EV Digest 3973
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay - A question answered
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New EV! Fun Stuff!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zamboni conversion, thoughts
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Zamboni conversion thoughts
by "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Long Range EV with decent performance?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: New EV!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV costs of Long Range EV with decent performance?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Fair Radio Charger, needs loving home
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Fwd: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Fair Radio Charger, needs loving home
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Long Range EV with decent performance?
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Ground resistance weirdness causing problems
by "MYLES ANTHONY TWETE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: A question answered
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
No offence but the statement "
Now -- from my limited understanding of the laws of the universe
"
is specifically the problem here however just because you dont
understand, doesnt make it any less achievable.
You probably dont understand how to make disprin or what is in it, but
you sure know to take it when you have a headache, cause you know it
works.
I can tell you for sure that the system described can be achieved even
though the odds are the person trying to sell it cant get anywhere near
achieving it, if they could they would surely realise its worth a lot
more than what they seem to think.
I can also tell you that the description they are giving you is pretty
much the way it works, but is also far enough away from the method to
give you no clues as to how its done.
There are 2 ways to pursue this, with "its impossible", or "what would
i need to do this", which leads to "how do i make it".
That means there are 2 ways to read this post "another net loon"
or "does this guy know something i dont", but we all know its
impossible, not that we know what "it" is or how "it" works, so that
makes me a "net loon".
Please dont reply to this on the list the clever people here who cant
figure "it" out dont like to appear less clever so if you have
something to say to this "net loon" send it to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Not
the list.
Garry
-----Original Message-----
From: Dee Dreslough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 22:19:53 -0500
Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay - A question answered
>Okay...Now, I'm no physicist, but the answer I got makes my head hurt.
>:)
>
>[From my Ebay 'Ask a question' form]
>Dear *ddreslough*,
>
>You asked:
>/"Is this a plan for a hybrid, where you're using the old car engine
>to
>charge the 2 batteries and somehow pass the charge through to the
>electric motor?"/
>
>Here's some of his answer, paraphrased:
>"[take a regular car] beef up the starter motor [and use this to start
>forward motion] and give it a means to recharge itself while it's
>running."
>
>(I'm trying to use as little of the answer as possible to avoid
>passing
>out of fair-use territory. I wish I could just post the whole letter.
>
>*le grumble* This is academic discussion... eh. I won't risk it.)
>
>Now -- from my limited understanding of the laws of the universe: This
>might work for a short time in a perfectly flat world - it would just
>run until the batteries ran out of juice to allow the motor to
>overcome
>internal friction between the wheels and the axles and the wheels and
>the road, right? Two flooded batteries vs. a 300hp electric motor
>pushing 3000lbs of car maybe? I don't know how long that would
>last...
>He's based in Florida, which is pretty darned flat, but not *that*
>flat.
>
>Otherwise, this requires an all-downhill situation, I think, to work.
>In
>which case, an orange crate and four roller skates *also* works, with
>no
>batteries involved. Mm..Maybe I should draw up some blueprints of my
>own... :)
>
>-Dee
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Austin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 8:52 PM
Subject: New EV!
> Hey guys, Great News!!
>
> I just bought a 300 HP motor off Ebay that can run on 24 volts, and NEVER
> needs to be recharged!
>
> I'm just waiting for shipment now.
>
> I wonder why the auto companies have not brought this to market?
>
> :)
>
Hey! Keep us posted! Seeya at Woodburn next year!! John Wayland will
be loosing sleep waiting to run the Zombie against your Vehicle" Current
Physics Eliminater" or what other name you come up with<g>!
Gotta see if Amtrak would be interested in say, some 240volt 3000hp
units for the 10 hour NYC Chicago 21th Century Limited, one for each car. So
powerful that they can haul perishable freight hooked on back, to offset
passenger losses.
Cunard Line might like one for the New Queen Mary, when she goes into
the shipyasrd for a retrofit. The Navy, too, gotta drop them a note! And
Canabal Cruises!
Seeya, in FantesyLand!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ev list" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: Zamboni conversion, thoughts
Thanks Bob I will try Jerry Warfield tomorow, your right about all that gas
fumes, our first year at the rink was with a propane unit that we got from
another rink and my Dad got quite sick from the nitric oxide fumes. It sure
is nice now that I am using the converted HB. I believe that there is a
company in Quebec that does conversions but I know little of them, I just
know that mine runs great with the exception that the turning radius is 20+
feet while the Model 400 is only 15 feet and our rink is smaller so I can
really use the tighter machine.
Thanks for your thoughts
Ellery
Hi Ellery;
Glad to be of help! That's what we're here for. The List, yur plugged
into EV land's top help , just a few clicks away. You have a rather exhotic
use , but a darn good one. Most of in the tropical US havent EVer met a
Zanboni in person. Only heard of them from the List, good folks in Canada
mentioning them, what they ARE and what they do.
Will you be doing a model 400, yourself? For the tighter radius? Sounds
like a great in into doing EV's for fun and PROFIT/ A way to get a positive
cash flow, early on, a sorta captive customer base? Not very many Zamboni
Dealers in town, especually electric ones. Oh JOY! Freed from the weight
bugaboo we deal with in cars, stuffing meaningful amounts of heavy batteries
in cars to get a decent range, What's a few hundred extra lbs in a Zanboni?
Captive vehicle? I don't think you drive it across town to another rink, on
the public streets? When it's tired you can pull over and fast charge it,
any friendly 240 volt outlet will do,a PFC -50 will be fine!
Sounds like a great cottage industry, converting Zanbonis to electric,
and coming in cheap enough to actually sell some, or doing conversions on
demand?
Good Luck with your venture!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi again Bob, yes I will be doing the conversion ourselves, my 15 year old son
loves to tinker and today he will pull the gas motor out so we can start on the
adapter plate. I will take it to a machine shop to get the true center after we
get it bolted to the trans, it is a lot of fun. Your right it is much easier
working on a Zamboni then trying to keep weight down and getting all the extras
to work, like heaters etc in a vehicle. The tractor conversion has two curtis
controllers on it that I may use to convert a small truck or car later on or I
may sell the tractor and buy parts that I want. Our winters are cold up here
and I am not sure of all the legal/insurance issues that might arise on a
roadworthy EV. Just some thoughts that I have, not sure if they will get acted
on or not, but it is great to have a real good need and use for a electric
vechicle even though it is a Zamboni.
bfn
Ellery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James if you are really serious you might be a candidate for a real Ni Cad
conversion using Saft NiCads. One way to to do this is of course a pickup
but the problem is NiCad are expensive. I might be possible if you use a
method John Wayland used with an Insight. That means the answer is light &
efficient. He predicted using NiZn. I am sure using NiMh or NiCad would
give simular results. A Honda 600, Fiat or maybe even a two seat version of
a Chevy Sprint/Suzuki might also work. A kit car might work too using a VW
tranny. The lighter the better. Using a small car will keep the costs
down. If you get 500 to 700 pounds of NiCad into one of these little
beauties you might just do it. NiCad might be the best solution. I'd also
look for someone in the area that might be sympathetic to your situation and
let you charge off campus. The other solution would to make a totally
custom frame and load it up with lead. If you could make a two seater that
weighted 1000 pounds lets say and you could hold 1000 pounds of lead you
could do it. That's a bit of a stretch though. It however was done with an
X1-9 Fiat. Good luck. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now he can afford the shipping. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
It was won by an individual in La Canada, California. For $21.09.
Don't that make ya sick!
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
Ford
Merry CHRISTmas
---, Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So did someone win this? Any way to find out the winning bid?
Tim Humphrey wrote:
Sorry for the late notice....
Gov't surplus auction
7800 lbs of SAFT Aircraft starting NiCads - unused, mftd 11/95.
Located in Richmond Va.
Bids must be in by 0800 Eastern, 7 Dec. Can bid electronically.
See item 21 in http://www.drms.dla.mil/catalog/pdf/33-5006.pdf
I have no further information....
--- End forwarded message ---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He hasn't answered my question yet. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dee Dreslough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
Harris, Lawrence wrote:
It's gone - removed by eBay...
Lawrence
<snip>
It's back!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6737&item=4512963146&rd=1
I asked him a question...maybe he means to make a hybrid car? That the old
engine generates the power to the electric motor?
Well, we'll see how it goes... There's no way in heck I'm bidding on it,
but I'll keep asking questions until my curiosity is satisfied. :)
-Dee
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You have posted to the wrong list. I believe you want the Zappy list. 24v
wouldn't push much of anything here. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Austin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 5:52 PM
Subject: New EV!
Hey guys, Great News!!
I just bought a 300 HP motor off Ebay that can run on 24 volts, and NEVER
needs to be recharged!
I'm just waiting for shipment now.
I wonder why the auto companies have not brought this to market?
:)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry can you give the specific model of Saft battery you are talking about.
I am thinking some Chevy sprints are as light as a CRX. If these batteries
are not much more than 7 inches high you could make a back battery box and
keep the four seats in a Chevy Sprint. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 6:16 PM
Subject: EV costs of Long Range EV with decent performance?
Hi James and All,
Once I move my commute will drasticly change. It
will go to a 75 mile
round trip with about 1/2 of that being 55 zone and
the rest being
"city" driving. That would mean a car that has a
range of 90 miles in
*any* weather (without recharging) *AND* that can go
about 40 miles of
that at "highway" speed.
So am I spitting into the wind or is this possible
to do. Now by
possible, I mean can it be done for a price that I
can afford to pay. I
know if I wanted to spend 20k on a Lithium Ion or
other "Superpack" I
could do it. But I'd like to do the whole project
for not more than
10-12k (plus the donor car).
So am I dreaming?
Depends ;-)
Easily if you design, build from scratch. But for
most people, that's not going to happen.
To keep prices low, you need a light, aero car
that can be made lighter, more aero.
The 93 MR2 fastback would be a good starting
point. Or an early RX-7 before they porked out. And of
course, a Karman Ghia or an early CRX.
Then get their wt-hr/mile down below
125wt-hrs/mile with low drag tires, aero mods, ect.
Buy 15kw of Saft ni-cads for about $8,500 with
it's watering system to supply the juice and it should
do it easily.
If you really do the drag reduction right like
John Bryan did, a 10kw pack would do, saving money,
weight. You could start with a 10kw, $5,500 pack and
increase it if, when nessasary.
Say a 120-144vdc, 100amphr pack would get you
100-150 miles peak so easily do your range needs all
yr round.
With an 8" motor, a curtis controller, ect you
should be able to get under $12,000 if you do most of
the work yourself.
$12 grand is a lot of money but not for a 100+
mile EV with batts that last for 20 yrs.
If I was going to pay that much for a car, I'd
build an EV instead.
Or do it in lead with a Carmaro, they are light
for their strength after the engine comes out and can
be easily made aero and have lightweight tilting
fiberglass front clips, ect available.
In the near future gas will get much more
expensive and electricity is cheaper comparatively now
and by far our most secure energy source.
At 100wthr/mile, electricity is only $.01/mile!!!
Compared to gas prices even now, that's a bargin and
will pay back in gas savings at 125wt-hrs/mile, 75
mpd, about $6/day or more, completely in 6.66 yrs at
$2/gal and it should last another 15 yrs after that
with maintaince, saving even more. YMMV!!!
So the question is can you, we, not afford EV's
when designed, built right?
Do the math and show your wife, she'll be pleased.
I got into EV's to save money and they really can
if a little thought is put into it. There is no
reason that an EV can't be 1/2 the total costs of an
ICE car the same type, age.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
James
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Jazz up your holiday email with celebrity designs. Learn more.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Hi EVerybody;
Buddy of mine just called me, he's looking to unload, or sell, his Fair
Radio Charger. It's a rather scarce goodie for basic charging. A Militery
type, cool OD green 60 lb box, with a isolation transformer inside, THATS
why it's so @#$% heavy! Imput 120 or 240 volts, output 0-to about 150 volts
dc, can charge most anything reasonable. NON automatic, 15 amp output, but
that is a bit much if ya don't cut a hole in the top and install a Muffin
Fan for a bit of cooling. A great basic charger no EVer should be without,
until you can come across enough bread to get a PFC-Whatever. They are out
of stock at Fair Radio, so it's a scarcety. He's looking for 50 bux, it's in
Wallyworld, or Wallingford, CT.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I asked to see his ET time slip and still have not received an answer either.
Roderick Wilde
He hasn't answered my question yet. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dee Dreslough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
Harris, Lawrence wrote:
It's gone - removed by eBay...
Lawrence
<snip>
It's back!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6737&item=4512963146&rd=1
I asked him a question...maybe he means to make a hybrid car? That
the old engine generates the power to the electric motor?
Well, we'll see how it goes... There's no way in heck I'm bidding
on it, but I'll keep asking questions until my curiosity is
satisfied. :)
-Dee
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm...
He's in Florida.
He's built numerous EV's.
He can spell.
I wonder if it recharges with a hood ornament windmill.
Sounds like someone we know.
Naaah, can't be. Tallahassee's nowhere near Fort Pierce.
Take no offense Steve, Just havin' some fun!
Merry Christmas
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
>**If** the guy is not trying to defraud,
> what's his setup?
> did he say anything incorrectly in his ad (eg motor HP, number of
>batteries used)?
>"it's fully self contained and charging." Could mean a generator does
the >charging. But he doesn't say that but he doesn't plug it in. What
does >he do about charging?
>Can you pass an emissions test with a generator?
>What does he mean by "no limitation restrictions."?
>He can't spell "strict" and "vehicle" correctly but has no problem >with
"restriction" and "functional". As an ASE tech for 20 years, you >think
he would have no problem spelling "vehicle".
>His ad is not clear and very suspicious.
>In all fairness, he needs to respond to our questions. If not, then we
>should petition eBay to cancel his auction.
>Peter
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 19:19 PM
>Subject: Fwd: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
>
> --- Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > In reading over the ad, did he mean to say "24" car batteries
> > instead of
the
> > printed "2"? If the car moved at all, he could not have done it
> > with
just 2
> > batteries. He could not run the 1/4 mile in 14 seconds on 2 car
batteries.
> > Could he run the 1/4 mile in 14 seconds on 24 batteries?
> >
> > Did he print "300" hp thinking that "30" hp sounds incorrect for
something
> > that should be all powerful? What car owner buys an ICE with just
> > 30
hp?
> >
>
> He wrote;
> "All on 2 car batteries, no plugging it in and no solar panels. and
> most
of all theres no limit
> restrictions, it's fully self contained and charging."
>
> I don't think there's any question about his intention.
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
> Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:08:30 -0800
>
> Now he can afford the shipping. Lawrence Rhodes.......
If anyone knows who bought these, can you find out if they plan on reselling
any?
Thanks
Dave Cover
PS I'm close enough to go pick some up!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't you think we've given this WAY too much play here on the EVDL? I
mean sure, identify a fraud and all, but at some point, all the excess
free advertising we are giving this bozo is simply going to drive
traffic to his auction.
You identified the fraud and notified ebay. There is really nothing else
to be done. All this discussion and constant links to the URL will
simply serve to send more traffic there.
Just a thought....
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: Fwd: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
>
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
> > Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:08:30 -0800
> >
> > Now he can afford the shipping. Lawrence Rhodes.......
>
> If anyone knows who bought these, can you find out if they plan on
reselling any?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
> PS I'm close enough to go pick some up!
>
> Yeah! Me too! Count me in on that. Hava trusty rusty Ford Van to collect
them in!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tim and the List,
I didn't intentionally want to demean Steve or anybody else on the list.
But I guess I did. My sincere apologies.
I have a lot of respect for Steve. He has clobbered together a lot of EVs
while I'm still trying to get my first one on the road.
What I was trying to point out was that auctioner must have seen the word
"vehicle" so many times as an ASE tech of 20 years reading through the
manuals, going to training classes, taking "engineering" courses, etc. why
would he screw up the spelling of a common word to his trade when he would
get harder words like "restriction" and "functional" correct. Also he
misspelled "strick" [ed. strict] but got "restriction" correct. It just
seemed odd. Almost like someone trying to dumb down his spelling smarts in
an arrogant way. That's where I was coming from.
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
>
> Hmmm...
>
> He's in Florida.
> He's built numerous EV's.
> He can spell.
>
> I wonder if it recharges with a hood ornament windmill.
>
> Sounds like someone we know.
>
> Naaah, can't be. Tallahassee's nowhere near Fort Pierce.
>
>
> Take no offense Steve, Just havin' some fun!
>
> Merry Christmas
>
> --
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
Ford
>
>
>
> >**If** the guy is not trying to defraud,
> > what's his setup?
> > did he say anything incorrectly in his ad (eg motor HP, number of
> >batteries used)?
>
> >"it's fully self contained and charging." Could mean a generator does
> the >charging. But he doesn't say that but he doesn't plug it in. What
> does >he do about charging?
>
> >Can you pass an emissions test with a generator?
>
> >What does he mean by "no limitation restrictions."?
>
> >He can't spell "strict" and "vehicle" correctly but has no problem >with
> "restriction" and "functional". As an ASE tech for 20 years, you >think
> he would have no problem spelling "vehicle".
>
> >His ad is not clear and very suspicious.
>
> >In all fairness, he needs to respond to our questions. If not, then we
> >should petition eBay to cancel his auction.
>
> >Peter
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 19:19 PM
> >Subject: Fwd: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
>
>
> >
> > --- Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > In reading over the ad, did he mean to say "24" car batteries
> > > instead of
> the
> > > printed "2"? If the car moved at all, he could not have done it
> > > with
> just 2
> > > batteries. He could not run the 1/4 mile in 14 seconds on 2 car
> batteries.
> > > Could he run the 1/4 mile in 14 seconds on 24 batteries?
> > >
> > > Did he print "300" hp thinking that "30" hp sounds incorrect for
> something
> > > that should be all powerful? What car owner buys an ICE with just
> > > 30
> hp?
> > >
> >
> > He wrote;
> > "All on 2 car batteries, no plugging it in and no solar panels. and
> > most
> of all theres no limit
> > restrictions, it's fully self contained and charging."
> >
> > I don't think there's any question about his intention.
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover needs one for the Nicads he just bought. I am sure he would
take it and he is just down the road a bit. His SAAB 96 is without a
charger.
Otherwise, I will take it!
Seth
On Dec 23, 2004, at 10:59 AM, Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Hi EVerybody;
Buddy of mine just called me, he's looking to unload, or sell, his
Fair
Radio Charger. It's a rather scarce goodie for basic charging. A
Militery
type, cool OD green 60 lb box, with a isolation transformer inside,
THATS
why it's so @#$% heavy! Imput 120 or 240 volts, output 0-to about 150
volts
dc, can charge most anything reasonable. NON automatic, 15 amp output,
but
that is a bit much if ya don't cut a hole in the top and install a
Muffin
Fan for a bit of cooling. A great basic charger no EVer should be
without,
until you can come across enough bread to get a PFC-Whatever. They are
out
of stock at Fair Radio, so it's a scarcety. He's looking for 50 bux,
it's in
Wallyworld, or Wallingford, CT.
Seeya
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
Guys- they are 14Ah cells, FYI. Probably better for e-bike/scooter guys.
Seth
On Dec 23, 2004, at 11:41 AM, Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: Fwd: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: SAFT Nicads (aircraft starting)
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 07:08:30 -0800
Now he can afford the shipping. Lawrence Rhodes.......
If anyone knows who bought these, can you find out if they plan on
reselling any?
Thanks
Dave Cover
PS I'm close enough to go pick some up!
Yeah! Me too! Count me in on that. Hava trusty rusty Ford Van to
collect
them in!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks again for this summary
good things to keep in mind whe building any electric
vehicle
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
1. The "lead sled"
>
> With lead-acid batteries, you're going to need about
> half the vehicle's
> curb weight in batteries to reach 100 mpc. This
> almost certainly
> requires a truck. John Wayland's "Red Beastie"
> Toyota pickup conversion
> is a good example. It has 40 golf cart batteries.
> The motor, controller,
> batteries, and other EV bits needed would easily
> come in at under $10k.
>
> This 50% battery ratio has been achieved in a few
> cars as well. Alan
> Cocconi's Honda is one example; I think he had 26
> Optima batteries in a
> Civic). However, it typically takes rather drastic
> structural mods to
> get any recent car to safely carry this much weight.
>
> 2. The "superbattery"
>
> There are a limited number of higher performance
> batteries available, if
> you really look hard and are willing to
> bargain-hunt. A higher-energy
> battery makes the design of the rest of the car
> straightforward. You can
> get your 100 mpc range from an EV that would have
> done half this on
> lead-acids.
>
> Large nicads are probably the easiest to find. They
> have been used for
> many years in aircraft and other applications. A few
> surplus packs from
> auto company produced EVs are available for sale.
> You can even buy them
> new from Saft, though getting enough to go 100 mpc
> for under $10k might
> be a challenge.
>
> Recently, some folks have bought relatively
> inexpensive large
> lithium-ions from Thundersky. $5k-$10k worth of them
> can certainly give
> you the range. But, it's too soon to say what
> "surprises" these
> batteries may have in store for the pioneers who use
> them. So far, it
> looks like they require an expensive balancing and
> charging system, and
> are not suitable for high-current "performance" EVs.
>
> A few people are trying battery packs composed of
> thousands of small
> cells (like nimh C cells from wrecked hybrid Toyota
> Prius or Honda
> Insights, or lithium-ion A cells from laptop battery
> packs). It's an
> interesting idea, but there are major problems in
> wiring, monitoring,
> and balancing such large numbers of cells.
>
> 3. The "custom-built car"
>
> The major problem with any EV conversion is that
> conventional vehicles
> are just not designed for the purpose. They are
> optimized to be cheap
> and easy to mass-produce -- not to be strong or
> light or efficient.
>
> So, you can do much better with a vehicle designed
> from scratch to be an
> EV. Such vehicles have demonstrated some truly
> astounding range and
> performance. AC Propulsion's tZero sports car,
> Solectria's Sunrise, and
> Bob McKee's Sundancer, and Cedric Lynch's motorcycle
> are a few that come
> to mind. The Sunrise, for example, has gone over 373
> miles on a charge
> at freeway speeds.
>
> But, building a car from scratch is a *lot* of work!
> It is especially
> daunting because the plans haven't been published by
> any of the groups
> or individuals that have done it.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
All your favorites on one personal page � Try My Yahoo!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ditch the pot for an ITS (inductive throttle sensor).
Spendy, but they're worth it.
Myles Twete
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
>
>
>here...whew!
>
> > Hawkers are not
> > long lived batteries unless they have somewhat special treatment. They
> > really need regular high current charging, on the order of 1c or more
IIRC,
> > or they tend to lose capacity long before they should.
I don't know where this "Hawkers need high current charging" Myth
comes from.
It certainly is not true. They are just simple PbLa AGM batteries. Light
charges, heavy charge rates, it doesn't matter.
Though I don't have any problems making chargers that can abuse any battery
that we can find....
I have never seen data that supports high charge rates as being better for
the battery than lower rates. As long as the voltage limits are respected...
So.. I would NOT degrade the Hawkers as NEEDING a high power charger.
oH and I do have a hawker to test should we need to end this Myth....
Yea I know a bunch of you are going to quote Hawkers... published data, But
it does not support the field data.
And the Hawker site does not recomend the use of Equalizers, Well this I can
tell you from experiences, they certainly do!
In fact Mr. Plasma Boy John Wayland can back this up. As... he has shot of
Me doing the Rudman Regulator dance.. manually before a race. That old
Hawker pack in the back of the White Zombie was on of the worst equalized
packs I have tried to bring on line. As I recall John a pretty good day at
the track , After I dialed them in.
>
> Yes, perhaps that's why they and also Optimas give great life for those of
us who like to
> In closing.....one of my forklift work buddies commutes 40 miles to work,
then 40 miles
> back home. He wants to build an affordable electric vehicle that can be
opportunity
> charged at work before the drive back home. He doesn't need a tire burner,
will accept
> tepid performance, and needs range, range, range. His budget doesn't
include expensive
> batteries or an expensive high amp'n controller. I've recommended a 120V
pickup conversion
> using 20 Trojan 6 volt batteries. Another work buddy is also going to
build himself an
> EV...he's ridden in Blue Meanie and has been bitten by EV high
performance....I've
> recommended Optimas, Orbitals, and Deka Intimidators as candidates for his
192V pack for
> his lowered and tricked-out Ghia siting in his driveway, and I've also
recommended a Zilla
> and a Manzanita Micro charger.
>
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
Thanks John for the product endorsement... it all helps.
What needs to be done, is a 1000 lbs of high performance AM battery in a
Light EVA. And then a light foot and a range run. There should be a massive
improvement since the truly high power AGM of the Optima, Exide Orbital, and
Hawkers, and the Dekkas(I need one for some BS ending testing..) have a
Puekert of about 1. This is a LOT better than the 1.25 to 1.28 for the 6
volt floodeds. I have measured 1.05 on Yts, or low enough that less than
500 amp loads don't degrade the capacity much. So... pound for pound(Ok Kg
for Kg) the AGMs should be a LOT more efficient. And as the high power fun
increased the effective difference becomes larger. Not that you get more at
higher amps it's that the AGMs don't suffer as badly as the floodeds. In
fact I have been advocating really high voltage
fun EVs as the possible way out of 2500 lbs of Lead, and no fun. 1000 lbs of
lead, and all the fun you can handle, might out distance the "deep cycle
flooded" Because ... the amp rate that would be needed for the floodeds to
out capacity(RANGE) the AGMs is still too low for any real on road EV
operations. 300 to 500 amps of 120v to keep up to traffic on a slight grade,
is still going to push the Floodies into their bad zone. The flip side is
150 to 200 amps from 40 lbs AGMs would not even wake them up.
Oh yea I got 6.7Kw out of the 19 Orb stack on the monster charger Sunday
night... I ran a 5Kw load down to a 10 volt trip, then ran a 1Kw load until
the 10V trip hit again.
That's 352 watt hours at a 20 to 25 amp loading. Bat temps where in the low
60 deg F range.
Funny data point, was the 6 that were on the cold cement floor, all got to
14.8 volts and hammered their Regs for 10 minutes before the other 13 even
cleared their Lowbatt latches.
10 deg Really made a difference in how they finish their charge. So far I
had to retire one of the batch... and they look like they are now heading to
equalization.
Letting the pack rest for a couple of days, shows some pretty good
selfdischarge variances... This is raising heck with the Reg terminated end
of charge plots....
This draw down is about a 25 amphour stroke. Yielding 6.2 to 6.7 Kwhr.
I added a LOT of copper to the loadbank filter caps... I hope to be able to
hit 10Kw loads on the next discharge pass. 352 watt hours is very good for a
single 40 lbs AGM. As the loading goes up.....
the delivered Kw should go down. Equalizing effects should allow me to pull
more out of every battery before finding the end of any one. Getting the 6
on the floor at the same temp and cycle life as the rest of the pack, should
also allow a longer higher Kw discharge.
Of course the triple PFC75s, are loafing.....I am not punishing the chargers
very hard...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< Now -- from my limited understanding of the laws of the universe: This
might work for a short time in a perfectly flat world - it would just
run until the batteries ran out of juice to allow the motor to overcome
internal friction between the wheels and the axles and the wheels and
the road, right? Two flooded batteries vs. a 300hp electric motor
pushing 3000lbs of car maybe? I don't know how long that would last...
He's based in Florida, which is pretty darned flat, but not *that* flat. >>
Hey, don't belittle your knowledge of the universe! Basic things like
conservation of energy and the other laws of physics you learned in elementary
school still hold true. Someone on the list mentioned a car he could move by
leaving the clutch in and hitting the starter, and that probably worked best on
the flat or downhill, so there is a precedent. If someone is willing to pay more
than a grand for overunity plans, I say the seller just utilized a form of
Social Darwinism to separate a fool from his money. Dee, at least *you* got a
response on your question, so you've trumped the rest of us! I sent emails to 5
of the bidders and the ones who've responded haven't gotten any information
(bidding on something the seller won't tell you anything about? Yeah, Social
Darwinism...).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know where this "Hawkers need high current charging" Myth
comes from. It certainly is not true. They are just simple PbLa AGM
batteries. Light charges, heavy charge rates, it doesn't matter.
The only thing I've heard (and I've been told this by some NEDRA racers)
is that if you only use Hawkers lightly then then only trickle charge
them at an amp or two, that sulfation microstructures will begin to form
in the AGM substrate and that over time, these microstructures can grow
to the point that a cell gets shorted.
I've also been told that a "decent" charge or discharge rate "every once
in a while" will break up these microstructures nicely.
I don't think this comes into play when using Hawkers to push a car or
anything higher powered. I think it only comes up if you are using
Hawkers on a gutless low power scooter or gutless low power bicycle with
low power trickle rate recharging.
Please feel free to correct any of these notions. As I said, this is
hearsay for me anyway. 8^)
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No Peter,
I do not feel that you demeaned anyone on the list. Nor do you owe anyone
an apology....
I understood everything you wrote, as you meant it to be. But, I have this
uncanny and sometimes annoying knack for abstraction.
I just got an idea from what you wrote and came up with a little fun poke.
I too did not mean anything malicious in what I wrote. It was all intended
to be in jest.
If I thought for a second that Steve would take offense at this then I
wouldn't have posted it. But, I don't think Steve is that shallow, and I
hope he got a chuckle out of it. After all he himself has poked fun at his
spelling errors. Heck, even I misspelt "can't".
Now, go buy your wife some EV Parts for Christmas, you'll feel better ;-)
'til she opens them that is. ;-0
(that was another poor attempt at humor)
As far as respect for Steve goes, I couldn't agree with you more!! I never
for a second really thought that this guy and Steve were the same person.
Merry Christmas everyone!!
Hump
> Hi Tim and the List,
>
> I didn't intentionally want to demean Steve or anybody else on the list.
> But I guess I did. My sincere apologies.
>
> I have a lot of respect for Steve. He has clobbered together a lot of EVs
> while I'm still trying to get my first one on the road.
>
> What I was trying to point out was that auctioner must have seen the word
> "vehicle" so many times as an ASE tech of 20 years reading through the
> manuals, going to training classes, taking "engineering" courses, etc. why
> would he screw up the spelling of a common word to his trade when he would
> get harder words like "restriction" and "functional" correct. Also he
> misspelled "strick" [ed. strict] but got "restriction" correct. It just
> seemed odd. Almost like someone trying to dumb down his spelling smarts
> in
> an arrogant way. That's where I was coming from.
>
> Peter
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 11:06 AM
> Subject: Re: perpetual motion snake oil on ebay
>
>
>>
>> Hmmm...
>>
>> He's in Florida.
>> He's built numerous EV's.
>> He can spell.
>>
>> I wonder if it recharges with a hood ornament windmill.
>>
>> Sounds like someone we know.
>>
>> Naaah, can't be. Tallahassee's nowhere near Fort Pierce.
>>
>>
>> Take no offense Steve, Just havin' some fun!
>>
>> Merry Christmas
>>
>> --
>>
>> Stay Charged!
>> Hump
>> "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
> Ford
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