move my commute will drasticly change. It
> >> will go to a 75 mile
> >> round trip with about 1/2 of that being 55 zone
> and
> >> the rest being
> >> "city" driving. That would mean a car that has a
> >> range of 90 miles in
> >> *any* weather (without recharging) *AND* that can
> go
> >> about 40 miles of
> >> that at "highway" speed.
> >>
> >> So am I spitting into the wind or is this
> possible
> >> to do. Now by
> >> possible, I mean can it be done for a price that
> I
> >> can afford to pay. I
> >> know if I wanted to spend 20k on a Lithium Ion or
> >> other "Superpack" I
> >> could do it. But I'd like to do the whole
> project
> >> for not more than
> >> 10-12k (plus the donor car).
> >>
> >> So am I dreaming?
> >
> > Depends ;-)
> > Easily if you design, build from scratch. But
> for
> > most people, that's not going to happen.
> > To keep prices low, you need a light, aero car
> > that can be made lighter, more aero.
> > The 93 MR2 fastback would be a good starting
> > point. Or an early RX-7 before they porked out.
> And of
> > course, a Karman Ghia or an early CRX.
> > Then get their wt-hr/mile down below
> > 125wt-hrs/mile with low drag tires, aero mods,
> ect.
> > Buy 15kw of Saft ni-cads for about $8,500 with
> > it's watering system to supply the juice and it
> should
> > do it easily.
> > If you really do the drag reduction right like
> > John Bryan did, a 10kw pack would do, saving
> money,
> > weight. You could start with a 10kw, $5,500 pack
> and
> > increase it if, when nessasary.
> > Say a 120-144vdc, 100amphr pack would get you
> > 100-150 miles peak so easily do your range needs
> all
> > yr round.
> > With an 8" motor, a curtis controller, ect you
> > should be able to get under $12,000 if you do most
> of
> > the work yourself.
> > $12 grand is a lot of money but not for a 100+
> > mile EV with batts that last for 20 yrs.
> > If I was going to pay that much for a car, I'd
> > build an EV instead.
> > Or do it in lead with a Carmaro, they are light
> > for their strength after the engine comes out and
> can
> > be easily made aero and have lightweight tilting
> > fiberglass front clips, ect available.
> > In the near future gas will get much more
> > expensive and electricity is cheaper comparatively
> now
> > and by far our most secure energy source.
> > At 100wthr/mile, electricity is only
> $.01/mile!!!
> > Compared to gas prices even now, that's a bargin
> and
> > will pay back in gas savings at 125wt-hrs/mile, 75
> > mpd, about $6/day or more, completely in 6.66 yrs
> at
> > $2/gal and it should last another 15 yrs after
> that
> > with maintaince, saving even more. YMMV!!!
> > So the question is can you, we, not afford EV's
> > when designed, built right?
> > Do the math and show your wife, she'll be
> pleased.
> > I got into EV's to save money and they really
> can
> > if a little thought is put into it. There is no
> > reason that an EV can't be 1/2 the total costs of
> an
> > ICE car the same type, age.
> > HTH's,
> > jerry dycus
> >
> >>
> >> James
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe it results from the fact that Hawker themselves recommend a
*minimum* charge rate for their batteries, and that people who have used
them with chargers that did not satisfy this minimum recommendation
have, in fact, experienced premature failure while others using
appropriately sized chargers did not.
This has not been my experience, nor the experience of two other
Magnecharger owners of Electricars. Charging a long string of Hawkers at
20amps using the Hawker specs will cause them to dry out. Over on the
US_Electricar list, the guys with the longest running batteries (ie:
years) use the Dolphin charger only (2.5ah).
Now, this might be masked by the fact that when you brake on a highway
exit ramp you can charge the pack at 150amps (at 350 volts) for 5-10
seconds with regen; perhaps that is enough to blow the batteries back
into shape.
Perhaps if John had charged his Hawkers according to Hawker's
recommendations they would not have been so far out of balance by the
time you finally got your hands on them? (I suspect that due to the
occasional fried battery and its replacement, and the abuses of drag
racing that it would have been quite difficult for John to keep it in
balance no matter what, though some form of equalisers/regulators may
well have improved the odds).
If John charged his pack according to Hawker's specs, I can and will bet
that he would find some batteries at 14 volts and some at 16+ volts. He
would also find that the 16v batteries are the lightest, and that the 14
volt batteries are heavier. He will find that he is charging that 16
volts at way more than C/20 rates since his charger will only see the
aggregate voltage. Ultimately he will see his pack perform like a rocket
for the fist C/2 ah, then fall like a cement block.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well Said...
This backs up my notion that it's a myth... unless you are doing back up
lighting and UPS work where they may be in standby trickle charge for their
entire shelf life.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 10:49 AM
Subject: Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
> > I don't know where this "Hawkers need high current charging" Myth
> > comes from. It certainly is not true. They are just simple PbLa AGM
> > batteries. Light charges, heavy charge rates, it doesn't matter.
>
> The only thing I've heard (and I've been told this by some NEDRA racers)
> is that if you only use Hawkers lightly then then only trickle charge
> them at an amp or two, that sulfation microstructures will begin to form
> in the AGM substrate and that over time, these microstructures can grow
> to the point that a cell gets shorted.
>
> I've also been told that a "decent" charge or discharge rate "every once
> in a while" will break up these microstructures nicely.
>
> I don't think this comes into play when using Hawkers to push a car or
> anything higher powered. I think it only comes up if you are using
> Hawkers on a gutless low power scooter or gutless low power bicycle with
> low power trickle rate recharging.
>
> Please feel free to correct any of these notions. As I said, this is
> hearsay for me anyway. 8^)
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX - 801-749-7807
> message - 866-872-8901
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I already have....
Nick is a owner of a PFC30.
I don't claim 12000 amps though!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Niessen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: New EV!
> But the good news is you only need two of them. Too bad Rich doesn't get
> to build you a charger.
>
> At 12/22/2004 09:07 PM, you wrote:
> > > I just bought a 300 HP motor off Ebay that can run on 24 volts, and
NEVER
> > > needs to be recharged!
> > >
> > > I'm just waiting for shipment now.
> >
> >So now all you need are batteries that can put out 12000A and you'll be
set.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I checked the bid activity for this item and it is extremely bizarre. On
Dec, 20th karnesdynorev upped his own bid of $130.00 to $1001.00 in seven
more bids against himself. This fish is really getting smelly.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
I asked to see his ET time slip and still have not received an answer
either.
Roderick Wilde
He hasn't answered my question yet. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dee Dreslough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
Harris, Lawrence wrote:
It's gone - removed by eBay...
Lawrence
<snip>
It's back!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6737&item=4512963146&rd=1
I asked him a question...maybe he means to make a hybrid car? That the
old engine generates the power to the electric motor?
Well, we'll see how it goes... There's no way in heck I'm bidding on it,
but I'll keep asking questions until my curiosity is satisfied. :)
-Dee
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OH good I see the Roger is out to split my hairs again...
I have been expecting this....
comments inserted, agreed points deleted for,. the benifit of our band
width.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 12:22 PM
Subject: RE: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
> Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I don't know where this "Hawkers need high current
> > charging" Myth comes from.
>
> I believe it results from the fact that Hawker themselves recommend a
> *minimum* charge rate for their batteries, and that people who have used
> them with chargers that did not satisfy this minimum recommendation
> have, in fact, experienced premature failure while others using
> appropriately sized chargers did not.
>
> > It certainly is not true.
>
> Your opinion is a valid as anyone else's, but it is just an opinion
> until you supply data to back it up.
I done a bit of charging, funny I have not seen the effect...
Also Minimum may be in the Ma range... Kinda a moot point when I sell 5Kw
chargers as my smallest machine, and most EVers charge at over 1Kw.
My opinion is based on a few years of EV type charging and building
chargers.... My opinion is a LOT more valid than most.
The point is some folks think you HAVE to charge Hawkers at high rates...aka
1C+. My rebuttal is you don't have to.
>
> > They are just simple PbLa AGM batteries. Light charges, heavy
> > charge rates, it doesn't matter.
>
> Nonsense. Hawker is not the only battery manufacturer who specifies a
> minimum charge rate for their PbA batteries. US Battery considers the
> minimum initial charge rate important enough for their flooded product
> that it becomes a warranty issue if you use a charger that can't satisfy
> their recommnedations. Others on this list have suggested that YTs seem
> to respond well to high charge rates ("opens up the pores of their
> plates", etc.). Yes, you can charge a PbA battery quickly or slowly and
> still charge it, but there is definitely evidence indicating that how
> you charge that battery will affect the cycle life it delivers.
You want to get some specifics on that??? What does US B consider a minimum
charge rate? and why?
And is it something we should worry about when we are charging at between 5
and 75 amps.?
What's a high charge rate???? compared to the the labeled Amphour rate????
I bet there are few folks out there who have charged Yts faster than I have.
OR Hawkers...
>
> > oH and I do have a hawker to test should we need to end this Myth....
>
> You won't end any myths with a single Hawker. It would take a minimum
> of 2 just to try to show if there is any difference in cycle life due to
> repeated high or low rate charging and a much greater number before the
> observations have any statistical significance at all.
Because the test would require doing a full life cycle test, and firmly held
parameters or somebody like you would blow holes in the data!!
> Nobody denies that a poorly equalised pack will perform worse than a
> well equalised one. This is why the Hawker "Electric Vehicle
> Application Handbook For Genesis Sealed Lead Batteries" has a section
> devoted to use of their batteries in long (>24 cell) strings and
> specifically describes how and why imbalance can occur and what
> preventive measures to take.
Long 24 cell strings.. hummm that's 48 volts....That's about 1/3 the EVers
average length.
I have had clients tell me very clearly that Hawkers don't need
equalizers... While I have measured Why they need them.
Again, I am sure the battery folks at Hawker would agreen with me should
they see the entire data and reasons, it's the customer that thinks they
simply don't need them.
And then death happens at 200 cycles.... and they want to know why.
>
> Perhaps if John had charged his Hawkers according to Hawker's
> recommendations they would not have been so far out of balance by the
> time you finally got your hands on them? (I suspect that due to the
> occasional fried battery and its replacement, and the abuses of drag
> racing that it would have been quite difficult for John to keep it in
> balance no matter what, though some form of equalisers/regulators may
> well have improved the odds).
What John needs to remember is a couple weak batteries can cost him many %
of his battery pack's peak power potential.
Equalization is not just for battery health, it's also for for getting that
record setting time slip.
To be polite John's pack have always suffered from the "run hard and put
away wet" abuse. He's getting better with a voltage regulated charger....I
suspect this is why he's getting a couple of years of life
from his packs now.
John's great Hawker packs, Were in thier prime years before I had a PFC
charger to hand to him. We were both doing Variac chargers , and other less
elegant charging Schemes, When his pack was being greatly abused. Denver
....89 or 99 comes to mind.
>
> > 300 to 500 amps of 120v to
> > keep up to traffic on a slight grade, is still going to push
> > the Floodies into their bad zone. The flip side is 150 to 200
> > amps from 40 lbs AGMs would not even wake them up.
>
> Maybe, maybe not. 300-500A is only 1.3-2.2C rate for a 225Ah T105 while
> 150-200A is 3-4C discharge rate for a 50Ah AGM. Given that a flooded is
> rated for at least 2-4 times the number of cycles as most 50lb AGMs and
> that higher discharge rates can reasonably be expected to impact cycle
> life for both types, it is not all certain that the AGMs would outlast
> the floodeds in this case. The theory is good, but we need some real
> world data to back it up.
>
This is the crux to the whole question, Can a set of good AGMs, charger and
Regs, outperform, and out range and out cycle a Set of Golfcart T-105s if
properley taken care of?
The idea is to get range AND performance AND cycle life.
As Otmar and I came to the shouting conclusion.... it all depends on the
cycle life... but it's still too close to call, Even with pages of
engineering data. In a light load range test with as little amps as possible
the 105 pack will humliate the AGM pack. With moderate loads, and some hills
the two packs aproach the same range, and cycle life, With heavy sporting
lunges at Every light, the AGM outperform and out cycle and out range the
same 1000 lbs flooded pack. On road life, is pretty heavy duty, If you
expect to get power, you put yourself and the cycle abuse with the majority
of EV users. You might just find that the AGMs can out live and out cycle
the floodies.
> > Oh yea I got 6.7Kw out of the 19 Orb stack on the monster
> > charger Sunday night... I ran a 5Kw load down to a 10 volt
> > trip, then ran a 1Kw load until the 10V trip hit again.
> > That's 352 watt hours at a 20 to 25 amp loading. Bat temps
> > where in the low 60 deg F range.
>
> At the 190V endpoint, 5kW is 26.3A and 1kW is just 5.26A. If the loads
> were more or less constant power, then these are the *maximum* load
> currents the pack saw.
>
They were constant, it was the test that I set up.
> > 352 watt hours is very good for a single 40 lbs AGM.
>
> I don't know why you think this. I've shown data proving that at a
> constant 23A discharge to 10.5V (1.75V/cell), not the lower 10V
> (1.67V/cell) you tested to, one can expect well over 400Wh from old,
> abused YTs at the same low 60F temperature.
The end of testing is met when the Lowbatt LED on a set of MK2B Regs is lit.
This happens when ANY battery goes below the set point. I have all mine set
to 10 volts. In This pack, I know the lowest batttery, I checked the setting
and it tripped at 10.05 volts.
The next runs will be constant amps until I hit the Lowbatt, then constant
voltage until 5 amps light the LED. One I crank up the amps, then I use the
voltage control mode so I don't have to hover over the loader, and not total
abuse the pack. I get distracted a LOT and Phone calls come in. And if I
leave the gear in constant amps mode, Well 10 volts won't be as low as they
go.....
Clearly... this is going to be automates soon.
>
Uhhh yea try 19 batteries at a time Roger, ALL 19 have to be this good or
better.
The total draw is governed by the weakest.... find 19 Yts that can make 400
whrs, Good luck.
Also remember that my 300 watt hour test for dialing in Yts and Orbs is at a
66 amp(750 watt) load each.
I better get more watts at 20 amps of loading.
> I don't at all understand why you think it is "very good" that you can
> get 352Wh out of a more-or-less fresh (they've got several cycles on
> them now) Orbital when you have to discharge to an abusive 10V/battery
> to do it, and have to then draw them down at ~5A to this abusive level
> to suck even that many Wh out of them.
I guess you need some more time abusing Yts and Orbs....
>
Got better numbers, from a 19 battery pack????
Don't think so.
This is a equalization test, and a dump pack for testing the Monster
charger... And it's a very good practical test for the average EVer looking
at AGMs specificly The Exide Orbitals.
Your results may vary, but if you don't know a thing at all about AGMs, this
is s very good place to see and learn from.
I am getting a reliable 6+kwhr out of them. That would be 24 plus miles or
range in Goldie.
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lets keep in mind folks that John's Hawker pack is long dead and gone. Both
DATsuns are on Orbital or Yts right now.
John' racing success has been largley gotten more reliable since he went to
a larger battery that can take his 1400 to 3000 amp stunts and live to tell
about it.
The little hawkers, as impressive as they were, just could not do this even
in thier heyDay. Yes he could go faster with smaller higher voltage Hawker,
Like 1/3 the wieght..But,, then you really have to
keep the batteries in line, with 50 amphours on tap you can drive it to the
strip, race it, and drive it home...
Right now all us NEDRA racers, need to concetrate on reliability... Not
hunting records, but getting more than a hand full of runs a year.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
> > I believe it results from the fact that Hawker themselves recommend a
> > *minimum* charge rate for their batteries, and that people who have used
> > them with chargers that did not satisfy this minimum recommendation
> > have, in fact, experienced premature failure while others using
> > appropriately sized chargers did not.
>
> This has not been my experience, nor the experience of two other
> Magnecharger owners of Electricars. Charging a long string of Hawkers at
> 20amps using the Hawker specs will cause them to dry out. Over on the
> US_Electricar list, the guys with the longest running batteries (ie:
> years) use the Dolphin charger only (2.5ah).
>
> Now, this might be masked by the fact that when you brake on a highway
> exit ramp you can charge the pack at 150amps (at 350 volts) for 5-10
> seconds with regen; perhaps that is enough to blow the batteries back
> into shape.
>
> > Perhaps if John had charged his Hawkers according to Hawker's
> > recommendations they would not have been so far out of balance by the
> > time you finally got your hands on them? (I suspect that due to the
> > occasional fried battery and its replacement, and the abuses of drag
> > racing that it would have been quite difficult for John to keep it in
> > balance no matter what, though some form of equalisers/regulators may
> > well have improved the odds).
>
> If John charged his pack according to Hawker's specs, I can and will bet
> that he would find some batteries at 14 volts and some at 16+ volts. He
> would also find that the 16v batteries are the lightest, and that the 14
> volt batteries are heavier. He will find that he is charging that 16
> volts at way more than C/20 rates since his charger will only see the
> aggregate voltage. Ultimately he will see his pack perform like a rocket
> for the fist C/2 ah, then fall like a cement block.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
shill (shl) Slang
n.
One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe
bystanders into participating in a swindle.
Roderick Wilde wrote:
I checked the bid activity for this item and it is extremely bizarre.
On Dec, 20th karnesdynorev upped his own bid of $130.00 to $1001.00 in
seven more bids against himself. This fish is really getting smelly.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roderick Wilde"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
I asked to see his ET time slip and still have not received an answer
either.
Roderick Wilde
He hasn't answered my question yet. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dee Dreslough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
Harris, Lawrence wrote:
It's gone - removed by eBay...
Lawrence
<snip>
It's back!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6737&item=4512963146&rd=1
I asked him a question...maybe he means to make a hybrid car? That
the old engine generates the power to the electric motor?
Well, we'll see how it goes... There's no way in heck I'm bidding
on it, but I'll keep asking questions until my curiosity is
satisfied. :)
-Dee
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No Ken, it is not too much, It is actually kind of a
nice change from reading the same questions being
posed and answered over and over. The nice thing about
this forum is that it is very easy to delete items one
has no interest in reading. Sending Mr ASE traffic
for his auction is OK. I find it comforting that there
is still such a tremendous underground of interest in
EVs even though they have been abandoned by the
mainstream. Lighten up, have some fun. Chimer
--- Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Don't you think we've given this WAY too much play
> here on the EVDL? I
> mean sure, identify a fraud and all, but at some
> point, all the excess
> free advertising we are giving this bozo is simply
> going to drive
> traffic to his auction.
>
> You identified the fraud and notified ebay. There is
> really nothing else
> to be done. All this discussion and constant links
> to the URL will
> simply serve to send more traffic there.
>
> Just a thought....
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX - 801-749-7807
> message - 866-872-8901
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since the end of the year is nigh, it might be nice to share some EV-related
rants. I'll suggest the following as two things which have bugged me lately.
PZEV - Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle
I know this is an old one, but I'm seeing it everywhere because of this new
"Hybrids in the carpool lane" legislation. Can someone please tell me the
story of how somebody got the idea it was OK to put the word "partial" in front
of the word "zero"? And then it somehow passed review?
EVRental.com
It's bad enough that these guys don't have any more EV's to rent out. But, I
think they're trying to single-handedly change the definition of EV. See this
page:
http://www.evrental.com/resale.html
"Buying a pre-owned EV is as easy as 123", they say. But click on the link,
and you see a list of hybrids and CNG vehicles.
Arrggghhh!
Richard
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/474.html
--------------------------------------
Protect yourself from spam,
use http://sneakemail.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well times have changed. The prices of batteries always goes up,
and how much you can get for a pack that gets tired soon, goes
down to nil.
I bought my current 132 VDC pack of 22 US145 batteries from Jim
Ramos of American Battery in Hayward CA back in Oct of 2003. The
pack is only a year old, but it is getting tired to the point
where it does not want to finish charging at 150 VDC, its using
water, and when you stomp on the accelerator, the performance
is mushy (the emeter winks out, meaning the pack voltage is
truly sagging).
Yup, its time to start eyeballing another pack.
I want to try a different battery this time. The US145's served
me well for the long distance runs to and from Sacramento (160
miles of using public EV charging).
But the added weight, and made me a true lead-sled, and the larger
tire to support the weight pushed me out from going with a low
rolling resistant (LLR) tire type.
If I lose some weight (both in the pack and around my waist),
my EV would run a little more efficient for the mostly around
town driving I am doing. I am not in a position to go on
long trips anymore: financially and I just can't get the
time off.
So I am looking at a battery with less weight and capacity.
This will make changing the pack out, less of a contest. 22
70 batteries times two (take them out, and put them in) is
lifting 3080 lbs of batteries (not good for my high blood
pressure).
I called Jim today to get a price quote. Today is a good day.
Its very quiet at work because the employees were given half
the day off for the Holiday. This gives me the free time to
get a few of my personal tasks/chores done, that I normally
would not be able to do.
Jim quoted me:
$75.52 US145 244ah [EMAIL PROTECTED]
$58.22 US125 235ah [EMAIL PROTECTED]
$53.31 US2200 225ah [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dividing the minutes at 75 amps into the cost of a US125
and them multiply that by the minutes of a US2200
($58.22/132) * 115 =
at the US125 rate, a US2200 would cost $50.72 .
The US125 is better deal.
I asked Jim of these type of batteries, what does he sell the
most. He said the US125's, then the US2200's, and lastly the
US145's. The other traction battery models are available, but
I would not be able to get the lower price because he does not
those in quantity. Its cheaper if lots of pallets are bought
at one time.
Oddly, Jim said the cycles do not increase when I change from
a US145 toward the smaller capacity batteries. This is just the
opposite to what has always been said about traction batteries:
lower capacity = more cycles
high capacity = less cycles
... Has something changed?
Jim chided Trojan by saying, Well they opened a plant in China,
does that say something? ... (this did not sound right, is not
a reason why I will get less cycles with a lower capacity battery).
Jim says unless my tired pack is got really dead ones, I get
nothing
for a pack that is dying before its time. So much for the 2 year
warrenty.
So I am going to check how much money I can spend (I have only
gotten one paycheck since returning to work), make sure of what
type of terminal lugs I have, and spend this weekend making
room for 22 batteries to be dropped off at my place (Jim
usually delivers in 2 to 3 weeks). By that time, my pack should
be on its last leg.
I plan to see if I can get my old pack to the SJEAA chapter's
battery man Don Gillis. He goes through them for both battery
data, and well as finding one or two that still have a little
life left in them. Someone with one weak battery can run for
6 more months before having to replace the whole pack.
...
No money from UPS on my lost PFC-50. I would like to order
another charger. It would be good to be able to use the public
AVCONs again. Hmmm, ... I will have to bug UPS again.
They sure were quick to take money, but slow to pay it out.
ta
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4512963146
>>>
The link now gives this message:
This listing (4512963146) has been removed by eBay.
So I guess all the EVers saying it was a fraud finally made a difference. And
what little we know of our universe stays intact.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like Ebay caught wind of his scheme.
"This listing (4512963146) has been removed by eBay".
-Ed
--- On Thu 12/23, Roderick Wilde wrote:
I checked the bid activity for this item and it is extremely bizarre. On Dec,
20th karnesdynorev upped his own bid of $130.00 to $1001.00 in seven more bids
against himself. This fish is really getting smelly.
Roderick Wilde
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> This has not been my experience, nor the experience of two other
> Magnecharger owners of Electricars.
I don't recall offhand, but it seems to me that it may well have been
Electricars that exhibited exactly the bahaviour I've described.
> Charging a long string of Hawkers at 20amps using the Hawker
> specs will cause them to dry out.
There are a couple of things going on in your case: you have 2 parallel
strings of 26Ah batteries and a single charger with *no* means of
determining/ensuring that the charge current is dividing equally between
them. 20A satisfies the minimum C/3 requirement for a 52Ah battery, but
that doesn't mean it is appropriate for parallel strings of 26Ah
batteries when one string could be seeing 90% of it and the other just
10%. Don't blame Hawker for a poorly designed installation that they
have no control over.
Furthermore, there is more than one way to kill a battery. All you have
found is that overcharging an AGM will cause it to dry out and will
shorten its life. You have not established that the high rate bulk
portion of the charge shortened or lengthened the cycle life of that
battery, even though its cycle life was ultimately compromised due to
overcharging/venting.
The bulk portion of the charge is *not* what dries out the battery.
During this portion of the charge the voltages of the individual modules
track closely and you do *not* have modules at 16V and modules at 14V
unless you start off with a ridiculously imbalanced pack (I have
performed tests with deliberately imbalanced packs, such as a string of
T105s with an L16 randomly inserted and have not managed to get the
module voltages in bulk to differ significantly).
If you monitor the voltages of the individual modules during a charge
cycle you will find that it is when you switch to constant voltage that
they begin to deviate from one another.
> Over on the US_Electricar list, the guys with the longest
> running batteries (ie: years) use the Dolphin charger only (2.5ah).
What counts is not calendar life but cycle life. It is possible that
the Electricar parallel string installation affects charging such that
the whimpy Dolphin charger results in longer life than the Magnacharger
for reasons unrelated to the initial bulk charge rate.
It seems to me that the Magnacharger does *not* implement Hawker's IUI
recommendations accurately, and that you personally, as I recall, ran
into trouble when you started tweaking the Magnacharger's programming.
So, I totally appreciate why you believe what you do, however, it is
clear to me that your experience neither proves nor disproves the
desirability of using a high charge rate on a series string of Hawkers
or other batteries. Hopefully, I have been able to clearly explain why
I believe this.
FWIW, when I referred to John possibly having a better balanced pack of
Hawkers if he followed Hawker's recommendations, it was the finish
charge rather than initial charge rate I was specifically alluding to.
The bulk rate has little if any impact on the balance of the pack, and
with John's use of dump charging at the track, his little Hawker pack
almost certainly never had to worry about being bulk charged *below*
Hawker's recommendations! ;^> 20A? 200A is more likely, and this into
a single string of batteries 1/2 the size of yours (1/4 the capacity of
your paralleled strings).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> OH good I see the Roger is out to split my hairs again...
> I have been expecting this....
<GRIN> I figured you would be, but the good news is that we agree on so
much here that few of your precious hairs are in danger.
> I done a bit of charging, funny I have not seen the effect...
I suspect this is because Hawkers have mostly been used in drag racing
machines and the effect that is claimed for the high inrush current is
extended cycle life. Kind of hard to confirm or refute the effect if
you have batteries dying from melted interconnects, and from being
vented, etc. and generally haven't taken care to ensure that the rest of
the charge cycle has treated the batteries well.
Also, until your relatively recent PFC line came about, few people had
access to chargers capable of charging their packs at over the minimum
recommneded initial rate. Seems to me that you are just now about to
put Goldie's first fresh pack in since the release of the PFC chargers;
if they were YTs instead of Orbitals you might just be in a position to
determine if the higher charge rates seem to wake them up more and/or
result in longer cycle life, however, switching from YTs to Orbs will
prevent any clear cut conclusions from being drawn.
> My opinion is based on a few years of EV type charging and
> building chargers.... My opinion is a LOT more valid than most.
No argument there. Not to get into a pissing contest, but just to make
sure we are on the same page: as it happens I've been building chargers
(developing charge algorithms for them) for about the same time as you
(and we shipped several 1000 chargers this month alone).
> The point is some folks think you HAVE to charge Hawkers
> at high rates...aka 1C+. My rebuttal is you don't have to.
Complete agreement here. Hawker recommends a minimum of C/3, so I have
no problem agreeing that 1C+ is not a requirement. I will go one
further and agree that you can charge a Hawker at any rate you like; the
only claim is that if the C/3 minimum is observed (along with the rest
of Hawker's IUI profile), then Hawker claims you will get better cycle
life than otherwise. This is essentially the same claim that USBMC
makes for their product: you can charge at any rate you like, but you
will get better cycle life by observing their minimum inrush
recommendations.
> You want to get some specifics on that??? What does US B
> consider a minimum charge rate? and why? And is it something
> we should worry about when we are charging at between 5 and 75 amps.?
Specifics are that the initial charge rate must be at least C/10 for at
least the first 3-5 minutes of the charge. That is, 22.5A *minimum* for
a 225Ah C/20 rated battery. So, no, we are not talking about mA
thresholds here; this is definitely relevant to EVers charging from 15A
120V outlets or better.
I'm not sure that I am allowed to disclose anything related to the
"why", so I have to suggest that you contact USBMC themselves if you
want/need more information than this.
> > You won't end any myths with a single Hawker.
>
> Because the test would require doing a full life cycle test,
> and firmly held parameters or somebody like you would blow
> holes in the data!!
That's right, someone like me who expects proper test data. ;^>
> Long 24 cell strings.. hummm that's 48 volts....That's about
> 1/3 the EVers average length.
Yep. But 48V seems to be a common threshold used to qualify a series
string as "short" or "long" (Exide/Sonnenschein also use the 48V
threshold). All it really means is that at less than 48V it is not a
big issue while at 48V and above you need to start worrying about it.
I've done the manual regulator dance on 48V strings of YTs.
> To be polite
> John's pack have always suffered from the "run hard and put
> away wet" abuse.
I couldn't have put it better.
> This is the crux to the whole question, Can a set of good
> AGMs, charger and Regs, outperform, and out range and out
> cycle a Set of Golfcart T-105s if properley taken care of?
> The idea is to get range AND performance AND cycle life. As
> Otmar and I came to the shouting conclusion.... it all
> depends on the cycle life... but it's still too close to
> call, Even with pages of engineering data.
Agreed. We need some good real world data. I don't think there is any
question about the AGMs outperforming the floodeds, I think what hasn't
been proven is which comes out on top in terms of cycle life. Crank up
the discharge rate to 1200A or drop it to 75A and the question becomes
easier to answer, but at 300-500A.... hmmm.
> > > 352 watt hours is very good for a single 40 lbs AGM.
> >
> > I don't know why you think this.
>
> The end of testing is met when the Lowbatt LED on a set of
> MK2B Regs is lit.
OK; I do the same thing in my testing, but I have a 6.5 digit data
acquisition box monitoring each module and programmed to shut down the
load (I use constant current rather than constant power) when any
battery crosses a defined threshold.
This means that 352Wh is the *weakest* of your Orbs. We just don't know
what the strongest is. How well balanced do you think they are? Is the
352Wh module a "stinker", or is it pretty representative of the rest?
> I get distracted a LOT
> and Phone calls come in. And if I leave the gear in constant
> amps mode, Well 10 volts won't be as low as they go.....
> Clearly... this is going to be automates soon.
You got that right! ;^> I've seen some pretty scary end-of-discharge
voltages happen *really* quick before we got our load disconnect
automated.
> Uhhh yea try 19 batteries at a time Roger, ALL 19 have to be
> this good or better. The total draw is governed by the
> weakest.... find 19 Yts that can make 400 whrs, Good luck.
<sigh> I received 20 used and abused YTs from Ralph Merwin, and I'm
pretty sure that every one I tested was delivering at least 400Wh once
I'd cycled them a few times. I showed you data for one of these that
delivered over 500Wh (and a peak of 570Wh); do you really think that
that one battery was just unusually good (i.e. better than even a fresh
YT)? I think it far more likely that it happens to be more
representative of what a healthy YT is capable of. If I have time over
the holiday, I'll dig up my test data again and see how many of those
that I tested broke the 400Wh mark.
> Also remember that my 300 watt hour test for dialing in Yts
> and Orbs is at a 66 amp(750 watt) load each. I better get
> more watts at 20 amps of loading.
Yep; we've been through this before. The only test I am commenting on
is the ~25A discharge to 1.75V/cell, which should yield close to the
manufacturer's rated reserve capacity, and in the case of my set of used
and abused YTs seems to be 400-500Wh @ 60F.
> I guess you need some more time abusing Yts and Orbs....
Absolutely!
But conversely, perhaps you need to spend more time charging them
properly!
Sorry, I couldn't resist ;^>
> Got better numbers, from a 19 battery pack????
I believe so, but can't confirm that until I dig out my test data and
confirm if I cycled all 20 and confirm how many of those broke the 400Wh
mark. I'm confident that every one cycled broke the 350Wh mark.
> Your results may vary, but if you don't know a
> thing at all about AGMs, this is s very good place to see and
> learn from.
Yes, and if I am showing you results showing that I can get 14%-42% more
Wh out of used and abused YTs than you can get out of fresh Orbs under
similar test conditions then this could be a very good place for you to
see and learn from also. Maybe the Orbs just aren't quite the battery
that a YT is, but maybe they aren't delivering what they should be
(yet).
I know I don't come close to knowing everything there is to know about
battery charging, but this is my day job and I am regularly in contact
with battery manufacturers and I definitely do glom onto every
interesting charging tidbit I hear from respected sources on the EVDL
such as yourself, Lee Hart, etc. so that I can do my own testing and
incorporate useful bits into the algorithms I develop.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
