EV Digest 3992
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Ultra Lightweight Low Rolling Resistance tires
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: acceleration (was The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zap-I wouldn't trust them with any EV or their stock!
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Brush help - using drilling guides
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Fw: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers.
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Refined hybrid truck ideas
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Simple First Conversion Query
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Steer-by-wire, was Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) TS cell info, was Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
The weight limits is normally listed on the side of the tires. My tires
states, 2600 lb load at 65 lbs PSI. This means 2600 lbs per tire, or I
could have 10,400 lb car.
You than weigh the car, front and rear and proportion the load to the air
pressure you need.
Then you check the tire deflection by jacking it up so it just touching the
ground. Measure from the ground to the wheel rim. Lets say it read 5
inches.
Now you lower the tire to the ground and lets say it reads 4.5 inches. You
have a deflection of 0.5 inch or 10 percent which is ok, but not the best.
You do not have enough air pressure.
The best running would be between 0.25 to 0.38 inch deflection. This is the
standard used in large semi-truck tires.
I have about 4080 lbs on the rear axils or 2040 lbs per tire, so:
If 2600 lbs load = 65 lbs PSI
Then (2080 x 65) / 2600 = 52 lbs PSI
The deflection should between 0.25 to 0.50 percent. In some tires, this may
be a harsh ride. You could increase it to 10 percent for a softer ride, but
your range will decrease.
Of course these would happen with standard tires, it best to go to a Low
Running Resistance tire that is design for energy savings.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 7:17 PM
Subject: Ultra Lightweight Low Rolling Resistance tires
> We'd need to contact the manufactures and see what the
> weight limits on all the different sizes are:
>
> http://www.moroso.com/catalog/categorydisplay.asp?catcode=10100
>
> http://www.mickeythompsontires.com/strip_et_front.html
>
> http://www.racegoodyear.com/products/racect10.html
>
>
> Example prices:
>
> http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/CategoryDisplay?cgmenbr=361&cgrfnbr=827
>
> Odd how they don't state how much weight they can handle.
> I've seen large 1970's "muscle cars" with big block motors
> running tires like that on the front... I was thinking
> having them on all four corners on a little ol' lightweight
> EV... 4.5" or 5" treadwidth and numerous heights for 15"
> wheels.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, I wrote a couple of spreadsheets for this and put it on my web site:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_EstimatingPowerNeeds.html
One uses GPS data, then calculates the amount of force required to overcome
rolling resistance, hills and aerodynamics. It then summarizes the trip
data. The other I use to compare motors of various sizes for the indented
donor vehicle.
It will be interesting to compare this data to actual data when I finish my
vehicle.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Haskell
Sent: December 29, 2004 6:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: acceleration (was The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!)
Hello,
I have never sent a message to the list, but I have been lurking for some
time.
I have enjoyed this current discussion of flooded golf cart vs. AGM
batteries.
Lee Hart wrote:
"calculate how fast you could do 0-60 mph on 54 kw." and "So, he used a pair
of variable-speed belts, one driving each rear wheel from each end of the
motor. This lowered drive train efficiency (maybe 90%), but continuously
varied the ratio during accelleration to keep the battery current near its
full 500a throughout. This is the version that accellerated the fastest (12
sec as I recall)"
As Lee implied, normally, computing acceleration is not simple, since the
current and voltage and gear ratio all vary during acceleration. However,
for the special case of a CVT that can keep the battery current (and thus
power) constant, computing the acceleration is very simple.
acceleration = speed / time
force = mass * acceleration
power = force * distance / time = force * speed
So,
acceleration = force / mass and time = speed / acceleration and force
= power / speed
time = speed * mass / force
time = mass * speed * speed / power
time = 2400 pounds * 0.4536 kg/pound * 60 miles/hr * 60 miles/hr .....
* 1609 m/mile * 1609 m/mile * 0.0002778 hr/s * 0.0002778 hr/s ....
/ 54000 w
time = 14.5 seconds (assuming no losses)
Assuming 90% efficiency in the motor and drivetrain, that goes up to 16.1
seconds. This seems much more likely that than the 12 seconds Lee
remembers.
However, it may be that we are missing the point here. I used to drive a
1967 VW bug. It was stock, no modifications at all. VW bugs had more than
36 HP by this time, but not a whole lot more.
In town, I doubt any one ever though I was holding up traffic. In fact,
after a little practice with the clutch, I could get away from a stoplight
and get across an intersection about as fast as most other cars and faster
than most. Now, I definitely could not climb a long hill on the interstate
at high speed, I would always be over in the truck lane. But, around town,
it seemed pretty peppy. VW knew that it was low powered, and gave it a four
speed transmission with a low first gear. My stock 67 could always keep up
with slower speed traffic, and higher speed roads tended to have more than
one lane where people could just go around me.
For most people, I think that the time it takes to get across an
intersection, say, 0 to 25 mph, is a much more important measure than 0-60
mph time.
John Wayland, I think Red Beastie had a 9 inch ADC with about a 500 amp
controller? According to some torque curves I found at evparts, this means
you had about 110 ft.lbs. of torque available at zero RPM. The EV album
seems to be down right now, but I recall that a 1995 Toyota might be close
to the base vehicle used to make Red Beastie. This truck (95 Toyota) had a
torque peak of 140 ft.lbs. at 4800 RPM. I think the torque available from
the ICE at low RPMs was much lower that what you had on Red Beastie. So, I
suspect that you could cross an intersection as fast or faster that an ICE
pickup, despite the extra weight. I realize that, on a long hill on the
interstate, Red Beastie would be over in the right lane with the cement
trucks and VW bugs. But around town, I doubt you had anything to apologize
for.
Sorry for the long message, but my point is, for a non-racer who only drives
their EV around town, "cross an intersection" time is a better measure than
0-60 mph time of how quick a car "feels". A well designed EV can use
flooded batteries and have a very good "cross an intersection" time.
Thanks,
John Haskell
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sold my 1984 Electric Fiero to Jim Weirick.
He listed it on the evlist and was contacted
by Gary Star. I told him the stock offer is probably
worthless and that he should get at least enough
cash to cover the cost of a new motor and control.
So, what does Zap do with these EV's?
Anybody seen a red 1984 Fiero EV in Gary's
neighborhood? Just curious, I bought the car in
Kentucky at an auction, it moved to North Carolina,
then Arkansas back to my home state of Ohio then
shipped out to California. I think this EV has more
shipping miles than EV miles!!
Rod
--- Ivan Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was selling an EV and they offered to buy it with
> stock or 50/50. As I talked to him, if I sold it to
> them, they wanted to pay me to fix up completely. I
> told them I wasn't interested. All they know how to
> do
> is sell and promote and put out headlines. I also
> had
> Alex Campbell try to hire me to be one of their EV
> mechnanics, I also told him I wasn't interested. I
> think those guys don't know their stuff, just want
> to
> get rich, and won't listen to the EV owners for
> advice. Give them ten more years and they probably
> won't exist because they would fall on their face.
> The
> only reason they are still around, is because they
> buy
> cheap products in china and mark them up four times
> and later drop the price to sell more. Just a bunch
> of
> rip-offs.
>
> Ivan Workman
> (909) 595-3365
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does any one have a picture of Cedric's Bike or a
Link.
I seem to have missed it in the thread about Cedric's
Bike.
As far as Lever steering goes, California Commuter
used lever steering due to wheel would be in drivers
face and be hard to see through. I did a world record
run in the 80's getting 156 MPG doing a 55 MPH run
from LA to San Francisco. Steering wheel also would
have interfered with cockpit access. And I can also
mention that in the Trimagnum the biggest headache it
trying to squeeze into the cockpit around the steering
wheel even when it is tilted up. Sort of like climbing
a horse while it is standing on a wall with the head
towards the ceiling and the tail on the floor. Lever
steering would be an asset to the design.
--- Paul Compton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > One thing to consider, before building a vehicle
> with lever steering, is
> > the relationship between linear movement of the
> driver's hands and the
> > angular movement of the wheel(s). Lever steering
> works fine for low
> > speed vehicles (like a Bobcat mini tractor) but I
> think you'll find that
> > in order to slow the steering rate down enough to
> prevent you from
> > zig-zagging down the road at highway speeds,
> you'll need 6 foot long
> > levers and really long arms. ;-) Think of it this
> way: a typical car
> > takes ~ 3 revolutions of the steering wheel to go
> from lock to lock. If
> > you multiply the circumference of the steering
> wheel times 3 revolutions,
> > that's the equivalent linear distance that your
> steering lever ends would
> > have to move to have the same steering rate....
>
> We were discussing a motorcycle here and I take it
> you don't ride.
>
> Steering inputs, above walking pace, are tiny in
> terms of angular movement;
> It's more a matter of pressure.
>
> Lever steering has been tried on motorcycles, but it
> feels wrong. The two
> hand controls should move around a common pivot with
> an axis no more than
> about 45 degrees from vertical.
>
>
> Paul Compton
> www.sciroccoev.co.uk
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Dress up your holiday email, Hollywood style. Learn more.
http://celebrity.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> From: Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> We're prepping the motor in anticipation of receiving our adapter.
> Nathan's just got the bell housing off; I have pictures at my website:
> http://judebert.com/wasted_youth/EV/current.html . Since I've never
> seen *good* brushes and commutators before, I have no idea if what I'm
> looking at is normal. Hence the pictures. Please visit and comment.
>
> The unsettling news is that we only have two possible settings for our
> brushes. Reading my EV archives, it appears that we'll need to drill an
> extra set, 10 degrees (or approximately 0.8") in the other direction.
> Horrors. I expect to make a cardboard template of the current holes,
> move the set screws to the neutral position, flip the cardboard, and
> drill new holes. Anybody got any better ideas?
>
> Thanks,
> Judebert
If you do need to drill new holes (and there seem to be differing opinions
about that) , try this:
Remove the screws that secure the brush end cap to the motor. Rotate the
brush endcap to the final position you want it in, and clamp it securely to
the motor ( a couple of bar clamps pulling both end caps together should do
it)
Make up a drill guide bushing using several short ( 1 inch or so) pieces of
telescoping brass tubing (cheap and available from any good hobby shop).
These are 1/64 inch wall, and available in all telescoping sizes from 1/16
to at least 1/2 inch. You should buy the sizes ranging from the smallest
that will fit around your tap drill to the larges that will fit in the
existing clearance holes in the brush end bell. If it's a tight fit in the
clearance hole, that is even better.
After cutting a short piece from each tube, glue these pieces together ( a
bit of epoxy, or even wood glue will do it) so that you now have one
thicker-walled, short piece of tubing. Make sure you deburr the ends,
inside and out. Stick this in one of the clearance holes in the brush end
cap, and use it as a guide to drill the tap hole in the motor casing.
This will adequately locate the tapped hole, so you know it will fit
together. You still want to be careful that the drill is parallel to the
axis of the motor as you drill the hole. If you can set the whole thing up
in a drell press, that would be great, but it will still work with a hand
drill.
Now, tap the hole you just drilled ( or, if the screw is self tapping, just
screw it in). Install and tighten that screw, and drill the remaining
holes the same way.
When you're all done, it would be a good idea to dissassemble it and blow
out any chips.
Good luck
Phil Marino
Rochester, NY
Eventual Electric Echo ( spring '05??)
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
if John has an EV with flooded cells...must be a forklift. I give him
about 24 hours before it's got twin Z2ks running off a high voltage
pack of orbitals and a 12" sub for every 10 pounds of battery :)
seth
On Jan 1, 2005, at 1:46 AM, John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
I'm the proud owner of another EV! It's a yellow three wheeler,
weighs about 7000 lbs.,
has four Prestolite motors, is front wheel drive, and runs off of
nearly 2000 lbs. of
flooded cells.
See Ya........John Wayland
--
'72 Datsun 240Z Electric Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh gees you didn't buy a fork lift did you John? However it might come in
handy if you don't crack the garage floor with it. I found more 30amp 125v
female AC connectors. However they are 7.50 each. At Halted surplus in San
Jose CA. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2004 10:46 PM
Subject: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
Hello to All,
I'm the proud owner of another EV! It's a yellow three wheeler, weighs
about 7000 lbs.,
has four Prestolite motors, is front wheel drive, and runs off of nearly
2000 lbs. of
flooded cells.
See Ya........John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wonder if Rev. Gadget has a pew for those kind of prayers...
I am sure he does if the donation is right. Lawrence Rhodes.........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He is getting 175 miles on 108 pounds of Lithium. That is very nice. The
Vehicle must handle well being so light. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 3:54 AM
Subject: Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
Thunder-Sky lists 3.9kg for their LMP100AHA [what's the difference
between
this
cell and the LCP100AHA model at 3.0kg?], so it must include BMS and
interconnects. What is his charger? He needs ~76V end-of-charge/30A
overall.
ThunderSky have been mucking around with their model designations and
specs.
lately. Cedric is using TS-LP8581A cells at 3Kg each. His charger is a
Zivan
K2 (nom. 48v) from when he had Optimas in the bike. He's got the output
of
an opto-isolator connected accross the voltage contro pot to allow
voltage
limiting on a per-cell basis. Likewise the Brusa controller is prevented
from under or over-charging any cell.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger wrote:
As of this past August, the word from Dr. John Olson of Optima fame is
that 4A is the maximum recombination current an Optima will support
without thermal runaway, and that 2A for 1hr will result in a loss of
less than 1g of H2O even if all of the energy goes into electrolysis.
This statement has been bothering me and now I know why. If you
equalize every cycle you will loose a pound of water every 454
cycles. I don't know what the total weight of water in an Optima or
Orbital is, but I'm sure the largest weight is Pb.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 2:40 PM -0800 on 12/31/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Cedric's reality inspires my daydream: a fully-enclosed bike with enough width
to the teardrop to fully enclose the front wheel, a pair of stabiizer wheels
that swing down near the rear end at anything under 15mph, body like a Rutan
plane without wings or tail for a smooth, uninterrupted surface with no
mirrors, just CCD cameras that feed to monitors on either side of the dash,
plus 2-piece canopy that opens by spring load or pressure cylinders, and
batteries stacked in the centerline frame member (or integrated into the body
if Li-Poly).
In the mind's eye and poorly-scribbled drawings, it gets a frontal area of
<7sq.ft. and Cd =/<0.1. While I'm at it, no traditional handle bars
or steering
wheel, but a pair of levers close to where your hands would normally rest
(adjustable in length), accelerator and brake pedals move fore-and-aft
(non-moving seat), and to top it off, just enough room behind the passenger to
stick an adaptation of a 2kw Honda generator as an APU!
http://www.peraves.ch/ndexe.htm
The Eco does a lot of what you're asking, though it's still run by MC
engine and has largely standard MC controls like handlebars and such.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Shelton wrote:
> OK, I think I've got a good plan-of-action set up
> to get myself on the road to converting my truck, a 4 cylinder,
> 2wd 98 Nissan Frontier that I had originally bought with the
> intention of converting to an EV, to a parallel hybrid...
> The first step(s) are to get the truck as efficient as
> possible...
Wow; that's a very thorough and ambitious list!
To make efficiency improvements, you have to be able to *measure* your
results. Too many people go by the seat of their pants, and there is a
lot of self-delusion ("Yah, I put one of dem dere magnets on my gas
line, and boy it doubled my miles per gallon!")
Unfortunately, accurate measurements are difficult with an ICE. Its fuel
consumption varies so much from so many factors that the small changes
you are trying out get lost in the noise. The only method you have is to
drive for a full tank of gas and see how many miles you got; make a
change; and do it again. But in that time, the weather changed, you
drove different places, at different speeds, the gas pump shut off a
different amount away from "full", etc.
If you can find an instantaneous mpg computer or display for your
vehicle, that will help a lot to cut down the number of variables.
Once converted to electric, it gets much easier to measure actual power
consumption. An E-meter can do it; or you can measure battery volts and
amps yourself and multiply them together to get instantaneous power
consumption.
> 2. Install electric water pump and electric radiator cooling
> fan.
The car makers are doing things like this. Keep in mind that since 100%
of the power is *still* coming from the engine, such measures don't
really change the basic efficiency. The car makers do it because they
can rig things to run off the battery during EPA mpg tests; and then
recharge the battery with the ICE *after* the test. Thus, they are a way
to "cheat" to produce high EPA MPG scores that make no difference in the
real world.
But, if you can "relocate" the time that some heavy load is pulling
power, you can eke a little more economy out of the engine. For example,
shut off the ICE at stoplights and keep all the power accessories
running off the battery. Now you've eliminated the time the engine needs
to run at idle, where it is very inefficient.
> 3. Install a vacuum gauge to monitor engine efficiency.
These don't really work, except to provide a very crude relative
indication.
> 4. Install a tachometer to target most efficient engine rpm.
That assumes you have instrumentation to know when the engine is in fact
most efficient.
> 6. Change to synthetic xmsn fluid to reduce resistance,
> especially in cold weather.
That will help.
> 7. Buy narrower, LRR tires. Inflate with run-flat sealant and
> remove the spare tire.
Good.
> 8. Make and install bellypan to improve aerodynamics.
Good, except with ICEs you can burn up things by trapping the exhaust
heat). You also risk asphyxiation from exhaust leaks.
> 9. Install wheel covers.
Ok.
> 10. Remove passenger mirror.
If allowed by law. If required, a smaller or more streamlined one can be
used.
> 12. Convert all the interior and exterior lights (except head-
> lights) to LEDs.
A lot of work for a trivial gain.
> 13. Insulate cab and tint windows to improve air conditioner
> efficiency. Look into electrically driven air conditioner
This helps a lot in hot weather. Air conditioning is a *big* power user.
Not surprisingly, auto air conditioners are not designed for efficiency.
Home air conditioners are. So, one interesting route is to use a small
home air conditioner, powered by an inverter.
> Conversion of so many components from being run mechanically
> to being run electrically will probably require the installation
> of a high output alternator.
If you use something like an Etek/Lynch/Lemco motor, it can serve as a
high-efficiency generator, starter motor, and electric "turbocharger" to
boost engine power for accelleration or hill-climbing.
> 14. Convert to manual steering or drive the current power steering
> pump with a motor.
Both are possible.
> 15. Make fiberglass rear wheel shrouds.
> 16. Lightweight bumper.
> 17. Aluminum pulleys.
> 18. Aluminum radiator.
> 19. Aluminum driveshaft.
These may make so little difference that they aren't worthwhile.
> 21. My ultimate goal, as far as the ICE portion goes, is to
> convert the truck to diesel. Not only will this even further
> improve mileage, it will also allow the use of biodiesel and
> waste vegetable oil using the kit available from
> Greasecar.com.
Makes sense, if you have a source of fuel.
> Hybridization-
>
> 1. Get a 4x4 front axle.
A second axle with differential is going to add a lot of weight and cost
some of the efficiency you are working so hard to improve.
Maybe you can find a way to couple the electric motor to the existing
engine, flywheel, or driveshaft?
> 9. Electric only odometer.
Lots of vehicles have electric-only speedometers/odometers already.
> I'd like to have a seperate odometer that would count the miles
> only when in EV mode. Ideas?
This may happen automatically, depending on where your present
speedometer gets the pulses it is counting. Shut off the ICE, and the
odometer quits counting!
> I'm going to film/photograph/document the entire process
> and publish it all on a website and maybe even make a DVD so
> anyone else could copy what I do to convert their vehicle.
Great! Best wishes for your project! Hope this helps.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bonjour encore Philippe et tout le monde,
Merci beaucoup pour votre reponse et toute l'information que vous nous avez
donne, dont ceci dessous etait une partie:
SVE (dassault/heuliez) which made the "Cleanova" and "Cleanova II".
One is BEV, other is hybrid gridable, both are based on PSA little van
(Partner/berlingo) and supposed to use Saft Li-ion.
Heuliez was/his the maker of all the PSA EV so they are aware.
You're right about Dassault family company but they clearly want adding EV
business activity.
Yes they will sell to fleet use...at first ;^)
Last quote i had for SAft li-ion VL is about $4500 kwh at low numbers
(cheaper if mass producted) but not sold to individual just OEM so yes i'm
in France but still impossible for me to have only one VL cell :^(
Wow, $4,500/kWh! What an astounding, astronomical, mind-blowing price!
Well, I guess the sky's the limit, isn't it? And I had thought Kokam was
exhorbitant at $1,700/kWh! But Saft makes Kokam look downright reasonable!
No wonder the Dassault/Heuliez/SVE li-ion EV is destined only for
governmental fleet use! With a 200 km (125 mile) range, the car will
require approximately a 31.25 kWh battery bank. At $4,500/kWh, the battery
bank alone will cost over $140,000! Add another $20,000 for the rest of the
balance of materials and labor, and you've got a car that costs over
$160,000 to produce! Governments are certainly the only entities that can
and do pay those kind of prices because they are not constrained by economic
and market realities, and bureaucracies can often get away with not having
to justify such exorbitant prices (think of the Pentagon's archtypical
$6,000 toilet seats and you get the drift, pun intended!). Even
corporations can't justify paying prices like that, so I wouldn't expect to
see that car in use by corporate fleets, much less ever at consumer retail!
Philippe, I read an article about you on the EV UK News website that you and
your company produce a scooter (the Alel "Scooler") using Saft NiCads that
has a 100 km range and that you are adapting your scooter to run on
Thunder-Sky li-ions which will give it at least a 150 km range. I'm
wondering if you could give us an update on your development efforts with
the TS li-ions?
In particular, in light of this, I found it rather puzzling how you lamented
in your original post that no one has conducted and published any results on
experimental bench testing of TS li-ions:
We need standard repeatable torture test so:
for exemple: take 4 cells together to make something similar "12V" battery
and discharge 1C then charge C/3 and then record, count, mesure...
With 1H pause, its 4 to 5 cycle per day, 2 month would be sufficient to
have
usable data and tell if yes or not TS cells are good batteries to support
or
something still too expansive for kWh it gives.
We have this data for all EV batteries we use, i'm disappointed than after
1
year more world availability, still no such cycling data on TS cells is
coming :^(
I would have thought that you yourself would have done this as part of your
development efforts in converting your scooter from Saft NiCads to TS
li-ions, and not only that you would have bench tested them, but after bench
testing, you would have then gone on to do extensive road testing/trialing
on your scooter. So I'm just wondering what happened with your own
development cycle on the TS li-ions for your scooter?
By the way, have you had any contact with Jukka Jarvinen in Finland? I
believe he is doing something similar with his project to convert EVT 4000e
scooters from lead-acid to TS li-ions, and he has apparently achieved a
range of over 100 miles (160 kms). Maybe you guys should hook up and team
up together to take on the big boys like Peugeot and Oxygen.
There would seem to be a tremendous market for this in Europe, very much
ripe for the picking. As I'm sure you are well aware, London has a 5-pound
per day inner-city congestion charge for ICE vehicles for which only EVs are
exempt. Rome has a 30 km diameter downtown ICE exclusion zone where all ICE
vehicles are actually completely prohibited (with the exception of emergency
services -- fire, rescue, police); only EVs are allowed in the downtown
zone. Florence has a similar but smaller downtown ICE exclusion zone with a
10 km diameter. Milan and Naples are contemplating similar measures and
expected to enact them in the near future. The need for a longer range
(e.g. li-ion powered) electric scooter is the greatest in Rome due to the
large size of the ICE exclusion zone there. I understand that there are
thousands of electric scooter riders in Rome and many public charging
stations in the city. But these are all Oxygen type of scooters with a
limited range of around 45 km, yet that is the total range, of which only
half is actually usuable since in general you don't want to regularly
discharge a lead-acid battery much beyond a 50% DoD or else you greatly
shorten its life. So the result is that people who are commuting from some
distance outside the ICE exclusion zone end up having to recharge once or
twice or sometimes maybe even three times a day within the zone (in addition
to charging at home) to get all the way in through the zone and then back
out and back home after work. This doesn't present any logistical problem
as there are enough public charging stations, but it is obviously a hassle
and quite inconvenient because of all the extra time it adds to one's
commute. I have seen pictures of Romans standing smoking their cigarettes
at public charging stations waiting patiently for their Oxygen scooters to
recharge so they can continue on their way home. (Now if that isn't a
paradox -- oxygen and cigarettes -- I don't know what is!) So a li-ion
powered scooter with a 150 km range is going to be a real boon and
blockbuster hit in Rome, where you or whoever else makes it to market first
is going to sell thousands of scooters, just in Rome!
Then of course you have Paris, where I read that the City Council has banned
SUVs (basically all passenger vehicles over a certain weight limit) from the
downtown inner-city area. So might there be some possibility that Paris
will follow the lead of either London with an inner-city congestion charge
for all ICE vehicles or maybe even the more draconian model of Rome and
Florence in banning ICE vehicles entirely from the downtown area?
Enfin, j'ai lu dans cette article de EV UK que vous habitez en Haute Savoie
pres de Chamonix. Oh quelle chance de vivre la bas et quelle beaute! Je
suis plein d'envie! J'y vais il ya longtemps quand je suis monte le Mont
Blanc. Ah, merveilleux, c'est paradis!
Ciao,
Charles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I'd like to do a first conversion the simplest possible way and wonder what
that would be. I've read through "Convert It" and have been doing a lot of site
surfing.
A couple sites of interest are by Bohan Design
(http://members.aol.com/BohanDesign/qig/default.htm) and Wilderness EV
(http://www.e-volks.com/) who both offer a motor / adapter plate assembly that
bolts right onto the VW Bug/Beetle tranny/flywheel without any need to remove
the tranny. Both say you can remove the internal combustion engine and bolt on
their assemblies in less than an hour. That sounds great but has anyone had
experience with these? With Electro-Automotive's kits/parts, do you have to
remove the tranny?
I'd enjoy hearing feedback on these and other options. I've been watching
EVfinder, et.al. but haven't seen an EV for sale yet that looked interesting
enough to make an offer on so I may do a conversion.
Mark Freidberg
________________________________________________________________
NetZero Gift Certificates
Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season.
http://www.netzero.com/give
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Price i heard was for OEM prototype pack (read: hand made), it was 2 years
ago, actual "production" price would hopefully not be such platinium level.
If i recall correctly there was a BMS include, but Li-ion Saft is TOP SECRET
technologie, i have not a lot details about it :^)
There is misunderstanding in this article about me and ALEL company, i
already told about that to Moira of EVUK but no matter, to clarify:
I'm not involved or work at ALEL company, to resume:
i asked by phone about Scooler development state 3 years ago.
This company is near my home, i meet the Boss several times and we became
friends so i help him sometimes, period.
Last thing i organize was an electric scooter road trip world record without
charging.
We achieve 165km (102miles) at 32km/h mean speed, with 5 to 26km/h front
wind all the way.
few details here:
http://www.alel.biz/Alel/info_du_mois_eng.html
No need to have li-ion to obtain long range, just a well engineered electric
scooter :^)
I advise my friend to test TS cells on Scooler but actualy he prefer working
with Saft nicad, maybe one day NiMh or Li-ion, because of their known
quality and with actual information about TS cells results, i agree.
I developed and i'm developping, for my usage and EV promotion, few EV.
At the moment, an Aprilia 125 RS conversion and upgrading an Italvel
electric scooter with Saft aircraft nicad, high power controller and
permanent magnet motor.
I help other friend who is French EVT distributor finding better
batteries/charger than stock, for this purpose i asked Jukka to have a TS
pack/charger for an EVT4000 but unfortunaltly i'm still waiting an answer.
that's all folks :^)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2005 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: Follow-up on Valence Li-Ion batteries in 12V size
> Bonjour encore Philippe et tout le monde,
>
> Merci beaucoup pour votre reponse et toute l'information que vous nous
avez
> donne, dont ceci dessous etait une partie:
>
> > SVE (dassault/heuliez) which made the "Cleanova" and "Cleanova II".
> > One is BEV, other is hybrid gridable, both are based on PSA little van
> > (Partner/berlingo) and supposed to use Saft Li-ion.
> > Heuliez was/his the maker of all the PSA EV so they are aware.
> > You're right about Dassault family company but they clearly want adding
EV
> > business activity.
> > Yes they will sell to fleet use...at first ;^)
> >
> > Last quote i had for SAft li-ion VL is about $4500 kwh at low numbers
> > (cheaper if mass producted) but not sold to individual just OEM so yes
i'm
> > in France but still impossible for me to have only one VL cell :^(
>
> Wow, $4,500/kWh! What an astounding, astronomical, mind-blowing price!
> Well, I guess the sky's the limit, isn't it? And I had thought Kokam was
> exhorbitant at $1,700/kWh! But Saft makes Kokam look downright
reasonable!
> No wonder the Dassault/Heuliez/SVE li-ion EV is destined only for
> governmental fleet use! With a 200 km (125 mile) range, the car will
> require approximately a 31.25 kWh battery bank. At $4,500/kWh, the
battery
> bank alone will cost over $140,000! Add another $20,000 for the rest of
the
> balance of materials and labor, and you've got a car that costs over
> $160,000 to produce! Governments are certainly the only entities that can
> and do pay those kind of prices because they are not constrained by
economic
> and market realities, and bureaucracies can often get away with not having
> to justify such exorbitant prices (think of the Pentagon's archtypical
> $6,000 toilet seats and you get the drift, pun intended!). Even
> corporations can't justify paying prices like that, so I wouldn't expect
to
> see that car in use by corporate fleets, much less ever at consumer
retail!
>
> Philippe, I read an article about you on the EV UK News website that you
and
> your company produce a scooter (the Alel "Scooler") using Saft NiCads that
> has a 100 km range and that you are adapting your scooter to run on
> Thunder-Sky li-ions which will give it at least a 150 km range. I'm
> wondering if you could give us an update on your development efforts with
> the TS li-ions?
>
> In particular, in light of this, I found it rather puzzling how you
lamented
> in your original post that no one has conducted and published any results
on
> experimental bench testing of TS li-ions:
>
> > We need standard repeatable torture test so:
> >
> > for exemple: take 4 cells together to make something similar "12V"
battery
> > and discharge 1C then charge C/3 and then record, count, mesure...
> >
> > With 1H pause, its 4 to 5 cycle per day, 2 month would be sufficient to
> > have
> > usable data and tell if yes or not TS cells are good batteries to
support
> > or
> > something still too expansive for kWh it gives.
> >
> > We have this data for all EV batteries we use, i'm disappointed than
after
> > 1
> > year more world availability, still no such cycling data on TS cells is
> > coming :^(
>
> I would have thought that you yourself would have done this as part of
your
> development efforts in converting your scooter from Saft NiCads to TS
> li-ions, and not only that you would have bench tested them, but after
bench
> testing, you would have then gone on to do extensive road testing/trialing
> on your scooter. So I'm just wondering what happened with your own
> development cycle on the TS li-ions for your scooter?
>
> By the way, have you had any contact with Jukka Jarvinen in Finland? I
> believe he is doing something similar with his project to convert EVT
4000e
> scooters from lead-acid to TS li-ions, and he has apparently achieved a
> range of over 100 miles (160 kms). Maybe you guys should hook up and team
> up together to take on the big boys like Peugeot and Oxygen.
>
> There would seem to be a tremendous market for this in Europe, very much
> ripe for the picking. As I'm sure you are well aware, London has a
5-pound
> per day inner-city congestion charge for ICE vehicles for which only EVs
are
> exempt. Rome has a 30 km diameter downtown ICE exclusion zone where all
ICE
> vehicles are actually completely prohibited (with the exception of
emergency
> services -- fire, rescue, police); only EVs are allowed in the downtown
> zone. Florence has a similar but smaller downtown ICE exclusion zone with
a
> 10 km diameter. Milan and Naples are contemplating similar measures and
> expected to enact them in the near future. The need for a longer range
> (e.g. li-ion powered) electric scooter is the greatest in Rome due to the
> large size of the ICE exclusion zone there. I understand that there are
> thousands of electric scooter riders in Rome and many public charging
> stations in the city. But these are all Oxygen type of scooters with a
> limited range of around 45 km, yet that is the total range, of which only
> half is actually usuable since in general you don't want to regularly
> discharge a lead-acid battery much beyond a 50% DoD or else you greatly
> shorten its life. So the result is that people who are commuting from
some
> distance outside the ICE exclusion zone end up having to recharge once or
> twice or sometimes maybe even three times a day within the zone (in
addition
> to charging at home) to get all the way in through the zone and then back
> out and back home after work. This doesn't present any logistical problem
> as there are enough public charging stations, but it is obviously a hassle
> and quite inconvenient because of all the extra time it adds to one's
> commute. I have seen pictures of Romans standing smoking their cigarettes
> at public charging stations waiting patiently for their Oxygen scooters to
> recharge so they can continue on their way home. (Now if that isn't a
> paradox -- oxygen and cigarettes -- I don't know what is!) So a li-ion
> powered scooter with a 150 km range is going to be a real boon and
> blockbuster hit in Rome, where you or whoever else makes it to market
first
> is going to sell thousands of scooters, just in Rome!
>
> Then of course you have Paris, where I read that the City Council has
banned
> SUVs (basically all passenger vehicles over a certain weight limit) from
the
> downtown inner-city area. So might there be some possibility that Paris
> will follow the lead of either London with an inner-city congestion charge
> for all ICE vehicles or maybe even the more draconian model of Rome and
> Florence in banning ICE vehicles entirely from the downtown area?
>
> Enfin, j'ai lu dans cette article de EV UK que vous habitez en Haute
Savoie
> pres de Chamonix. Oh quelle chance de vivre la bas et quelle beaute! Je
> suis plein d'envie! J'y vais il ya longtemps quand je suis monte le Mont
> Blanc. Ah, merveilleux, c'est paradis!
>
> Ciao,
>
> Charles
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> We were discusing a motorcycle here and I take it you don't ride.
>
> Steering inputs, above walking pace, are tiny in terms of angular movement;
> It's more a matter of pressure.
>
> Lever steering has been tried on motorcycles, but it feels wrong. The two
> hand controls should move around a common pivot with an axis no more than
> about 45 degrees from vertical.
>
Sounds like a good argument for non-mechanical controls, but I don't know how
safe you'd feel depending solely on electrical steering inputs! Recumbent bikes
use underseat steering that is fairly similar to the lever idea, and while I
haven't tried one, they look to have good stability.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> ThunderSky have been mucking around with their model designations and specs.
> lately. Cedric is using TS-LP8581A cells at 3Kg each. His charger is a Zivan
> K2 (nom. 48v) from when he had Optimas in the bike. He's got the output of
> an opto-isolator connected accross the voltage contro pot to allow voltage
> limiting on a per-cell basis. Likewise the Brusa controller is prevented
> from under or over-charging any cell.
>
"Mucking around" seems the appropriate term - their numbers don't make a lot of
sense: in terms of energy density, their LCP95AHA cells look the best at 2.4kg
for 95Ah, but why would losing 20% of the weight only cost you a loss of 5% of
capacity, especially when the LCP90AHA has another 5Ah drop but only 100gm less
weight? Makes you dubious about performance until you can get some cells
independently tested.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> http://www.peraves.ch/ndexe.htm
>
> The Eco does a lot of what you're asking, though it's still run by MC
> engine and has largely standard MC controls like handlebars and such.
>
Every time I visit the Peraves site I realize how *inefficient* their numbers
look. For the "basic" $60K model:
-55mpg at 55mph isn't much better than a Harley
-A Kevlar and resin body for an empty weight of 1000#
-A top speed of 150mph with a 90hp engine means ~6hp to go 60mph, much more than
for Cedric's bike.
Note: the more powerful $80K turbo model is the only one for sale in the U.S.
Admittedly, Cedric's use of lighter materials and lack of fancy crash protection
systems proves he's not planning on cruising on the Autobahn, but the rough look
to his bike belies a much higher aerodynamic efficiency. The added weight of the
Ecomobile doesn't explain the high energy use - at around 4ft x 4ft, its fronal
area is high (even with rounding off for the curve), and the irregularities to
the body surface definitely don't help the Cd.
While I think my idea of an enclosed cycle might be pricey, I'm pretty sure it
would be less than the cheapest Ecomobile!
--- End Message ---
