EV Digest 4015
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) charger isolation
by brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: OT Re: Gas vs. Electric
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Venturi Fetish
by UWStudent EVProject <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: LED Head Lights?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Thermal Runaway, Conditioning Charge (was: The Amazing Little
Hawkers.)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Horlacher sport I is better than the Sunrise.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: LED Head Lights?
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: servicing wet cells and remaking traction cell interconnects
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Gas vs. Electric
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Gas vs. Electric
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Gas vs. Electric
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) GM Sequel (joke)
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Charging Trade-offs
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: "A Surprisingly Accurate Digital LC Meter"
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Thermal Runaway, Conditioning Charge (was: The Amazing Little
Hawkers.)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: GM Sequel (joke)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: GM Sequel (joke)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Another EV Joins the Wayland Fleet
by George Tylinski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Extra parts
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: charger isolation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: LED Head Lights?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Extra parts
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: LED Head Lights?
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: LED Head Lights?
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: LED Head Lights?
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Horlacher sport I is better than the Sunrise.
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: LED Head Lights?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
this may be a dumb question, but is it necessary to
disconnect my main bank charger (NG3) while the car is
being driven? perhaps because of inductive feedback. I
would hope that my controller (zapi H2B)would take
care of that though... I just need a little
justification before I invest in a small contactor and
the time it would take to wire the sucker up.
Regards,
BCB
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I hardly use any gas in my insight but i am still
working on construction of a lighter weight ev as my
present one will not get me to work. there is no
justification for not trying to build a good fast long
distance ev regardeless of cost. In the not too
distant future we will all be driving electric or at
the least alt fuel vehicles the days of dead dinosaurs
are over. jerry has convinced me to try to build a
lightweight trike
>
>
> jerry dycus wrote:
>
> >
> >>How many times a week do you fill up your gas car?
>
> >>Let's
> >>say once a week. About $20 to fill it up. $80 a
> >>month is
> >>$1040 a year in fuel costs(52 weeks/year).
> >
> >
> > Most do more than that, 2 or 3 times in many
> > cases.
>
> I do less, but I often drive 200-300 miles when I
> make the big trips.
> (there is no train to take here). I'd say it costs
> most people more than
> $20 these days.
>
> >
> >
> >>The money it costs to build an EV is no different
> >>then if
> >>you bought a "new" used car for example. Or you
> >>sold your
> >>gas car to build the EV. So lets not consider the
> >>build
> >>costs.
> >
> >
> > If done right, this is true.
>
> You're leaving out the entertainment/enrichment
> value of
> building/converting your own vehicle!
>
> >
> >>I feel range is a non issue to an extent. For
> MOST
> >>people,
> >>running errands around town doesn't add up to 40+
> >>miles.
> >
> >
> > True.
> >
>
> I wish I could say 'true', I'd need 40 miles to go
> to the grocery store
> and back. 300 miles one way to get to my parents'
> house.
>
> >>Out of town, or out of state trips are the only
> >>place I can
> >>think of that range factors in. Gas cars can be
> >>rented for
> >>~$20 a day. I'd rather put the wear and tear and
> >
> >
> > You haven't rented for a while!!!!
> > I like using a 5kw per 1,000lbs gen for that.
> Great
> > gas mileage.
>
> Excellent idea, if only I had the resources to build
> an ev.
>
> >
> >
> >>miles on
> >>their car instead of mine anyways. Just how often
> >>does
> >>someone drive out of state anyways?
> >
> >
> > Depends.
> >
>
> I'm in college, I go out of state a few times a year
> at no less than a
> week in duration -> $$$ rental.
>
>
> --
> Martin K
> http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
>
>
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The Venturi Fetish is a neat car in that it is
actually a good looking EV (More-so than the TZERO of
which it shares some components). It is unfortunate
that it costs more than two Tzeros though! $600,000 is
like what McLaren F1s cost when they first came out!
At only 25 cars per year it could be a bit better than
the Tzero for visibility in the public. Props to a
company for actually making a production electric
sports car! The Fetish initially made its debut in
concept form with an internal combustion engine so it
is refreshing to see it come out as an electric
(Usually it the other way around) But look at what the
goofy reporter for Edmunds had to say about it!!
> "General Motor's EV1 was one of the first steps into
>the zero-emissions arena, but it failed miserably
>because of its impractical nature and limited range."
What the heck does he mean by "impractical nature"?
Maybe he's referencing how impractical the EV1s are
sitting in the desert crushed ;o)
>"While the Fetish is a sexy-looking car with a
>track-ready pedigree, its sky-high price tag and
>extremely short range make it nothing more than an
>interesting toy..."
Uh, short range? 200 miles... How far does this guy
commute?
>In the meantime, if you need a fun way to get around
>your private island and have easy access to
electrical >outlets, this is the car for you.� Dan
Kahn
Hmm, last time I checked most buildings around had
electricity? Maybe this guy commutes from way, WAY out
in the country and uses kerosene lamps and a
woodstove?
It's allways so dismaying to see what the media says
about EVs. We'll see what our campus newspaper has to
say about our own EV project to build an electric
sports car. They came and interviewed us yesterday but
didn't take many notes. Our soon-to-be EV has a
suspension designed by Lotus just like the Venturi
only it won't cost 600K.
Well the infernal combustion engine will be out of the
Fiero tomorrow and we plan to put in either one Warp
11" motor or two Warp 8's any recommendations? THe
main thing we are shooting for is a low zero to sixty
time but we are not simply making a dragster.
http://students.washington.edu/hrl
I've been monitoring the list for quite some time now,
what a great resource!
--Stephen J. UW Student EV Project
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Ken, I looked at the Luxeon web site, but could not find LEDs for head
lights. What product of theirs are you using for head lights?
Luxeon is more of an "Intel inside" type of tech. There are literally
hundreds of Luxeon based lighting products that have been introduced in
the last 8 months.
When I first discovered the tech about a year ago, I got some custom
hand built clusters made by specialty builders while I waited for more
commercial products to emerge.
For my small PEVs, the commercial product I have been running lately is
made by Cateye model number HL-EL500 Power Opticube. Uses 4 standard AA
batts and runs for 30-40 hours on normal alkalines before it gets
noticably dimmer. As I said, there are literally hundreds of products
out there now that embed this technology.
Sometimes, the Luxeon brand is not used by the other products when the
tech is imbedded. The way to tell is to look at the LED element itself.
If it looks like a standard LED with the plastic cylinder and convex cap
on it, it is not Luxeon. The Luxeon element looks like a tiny metal
cylinder with a concave (crater style) top. Sometimes the Luxeon tech is
referred to as 1W LED tech or some such.
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> As of this past August, the word from Dr. John Olson of Optima fame is
> that 4A is the maximum recombination current an Optima will support
> without thermal runaway, and that 2A for 1hr will result in a loss of
> less than 1g of H2O even if all of the energy goes into electrolysis.
(I missed this part earlier.)
Thermal runaway will NOT occur on a constant current charge. Can't
happen. Impossible. No way. No chance. No how. Not in a million years.
Thermal runaway ONLY can occur during a constant voltage charge.
It happens if the charger voltage is set too high for the temperature of
the battery.
Here is how thermal runaway happens:
The battery voltage is a function of temperature. The higher the
temperature, the lower the voltage. The end-of-charge voltage is VERY
sensitive to temperature. Selecting a charger voltage even SLIGHTLY too
high will result in catastrophic thermal runaway (unless your charger
adjusts it's voltage for a changing battery temperature, and/or times
itself out after a set number of amp-hrs, or shuts off when it senses a
reduction in voltage.)
A cut-off voltage of, say, 14.8 volts is just fine for 70 degree
batteries. If the battery temperature goes up to, say, 110 degrees, this
voltage setting will likely cause the battery to go into thermal runaway.
When the battery is full, the voltage will be below 14.8 volts. Since the
voltage is below the cut-off voltage, the charger will not shut off and
will continue to pump amps into the fully-charged battery. This overcharge
will dump more power into the battery and will cause the battery to heat
up. As the battery gets hotter, the voltage GOES DOWN. This makes the
constant voltage charger put out MORE AMPS, and more power, further heating
the battery. This makes the battery voltage go down even MORE and the
charger current to go UP even more. Thus, you have a thermal runaway
process. The charger current will increase to its maximum and will stay
there until the battery is ruined (or catches fire) and goes open circuit.
If you have a constant current, the changing battery voltage has
no effect. The current still stays constant. The power input actually go
down a bit as the battery heats up. No "runaway" process is possible with
constant current. If the constant current is high, you can still harm the
battery, but the heating process on the fully-charged battery is pretty
much constant. It is not a runaway process.
If the battery voltage ever goes down significantly during the
charging process, it is an indication that thermal runaway has begun. A
good quality charger will automatically shut off if the voltage trends
downward for any significant length of time, especially near the end of the
charging process, when thermal runaway is most likely to occur. Thermal
runaway is most likely to occur near the end of the charge because this is
when the charging process is least efficient (and tends to heat the
batteries) and the batteries are at their highest temperature.
>>>> History of the 4 amp Optima "conditioning" charge. <<<<
If you set the charger to 4 amps when you leave work in the
evening, you will have put 60 amp-hrs into the battery when you return the
next morning, 15 hours later. It's that simple. Of course, you should start
with a fully-discharged Optima.
If an Optima has been charged incorrectly, and the negative plate
is seriously discharged (and perhaps a bit sulfated) this treatment will
restore it to something close to full capacity. Conversely, if the Optima
is out of water, or the paste is shot, this treatment will not help much,
or will kill the battery completely.
This conditioning charge will cause the battery to lose some
water. It should not be done to a healthy battery.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Didn't know about this wonderful EV. Efficient wins again. They did this in
1992. Even more remarkable.
http://www.pasol.ch/english/index_e.htm
http://www.horlacher.com/ev_proto.htm#Prototypes
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did you have a look at the architectural ring lights they might be what
you are thinking of. They sent me some samples a few years back and they
really weren't bright enough for road use. They also had a fairly nice
tight beam out to a few hundred meters. They ended up being used as
a landing light on a homebuilt and work just fine for that ;-].
These were based on the 1w emitters I haven't looked but perhaps
they now have the same thing using the 3w or 5w emitters which would
work.
We designed a product for the military about 4 years back and had to
test/prove all of Luxeons claims other than longevity. Even using the
engineering samples we had they met or passed all of the publicised specs.
This was for a tactical runway lighting system which was battery powered
and using 2D sized nicads we got about 26 hours of useful service out of
a charge. Was nice considering we only had to do 8 hours to meet spec.
Dave
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Ken Trough
> Sent: January 8, 2005 9:26 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: LED Head Lights?
>
>
> > Ken, I looked at the Luxeon web site, but could not find LEDs for head
> > lights. What product of theirs are you using for head lights?
>
> Luxeon is more of an "Intel inside" type of tech. There are literally
> hundreds of Luxeon based lighting products that have been introduced in
> the last 8 months.
>
> When I first discovered the tech about a year ago, I got some custom
> hand built clusters made by specialty builders while I waited for more
> commercial products to emerge.
>
> For my small PEVs, the commercial product I have been running lately is
> made by Cateye model number HL-EL500 Power Opticube. Uses 4 standard AA
> batts and runs for 30-40 hours on normal alkalines before it gets
> noticably dimmer. As I said, there are literally hundreds of products
> out there now that embed this technology.
>
> Sometimes, the Luxeon brand is not used by the other products when the
> tech is imbedded. The way to tell is to look at the LED element itself.
> If it looks like a standard LED with the plastic cylinder and convex cap
> on it, it is not Luxeon. The Luxeon element looks like a tiny metal
> cylinder with a concave (crater style) top. Sometimes the Luxeon tech is
> referred to as 1W LED tech or some such.
>
> Hope this helps!
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX - 801-749-7807
> message - 866-872-8901
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
If you become very accomplished in this art form, it something you can add
to your Resume.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: servicing wet cells and remaking traction cell interconnects
> At 06:07 PM 8/01/05 -0700, Roland wrote:
> >To drill out lead links on battery cells
> >(snip)
>
> Wow, thanks Roland. Traction cell interconnects 101!
>
> Thank you.
>
> James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>How many times a week do you fill up your gas car? Let's
>say once a week. About $20 to fill it up. $80 a month is
>$1040 a year in fuel costs(52 weeks/year).
Okay....
>I feel range is a non issue to an extent. For MOST people,
>running errands around town doesn't add up to 40+ miles.
If people are spending $20 a week on gas (at $2 per gallon) and driving
under 40 miles a week, they're getting up to 4 mpg.
David Thompson
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--- Begin Message ---
--- James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >How many times a week do you fill up your gas car? Let's
> >say once a week. About $20 to fill it up. $80 a month is
> >$1040 a year in fuel costs(52 weeks/year).
>
I'm spending around $50 a week and I can't wait to get my EV going! I have a
motor, I have a
controller, and I almost have the donor. When will soon be now?
Here in the Northeast the price of gas will probably never get much below US
$2/gal., so the
sooner I can get off the sauce, the better.
I noticed on a recent automotive weekly TV program they showed a lot of the
major auto makers
pushing fuel cell vehicles and hybrids as the way of the future. At least there
won't be a lot of
competition for my EV company. If I can get to selling just one EV conversion a
week, I 'd be
happy as a pig in @#$%^&*! (Actually, I need to get my first one finished.) Oh
well, we all have
to dream. I'm still waiting for somebody to start selling "reasonably" priced
NiCads. How about
those Zebra batteries? 2 per car, are they available or just a part of history?
Dave Cover
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--- Begin Message ---
You have that right, many people will say they get 30 mpg, which was the
last time they went on a long distance drive.
But, take that same car and drive it a half mile and stop for a hour and do
that again for about 4 times a day which makes only 5 mpg.
The AVERAGE is the difference between the high, which could be over 100 mpg
going down a long hill to -0 mpg while you are stop.
I think the last time I fuel up my ICE was back in July with 10 gallons and
only used about two gallons of it so far. Buy it low as you would do in the
stock market.
As a EV owner, you can hybrid between these two cars, one for the short and
medium distances and one for the very long distance.
Also you can buy a ICE for a investment. How would you like to have bought
a car back in the sixties, have less than 100 miles on its, run the engine
on a test stand for 15 min every month and sell it for 10 times the price
you paid for it. This is what I do.
My latest ICE is now a 1975 Chevelle which is a sister car of the 1977 El
Camino EV. So far the Chevelle had two engine changes, two transmission, 4
starters replacements, 3 water pumps, 3 fuel pumps, one alternator, 3
complete exhaust systems, two carburetor replacements and one ignition
replacement.
The EV had only two motor bearing replacements at a cost of $33.00. Of
course I did updates, a new Zilla motor controller and a PFC-50B charger.
I am now having the ICE a complete OVERHAUL, as you see on the program
OVERHAULING. Kept only the sheet metal and frame. I will put only 50 miles
a year on this car driving it on very clean streets at a temperature of 70
degrees, not raining and etc.
I found it cheaper to rent a car to go long distances instead of wrecking
your classic.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "James D Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2005 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: Gas vs. Electric
> >How many times a week do you fill up your gas car? Let's
> >say once a week. About $20 to fill it up. $80 a month is
> >$1040 a year in fuel costs(52 weeks/year).
>
> Okay....
>
> >I feel range is a non issue to an extent. For MOST people,
> >running errands around town doesn't add up to 40+ miles.
>
> If people are spending $20 a week on gas (at $2 per gallon) and driving
> under 40 miles a week, they're getting up to 4 mpg.
>
> David Thompson
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/09/business/yourmoney/09auto.html
When GM steps in it, they don�t mess around. At least the electric breaks and
power
steering will be usable in the future. in fact all they need to do is rip out
all that
fuel cell related junk that will never work anyway and slap in a modern battery
pack that
can be swapped out for a fresh one in 2 minutes.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
... snip....
Choosing "B" will result in a greatly increased life span (close
to or greater than the spec sheet) if you time the finish charge to
deliver the required 4% overcharge. If you set the finish charge
duration to some constant time, (instead of adjusting it to 4%) the life
span will be something less than the spec sheet. The battery will run
out of water at about the same time as the paste starts to degrade. The
capacity will remain high until the water runs out.
Thanks for that very interesting info, Bill. One question: How do you
know when you have 4% overcharge? Is this determined accurately enough
by the emeter?
Mike Hoskinson
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--- Begin Message ---
Martin K wrote:
> I plan to build one of these LC meters:
> <http://ironbark.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au/~rice/lc/>
> Measuring range is from 0 to >0.1uF for capacitance and
> 0 to >10mH for inductance. Expected accuracy is +/- 1% of
> reading +/- 0.1pF or +/- 10nH"
Impressive! They managed to take a complex circuit is make it simple by
using the microcomputer and packaged LCD display.
Of course, you can buy multimeters with inductance and capacitance
measurements, but that's no fun :-)
I doubt you'll really achieve 1% accuracy with an LM311 as the
oscillator. This part is just not that good. A single JFET transistor
would have been a better choice.
The classic way to implement this circuit is the "grid dip meter"
(invented in the days of the vacuum tube). Nowdays, it is usually called
a "dipper" and the tube is replaced with a MOSFET transistor. You can
buy them already built, and there have been dozens of published
circuits.
The "dipper" consists of an oscillator, a variable capacitor, and a set
of plug-in coils. A meter measures the the RF voltage voltage. The dial
of the variable capacitor is calibrated in frequency (or a frequency
counter chip displays the frequency). The dipper can be used many ways:
1. Signal generator: Plug in the appropriate coil. Set the
frequency with the capacitor dial.
2. Signal receiver. The oscillator is switched to become an amplifier.
Now it is a radio receiver; you can measure signal strength at
any desired frequency, or listen to the signal with headphones.
3. Measures resonant frequency of a circuit. Hold the dipper's coil
near the test circuit. Sweep the dipper across the frequency range.
When the test circuit's resonant frequency comes near the dipper's
frequency, the meter "dips" from the power being coupled out.
4. Measures unknown capacitance. Connect the unknown capacitor across
one of the dipper's plug-in capacitors, and measure its resonant
frequency with the dipper. The dipper's inductors are marked, so
you can find the unknown capacitance.
5. Measures unknown inductance. Connect the unknown inductor across
a fixed capacitor; measure resonant frequency and compute as for
capacitance.
The dipper has the advantage over the circuit you posted in that it
ignores resistance of the inductor or capacitor being tested (it just
causes a shallower, broader dip). Also, you can test inductance and
capacitance at the frequency of interest, over a very broad range (my
dipper, for example, works from 100 KHz to 250 MHz).
What would be nice is if someone put the two ideas together. A "dipper"
with a micro to do the capacitance/inductance/resonance calculations for
you!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Thermal runaway will NOT occur on a constant current charge. Can't
> happen. Impossible. No way. No chance. No how. Not in a million
> years. Thermal runaway ONLY can occur during a constant voltage
> charge. It happens if the charger voltage is set too high for the
> temperature of the battery.
Gee, Bill, could you be a little more definite? :-)
I agree that true thermal runaway won't happen at constant current. But,
I do get what I've called "thermal walkaway".
Suppose you apply (say) 2 amps continuous current to an Optima, and go
off and leave it indefinitely. The battery reaches full charge, and then
sits at ~15v. 15v x 2a = 30w. No more charging is going on, so the
battery is just heating and gassing (and part of the gassing recombines,
producing more heat). So the battery has become a 30w resistor. 30w is
enough to s-l-o-w-l-y heat up the battery. It can keep warming up for
days, and can eventually get 30-40 deg.F above ambient. I call this
thermal walkaway.
Now, if the current is limited, the power is limited, so it will
eventually stabilize at a temperature set by how much airflow and
insulation it has around it.
But if the charger applies a constant VOLTAGE, then as the battery heats
up, the current will rise. This INCREASES the power, which increases the
temperature rise. This is true thermal runaway. The temperature never
will stabilize; it will keep rising until the battery is destroyed.
> If the battery voltage ever goes down significantly during the
> charging process, it is an indication that thermal runaway has begun.
What is "significantly"? During the 2 amp thermal walkaway I described,
the voltage will fall from a peak of 15.4v to 14.8v as the temperature
rises from 70 deg.F to 120 deg.F.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is the part I find amusing:
"Because the fuel cells used in cars would operate at about 180 degrees
Fahrenheit, they require more cooling and thus about twice the radiator
space of a conventional car, so honeycombed radiator surfaces are nestled
around the front taillights, in the back and on the sides."
So it needs twice the radiator capacity of a conventional car, which already
wastes, what, about 85% of its fuel's energy? I'm not quite seeing how this
is supposed to help matters.
OTOH, if they really managed to stuff a fuel cell into a box the size of a VCR,
they *have* been busy. I just wish they'd put some of that "busy" to work
building BEVs instead.
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--- Begin Message ---
The lower operating temp means that the radiatior temp is not as high
above ambient, reducing efficiency. The big question: can they run it
anywhere but San Fran yet? They usually have pure H2O coolant and can't
stand heat or cold.
Seth
On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:12 PM, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
This is the part I find amusing:
"Because the fuel cells used in cars would operate at about 180 degrees
Fahrenheit, they require more cooling and thus about twice the radiator
space of a conventional car, so honeycombed radiator surfaces are
nestled
around the front taillights, in the back and on the sides."
So it needs twice the radiator capacity of a conventional car, which
already
wastes, what, about 85% of its fuel's energy? I'm not quite seeing
how this
is supposed to help matters.
OTOH, if they really managed to stuff a fuel cell into a box the size
of a VCR,
they *have* been busy. I just wish they'd put some of that "busy" to
work
building BEVs instead.
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Well I'm here to report that the HysterMeister has scored a
really nice little fork lift. I was at the Wayland's to pick up
some stereo gear, and had the honor of being the first visitor
to view and drive the new toy.
At 7000 lbs, it's not small, but it's only about 1/2 the size of
a compact car. It's very clean and straight for a retired old
unit. There is surprisingly little corrosion. Although the
cosmetics are not good, the damage is superficial. That's
because the bodywork is made of 1/4"-3/8" thick steel... John
has cleaned up some of the wiring already. At this point, the
whole thing is completely functional and in good working order.
The battery will be restored by a local shop soon, all 2000 lb
of it. First there's the little matter of hoisting it out of the
box, which will require something more robust than an engine
hoist. It can apparently be driven on a pair of normal car
batteries in a pinch.
Sitting in the brand new seat, I turned the key and John
explained what the levers and pedals do. Lots of audible
feedback. The accelerator pedal has a forward and reverse side
with big red arrows. There is a mechanical brake as well as plug
braking. The power steering pump comes on as you turn the wheel.
I load tested the forks by lifting John up to the cieling.
This is a 3 wheeler, with a single rear wheel that steers (like
Buckminster Fuller's Dymaxion car). There was only enough room
to "drive" a foot or so back and forth. But, even with that I
could tell that with a little practice, you could routinely
position this 3-1/2 ton beast within 1/2" or better of where you
want it. I gather the top speed is a sane 5 mph or so. More
audible feedback from the SCR controllers.
It would be an easy restoration except for the weight. Getting
it to and from various shops will require heavy-duty assistance.
Eventually it will all happen, though his wife may never fully
forgive him for this one.
=====
George Tylinski (Yahoo ID acid_lead)
73 MG Midget / Portland, OR
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have begun my work on fitting the warp 9 into the 300zx.
On the transmission mount there is a bar with 2 5lb weights on the rear
mount.
I have seen this type of thing before, but never gave it much thought.
What are they for? do I still need them?
My first guess is they dampen vertical oscillations at the rear of the
tranny but are these from the engine which i am changeing the road, or
torque.
My second guess is they were added to transfer more load to the rear
tranny mount and away from motor mounts.
Thsi car has a vacumm pump!, obviously it is for the pop-up lights and
wouldn't power the brake booster but it is small and for cars with
manual brakes or eletrohydraulic, it is another source for a vacum pump
for accesories that is Automotive grade.
this is try2, i was informed that the email had bounced, ignore if
duplicate.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 1/6/2005
--- End Message ---
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brian baumel wrote:
> this may be a dumb question, but is it necessary to
> disconnect my main bank charger (NG3) while the car is
> being driven?
No, you can leave it connected. Unless your EV has regen, it will never
be able to apply a higher voltage to the charger than the charger itself
could have produced.
However, you may want to check to see if the NG3 draws any leakage
current from the battery when it is off. Some electronic switchmode
chargers get their operating power from the batteries. Leaving them
connected for long periods of time might run down the pack (for example,
leaving it parked without charging for weeks or months).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Ken Trough wrote:
> Have you ever used or seen the Luxeon based products? I completely
> agree with your assessment of LED marketing, but that is true for
> almost all marketing of all products... You made no substantive
> assertions that Luxeon tech is crap other than to lump the marketing
> in with the other LED techs.
Yes, I have seen them, and they are indeed bright. However, my point was
that "brightness" is not what you want for headlights. To be useful for
headlights, flashlights, or any general illumination use, we have to
know their total light output, in lumens or some other standard
measurement. I could not find any measures of illumination on luxeon's
website. Nor do any of the companies that license their technology give
any real numbers.
I am a skeptic by nature. Talk and testimonials mean nothing. I want to
see real, substantive, repeatable, independent test data. Do you have
any such data?
> Again, I suggest you look at 100 flashlights and see how many list
> "real" brightness numbers. VERY few do this.
Correct! But brightness is the wrong way to measure them. You might as
well specify flashlight in feet or gallons!
Light bulbs, fluorescent lights, and HID headlights are also heavily
marketed, and come with all sorts of outrageous marketing claims and
exaggerations. But, they also provide the actual light output, in lumens
or candlepower. Where are these numbers for LEDs?
The lowly #PR2 lamp used in millions of 2-cell flashlights is rated 10
lumens = 0.8 candlepower. Find that number for any LED flashlight, and
you will have a way to compare their light outputs.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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>I have begun my work on fitting the warp 9 into the 300zx.
I'd like to see some pics of that WarP 9 if it's not a
problem. Do you have any documentation or info on the
motor? I've searched and I can't find anything about it.
All I've found is a mention:
http://www.matchesmotors.com/_wsn/page2.html
And the supposed manufactor of it:
http://www.warfieldelectric.com/
Their page is just as uniformative as
http://www.adcmotors.com/ is. Why is that?
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> Yes, I have seen them, and they are indeed bright. However,
> my point was
> that "brightness" is not what you want for headlights. To be
> useful for
> headlights, flashlights, or any general illumination use, we have to
> know their total light output, in lumens or some other standard
> measurement. I could not find any measures of illumination on luxeon's
> website. Nor do any of the companies that license their
> technology give
> any real numbers.
>
Lee,
I found the following numbers at http://elektrolumens.com/Luxeon.html:
High light output. Luxeon's proprietary technology delivers 10 to 20 times
more light than conventional LEDs delivering the highest flux per LED in the
world. Luxeon Power Light Sources emit up to 325 lumens of white light, as
much as 790 lumens of red light, and comparable brightness in other colors,
depending on configuration. This unprecedented lighting power of Luxeon,
which will continue to rise through ongoing R&D investments, makes LEDs a
practical illumination source for lighting fixtures for the first time in
history.
Markus
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FWIW, last time I was on the Infineon website, their 1Watt white LEDs
did 20 lumens per watt, IIRC. A tungsten halogen does about the same or
a bit better. Fluorescents do ~5x the light per Watt. So they may be
low power, but not necessarily high efficiency. I do not know how a
true Xenon fares for efficiency, although I believe that they emit
proportionally more visible light than invisible radiation like
infrared.
I believe the VW D1 "one liter" (per 100km travelled) car had LED city
lights and Xenon for actual headlights. It probably would have had
Xenon lamps for city lights if they could be gotten in low enough
power.
Seth
On Jan 9, 2005, at 7:23 PM, Lee Hart wrote:
Ken Trough wrote:
Have you ever used or seen the Luxeon based products? I completely
agree with your assessment of LED marketing, but that is true for
almost all marketing of all products... You made no substantive
assertions that Luxeon tech is crap other than to lump the marketing
in with the other LED techs.
Yes, I have seen them, and they are indeed bright. However, my point
was
that "brightness" is not what you want for headlights. To be useful for
headlights, flashlights, or any general illumination use, we have to
know their total light output, in lumens or some other standard
measurement. I could not find any measures of illumination on luxeon's
website. Nor do any of the companies that license their technology give
any real numbers.
I am a skeptic by nature. Talk and testimonials mean nothing. I want to
see real, substantive, repeatable, independent test data. Do you have
any such data?
Again, I suggest you look at 100 flashlights and see how many list
"real" brightness numbers. VERY few do this.
Correct! But brightness is the wrong way to measure them. You might as
well specify flashlight in feet or gallons!
Light bulbs, fluorescent lights, and HID headlights are also heavily
marketed, and come with all sorts of outrageous marketing claims and
exaggerations. But, they also provide the actual light output, in
lumens
or candlepower. Where are these numbers for LEDs?
The lowly #PR2 lamp used in millions of 2-cell flashlights is rated 10
lumens = 0.8 candlepower. Find that number for any LED flashlight, and
you will have a way to compare their light outputs.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A funny website. Tungsten Halogen is just a tweak on a standard
incandescent bulb to push the color temperature and efficiency a bit.
So that website says (although in a misleading way) they are about the
same efficiency as a regular lamp.
Seth
On Jan 9, 2005, at 5:48 PM, Markus L wrote:
Yes, I have seen them, and they are indeed bright. However,
my point was
that "brightness" is not what you want for headlights. To be
useful for
headlights, flashlights, or any general illumination use, we have to
know their total light output, in lumens or some other standard
measurement. I could not find any measures of illumination on luxeon's
website. Nor do any of the companies that license their
technology give
any real numbers.
Lee,
I found the following numbers at http://elektrolumens.com/Luxeon.html:
High light output. Luxeon's proprietary technology delivers 10 to 20
times
more light than conventional LEDs delivering the highest flux per LED
in the
world. Luxeon Power Light Sources emit up to 325 lumens of white
light, as
much as 790 lumens of red light, and comparable brightness in other
colors,
depending on configuration. This unprecedented lighting power of
Luxeon,
which will continue to rise through ongoing R&D investments, makes
LEDs a
practical illumination source for lighting fixtures for the first time
in
history.
Markus
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The efficiency looks to be similar to me. About 140 Wh/mile. Just like
the EV-1, and some Forces. At low speeds it gets better, ~100 Wh/mile,
but it doesn't say what speed. Wonder how it corners with bicycle
tires?
Seth
On Jan 9, 2005, at 2:53 AM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Didn't know about this wonderful EV. Efficient wins again. They did
this in 1992. Even more remarkable.
http://www.pasol.ch/english/index_e.htm
http://www.horlacher.com/ev_proto.htm#Prototypes
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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--- Begin Message ---
they also provide the actual light output, in lumens or candlepower.
Where are these numbers for LEDs?
You took me to task for using the term "brightness" instead of
"candlepower". I'm not sure why because afaik "candlepower" is a measure
of "brightness" or how much light a source will throw. This has nothing
to do with spectrum.
I mentioned in my very first post that the commercial Luxeon product
that I use is rated at 1000 candlepower. Here are the main LED lighting
products from Cateye with the candlepower ratings listed:
Cateye HL-EL120 - 1 LED - 50 candlepower
Cateve HL-EL200 - 3 LEDs - 110 candlepower
Cateye HL-EL300 - 5 LEDs - 400 candlepower
Cateye HL-EL500 - 1 Luxeon - 1000 candlepower
If these numbers are correct, then in the Cateye products, a single
Luxeon LED is 20 times "brighter" or more luminous than a single
"superbright" LED. This is why this technology excites me.
I think you put too much into numbers, sometimes. You say that personal
reports mean nothing to you. I say that if people are successfully using
a technology for a specific purpose (Luxeon tech for headlights), then
the tech is certainly worth looking into, whether or not there is
copious amounts of tech data available.
Let me see what I can dig up in terms of more hard tech data.
-Ken Trough
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