EV Digest 3993
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: acceleration
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Simple First Conversion Query
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motors in series? Torque vs. power?
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Brush help
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Manufacturing an input shaft
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Brush help - using drilling guides
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Simple First Conversion Query
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Cedric's bike - inspiring!
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Hawkers and T105's working together
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Low cost performance, The Amazing Little Hawkers That Refuse to Die!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Air conditioning - dumb questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Zap
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Air conditioning - dumb questions
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Air conditioning - dumb questions
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Air conditioning - dumb questions
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
> If you can truly stay near the power peak (like with a variable
> transmission, sepex, or a good AC setup) you get more area under
> the curve, and it is amazing how much better acceleration can
> result.
Exactly my point!
> Without going into heavy mathematics, let's just scale
> from some well known examples:
>
> Sundancer type vehicle: assume 2400 lbs and 54 kw.
> EV1: ~3000 lbs, 0-60 mph in ~8 seconds, 103 kw.
>
> Scale to EV1:
> 8 seconds * (2400 lbs / 3000 lbs) * (103 kw / 54 kw) = 12.1 seconds
>
> Scale to Tzero:
> 4 seconds * (2500 lbs / 2400 lbs) * (150 kw / 40 kw) = 11.6 seconds
>
> I'd wager putting a good AC system and appropriate gearing into a
> Sundancer would put it close to 12 seconds 0 to 60, even limited to
> 54 kw.
This is an elegant way to come up with a quick estimate, David. Both the
EV1 and tZero have "constant horsepower" drive system. So, by extension,
if you arrange your EV's drive system to deliver roughly constant HP
over a fairly wide range of speed, you *could* get good accelleration
with cheap old flooded batteries.
> Now in John's defense, Lee did say 54 kw ~ 54 hp
That is of course just a crude approximation. The true number at 100%
efficiency is 1 hp = 0.746 kw. Assuming 1kw = 1hp is like saying your
drive train is about 75% efficient.
> If you grunge out the "area under the curve" math for acceleration,
> it is a powerful argument for sepex or AC.
Yes indeed! Or, for a PM motor and variable-speed transmission (or any
other scheme that lets you get reasonable HP and efficiency over a wide
range of speeds).
If I were to try a Sundancer-type EV today, I think I'd try a 90%
efficient Etek/Lynch/Lemco type motor, with a variable-displacement
hydraulic pump/motor setup (which Ernie Parker tells me can be 90%
efficient).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> To get even close to the right time prediction, you have to
>> calculate...
damon henry wrote:
> or ... you can just build the beast(ie) and report back to the
> list real data, which I believe is where Waylands's whole argument
> comes from. He is throwing out the theoretical numbers and screaming
> I've already built it (or something very similar), and here is what
> happens...
There is value to both the theoretical and the practical approach. The
theoretical approach lets you explore possibilities much faster and
cheaper. But, theory is never all that accurate. Theory just tells you
if it's *worth* trying to build it.
Actually building it is far more expensive and time consuming; but it
gives you solid, real-world data as to what really happens. But, it can
introduce so many compromises and problems that it obscures the idea. A
great idea that gets badly implemented is likely to be discarded as a
bad idea.
The Red Beastie was a "lead sled" with the usual series DC motor and PWM
controller. But, John didn't try some form of constant-horsepower drive
to see if this would be better.
In the case of McKee's Sundancer, he *did* try the usual golf cart
batteries and series DC motor setup, and it did indeed accellerate
slowly. But he went on to try many other drive setups. The ones that
came closest to a constant-horsepower setup worked much better.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jan 1, 2005, at 5:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi,
I'd like to do a first conversion the simplest possible way and wonder
what that would be. I've read through "Convert It" and have been doing
a lot of site surfing.
A couple sites of interest are by Bohan Design
(http://members.aol.com/BohanDesign/qig/default.htm) and Wilderness EV
(http://www.e-volks.com/) who both offer a motor / adapter plate
assembly that bolts right onto the VW Bug/Beetle tranny/flywheel
without any need to remove the tranny. Both say you can remove the
internal combustion engine and bolt on their assemblies in less than
an hour. That sounds great but has anyone had experience with these?
With Electro-Automotive's kits/parts, do you have to remove the
tranny?
I believe it depends largely on your donor car. In the case of my 914,
the motor and tranny drop together. In other cars, it may be possible
to replace the engine without moving the tranny -- the design of the
adapter plate certainly doesn't require it to be dropped. I find that
the Electro-Automotive parts simplify my conversion considerably. All
I have to do is bolt the motor to the tranny, then bolt the motor mount
on the other end & jack the whole assembly into the car.
I think "less than an hour" is overly optimistic. Once you had the ICE
out and the kit and all the hardware handy, bolting the adapter &
flywheel to the motor and attaching that to the tranny would be pretty
quick, but you'd really have to know what you're doing and have all the
right tools handy to do the whole thing that quickly. Still if the
donor car's in good shape and you have a kit, the process should be
pretty quick.
I'm not doing the full electro-auto kit, since I'm using Optimas
instead of floodies and a T-Rex 1000 instead of a Cursit, so I can't
tell you how the rest of it goes, but from what I've seen, their parts
do really seem to be bolt-on-and-go, provided the donor car's all in
good shape. I definitely recommend using some pre-made components to
make your life easy.
I would advise against the Bohan kit, which is rather outdated --
aircraft starter/generator motors and contactor controllers are a thing
of the past, and pale in comparison to a nice Advanced DC or WarP motor
with a PWM controller. The e-volks motor also sounds underpowered &
low-voltage for modern EV applications, though at least they use a PWM
controller (granted, Alltraxes are designed for golf carts, not street
EV's)
"The motor runs at 7500 RPM at 36VDC and draws 500+ amps at startup and
200-250 amps at 35 MPH"
200-250A continuous is a lot of stress on a typical flooded battery.
You could have parallel strings, but that adds other issues.
So definitely at least consider going with an electro-auto or similar
adapter and a 6.7" or 8" ADC or WarP motor.
hope this helps!
-Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This could get very interesting especially with two motors.....
Mike G.
Mark Thomasson wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lonnie Borntreger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
But why does the series/parallel switch in series wound DC motors work
so nicely? Reality, that's why.
I've noticed my 4 pole, series, ADC motor has the field poles in series and
the armature poles in parallel. We have already heard much about the racing
folks switching the field circuits from series to parallel to weaken the
field to get more top end torque. Now, can we pull the same series/
parallel trick on the armature of a single motor, similar to what is being
discussed for a two motor drive? For higher low end torque, change the
armature poles to a series arrangement, then back to parallel for the normal
top end torque? Thanks, Mark T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Mike. I've decided it's time to collect all the faceplate data
I can and call ADC. Oddly, when I first looked them up last year, I
couldn't find them. Now a Google returns them as the first hit. At
least, I assume that's them...
Reading your experiences on this list is the main reason I'm being such
an anal pest about this. The last thing I need is to replace a motor.
I'm hoping that my 9" differs from your 8", but it's definitely time to
go straight to the source.
Jude
Mike Chancey wrote:
Those exiting holes should only be CCW advanced and neutral. John
Wayland added the CW holes on my 8" and set it up for me before
shipping it. It replaced my XP-1263 which unfortunately was
completely destroyed by being set to neutral. Don't get this wrong or
you will end up with results like this:
http://www.geocities.com/evalbum/fireball/fireball.html
Basically, don't get this wrong! You MUST add the extra advance
holes. The bolts are special self-tapping units, so you don't have to
tap them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why dont you have the motor shaft machined to fit over the input shaft
of the transmission.
Mike G.
Dragan Stancevic wrote:
On Thursday 30 December 2004 22:31, Jeff Shanab wrote:
You may want to check with a transmission shop or go to the library and
look at the interchange guide.
First find out what the root transmission is like borg-warner T5, then
find out all the cars it is in nisan,chevy,ford and the years and spend
a day at the wrecking yard with the clutch disk you like and some
calipers, you may get lucky.
It's a Toyo Kogyo Mazda M5OD R2 5-speed overdrive, used in Mazda and Ford
trucks.
But I have a question on how 4 inch could be to long, Are you going
clutchless? or are you talking about the fact that the electic motor has
a 1.5 inch before the adapter requirement.
Going clutchless.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Philip. This is exactly the kind of information I was looking
for. This will be much more accurate than just eyeballing it.
I wish I had a drill press. I'm not the kind of guy that has exotic
tools. Then again, considering that I've still got a full tap-and-die
set, helicoils, an impact wrench, and a socket that fits VW transmission
bolts, maybe I *am* the kind of guy that has exotic tools. Just not
_expensive_ ones.
Those helicoils really came in handy on the pinball machine.
Judebert
Philip Marino wrote:
If you do need to drill new holes (and there seem to be differing
opinions about that) , try this:
Remove the screws that secure the brush end cap to the motor. Rotate
the brush endcap to the final position you want it in, and clamp it
securely to the motor ( a couple of bar clamps pulling both end caps
together should do it)
Make up a drill guide bushing using several short ( 1 inch or so)
pieces of telescoping brass tubing (cheap and available from any good
hobby shop). These are 1/64 inch wall, and available in all
telescoping sizes from 1/16 to at least 1/2 inch. You should buy the
sizes ranging from the smallest that will fit around your tap drill to
the larges that will fit in the existing clearance holes in the brush
end bell. If it's a tight fit in the clearance hole, that is even better.
After cutting a short piece from each tube, glue these pieces
together ( a bit of epoxy, or even wood glue will do it) so that you
now have one thicker-walled, short piece of tubing. Make sure you
deburr the ends, inside and out. Stick this in one of the clearance
holes in the brush end cap, and use it as a guide to drill the tap
hole in the motor casing. This will adequately locate the tapped
hole, so you know it will fit together. You still want to be careful
that the drill is parallel to the axis of the motor as you drill the
hole. If you can set the whole thing up in a drell press, that would
be great, but it will still work with a hand drill.
Now, tap the hole you just drilled ( or, if the screw is self tapping,
just screw it in). Install and tighten that screw, and drill the
remaining holes the same way.
When you're all done, it would be a good idea to dissassemble it and
blow out any chips.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Ben that does. How difficult was it jacking the electric motor/tranny
into the 914 and connecting it to the rest of the driveline? What were the most
difficult aspects of the entire conversion?
One question for anyone is what are the easiest donor cars to convert? Electro
automotive mentions the VW Rabbit and Porsche 914. But others say the old VW
Bug/Beetle because the engine can unbolt right off the tranny.
And on the VW, if the replacement electric motor just bolts to the tranny and
the other end just hangs without a motor mount support, wouldn't that be a
stressor to the motor particularly when going over bumps in the road?
Mark Freidberg
-- Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Jan 1, 2005, at 5:57 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to do a first conversion the simplest possible way and wonder
> what that would be. I've read through "Convert It" and have been doing
> a lot of site surfing.
>
> A couple sites of interest are by Bohan Design
> (http://members.aol.com/BohanDesign/qig/default.htm) and Wilderness EV
> (http://www.e-volks.com/) who both offer a motor / adapter plate
> assembly that bolts right onto the VW Bug/Beetle tranny/flywheel
> without any need to remove the tranny. Both say you can remove the
> internal combustion engine and bolt on their assemblies in less than
> an hour. That sounds great but has anyone had experience with these?
> With Electro-Automotive's kits/parts, do you have to remove the
> tranny?
I believe it depends largely on your donor car. In the case of my 914,
the motor and tranny drop together. In other cars, it may be possible
to replace the engine without moving the tranny -- the design of the
adapter plate certainly doesn't require it to be dropped. I find that
the Electro-Automotive parts simplify my conversion considerably. All
I have to do is bolt the motor to the tranny, then bolt the motor mount
on the other end & jack the whole assembly into the car.
I think "less than an hour" is overly optimistic. Once you had the ICE
out and the kit and all the hardware handy, bolting the adapter &
flywheel to the motor and attaching that to the tranny would be pretty
quick, but you'd really have to know what you're doing and have all the
right tools handy to do the whole thing that quickly. Still if the
donor car's in good shape and you have a kit, the process should be
pretty quick.
I'm not doing the full electro-auto kit, since I'm using Optimas
instead of floodies and a T-Rex 1000 instead of a Cursit, so I can't
tell you how the rest of it goes, but from what I've seen, their parts
do really seem to be bolt-on-and-go, provided the donor car's all in
good shape. I definitely recommend using some pre-made components to
make your life easy.
I would advise against the Bohan kit, which is rather outdated --
aircraft starter/generator motors and contactor controllers are a thing
of the past, and pale in comparison to a nice Advanced DC or WarP motor
with a PWM controller. The e-volks motor also sounds underpowered &
low-voltage for modern EV applications, though at least they use a PWM
controller (granted, Alltraxes are designed for golf carts, not street
EV's)
"The motor runs at 7500 RPM at 36VDC and draws 500+ amps at startup and
200-250 amps at 35 MPH"
200-250A continuous is a lot of stress on a typical flooded battery.
You could have parallel strings, but that adds other issues.
So definitely at least consider going with an electro-auto or similar
adapter and a 6.7" or 8" ADC or WarP motor.
hope this helps!
-Ben
________________________________________________________________
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Give the gift of Internet access this holiday season.
http://www.netzero.com/give
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce,
is there a link to California Commuter, do you have
any pictures and or build info???
--- Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does any one have a picture of Cedric's Bike or a
> Link.
> I seem to have missed it in the thread about
> Cedric's
> Bike.
> As far as Lever steering goes, California Commuter
> used lever steering due to wheel would be in drivers
> face and be hard to see through. I did a world
> record
> run in the 80's getting 156 MPG doing a 55 MPH run
> from LA to San Francisco. Steering wheel also would
> have interfered with cockpit access. And I can also
> mention that in the Trimagnum the biggest headache
> it
> trying to squeeze into the cockpit around the
> steering
> wheel even when it is tilted up. Sort of like
> climbing
> a horse while it is standing on a wall with the head
> towards the ceiling and the tail on the floor. Lever
> steering would be an asset to the design.
>
> --- Paul Compton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > > One thing to consider, before building a vehicle
> > with lever steering, is
> > > the relationship between linear movement of the
> > driver's hands and the
> > > angular movement of the wheel(s). Lever
> steering
> > works fine for low
> > > speed vehicles (like a Bobcat mini tractor) but
> I
> > think you'll find that
> > > in order to slow the steering rate down enough
> to
> > prevent you from
> > > zig-zagging down the road at highway speeds,
> > you'll need 6 foot long
> > > levers and really long arms. ;-) Think of it
> this
> > way: a typical car
> > > takes ~ 3 revolutions of the steering wheel to
> go
> > from lock to lock. If
> > > you multiply the circumference of the steering
> > wheel times 3 revolutions,
> > > that's the equivalent linear distance that your
> > steering lever ends would
> > > have to move to have the same steering rate....
> >
> > We were discussing a motorcycle here and I take it
> > you don't ride.
> >
> > Steering inputs, above walking pace, are tiny in
> > terms of angular movement;
> > It's more a matter of pressure.
> >
> > Lever steering has been tried on motorcycles, but
> it
> > feels wrong. The two
> > hand controls should move around a common pivot
> with
> > an axis no more than
> > about 45 degrees from vertical.
> >
> >
> > Paul Compton
> > www.sciroccoev.co.uk
> >
> >
>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, after balancing out a set of three Hawker batteries (26ah,
previously dried, and re-watered to about 85% capacity) I put them
together in parallel with my Elec-Trak's 6 T105 pack.
Before hooking them up I charged the T105's to full (all 3 sets of 2
T105's were reading 14.7) and charged the Hawkers individually, then
together for 24 hours in parallel. All batteries read between .1 volt of
each other (more like .05 or better)
The hawkers are fused 40 amps, and plugged in parallel with the main
pack via the accessory port. For safety's sake the Elec-Trak core has a
45amp breaker on this port as well.
Driving the tractor was very nice. The voltage sags were less and the
tractor felt a bit more "crisp". After running around for awhile I drove
back to the house and put it on charge.
All three of the Hawkers were reading different voltages under charge.
One would read 14.5 while the second was reading 13.9, and the third was
reading 14.2. When the charger hit "full", two of the Hawkers were at
14.5, with the third at 15.4. Bit odd, however at this point current
thru the Hawker string was .3 amps.
I'll run them thru a few more charge/discharge cycles however this did
look something like what I saw in the Prizm pack. Batteries that looked
to be in sync based on resting voltage being out of sync after a small
discharge and on recharge. I might also spring for a set of six Rudman
regulators, and try running two strings of Hawkers in parallel with the
T105's.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd wager putting a good AC system and appropriate gearing into a
Sundancer would put it close to 12 seconds 0 to 60, even limited to
54 kw.
Quick totally non-scientific data point: From a stop light the Prizm was
able to go from 0 to 60 in a little over 12 seconds. It's an AC system,
single gear, that sort of thing. Pickup was fastest 0-30, then slower to
60 as the motor switched from it's max-torque setting up to max speed.
I'll bring a stopwatch and try again this week.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
--- David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you can truly stay near the power peak (like with
> a variable
> transmission, sepex, or a good AC setup) you get
> more area under the
> curve, and it is amazing how much better
> acceleration can result.
>
> Without going into heavy mathematics, let's just
> scale from some well
> known examples:
>
> Sundancer type vehicle: assume 2400 lbs and 54 kw.
>
> EV1: ~3000 lbs, 0-60 mph in ~8 seconds, 103 kw.
Lets compare this to my example, a 1500lb EV with
720lb of t125's in it with a CD of .25 and frontal
area of 15sq'.
With 800 amps and 55vdc from a 72vdc pack gives
44kw, so with series torque off the line and field
weakening for the top speed, 0-60 in 10-11 sec seems
to be reasonable on flooded batts while still getting
over 100 mile range using a 72v, 650 amp controller
with a bypass contactor.
Or for another 266 lbs of batts, get 56kw.
Can you get it in most conversions? Not likely as
they are so compromised with weight. You need a
designed as EV to get good performance from floodeds
available now.
One nice thing about low voltage systems is if you
need an AGM booster pack, the costs, weight won't be
so bad as you only need 6 of them, giving more boost,
speed at a reasonable price while keeping, increasing
the 100+ mile range.
Another idea at about 100 mile range, faster
acceleration would be 96vdc of 27TMH 12v batts with an
Orbital string for high currents.
Or 120v version for conversions with less range.
This would give you over 80kw, 1,000amps at 80vdc
on the 96vdc pack. More with a Zilla.
Just have a current sensor or switch on the go
pedal, to switch the AGM's in when currents go above
150 amp's and a manual switch for when the T125 pack
is low.
They could be charged from the same charger with
regs on the AGM's and a hivolt cutoff each string.
My goal is reasonably priced EV's that perform
well. Just using AGM's won't give you much range as
their energy/lb is rather low with 3x the cost for the
same energy. Few get more than 30 miles.
But by keeping the batt voltages, batt and vehicle
weights, drag low, you can get good performance with
floodeds, lower fixed and running costs than ICEs.
jerry dycus
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<This helps a lot in hot weather. Air conditioning is a *big* power user.
Not surprisingly, auto air conditioners are not designed for efficiency.
Home air conditioners are. So, one interesting route is to use a small
home air conditioner, powered by an inverter.>>
Lee, we talked about this at some length this summer. My ICE AC was dead,
and I thought about trying to install a window unit in my car, perhaps sticking
out of the backseat and venting into the trunk. Of course, the details are
messier (how do you vent the trunk, yadda yadda), but screw details - I'm a big
picture kinda guy :-)
I didn't want to consider getting the auto AC fixed if it was something like
a compressor, because 1) it would be majorly expensive, 2) it would only break
again, as every auto AC I've ever had has broken, 3) I cannot maintain/repair
such a system on my own, and would be at the mercy of expensive, ripoff,
jerkoff mechanics, and 4) my car is a total piece of crap anyway.
My thinking was, the electric window unit would solve these issues. As to 1,
it might also be expensive for me to convert to window unit AC (inverters, HO
alternators, etc). But once I do, and the window unit dies, I can chunk it
and replace it with another wal-mart special for $100. Also, if I sell the car
or if it dies, I can keep the inverter and window unit AC, and stick them in
another car (cannibalization) or do something else with them. As to 2, see 1
(cheap replacement - provided HO alternator, inverter, etc. don't break). As
to 3, I can maintain/repair the system on my own - that maintainence/repair
consisting of chunking a broken window unit and buying a new one for $100 at
wal-mart.
Anyway, back to the point. My decision this summer ended up being to try the
"3rd way." I took it in for a recharge, and dye insertion in the system. My
thinking was, if by some miracle it was something cheap, like a leaky hose,
I'd fork out the bucks to fix it no prob. But if it was the compressor, etc.
then I'd go ahead with my window AC plan. Well, it cooled for a while, then
leaked out after a few months, and they told me they couldn't find where the
dye
leaked, therefore they couldn't find where the freon leak was, and therefore
they couldn't identify the problem, and therefore they wanted to repeat the
whole process. I told them "no," and have decided to go through with said AC
conversion - probably this spring before it gets real hot. Besides, it will
give me a lot of "practice" for when I eventually do an EV conversion.
Anyway, here are some questions for you, and a rough game plan for you to
look at if you don't mind:
1) I presume I will need a HO alternator. Hopefully I can get one to replace
the stock one exactly, with no other mods needed, or if not then perhaps I
can send the stock one off somewhere to get modified or rewound "HO" so that it
bolts right back in?
2) I presume I will need an inverter. The question is, can or should I hook
the inverter up to the accessory battery? Or will I need another battery or
batteries, connected to the HO alternator? My initial presumption was that
hooking it up to the accessory bat would be just fine, because no net power
would
be sucked out of it. The alternator would supply the battery, while the
battery supplied the inverter. But then it hit me that I really don't have a
good
enough understanding of this to make that kind of assumption. I'm now
thinking that, counterintuitive to my thinking at least, all the current coming
out
of the battery and going into the inverter would in actuality count as "amp
draw" from the battery itself, even though with my way of thinking it should
not
because the current is coming from the alternator (I have a strange way of
thinking). And if it indeed counts as "amp draw," I've learned from this list
that el-cheapo flooded starter batteries don't like a lot of amp draw... at
least not for an extended period of time (see, dumb newbies can learn something
from this list after all - miracle of miracles). But... thinking about it
more, this should only be a problem if it is a series connection between
alternator/battery/inverter, right? If we are talking about a parallel
connection here
(and more and more I'm thinking we are, with the alternator in parallel with
the battery, in parallel with the inverter)... then wouldn't this be okay -
connecting the inverter to the accessory battery, which is in essense wiring it
in parallel with the battery and the alternator? Question: wire to accessory
bat, or seperate battery or batteries? And if wire to accessory bat, is this
a parallel connection (seems it would be) or series?
3) Is that essentially it for the "big picture?" An HO alternator, possibly
a seperate battery pack (or possibly not), an inverter, and an AC? And what
do you think of my plan to mount this thing in the trunk, with the "cool air
side" sticking into the car through the back seat? I figure at minimum I'd
need
to drill a water drain hole in the bottom of the trunk. In reality, I'll
probably need to figure out how to do some venting back there, somehow. If I
can't stick it in the trunk, I have no idea where I will stick it. It's a 93
(or
thereabouts) Buick Regal.
Thanks.
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Speaking as someone who tried repeatedly to buy an EV
from Zap, I have the same impression of sleaziness
mentioned by others who received offers from Zap to
buy their EVs. The phone messages I left were never
returned. When I finally got a live person on the
phone, he was very uncooperative, didn't want to give
me any information, and basically said if I wanted to
know anything more I could come there and look at the
cars and maybe drive one. Maybe not.
My impression was that they're not really trying to
sell EVs. Whatever they're trying to do, it's not
really that, I think.
Sherry
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
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<<This helps a lot in hot weather. Air conditioning is a *big* power user.
Not surprisingly, auto air conditioners are not designed for efficiency.
Home air conditioners are. So, one interesting route is to use a small
home air conditioner, powered by an inverter.>>
A "lot" is relative: The AC system in the Prizm pulls about 3.5 amps at
300 volts, which is 1,000 ish watts, and less than the amount of power
pulled by the heater (2kw). On a drive of less than 30 minutes/30 miles
I don't even notice the extra draw. That's 5ah out of a 40ah (corrected
for 1c) pack. And it cools down the car in a minute or two; very very
strong system. In fact it's stronger than our other cars by a good margain.
I recently fixed the AC in my 944S by converting it to 134a. The
compressor had locked up and was totally wrecked, and the system had
vented the freon long ago. I took the system apart, replaced all the O
rings with ones from a kit ($14.00 for the set), replaced the compressor
with a fine used one ($75.00) and bought a new dryer ($20) 8oz of 134a
oil ($10ish) and 3-4 cans of 134a.
Some people just open the system, leave the air in there, and put the
134a and oil on top of it without even changing the dryer. Bad. 134a oil
plus water plus the old oil makes for sludge that doesn't travel, gums
up in the compressor, end of story in 6 months. Don't just buy a dopey
conversion kit.
By replacing the dryer and dumpstering the old compressor I had removed
most of the old oil (there's a tiny bit in the rest of the system, but
not much to worry about) and installed a dryer that could remove a fair
bit of moisture. I plumbed everything together, put the new oil in the
compressor, and closed it up. However there was all that air in the
system. It does not compress, does not help at all with cooling the car.
In fact it robs some of the cooling capacity and with 134a in a R12 car
you need all you can get.
Technically you should pull a vacuum with a $300 vacuum pump. However I
didn't have that. So I used a brake bleeder pump attached to a hose
attached over the top schrader valve. I would pull a vacuum in the hose,
then press down on the schrader valve to bring the system down.
Ultimately I was able to pull it down within 27 bar using this two stage
pump system. Which isn't perfect, but is over 95% of the air.
The AC has been working for a year now and is very cold. By comparison a
few years back I did the "charge with cheap kit" job on my 84 VW. Within
3 months the compressor locked up. Bad.
As for the AC in the trunk, I don't think it will work, unless you have
active venting going on in the trunk (aka: a big fan pulling air over
the coils). If the AC system can't dump the heat, it simply does not
work; that's why the AC coils are always located ahead of the radiator
and usually have their own fans to pull outside air in.
Chris
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Hello to All,
>From John Westlund:
>Congratz.
>Forklift?
>From Seth Murray:
>If John has an EV with flooded cells...must be a forklift.
>Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Oh gees you didn't buy a fork lift did you John?
Uh, umm, no...I didn't 'buy' a fork lift. I did, however, get one for free!
It's one of
five units just dropped out of service from a good sized fleet of mixed Yale,
Hyster,
Clark, and Crown forklifts I've been maintaining for one of our customers. A
few months
back they added six new Crown forklifts to their fleet, so 5 of their oldest
Hysters were
decommissioned. All were sold, except for my own Hyster J30BS, they gave it to
me for
free.
I had written:
>...it weighs about 7000 lbs. and runs off of nearly 2000 lbs. of flooded cells.
To be exact, my forklift has the biggest battery that will fit, the 2000 lb.
model, and so
it tips the scales (literally) at 7200 lbs.
>From Joe Smalley:
>How high does it go?
Not too high as far as forklifts can go. It's not a triple or quad mast, just a
two stage
so this one only does 130 inches or about 11 feet, but it can lift 3900 lbs.
that high!
That said, it's collapsed mast height barely clears my backyard EV shop's door
by 1/2
inch....and that's only if I tilt the mast forward all the way. Once it's in
the shop I
can return the mast to full vertical again and it clears everything fine.
>Got pictures?
Not yet. but they'll be coming. I'm taking before and after pictures, as I've
got
something 'special' planned for this thing.
>From Lawrence Rhodes:
>However it might come in handy if you don't crack the garage floor with it.
Good point, and something that's possible with so much weight concentrated in
such a small
wheel base. It does, however, have the cogged variable surface type solid tires
instead of
the non-treaded type, so there's a bit more cushion with these. I was allowed
to cherry
pick parts from the 5 trucks being sent away, and so mine has pretty nice
condition tires
on it.
>From Steven Ciciora:
>Are you going to put a zilla in it? What is it's top speed?
>From Seth Murray:
>I give him about 24 hours before it's got twin Z2ks running off a high voltage
>pack of orbitals and a 12" sub for every 10 pounds of battery :)
Well......you are actually pretty close to getting this right! No twin Zillas
or high
voltage, but subwoofers...OH YEAH! The plan is turning this little tough
forklift into
'The Hyster From Hell'. I've got a demented plan that will be turning this
machine into
the world's only sound-off fork lift. A full and detailed renovation is planned
to return
it to a factory fresh appearance, with lots of custom touches, of course. It
will retain
its full functionality as a useful workhorse forklift, and its everyday sound
system,
though planned to be pretty potent and definitely Waylandesque, will not get in
the way or
detract from the functionality of the machine. It's the detachable 'Crowd
Array' hydraulic
deploying enclosure that will be something else! With an 850 ahr 2000 lb.
battery for a
massive power reserve, audio output power will be measured not in watts, but in
KWs! Yeah,
I'm going a bit nuts on this system. I've got several sponsor avenues to
pursue, but the
plan right now is a wall of woofers sporting perhaps as many as 20 12" bass
drivers, or
perhaps 15 15's, or whatever I end up with. The top part will be the main sound
stage that
will be a two piece affair that splits and deploys left and right midwoofer,
midrange, and
tweeter enclosures via hydraulic rams. The idea is similar to the way
satellites open up
once in space as they unfurl their photovoltiac panels. For crowd pleasing music
reproduction, the 'Crowd Array' will be a fork-mounted device that can be
elevated,
tilted, side-shifted and with the hydraulic soundstage, angled and directed
just so.
The color theme will be yellow and black, true to the original Hyster look. I'm
hoping to
have amplifiers custom done in yellow against black crinkle finish.
This is all just in my head at the moment, but hey, that's how it goes with me.
I've been
fortunate to have strong backing from the car stereo companies for all my other
projects,
so I'm pretty sure this concept will become a reality. The everyday sound
system part will
be a piece of cake for me, but the Crowd Array will be quite a project.
As to the forklift's battery pack and drivetrain, it will all be stock stuff,
but of
course, all of it will be redone to my specs of detail and craftsmanship. The
GE EV100 SCR
controller drives twin 6.7 inch Prestolite series-wound traction motors, and
power comes
from a 24V, 850 ahr industrial battery. Enersys is already on board to fully
load test and
or rebuild the battery, and when returned to me, it will be as new both in
performance and
in cosmetic appearance. Though ugly right now, all cells are nicely equalized
and the
battery cranks out pretty close to its 850 ahrs @ the 6 hour rate. The
removable solid
plate steel controller - contactor panel cover will be cloned by Marko Mongillo
and I at
the metal fab shop, as the current one has been banged up pretty bad, and a
show only
clear Lexan cover will be made so the innards are viewable. Both drive motors
have been
rebuilt by my motor god friend Jim Husted, owner of Hi Torque Electric (name of
said
company inspired by me) out of Redmond, Oregon, so the drive motors are like
new. The
power steering pump motor as well as the hefty lift pump motor, are in great
condition,
too. I have a like new Exide industrial 24V charger that matches beautifully to
the
forklift.
I've had my eye on good 'ol #3 Hyster for a long time, as it's been known this
customer
was planning on getting rid of 5 of their trucks. The model J30BS is small and
compact,
yet powerful for its size, a perfect machine for me. Only the little J30BS came
with the
tidy and flat all metal dash fold, where the sanitary twin meter arrangement of
an hour
meter and an analog 'battery gauge' reside on either side of the tilt-away
steering
column. An Emeter will replace the analog gauge, and there's a nice clear area
to the left
dash side, where I can cut-in through the plate steel and make an in-dash
AM-FM-CD-DVD
player mount. I've always had a thing for hi tech machines mounted against
painted metal
dashes. Under the dash, the power unit's slanted vertical plate steel is wide
open for a
terrific mounting area for the amplifiers, too. Along with all the recent new
parts
installed, there's also a new seat that came with the deal.
>What on earth are you going to _do_ with it?!?
Other than the above crazy stuff, my electric forklift will be used for lots of
stuff
around here. It will be real handy as a mobile hoist to effortlessly lift the
twin drive
motors out of the Zombie's engine bay as I prepare to modify things for a new
motor
orientation. It will also be used to help with my other 2005 project machine,
my '66
Datsun minitruck, to lift off its 450 lb. bed....etc. etc. Besides, everybody
needs their own forklift :-)
My wife at first, went nuts when I brought this contraption home, but she's
mellowed out
now and accepts what I've done as just another Plasma Boy thing.
See Ya......John Wayland
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Hello to All,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Lee, we talked about this at some length this summer. My ICE AC was dead,
> and I thought about trying to install a window unit in my car, perhaps
> sticking
> out of the backseat and venting into the trunk. Of course, the details are
> messier (how do you vent the trunk, yadda yadda), but screw details - I'm a
> big
> picture kinda guy :-)
I know you've directed your questions to Lee, but I've already tried the idea,
and it
works quite well. I haven't put it in an EV yet, but as you read on, you'll get
the idea.
In my work life as a mobile forklift wrench, like my other work buddies, I
drive around in
a service truck with a box workshop. These diesel powered trucks are heavy duty
and are
well equipped, except for AC. For some reason our company never buys the trucks
equipped
with AC.:-( I've got a 2000 watt inverter system on board fed by 6 Trojan T-145
golf car
batteries, said pack normally charged off the truck's alternator during travel
time. When
lots of battery power is sucked up running the electric heater in the back,
high power
draw tools, etc., I then use the on-board 35 amp Todd DC-DC and plug my service
truck in
at night to keep the big battery pack fully charged....especially now with our
low 30
degree Winter weather.
This past Summer, I was getting tired of sweating to death in the 95-100 degree
weather as
I drove back and forth in the 320 mile round trip to Bend, Oregon. I got myself
an
inexpensive window air conditioner for $100 brand new, and did a simple,
primitive
install. My current service truck (I've got a brand new Isuzu service truck
being readied
for me...and no, it still doesn't have AC, though it does have power windows
and a CD
player) has a pass through opening between the cab and the rear box. I placed
the air
conditioner on the floor in the pass through opening, and it fit perfectly.
Above it, I
installed some thick cardboard to cover the rest of the doorway opening. This
allowed only
chilled air to come into the cab, with the hot exhaust air blowing into the
rear box
section...I didn't care how hot it got back there, I only wanted to be kept
cool on the
long drive in hot Summer weather. Running the AC with the inverter was a piece
of cake for
it, with power consumption out of the 12V inverter pack at 47 amps. This
current draw was
within the continuous safety range of the truck's 110 amp alternator, too.
It worked very well! I had fun calling all my coworkers, knowing they were
sweating in
their non-air conditioned trucks that day, to rub in the fact that I was too
cold and
might have to put a sweater on :-) The only downside of my impromptu AC setup,
was the
floor mount location and the way the c-cold air from the vent was freezing off
my right
arm and elbow!
The new cab-over Isuzu truck I'll be moving into, with no pass through and
complete
isolation from the box section, posses a problem for my electric air
conditioning set up.
I guess I'll have to get creative.
So.....it's entirely feasible to do such a thing in an EV. You'll need a stout
DC-DC and a
stiff AGM type backup 12V battery. 47 amps @ 12V is the same as 4.7 amps @
120V. Taking
into account efficiency losses through the conversion process, it should take
less than 5
amps from an EV's 144V battery pack when feeding the DC-DC converter to run a
120 vac AC
setup like I did.
See Ya.....John Wayland
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Hello to All,
In light of my response to this thread, the following states what I was
thinking about,
but forgot to mention.
>From Chris:
> As for the AC in the trunk, I don't think it will work, unless you have
> active venting going on in the trunk (aka: a big fan pulling air over
> the coils). If the AC system can't dump the heat, it simply does not
> work; that's why the AC coils are always located ahead of the radiator
> and usually have their own fans to pull outside air in.
I totally agree with this. My service truck's large box work area, allowed my
hokey AC
experiment to work well. An air conditioner needs to be able to 'breath' and
exhaust its
hot air away. Mounting t in the trunk, would absolutely require a venting
system to
exhaust the hot air.
See Ya....John Wayland
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