EV Digest 4014
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger/Braided
interconnects?
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Charge Profile for Gel Batts
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Power supply question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: LED Head Lights?
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Hydro caps, Re: "very important that you allow the battery to gas"?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: LED Head Lights?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Batts in Ghia's, was : Thoughts on use of TS cells
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) servicing wet cells and remaking traction cell interconnects
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: LED Head Lights?
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) "A Surprisingly Accurate Digital LC Meter"
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: servicing wet cells and remaking traction cell interconnects
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Charging Trade-offs (was: The Amazing Little Hawkers.)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: servicing wet cells and remaking traction cell interconnects
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Batts in Ghia's, was : Thoughts on use of TS cells
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Gas vs. Electric
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) German study of low rolling resistance tires
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: servicing wet cells and remaking traction cell
interconnects
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) OT Re: Gas vs. Electric
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: OT Re: Gas vs. Electric
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I made them with a personal check. I think they were made offshore. But
there are places that will make them, and even braided shield and a
solder pot might do.
They cost me $1.80 each. My time is worth lots more than that, so to
me it was a deal.
Seth
On Jan 8, 2005, at 4:28 PM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Braided interconnects? How did you make them? Coat them? Thanks.
Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
I am pretty sure that the SAFT monoblock manual is available online.
If not let me know and I will distribute a PDF. I owe it to Bob Rice
anyways, who bought my 130 BB600 cells and *braided interconnects*
Seth
On Jan 8, 2005, at 4:26 AM, Joe Smalley wrote:
I am charging my SAFT NiCads at C/10 until the threshold voltage is
reached
and then some more AHr to stir the electrolyte.
I just finished the Commissioning charge this week and I need to
read the
manual to get the correct timing and overcharge requirements for a
routine
cycle. If the C/5 power level is REQUIRED, then I will need to get a
bigger
charger. My PFC-20 will not put out the 37 amps that the STM-185s
need.
Yes, I have a Windows box monitoring and controlling the process.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Multiple Powertool chargers as Ni Cad Pack charger
I think a variac charger can Quickly murder your NiCd batteries.
Joe Smalley
I know for the STM MR-MRE batteries SAFT recommends C/5 to
1.63V/cell then
C/20
with no voltage limit (usually to 1.8V/cell). What if you just set
the
voltage
to give you C/20 and adjust as needed to maintain that rate? Using
C/5
would
take intense babysitting, then drop to C/20 and more watching. Not
for the
unobservant or forgetful! An e-meter/Link-10 would be a neccessity.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the Force list one yahoo groups might have the profile from a
Brusa NLG 412 charger ( I think it was the 412). And that would be the
absolute best place to start, in my opinion. If you can get that, then
use it as gospel. You may have to scale by Ah capacity. If it worked
for 500ish cars with a battery warranty (and they are still in
business!), then it should work for you. If not, post again, and I am
sure there are ways to derive that profile
Seth
On Jan 8, 2005, at 9:42 AM, Don Cameron wrote:
Thanks for all the feedback on batteries, I have ordered the Deka Gel
batteries from East Penn (8G34M 60Ah) - I hope they work out.
The technical literature for these Gel Batteries is not very good as
far as
a charge profile.
It says the charge voltage is 13.70-14.10 V at 20 deg C (68 deg F).
The
charge amperage is to be as high as possible up to 20% of the C/20 rate
(C/20 = 60Ah therefore the max charge amperage is 12 Amps.
So at 20 deg C (68 deg F), I will charge at 13.7 Volts per battery at
12
Amps
1. When is charging finished? When amps drop below a certain level?
When
voltage drops?
2. When charging is finished, should I put it on a float voltage? It
says
the float voltage to be 13.55 volts - but at how many amps?
3. The battery tech literature stresses that the charger **must** be
temp
compensated. I have a PFC-30 - do I have to temp compensate manually?
I
will have thermally controlled battery warmers, but I suspect it will
take
them a while to bring the batteries up to temp.
thanks for the help
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> PFC is supposed to be high
You can tell by measuring the input voltage and current with a meter,
multiply them together (to get watts input), and compare it to the volts
x amps out (watts output). If is is about 80% efficient, it has to be
PFC. If you get some absurd number (like 50% or 120% efficient), it is
not PFC and your meters are lying to you due to the nonsinusoidal
waveform.
> If you run an unaltered 240V item on 120V, and it *does* have the
> correct voltage output, what would you expect the output amps to run?
There is no way of knowing; it is entirely up to the designer. It will
do whatever he/she designed it to do -- work normally, work but deliver
reduced power, not work at all, or fail with a bang!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Luxeon tech I mentioned is a whole different ballgame compared to
"superbright" LEDs.
Sadly, LED "brightness" is 99% marketing hype, and 1% substance.
Luxeon, like all the rest, maximizes the hype. They deliberately use
confusing units and on-standard measurements to make their products
sound better than they really are.
Have you ever used or seen the Luxeon based products?? I completely
agree with your assessment of LED marketing, but that is true for almost
all marketing of all products. Making things sound better than they
truly are is the name of the marketing game for almost all products.
You made no substantive assertions that Luxeon tech is crap other than
to lump the marketing in with the other LED techs. I would counter that
MANY lighting products are poorly and unscientifically marketed using
terms like "superbright" or by listing only power consumption (wattage).
Again, I suggest you look at 100 flashlights and see how many list
"real" brightness numbers. VERY few do this.
If you've actually used the Luxeon tech, you must know it is in a class
above all other LED based tech out there. It really makes low power
lighting possible and practical for the first time. Given that this is
such a desireable thing for us EV transporters, I wonder why you seem so
negative on it in general.
As a Luxeon user, I can say without a doubt that the tech is real, it is
practical, and it is very bright. Brighter than ALL incandescent
products? Certainly not. Bright enough to compete with basic DOT
approved headlights? Absolutely.
The previously mentioned triple Luxeon cluster with the focusing optics
will definitely compare head to head with a standard DOT headlight at a
fraction of the power consumption.
Anyway, not looking for a fight. Just stating an opinion as an avid fan
of the technology.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Coate wrote:
> I didn't think hydrogen and oxygen would do much recombining just
> because they're hanging out in the same space.
> Once the reaction starts it is very exothermic.
> So I'm not sure I believe that this can really work as described.
The hydrocaps are stuffed with stainless steel wool having a trace
amount of platinum on it. Platinum acts as a catalyst for the H2+O2=H2O
reaction.
As you guessed, the reaction produces a lot of heat! The water is
produced in the form of steam. The rate of H2 production has to be low
enough so the steam can condense back into water and drip back into the
cells. At too high a gassing rate, the caps get hot and steam -- or
melt!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken, I looked at the Luxeon web site, but could not find LEDs for head
lights. What product of theirs are you using for head lights?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ken Trough
Sent: January 8, 2005 2:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: LED Head Lights?
>> The Luxeon tech I mentioned is a whole different ballgame compared
>> to "superbright" LEDs.
> Sadly, LED "brightness" is 99% marketing hype, and 1% substance.
> Luxeon, like all the rest, maximizes the hype. They deliberately use
> confusing units and on-standard measurements to make their products
> sound better than they really are.
Have you ever used or seen the Luxeon based products?? I completely agree
with your assessment of LED marketing, but that is true for almost all
marketing of all products. Making things sound better than they truly are is
the name of the marketing game for almost all products.
You made no substantive assertions that Luxeon tech is crap other than to
lump the marketing in with the other LED techs. I would counter that MANY
lighting products are poorly and unscientifically marketed using terms like
"superbright" or by listing only power consumption (wattage).
Again, I suggest you look at 100 flashlights and see how many list "real"
brightness numbers. VERY few do this.
If you've actually used the Luxeon tech, you must know it is in a class
above all other LED based tech out there. It really makes low power lighting
possible and practical for the first time. Given that this is such a
desireable thing for us EV transporters, I wonder why you seem so negative
on it in general.
As a Luxeon user, I can say without a doubt that the tech is real, it is
practical, and it is very bright. Brighter than ALL incandescent products?
Certainly not. Bright enough to compete with basic DOT approved headlights?
Absolutely.
The previously mentioned triple Luxeon cluster with the focusing optics will
definitely compare head to head with a standard DOT headlight at a fraction
of the power consumption.
Anyway, not looking for a fight. Just stating an opinion as an avid fan of
the technology.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug and All,
--- Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
> Given that I was able to fit 16 Orbitals into my
> Ghia, I'm sure you're
> correct. It was easy - eight behind the back seat
> and eight under the
> front hood. None in the engine bay. It remains to
> be seen how it will
> handle, though. I'm hoping for the best, and
> treating this arrangement
> as temporary until proven.
This really worries me as I use a Vw bug front
axle and can only put in 6 t-105's in front of my
3wheeler and it still drags the ground.
Ghia's and bugs were designed for most weight in
the rear. I'd put some batts, at least 4, behind the
transaxle. And if you don't do this, handling will
stink even with helper springs!
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> Others (John Bryan for one) have also managed to fit
> unlikely numbers
> of batteries into the Karmann Ghia. John didn't
> worry about modifying
> the sheet metal on his car and preserved his cargo
> space behind the
> back seat, plus he was able to mount most of his
> batteries lower than
> mine.
>
> Jay Donnaway is also working to stuff lots of
> batteries into his Ghia.
> He's got a bit less room than John and I because he
> has a convertible,
> but he's not afraid to get out the welder either.
>
> Anyway, VW Karmann Ghias have a lot of useful space
> for stowing
> batteries. Pity the engine bay is so open to the
> elements, though.
> >
> >
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> http://learn-something.blogsite.org
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
I have been "roped" into helping a friend rebuild a battery pack for his
forklift. Specifically, he has bought from a scrap dealer two packs that
are similar to his old one, (the pack footprint is different and the cells
a little smaller) that have bad cells in each pack. Of course "helping"
means me doing the tech work, he's doing the labouring.
So far I have cycled the packs, adding acid to bring up the SG of the cells
that had low SG at gassing stage. The cells that are OK are now making
close to nameplate (nameplate is 500aH, pulling 100A for 4.5 hours,
terminate on lowest cell in the remaining group). I have bypassed the cells
that are weak or dead, and am now at the point where I'm about to select
the cells to be re-used. I'm not certain how much of the capacity increase
is due to strengthening the acid, and how much is from cycling and extended
equalising.
The battery interconnects are typical forklift lead bars, cast onto the
posts. We will have plenty of leftover lead and old cells to practice on. I
know that re-casting posts has been discussed, but what is the best way of
getting good cast without melting the battery tops?
I have used a holesaw to remove a couple of cell connections, I assume that
the best size to use is as close to the outside diameter of the posts?
I assume that I should I vee the casting holes? It'll be easy as I remove
them, just using larger and smaller holesaws will make a stepped vee pattern.
How hot should I have the casting lead? If not hot enough it won't melt
into the post and interconnect. Is there such a thing as too hot (within
reason?)
Thanks
James Massey
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was comparing the Luxeon highest output flood set. Rated at 450 Lums. Where
as a standard GE 60W bulb puts out 980 Lums. That is not bright enough for head
lamps. But it is bright enough for Brake lamps, turn signal and back up lights.
On www.lunaraccents.com website they talk about the use of LEDS in Cadillac's
and other higher end vehicles because they use less power and react faster than
standard bulb and have long life. Unfortunately at the cost of the Flood LED's
I will be buying regular lamps until the price drops a little.
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Ken, I looked at the Luxeon web site, but
could not find LEDs for head
lights. What product of theirs are you using for head lights?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ken Trough
Sent: January 8, 2005 2:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: LED Head Lights?
>> The Luxeon tech I mentioned is a whole different ballgame compared
>> to "superbright" LEDs.
> Sadly, LED "brightness" is 99% marketing hype, and 1% substance.
> Luxeon, like all the rest, maximizes the hype. They deliberately use
> confusing units and on-standard measurements to make their products
> sound better than they really are.
Have you ever used or seen the Luxeon based products?? I completely agree
with your assessment of LED marketing, but that is true for almost all
marketing of all products. Making things sound better than they truly are is
the name of the marketing game for almost all products.
You made no substantive assertions that Luxeon tech is crap other than to
lump the marketing in with the other LED techs. I would counter that MANY
lighting products are poorly and unscientifically marketed using terms like
"superbright" or by listing only power consumption (wattage).
Again, I suggest you look at 100 flashlights and see how many list "real"
brightness numbers. VERY few do this.
If you've actually used the Luxeon tech, you must know it is in a class
above all other LED based tech out there. It really makes low power lighting
possible and practical for the first time. Given that this is such a
desireable thing for us EV transporters, I wonder why you seem so negative
on it in general.
As a Luxeon user, I can say without a doubt that the tech is real, it is
practical, and it is very bright. Brighter than ALL incandescent products?
Certainly not. Bright enough to compete with basic DOT approved headlights?
Absolutely.
The previously mentioned triple Luxeon cluster with the focusing optics will
definitely compare head to head with a standard DOT headlight at a fraction
of the power consumption.
Anyway, not looking for a fight. Just stating an opinion as an avid fan of
the technology.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found this site very interesting.
I plan to build one of these LC meters:
<http://ironbark.bendigo.latrobe.edu.au/~rice/lc/>
``By Phil Rice VK3BHR
Almost as published in Amateur Radio magazine, April 2004.
Measuring range is from 0 to >0.1uF for capacitance and 0 to >10mH for
inductance.
Expected accuracy is +/- 1% of reading +/- 0.1pF or +/- 10nH"
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To drill out lead links on battery cells (really are call JARS), used a wood
plug drill that looks something like a hole saw. This drill has one taper
cutting edge that mills the lead with no build up on the cutting blades.
The wood plug drills are normally used for make wood plugs for filling
recessed screw head holes.
When doing this work, it is best to discharge the battery down to 1.200 SG
and let it set for 24 hours or more.
If you are not using air tools, and using non-enclosed electric drills,
place a wet paper towels over the cells.
If you cannot find a plug drill in the correct size, should be at least 3/4
inch inside diameter, you could make one by welding on a steel pipe onto a
old hole saw.
Shape the end of the steel pipe like a wood plug cutting edge is shape.
After the links are removed, you can dig out the battery sealer compound
that seals the tops to the case.
Again, take a reading of the Specific Gravity of the electrolite. In some
cases if you reused the same cell plates, used the same Specific Gravity
reading of new acid or filter old acid.
When you remove the cell plates, quickly immersed it into distilled water
in a large glass jar. Many times I found that the separators have fail and
just need replacing.
Do change separators, which a porous plastic type, just slide in the new
separators while you slide out the old ones. Many times when you do this,
the cell voltage will come up.
Also build up of particles that come off the positive plate which is PbO2
pile up in the bottom of the cell case, could short out some cell plates.
Sometimes, just cleaning out the cell container and replacing it with the
same Specific Gravity of electrolyte you remove will bring the voltage and
load rating up.
To reseal the cell tops, used Glass Setting Butyl Tape that is used for
setting windshields, this compound is very sticky. Press in very tightly
and smooth out the top surface with putty knife dip in soapy water.
To keep dust and dirt sticking to this compound, put a skim coat of black or
clear Lexon caulking on top of the Butyl and also smooth out with a soapy
plastic or meter putty knife.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:33 PM
Subject: servicing wet cells and remaking traction cell interconnects
> Hi all
>
> I have been "roped" into helping a friend rebuild a battery pack for his
> forklift. Specifically, he has bought from a scrap dealer two packs that
> are similar to his old one, (the pack footprint is different and the cells
> a little smaller) that have bad cells in each pack. Of course "helping"
> means me doing the tech work, he's doing the labouring.
>
> So far I have cycled the packs, adding acid to bring up the SG of the
> cells
> that had low SG at gassing stage. The cells that are OK are now making
> close to nameplate (nameplate is 500aH, pulling 100A for 4.5 hours,
> terminate on lowest cell in the remaining group). I have bypassed the
> cells
> that are weak or dead, and am now at the point where I'm about to select
> the cells to be re-used. I'm not certain how much of the capacity increase
> is due to strengthening the acid, and how much is from cycling and
> extended
> equalising.
>
> The battery interconnects are typical forklift lead bars, cast onto the
> posts. We will have plenty of leftover lead and old cells to practice on.
> I
> know that re-casting posts has been discussed, but what is the best way of
> getting good cast without melting the battery tops?
>
> I have used a holesaw to remove a couple of cell connections, I assume
> that
> the best size to use is as close to the outside diameter of the posts?
>
> I assume that I should I vee the casting holes? It'll be easy as I remove
> them, just using larger and smaller holesaws will make a stepped vee
> pattern.
>
> How hot should I have the casting lead? If not hot enough it won't melt
> into the post and interconnect. Is there such a thing as too hot (within
> reason?)
>
> Thanks
>
> James Massey
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> As of this past August, the word from Dr. John Olson of Optima fame is
> that 4A is the maximum recombination current an Optima will support
> without thermal runaway, and that 2A for 1hr will result in a loss of
> less than 1g of H2O even if all of the energy goes into electrolysis.
I would be happy with 2 amps, for real!
I need to talk to him, he bought a Reg recently....
Even at 2 amps the voltage on a Yt goes way up into the 16s and 17s. Way
too high for me.
I have seen venting at less than 2 amps... If I get venting... I drop volts
and amps if I can.
>
> Optima's definitely gas at 2A, they may even vent at 2A (I've seen it at
> lower currents too).
>
> Is this why Zivan's on Sparrows kill YTs? Who knows; this is at least
> the 3rd plausible theory I've heard.
And the other two are???
>
> > I have seen gassing as low as 15 volts at 500
> > milliamps. With a new set of Yts, half a amp will drive them
> > to 17 some odd volts. So.... You still need Regs..
>
> This is where we can only agree to disagree; as far as I'm concerned
> once you're over the gassing threshold you worry about current to
> regulate the gassing rate and avoid venting; let the voltage go where it
> wants to so the plates can fully charge. The only hesitation I have
> here is that Hawker recommends a maximum of 15.6V for their batteries,
> so I would observe this, however, they also state that the finish charge
> must continue for the full duration even if the voltage hits this limit,
> so I still wouldn't use a reg unless I could kick it up to the higher
> finish voltage limit.
I don't understand why they say this.
It clearly results in damage to do this. by not permiting this, you seam to
get long life and
no venting. Everybody with a Pedigree say more voltage and longer hold
times. All us folks with lab time and
busted knuckles... say less volts and protection. And have Nice long lived
packs.
Who's right??? I dunno. But I seam to have pretty good results.
These folks with "pedigrees" test tons of batteries under very
controlled conditions to find out what charge algorithm makes the batteries
last the longest. You, on the other hand, set the charger to what you think
will work best on a pack or two. I think the folks that have tested
thousands of batteries under controlled conditions have a slightly better
handle on maximizing cycle life.
The charge algorithm is a compromise between several "evils."
There are four basic "wear" mechanisms for an AGM VRLA battery.
1) Water loss
2) Sulfation
3) Grid corrosion
4) Paste degradation
Unless you are leaving your battery on a "float" charge for
extended periods, grid corrosion is not an issue for you. The typical EV
does not sit for many days or weeks between cycles, so I'll skip grid
corrosion.
When you fully discharge and then charge an AGM to, say, 14.5
volts (tapered to less than an amp,) the positive plate is fully charged,
but the negative plate is still discharged about 3 or 4%. You now have a
choice as to which manner of death you choose for the battery.
A) If you stop the charge at this point, the battery will lose capacity on
each cycle as the negative plate gets farther and farther behind. The
negative plate will also sulfate while it is left partially charged on a
continuous basis. This will make a short cycle life.
B) You can overcharge the positive plate while forcing in the 4% that the
negative plate needs. If you do this too quickly, the battery loses a lot
of water because the gas cannot recombine at the rate you are producing it.
(You will be very effective in removing sulfation, however.) If you do it
too slowly, the leakage of the vents will cause the battery to lose water
and you won't have the voltage to remove any sulfation. About the maximum
constant current (of overcharge) that an Optima can take without losing a
bunch of water is 2 amps. This method is a trade-off between water loss and
sulfation.
C) You can apply the overcharge intermittently. That is, you can apply a
modest current (about 2 amps for an Optima) for, say, 30 seconds, and then
"rest" for 30 seconds. This 30 second "pulse" supplies the voltage needed
to remove sulfation, but does not create large gas bubbles. The 30 second
"rest" allows time for the gas to recombine to water. Thus, you fully
charge the negative plate, remove any sulfation, and lose very little water.
The disadvantage is this "pulse" in the finish charge is not
something that a simple (read "cheap") charger can do.
Choosing "A" will result in a short battery life span. The
capacity will degrade quickly and will remain low throughout the life of
the battery. When the battery is nearly useless from sulfation, it will
still have plenty of water.
Choosing "B" will result in a greatly increased life span (close
to or greater than the spec sheet) if you time the finish charge to deliver
the required 4% overcharge. If you set the finish charge duration to some
constant time, (instead of adjusting it to 4%) the life span will be
something less than the spec sheet. The battery will run out of water at
about the same time as the paste starts to degrade. The capacity will
remain high until the water runs out.
Choosing "C" will result in a life span that will exceed the spec
sheet, perhaps by a factor of two or more. This assumes that you time the
finish charge to deliver the required 4% overcharge (and not some fixed
duration.) The battery will die when the paste finally degrades. It will
have plenty of water and will not be sulfated.
You can choose what you want to do; Spend the money on the charger
or spend the money on replacement batteries. :^)
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One more thing I forgot to add.
In releading the links on the cell post. Used a flame tip, that gives a
long oxygen flame that you can see with is surround by the outer cooler
flame.
The flame should be long and thin. Using pure lead rods or wire (sometimes
you can get this lead in rolls of 3/16 to 1/4 inch diameter used for making
fishing line lead weight which you can pick up at sporting goods store),
place this wire down deep between the post and link.
Position the flame on the end of this wire and surrounding lead area until
it starts to pool. Then position the flame only on the end of wire to
continue to rise the pool of lead.
Sometimes if you stay too long on the surrounding lead area and the lead
link is not press down tightly, you could have lead licking out onto the
cell top.
It is best to clamp the lead link down tightly using one of those large wood
carpentor clamps, or could tempory make one with two pieces of wood and
threaded rod.
If you are leaving the cell casing in place with the other cells, then you
should provide some over head weight on it.
Also, cover the cell tops with wet paper towels while doing this operation.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 4:33 PM
Subject: servicing wet cells and remaking traction cell interconnects
> Hi all
>
> I have been "roped" into helping a friend rebuild a battery pack for his
> forklift. Specifically, he has bought from a scrap dealer two packs that
> are similar to his old one, (the pack footprint is different and the cells
> a little smaller) that have bad cells in each pack. Of course "helping"
> means me doing the tech work, he's doing the labouring.
>
> So far I have cycled the packs, adding acid to bring up the SG of the
> cells
> that had low SG at gassing stage. The cells that are OK are now making
> close to nameplate (nameplate is 500aH, pulling 100A for 4.5 hours,
> terminate on lowest cell in the remaining group). I have bypassed the
> cells
> that are weak or dead, and am now at the point where I'm about to select
> the cells to be re-used. I'm not certain how much of the capacity increase
> is due to strengthening the acid, and how much is from cycling and
> extended
> equalising.
>
> The battery interconnects are typical forklift lead bars, cast onto the
> posts. We will have plenty of leftover lead and old cells to practice on.
> I
> know that re-casting posts has been discussed, but what is the best way of
> getting good cast without melting the battery tops?
>
> I have used a holesaw to remove a couple of cell connections, I assume
> that
> the best size to use is as close to the outside diameter of the posts?
>
> I assume that I should I vee the casting holes? It'll be easy as I remove
> them, just using larger and smaller holesaws will make a stepped vee
> pattern.
>
> How hot should I have the casting lead? If not hot enough it won't melt
> into the post and interconnect. Is there such a thing as too hot (within
> reason?)
>
> Thanks
>
> James Massey
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a bug with 10 orbitals in the front and it
handles just fine it has spring over shocks I have
preped the rear to hold another 10 and will soon have
this completed. the car weighs in at 1900 lbs now and
will only weigh 2400 when finished the batts are all
in. Now all i need is a zilla so it will go quicker
keith
--- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Doug and All,
> --- Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >>
> > Given that I was able to fit 16 Orbitals into my
> > Ghia, I'm sure you're
> > correct. It was easy - eight behind the back seat
> > and eight under the
> > front hood. None in the engine bay. It remains
> to
> > be seen how it will
> > handle, though. I'm hoping for the best, and
> > treating this arrangement
> > as temporary until proven.
>
> This really worries me as I use a Vw bug front
> axle and can only put in 6 t-105's in front of my
> 3wheeler and it still drags the ground.
> Ghia's and bugs were designed for most weight in
> the rear. I'd put some batts, at least 4, behind the
> transaxle. And if you don't do this, handling will
> stink even with helper springs!
> HTH's,
> jerry dycus
>
> >
> > Others (John Bryan for one) have also managed to
> fit
> > unlikely numbers
> > of batteries into the Karmann Ghia. John didn't
> > worry about modifying
> > the sheet metal on his car and preserved his cargo
> > space behind the
> > back seat, plus he was able to mount most of his
> > batteries lower than
> > mine.
> >
> > Jay Donnaway is also working to stuff lots of
> > batteries into his Ghia.
> > He's got a bit less room than John and I because
> he
> > has a convertible,
> > but he's not afraid to get out the welder either.
> >
> > Anyway, VW Karmann Ghias have a lot of useful
> space
> > for stowing
> > batteries. Pity the engine bay is so open to the
> > elements, though.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Doug Weathers
> > Bend, OR, USA
> > http://learn-something.blogsite.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just thinking out loud here. Not directly to anyone, just
in general. This is for potential discussion with my non EV
friends. Questions and concerns they have about converting.
Is my "argument" / viewpoint sound?
How many times a week do you fill up your gas car? Let's
say once a week. About $20 to fill it up. $80 a month is
$1040 a year in fuel costs(52 weeks/year).
The money it costs to build an EV is no different then if
you bought a "new" used car for example. Or you sold your
gas car to build the EV. So lets not consider the build
costs.
A current drawback to the EV is pack replacement. Let's say
worst case is a 2 year life from the pack. ~$1200 for 12,
12 volt batteries vs's $2080 for 2 years of fuel.
How many years do you all get from your packs? 3, 4, or 5
years? Someone on here said his YT's are on their 8th year.
That would be $8,320 in fuel costs.
The part I don't know about is the electric bill. Sure I'm
not buying fuel anymore; I'm buying electricity now. Around
here, our price per kWh is 7 cents.
What does your charger do to your electricity bill? How
much of an increase per month because of it? Maybe even,
how much does it cost per day to recharge the pack?
http://www.oge.com/es/bc/customer-rates.asp
At some point in time, if gas prices ever increase to
$3/gallon or above, pack replacement won't look so bad
compared to weekly fuel purchases.. Even at $2 or less,
pack replacement could look preferable to fuel purchases.
I feel range is a non issue to an extent. For MOST people,
running errands around town doesn't add up to 40+ miles.
Also, if you live some what close to work, you can easily
make it there and back. I think it's crazy to live 2+ hours
away from work and go there and back everyday. I can't
stand commuting. The times I've had a 15 or 20 minute drive
to work I considered moving closer. I loathed the commute.
I would have moved too had I had the job any longer. ;)
Out of town, or out of state trips are the only place I can
think of that range factors in. Gas cars can be rented for
~$20 a day. I'd rather put the wear and tear and miles on
their car instead of mine anyways. Just how often does
someone drive out of state anyways?
For the weather issue, you could also have a gas pickup
truck for your parts truck and use it for foul weather. If
it's nice take the EV, if it's really cold, raining, or
snowing, take the truck. I'd rather have someone crash into
my ~$1,000 truck then my EV anyways. Think about those
beefy front and rear bumpers on a truck, not to mention the
full frame. Also it rides higher, so you will potential be
above the impact. You can pick up another truck any day of
the week for cheap.
The comment I get most about EV's is something like "but it
only goes 40 miles though". I say, "but you don't even
drive 40 miles a day so what's it matter!?" They never have
an answer for that.
One reason I feel that people don't care about the pollution
their car makes is because they can't smell it. The
catalytic converter makes the exhaust be out of sight, out
of mind. Ever behind an older carbureted truck that's
running rich with no converter? If all cars were still like
that, I think people would care. Also the fact that they
can't "see" the exhaust. If the cars all blew out thick
diesel exhaust like you see sometimes on older trucks, then
they'd notice.
As a test, someone could dump some oil in the underground
fuel tank at the gas station so everyones car would blow out
blue smoke like a 2 stroke lawn mower does or a car that is
burning oil does. People might think "wow, that car is
really polluting..." Then they'd think "glad mines not",
even though it really is...
:)
Regards
P.S.
"Those"discussions" are best relegated to the appropriate
Usenet newsgroup."
For future reference, what are "those" appropriate Usenet
groups anyways? There's only about 56,000 or more
groups(most of them empty) and I didn't find any active
groups by searching for the word "electric".. Any active EV
Usenet groups?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The German Federal Environmental Agency has a study of tire environmental
factors on their web site. The report is here:
http://www.umweltdaten.de/uba-info-presse/hintergrund/03pkw-reifenliste.pdf
linked from here:
http://www.umweltbundesamt.de/uba-info-daten/daten/reifen.htm
There is some overlap with what was tested by Green Seal
http://www.greenseal.org/recommendations/CGR_LowTireResistance.pdf
but what I'd like to know is what Green Seal tested that was unsuitable,
and so far I haven't found that.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:07 PM 8/01/05 -0700, Roland wrote:
To drill out lead links on battery cells
(snip)
Wow, thanks Roland. Traction cell interconnects 101!
Thank you.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan and All,
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just thinking out loud here. Not directly to
> anyone, just
> in general. This is for potential discussion with
> my non EV
> friends. Questions and concerns they have about
> converting.
> Is my "argument" / viewpoint sound?
>
As they say, that depends!
>
> How many times a week do you fill up your gas car?
> Let's
> say once a week. About $20 to fill it up. $80 a
> month is
> $1040 a year in fuel costs(52 weeks/year).
Most do more than that, 2 or 3 times in many
cases.
>
> The money it costs to build an EV is no different
> then if
> you bought a "new" used car for example. Or you
> sold your
> gas car to build the EV. So lets not consider the
> build
> costs.
If done right, this is true.
>
> A current drawback to the EV is pack replacement.
> Let's say
> worst case is a 2 year life from the pack. ~$1200
> for 12,
> 12 volt batteries vs's $2080 for 2 years of fuel.
More like 20 batts at $60 each so the same cost.
Though my 1,000lb EV does fine with just 6-8
batts for just $420/pack.
>
> How many years do you all get from your packs? 3,
> 4, or 5
> years? Someone on here said his YT's are on their
> 8th year.
> That would be $8,320 in fuel costs.
Yt's are not economical. Consider them like you
would pay for a bigger optional engine.
In 8 yrs they would be fairly low range if they
last that long. Most would replace them before that.
Figure 4 yrs average for most packs.
>
> The part I don't know about is the electric bill.
> Sure I'm
> not buying fuel anymore; I'm buying electricity now.
> Around
> here, our price per kWh is 7 cents.
At $.10kwhr, I don't notice my electrc bill
increase. Most ev's need about $.02-.04/mile for
electricity. I use $,01/mile for mine built as an EV.
Figure your own from this.
>
> At some point in time, if gas prices ever increase
> to
> $3/gallon or above, pack replacement won't look so
> bad
> compared to weekly fuel purchases.. Even at $2 or
> less,
> pack replacement could look preferable to fuel
> purchases.
Like gas, depends on your EV and how eff it is.
>
> I feel range is a non issue to an extent. For MOST
> people,
> running errands around town doesn't add up to 40+
> miles.
True.
> ;)
>
> Out of town, or out of state trips are the only
> place I can
> think of that range factors in. Gas cars can be
> rented for
> ~$20 a day. I'd rather put the wear and tear and
You haven't rented for a while!!!!
I like using a 5kw per 1,000lbs gen for that. Great
gas mileage.
> miles on
> their car instead of mine anyways. Just how often
> does
> someone drive out of state anyways?
Depends.
>
> For the weather issue, you could also have a gas
> pickup
> truck for your parts truck and use it for foul
> weather. If
> it's nice take the EV, if it's really cold, raining,
> or
> snowing, take the truck. I'd rather have someone
That's a smart way to do it, use the EV for 90% of
your driving, the truck, car for the other 10%.
Older Honda Civic's, ect go for $600-1,000 and get
good mileage.
that is
> burning oil does. People might think "wow, that car
> is
> really polluting..." Then they'd think "glad mines
> not",
> even though it really is...
One listee says if the exhaust pipe came out the
steering wheel, would you drive it?
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> :)
>
> Regards
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry dycus wrote:
How many times a week do you fill up your gas car?
Let's
say once a week. About $20 to fill it up. $80 a
month is
$1040 a year in fuel costs(52 weeks/year).
Most do more than that, 2 or 3 times in many
cases.
I do less, but I often drive 200-300 miles when I make the big trips.
(there is no train to take here). I'd say it costs most people more than
$20 these days.
The money it costs to build an EV is no different
then if
you bought a "new" used car for example. Or you
sold your
gas car to build the EV. So lets not consider the
build
costs.
If done right, this is true.
You're leaving out the entertainment/enrichment value of
building/converting your own vehicle!
I feel range is a non issue to an extent. For MOST
people,
running errands around town doesn't add up to 40+
miles.
True.
I wish I could say 'true', I'd need 40 miles to go to the grocery store
and back. 300 miles one way to get to my parents' house.
Out of town, or out of state trips are the only
place I can
think of that range factors in. Gas cars can be
rented for
~$20 a day. I'd rather put the wear and tear and
You haven't rented for a while!!!!
I like using a 5kw per 1,000lbs gen for that. Great
gas mileage.
Excellent idea, if only I had the resources to build an ev.
miles on
their car instead of mine anyways. Just how often
does
someone drive out of state anyways?
Depends.
I'm in college, I go out of state a few times a year at no less than a
week in duration -> $$$ rental.
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
--- End Message ---
