EV Digest 4038
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) JCI battery for hybrids
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: 92 geo tracker for sale
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) =?windows-1252?Q?Volvo=92s_new_eco-friendly_runs_on_3=2C?=
=?windows-1252?Q?000_lithium-ion_batteries?=
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: site: McGill University Electric Snowmobile Team
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Battery Advice Needed Dynasty/Interstate DCS-100L
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: regen...
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 92 geo tracker for sale
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: regen...
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: regen...
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 92 geo tracker for sale
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) re: Ranger leases
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: EVLN(Th!nk 'Public' EV 12k, launch later this year)Comments
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: regen...
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Fwd: Next-Generation Nanotech Power Cell Batteries
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Tango comments- was Re: EVLN(Th!nk 'Public' EV 12k, launch later this year)
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Local suppliers can, and should, get in on the action, Flynn said.
"If people are going to make hybrids here, [U.S.-based] suppliers have to get
into the
game soon," he said. "The long-term attractiveness of the business is, if a
little
uncertain, looking better and better every quarter."
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/18/B03-62161.htm
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geo Tracker and Suzuki Sidekick are the same car. At that age is is about a
1.6l 4cyl fuel injected motor at around 95 hp - with either an automatic or
a 5 speed manual. The tracker came in 2 and 4 wheel drive with a transfer
case and manual or automatic hubs, in 2 and 4 door versions.
I have one (gas powered) and it gets around very nimbly on it's rather small
motor, but the car has the aerodynamics of a brick, so if you were to go
electric you would do much better in town than on the freeway. On the plus
side, it has a full ladder frame, so you could get very creative in mounting
your batteries underneath it and save almost all of your cab room. Just put
a little body lift on it and mount some kind of removable tray underneath.
Hmmmm.... Maybe after I finish with my Fiat EV I can see about a little
electric mini-jeep?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Coate
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 92 geo tracker for sale
I read my mail too late and the auction already closed at $1875, but out of
curiosity....
Anyone know what type of drive train might be found in a Geo Tracker?
billb wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> I noticed a 92 geo tracker for sale on the gsa site
> http://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/gsaauctions/
> get in and search by state for Massachusetts. Other than a broken
> windshield appears intact.
> bidding is at $1000 and will close on the 18th.
>
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*0–60* <10 seconds *Top speed* 85 mph *Max power* 105 hp *Range* 300 km
(186 mi) *Fuel* Electric *Weight* 2,300 lbs (est.)
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/whatsnew/article/0,20967,1016254,00.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 16:07:20 -0800 (PST), Sam Thurber
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>--- Neon John <jojohngdebellsouthet> wrote:
>
>> Actually that story explains quite well why major
>> OEOEMsrush instead of
>> sell prototype vehicles like these EVEVs Consider
>> "rancher" Rayboy What
>> does he do after Ford decides not to sell him a
>> vehicle that belongs to
>> Ford? Why, he runs to the attorney general, of
>> course.
>
>I was a leasee of the Ford Ranger as well and I resent
>you trying to paint "rancher Rayboy" as the one who
>won't live up to the lease terms.
That statement makes no sense at all.
>Ford is the one that
>did not live up to the terms of the lease. Mine
>allowed a lease renewal on a yearly basis as long as
>there were no major repairs required. Ford violated
>that term.
I bet they didn't. I bet there's a "convenience" clause in the lease that
let Ford terminate or not renew the lease at its convenience under certain
conditions. I know that Ford leases on regular cars contain such
verbiage.
>Also at the end of a lease, I was sent a
>letter offering to sell me the car, an offer I
>immediately accepted and sent a check. Ford then broke
>that promise too.
Ford made you an offer and not a promise. They, the same as you, had the
right to change their minds prior to the execution of the actual sales
contract. Agreed, Ford hurt your feeling but nothing more. I wonder how
loud you'd have yelled had something come up that made you not be able to
complete the sale and Ford had tried to hold YOU in rigid compliance?
>
>> With juries awarding one hundred million verdicts
>> against the car
>> companies right and left for little more than the
>> failure of 20/20
>
>This is a ridiculous argument that is continually
>recycled by the automakers. Ford and GM both got
>letters offering purchases of their EV's with an offer
>of a legal contract releasing them from any and all
>future and past liability for the product.
And as you know (or should know), such waivers are worth about the value
of the paper they're written on. Especially in California. Especially
when applied to Big Bad Evil Corporations(TM).
>This is another bit of automaker spin you have bought
>into. The Ranger EV, the EV1, the Toyota RAV4-EV, the
>Nissan Altra etc, etc, were all PRODUCTION vehicles.
>The automakers never sell or lease any "prototype" or
>"experimental" vehicles to the public. Just try buying
>one at any auto show. They are just using these terms
>to add an air of mystery to what is in reality a very
>simple yet revolutionary product. It's all just a PR
>game to confuse the public.
>
>As far as their claims that nobody wanted production
>EV's, that too doesn't hold any water. Every single
>production EV had long waiting lists for leases and
>purchases. Their was never one "sitting" on a dealers
>lot waiting for a buyer. All of the automakers selling
>or leasing to the public stopped making the EV's with
>people still on the waiting list.
I read somewhere that GM made something like 800 EV1s. Someone will
certainly correct me if I'm wrong. That isn't even a pilot plant run for
a major OEM. Consider this:
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/4939/usa.html
This puts car production numbers in perspective. Even specialty cars like
the Vette have production runs in the tens of thousands.
Here's another interesting page I found while googling for EV1 production
numbers:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=156,196&sid=196&article=1109
I can't find any hard production numbers on the Ford but it looks to be in
the range of 1000.
To put this in perspective, consider this government document on
alternative fuel vehicle production
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/CAFE/alternativefuels/availability1.htm
Just for Ford's dual fuel Ranger,
Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 97,100 (4-speed automatic)
Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 24,700 (5-speed manual)
Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 47,300 (4-speed automatic)
Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 19,300 (5-speed manual)
Chevy's truck production:
Sonoma 2WD-FFV: production of 12,500 (4-speed automatic)
Sonoma 2WD-FFV: production of 6,200 (5-speed manual)
S10 2WD FFV: production of 54,300 (4-speed automatic)
S10 2WD FFV: production of 26,100 (5-speed automatic)
For an OEM, sales potentials of tens of thousands of vehicles start
getting their attention. A sales potential of a few hundred vehicles
doesn't even register on the radar.
BTW, I found the archived EV1 page from GM where they showed a tour of the
"production" facility. Sorry, didn't save the URL. That site shows that
the EV1 was a hand-assembled pilot-production (aka prototype) type of
operation. No assembly line, just work clusters of technicians
hand-assembling the car. Ya, GM called it a production vehicle but that
was just marketing fluff.
The fact remains that if there IS a market for a production EV then
someone will fill the need. Small car producers are around. Look at
Panoz in Atlanta. They've been around for about 15 years now and make a
fine living on about 200 cars a year. Of course, Panoz's customers pay
the full market value for the cars without any subsidies.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 18:39:46 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>I was lucky enough to lease a Ranger until 2003, when they towed it off our
>street! I was never offered an extension of the lease or an option to buy. In
>my one town of Vacaville, there were over 200 people waiting to buy an EV, but
>there were too few vehicles for them to even get a lease, and only a handful
>were able to buy a RAV4 EV from Toyota before that, too, was cancelled.
Names on a waiting list mean essentially nothing. I read in one of the
business magazines that the sales conversion rate on waiting lists is in
the low single digit range. That pretty much represents my personal
business experience.
>I think the 2 Ranger EV leasees protestors are out-of-step with the proper way
>to get things done -- their way *does* peg them as the lunatic fringe...like
>that guy in the Mid-West who is already camping in front of a movie theater to
>be the first to get in to the final Star Wars movie (despite not even knowing
>if it will be shown there and 4 months wait if it is).
>
>It becomes a political discussion if you start calling people names for their
>desire to drive electric cars, and does not belong on this list.
No name calling on this end. I assume that everyone on this list wants to
drive an EV. Most of us already do.
>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am excited to see McGill entering the EV field. For those that don't know,
McGill is one of the highest rated universities in Canada, and has a very
good reputation internationally. Their graduates will find places in high
ranking positions. So this all can only mean good things for EV's in the
future.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone have any knowledge or experience with these deep cycle AGM batteries?
Dynasty DCS-100L, also sold as Interstate DCS-100L. Group 29, 69 lbs, 100
A/Hr.
http://www.dynastybattery.com/cd_dyn/products/batteries/dcs/dcs100l.htm
http://www.ibsa.com/www_2001/content/products/specs/dcs100l.pdf
I am considering a 10-pack, $129 each from the local Interstate distributor
in Vancouver, WA.
What do you think? Do you have any other suggestions for a reasonably priced
AGM group 29 or 31 battery?
The web page says "Batteries to be mounted with 0.5 in. (1.25 cm) spacing
minimum and free air ventilation.". Mine would be mounted all right next to
each other in a heated and semi-insulated compartment. Do you think this
will cause a problem? (I can watch battery temp with a cheap-o digital
indoor/outdoor thermometer attached to the top of one battery.)
Rick Barnes
1986 Chevy Sprint "Cloud Conversion"
Aloha, OR
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And if you could get an alternator off a semi-tractor...
You can see where I am going with this.
Seth
On Jan 19, 2005, at 1:01 AM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
Hi Gadget, On our two ton plus Land Rover I was smoking the brakes
going down the 6% plus mountain grades out of Jerome, Arizona. I took
a 100 amp Delco truck alternator and had the it rewound with much more
windings and isolated the negative from the frame and installed a
Negative external post. I also put in much larger diodes. It was
mounted with an electric clutch from an air conditioner. It was
activated by a switch on the dash or the brake light switch which
would engage the pulley and full field the alternator. When going down
the hill it would hold the beast back while dumping 20 plus amps at
240 volts back into the 192 volt pack. This is about 5 kw. This is a
fairly inexpensive regen system for series motors which can be
accomplished by most back yarders. If you wanted more regen control
you could vary the field strength. 100% politic free post :-)
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message ----- From: "Reverend Gadget"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:39 PM
Subject: regen...
This is sort of a question for Rich but others can
chime in. Part of my drive is going up a mountain
road, down through a valley then up the other side.
with a bit of regen I could get the range I need and
not have to ride my brakes for miles. I'm putting it
in a small light weight car. I'm looking for a simple
and cheap regen solution. I'm thinking of putting a
10k alternator in line with my ADC drive motor and a
set of contacts to engage the alternator when the
pedal is released. could I just put PFC charger on the
output of the alternator? would it control the output
well enough with the variety of voltages/frequencies
coming out of the alternator?
Gadget
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim, Mine was 4-wheel drive, but I opted to remove the front wheel drive
assembly to save approx 200 lbs and go with a rear wheel drive 5 speed
tranny. It was originally an automatic so I went clutchless with a downshift
throttle blipper which sets the motor to 1500 rpm's when downshifting (a
relay & resistor to the throttle pot). I chose this vehicle since there is
aftermarket jack up stuff www.calmini.com to put the batteries underneath
the vehicle with through floor inspection hatches. I used a CL-60 inrush for
a quiet operating vacuum pump, a ferro transformer to my uP controller
charger and my own control. The pack is centertapped through a 30A magnetic
breaker to the frame for emergency DC converter fail operation and to
minimize the shock potential of +-60V. It has an engage contactor in series
with the controller that actuates each time the peddle is pressed and a
bypass contactor also for safety (if the controller fails full on or off I
can make it to the next exit ramp). I made the DC converter from twin
forward converters with a single Unitrode/TI UCC3813 chip. The battery
scanner, controller, charger use the flash MC68HC908QY4 Motorola/Freescale
uP with a P&E development mon08 system.
Mark, Roanoke, VA www.solectrol.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: 92 geo tracker for sale
> I read my mail too late and the auction already closed at $1875, but out
> of curiosity....
>
> Anyone know what type of drive train might be found in a Geo Tracker?
>
>
> billb wrote:
> > Hi Folks,
> > I noticed a 92 geo tracker for sale on the gsa site
> > http://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/gsaauctions/
> > get in and search by state for Massachusetts. Other than a broken
> > windshield appears intact.
> > bidding is at $1000 and will close on the 18th.
> >
>
>
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roderick, Gadget and All,
--- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Gadget, On our two ton plus Land Rover I was
> smoking the brakes going
> down the 6% plus mountain grades out of Jerome,
> Arizona. I took a 100 amp
> Delco truck alternator and had the it rewound with
> much more windings and
> isolated the negative from the frame and installed a
> Negative external post.
> I also put in much larger diodes. It was mounted
> with an electric clutch
> from an air conditioner. It was activated by a
> switch on the dash or the
> brake light switch which would engage the pulley and
> full field the
> alternator. When going down the hill it would hold
> the beast back while
> dumping 20 plus amps at 240 volts back into the 192
> volt pack. This is about
> 5 kw. This is a fairly inexpensive regen system for
> series motors which can
> be accomplished by most back yarders. If you wanted
> more regen control you
> could vary the field strength. 100% politic free
> post :-)
Nice idea. Ever think about offering it for sale?
Using recycled housings it could be reasonably priced
at profit in 10 lots.
Another way could be a sep-ex A89 type with the
field control connected to the brake pedal and a
disconnect contactor.
It could be used as reverse also allowing to get
rid of reversing contactor in the main motor power
circuit if used. And add high end power for cruising,
passing where a series connected motor power drops out
without having to upshift, thus reducing amps some by
higher gearing.
Thanks,
jerry dycus
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:39 PM
> Subject: regen...
>
>
> > This is sort of a question for Rich but others can
> > chime in. Part of my drive is going up a mountain
> > road, down through a valley then up the other
> side.
> > with a bit of regen I could get the range I need
> and
> > not have to ride my brakes for miles. I'm putting
> it
> > in a small light weight car. I'm looking for a
> simple
> > and cheap regen solution. I'm thinking of putting
> a
> > 10k alternator in line with my ADC drive motor and
> a
> > set of contacts to engage the alternator when the
> > pedal is released. could I just put PFC charger on
> the
> > output of the alternator? would it control the
> output
> > well enough with the variety of
> voltages/frequencies
> > coming out of the alternator?
> >
> > Gadget
> >
> > =====
> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 -
> Release Date: 1/17/2005
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release
> Date: 1/17/2005
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is what I did some what in my 1977 El Camino
EV. The front of the GE pilot shaft, drives a accessory package that is on
a aluminum frame work that is use on GMC diesel trucks. Mounted on this
frame is all the accessories you need as for any vehicle. This frame holds
a very larger Delco Inverter Alternator that produces 12 to 15 volts at 145
amps and 120 volts at 7000 watts using a Dynamote Company Unit that is
design for the Delco Inverter Alternator.
When I was using a CableForm controller, the main contactor would close and
open when letting on the accelerator which has micro switches. When I click
on a dash control switch mark REGEN, the micro switch circuit would turn on
a small glass control relay that would turn off two isolating contactors
that provide power from the battery to the controller. Some normally call
these safety contactors.
Another AC magnetic contactor which is a duel contactor as for reversing
motors. This contactor when energized, would connected the
alternator-inverter to the on board battery charger, while disconnecting the
commercial power input circuits.
This acted just like compression braking of a ICE.
When I replace the CableForm controller with the Zilla, these contactors
must remain on all the time, or if you lose power to the Zilla, I have to
recycle the ignition start procedure every time if I connected this REGEN
circuit.
If I keep constant 12 volts on the Zilla, from a separated 12 volt source
leaving the main contactor on all the time, but turning off the two battery
power contactors, the precharger circuit then needs to be recycle when power
comes back on.
So, at this time, I do not used it in this mode. I used the rotating
inverter to power all my AC electric heating in the winter time and the 12
volts to power a another 5 kw inverter to power all other devices and
cooling systems.
This load which is driven off the main motor, also feels just like engine
compression, which does slow me down some what.
When the main motor power is on, all the drives units used about 6 motor
amps to run. When I in a coasting mode, the motor amps is now 0, while all
accessory drives are in operating mode.
So it is like a REGEN, directly to the accessories, not to the battery by
passing all the additional devices and circuits needed.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:39 PM
Subject: regen...
> This is sort of a question for Rich but others can
> chime in. Part of my drive is going up a mountain
> road, down through a valley then up the other side.
> with a bit of regen I could get the range I need and
> not have to ride my brakes for miles. I'm putting it
> in a small light weight car. I'm looking for a simple
> and cheap regen solution. I'm thinking of putting a
> 10k alternator in line with my ADC drive motor and a
> set of contacts to engage the alternator when the
> pedal is released. could I just put PFC charger on the
> output of the alternator? would it control the output
> well enough with the variety of voltages/frequencies
> coming out of the alternator?
>
> Gadget
>
> =====
> visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was more wondering what type of electric drive train would have wound
up in one used by a government entity... but this other information is
interesting. Having the frame adds it to the list of potential DIY
conversions, and starting with a 95 HP ICE, not too hard to beat the
performance as an EV...
Kevin Coughlin wrote:
> Geo Tracker and Suzuki Sidekick are the same car. ...
> ... On the plus side, it has a full ladder frame, so
> you could get very creative in mounting your
> batteries underneath it and save almost all of your cab room.
billb wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> I noticed a 92 geo tracker for sale on the gsa site
> http://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/gsaauctions/
> get in and search by state for Massachusetts. Other than a broken
> windshield appears intact.
> bidding is at $1000 and will close on the 18th.
>
--
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I bet they didn't. I bet there's a "convenience"
> clause in the lease that let Ford terminate or not
> renew the lease at its convenience under certain
> conditions. I know that Ford leases on regular cars
> contain such verbiage.
You should stick to what you know, because your
generally a smart guy but you are wrong on this as
well. There was no such clause in the lease, I had it
reviewed by a lawyer before I refused to return the
Ranger not because I planned on suing, which I never
did, but because I don't make it a habit of breaking
the law. I returned the vehicle as promised when it
needed repairs because that WAS a clause in the lease.
>>Also at the end of a lease, I was sent a
>>letter offering to sell me the car, an offer I
>>immediately accepted and sent a check. Ford then
>>broke that promise too.
>Ford made you an offer and not a promise. They, the
>same as you, had the right to change their minds
prior >to the execution of the actual sales
>contract. Agreed, Ford hurt your feeling but nothing
>more. I wonder how loud you'd have yelled had
>something come up that made you not be able
>to complete the sale and Ford had tried to hold YOU
in >rigid compliance?
Call it what you want, but if I had made an offer in
writing to Ford and then "changed my mind" or claimed
that "my computer accidently sent the letter and I
didn't really mean it" as Ford did, I would fully
expect to be held accountable to that offer. You're
still trying to imply that the lessee's of the Ford
Ranger are a bunch of cry-babies. You simply have no
idea what you're talking about.
>> With juries awarding one hundred million verdicts
>> against the car
>> companies right and left for little more than the
>> failure of 20/20
>
>This is a ridiculous argument that is continually
>recycled by the automakers. Ford and GM both got
>letters offering purchases of their EV's with an
offer
>of a legal contract releasing them from any and all
>future and past liability for the product.
>And as you know (or should know), such waivers are
>worth about the
>value of the paper they're written on. Especially in
>California. Especially when applied to Big Bad Evil
>Corporations(TM).
Yet another ridiculous assertion that the automaker's
PR companies respond with. They have yet to produce
evidence of a single successful or even unsuccessful
lawsuit against them after such a waiver was signed.
In fact I don't know of one for any other consumer
product either, do you? If it's never happened in the
past, why are they so sure it's going to happen in the
future. Also, did you live in California? Do you have
any personal experience with California liability laws
or are you spouting off again about things you have no
personal experience with?
>This is another bit of automaker spin you have bought
>into. The Ranger EV, the EV1, the Toyota RAV4-EV, the
>Nissan Altra etc, etc, were all PRODUCTION vehicles.
>The automakers never sell or lease any "prototype" or
>"experimental" vehicles to the public. Just try
buying
>one at any auto show. They are just using these terms
>to add an air of mystery to what is in reality a very
>simple yet revolutionary product. It's all just a PR
>game to confuse the public.
>
>As far as their claims that nobody wanted production
>EV's, that too doesn't hold any water. Every single
>production EV had long waiting lists for leases and
>purchases. Their was never one "sitting" on a dealers
>lot waiting for a buyer. All of the automakers
selling
>or leasing to the public stopped making the EV's with
>people still on the waiting list.
>Ya, GM called it a production vehicle but
>that
>was just marketing fluff.
They called it a production vehicle because it was
meant for private sale or lease. That's all I meant by
the term, I guess you can assign any definition to the
word you want. I consider the Panoz vehicles
"production" and the Venturi is making a "production"
run of 25 EV's in Monaco. Experimental, prototype, and
concept cars all mean the same thing to me and most of
the public, something we can drool over at a car show
and nothing more. That said, I realize that if you
weren't in the right place at the right time, i.e.
California in 1997, 1999, or 2002, all the
"production" EV's were exactly that so I guess you
have a point.
>The fact remains that if there IS a market for a
>production EV then
>someone will fill the need.
I agree and so does/did GM. Such production was in
progress when they came out with their EV1 and all the
promises of bigger and better EV's in just a few more
years. That effectively killed off the small maker
competition as well as a big chunk of the conversion
market as many on this list will attest.
As far as the EV's being subsidized, the state of
California and federal government did subsidize the
purchase or lease price of every single production EV
to the tune of $13,000 a car ($9,000 by the state and
$4000 by the feds). That subsidy was ostensibly to
offset the high start-up cost of the EV's until they
could reach economies of mass production. In exchange,
everyone in the state got cleaner air and reduced
gasoline demand. By taking perfectly good EV's off the
roads early that are being replaced by ICE vehicles,
the automakers are defrauding both the California and
American taxpayers of that subsidy and that doesn't
even consider the millions of taxpayer dollars wasted
on the rediculous Magnacharger and Avcon charging
infrastructure schemes or what went into the
automakers coffers directly to support "battery
research." Don't even get me started on their most
recent pie in the sky, hydrogen fuel cell, corporate
welfare schemes.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
To put this in perspective, consider this government document on
alternative fuel vehicle production
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/CAFE/alternativefuels/availability1.htm
Just for Ford's dual fuel Ranger,
Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 97,100 (4-speed automatic)
Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 24,700 (5-speed manual)
Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 47,300 (4-speed automatic)
Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 19,300 (5-speed manual)
Be careful of this statistic.. the auto manufacturers have been
enthusatically building dual fuel vehicles becuase a loophole in the
CAFE standards allows dual fuel vehicles to qualify as getting 2x their
fuel mileage in CAFE calculations. Thus a 22mpg Ranger that _can_ run
on ethanol counts as getting 44mpg, even if it never is actually run on
ethanol. Several manufacturers have been selling so many SUV's with mid
teens mpg that they are in danger of not meeting the 21mpg fleet fuel
economy standard for light trucks.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
> > Subject: EVLN(Th!nk 'Public' EV 12k, launch later this year)
> > > Snip a Bit_
> >
> > > The Norwegian electric city car manufacturer saved in
> 2003 by a new
> > >
> > > Swiss owner from closure by former owner Ford has developed a new
> > > Th!nk Public model.
> > >
> > > Th!nk Public, due for launch later this year, is a
> four-seater with
> > >
> > > a maximum speed of just 30mph, intended mainly for passengers
> > > transferring from airports and stations to city centres.
> > >
> > > An > -
> > > Hi EVerybody;
> >
> > Just as I thought, Gees! A GOOD thing in the E mail to
> wake up to
> this
> > AM, .....til I read again and deeper. NUTS! ANOTHER @#$%
> slow NEV! We
> > need more of these like flat tires! Maybe the new Think Poke- ick ,4
> seater
> > could be tuned to the old Thinks' 60 or so top end, so ya
> could do a
> > cross town burst on the freeway? Like our conversions.
> >
> > THINK!,..... Think, the car we all know and loved, hiway
> > capabable, don't let it die!! Gussy it up with newer batteries, we
> > know it works as a concept, don't hafta re-invent the EV!4
> seater, so
> > you can haul the kids
> to
> > school, on and on. There's a whole World waiting!
I think we've properly skewered Neon John's assertions that Ford was acting
responsibly when it killed the Ranger EV. Ford acted illegally. The majors
*are* capable of doing bad things.
[Gasp of horrified shock!]
Now here's something new to ponder. The Th!nk City was a completely
developed, successful product. Ford wanted to crush the Citys. IMO, they
wanted to further eliminate evidence that EVs are, in fact, viable and even
desirable vehicles. (And yes, production was stopped while there was a list
of waiting lessees.) Responding to public pressure, they sold the whole
thing to Kamkorp instead.
Now Kamkorp, instead of restarting production of a fully developed, proven
product with an existing market, invests development dollars in a new NEV.
The City is (was) highway capable so it enjoys a much larger market, with
people waiting to buy it *now*. I assume the City's price is higher than an
NEV, so the profits from selling Citys would be greater than selling NEVs.
So they decide to trot out a new NEV instead. Does anyone else see
something wrong with this picture?
If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would suspect that there was some deal cut
between Ford and Kamkorp wherein Kamkorp promised to not produce
highway-capable EVs. Or maybe Ford sold everything *except* the
rights/tooling/documentation for the City.
Of course, such a theory would just be silly, wouldn't it?
> > > Thanks to George Clooney, for your support, actually
> stepping up
> > > to
> the
> > plate and BUYING an EV!! Bet he'll love the Tango! I would! Others
> > will follow, wait and see? Jey Leno? He's a car buff?How
> many Tangoes
> > will fit
> in
> > a Jets' cargo hold?Or you could get in a stripped out, used,
> Concorde<g>?Or
> > empty supply planes coming back from Iraq??
I suggested long ago that Rick try at least selling overseas. Off shore
production is also worth pursuing. Rick has made phenomenal progress in
making the Tango a reality, but federal certification continues to stop him.
If this approach gets him the sales he needs to finance certification, we
all win.
What I fear though, is that the majors will see the Tango as a threat. They
would be correct. Corvette acceleration, slot car handling, unsurpassed
traffic-slicing capability. An absolute E-ticket kick in the pants. All
from an EV?!?!? Can the majors allow such a blasphemy to occur???
The majors have done bad things in the past. Rick is a tiny fish in a Very
Big pond, but he just might irritate the big guys in a very big way.
They've all been yammering loud and long about how EVs are dead, not worth
considering, and FCEVs are the future. They *cannot*afford* the existence
of a practical, fun and popular EV built by someone who will actually
promote it.
Rick's resilience and determination on this quest amazes me. I sincerely
hope he doesn't get hurt.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark:
Right on! This was a great big loophole that folks in Arizona jumped
through.
/Bob
On Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 08:29 AM, Mark Farver wrote:
Neon John wrote:
To put this in perspective, consider this government document on
alternative fuel vehicle production
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/CAFE/alternativefuels/
availability1.htm
Just for Ford's dual fuel Ranger,
Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 97,100 (4-speed automatic)
Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 24,700 (5-speed manual)
Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 47,300 (4-speed automatic)
Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 19,300 (5-speed manual)
Be careful of this statistic.. the auto manufacturers have been
enthusatically building dual fuel vehicles becuase a loophole in the
CAFE standards allows dual fuel vehicles to qualify as getting 2x
their fuel mileage in CAFE calculations. Thus a 22mpg Ranger that
_can_ run on ethanol counts as getting 44mpg, even if it never is
actually run on ethanol. Several manufacturers have been selling so
many SUV's with mid teens mpg that they are in danger of not meeting
the 21mpg fleet fuel economy standard for light trucks.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you already locked into a DC series motor and controller or are you
still in the planning stages? If you know that regen is going to be
desireable you may want to look into a Sepex or AC drive system instead.
From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: regen...
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2005 21:39:33 -0800 (PST)
This is sort of a question for Rich but others can
chime in. Part of my drive is going up a mountain
road, down through a valley then up the other side.
with a bit of regen I could get the range I need and
not have to ride my brakes for miles. I'm putting it
in a small light weight car. I'm looking for a simple
and cheap regen solution. I'm thinking of putting a
10k alternator in line with my ADC drive motor and a
set of contacts to engage the alternator when the
pedal is released. could I just put PFC charger on the
output of the alternator? would it control the output
well enough with the variety of voltages/frequencies
coming out of the alternator?
Gadget
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Nano-based batteries may have the potential for infinite shelf life and rapid
> power-up
> capability.
>
> http://www.ccnmag.com/news.php?id=3122
>
I didn't see the word "rechargeable" in the article.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
I suggested long ago that Rick try at least selling overseas. Off shore
production is also worth pursuing. Rick has made phenomenal progress in
making the Tango a reality, but federal certification continues to stop
him.
If this approach gets him the sales he needs to finance certification, we
all win.
What I fear though, is that the majors will see the Tango as a threat.
They
would be correct. Corvette acceleration, slot car handling, unsurpassed
traffic-slicing capability. An absolute E-ticket kick in the pants. All
from an EV?!?!? Can the majors allow such a blasphemy to occur???
The majors have done bad things in the past. Rick is a tiny fish in a Very
Big pond, but he just might irritate the big guys in a very big way.
They've all been yammering loud and long about how EVs are dead, not worth
considering, and FCEVs are the future. They *cannot*afford* the existence
of a practical, fun and popular EV built by someone who will actually
promote it.
Rick's resilience and determination on this quest amazes me. I sincerely
hope he doesn't get hurt.
Excellent point Chris.
This brings to mind the names John DeLorean and Preston Tucker.
I am wishing the best of luck to Rick and for the success of the Tango.
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John
As a person in the grips of the 4th stage of ev madness , John's post are
often a wake up slap in the face ,
> operation. No assembly line, just work clusters of technicians
> hand-assembling the car. Ya, GM called it a production vehicle but that
> was just marketing fluff.
>
I am very pro EV , and have , am building cars and trying to get them to be
driven by people . Its easy to say " people want them the car companies just
won't make them." But what I'm finding out more and more is how hard it is
to find somebody to give me $100 a month payment on one , . Jon who had been
driving one has now gone to Los Vegas to fine work The truck he had been
driving and keeping up , is now at his brothers , who is not into EV's. The
truck that went to North Carolina is sitting with a battery post melted off
, and as the cold weather cut back on the 50 miles in distance that it was
giving they can't use it and it is not being used or played for . It's
looking for a new home , . I get the " you must make them better " and
"well there not new how can you ask so much for them " . I am trying to work
with what I have , pouring allot of money into an ev that I'm only getting
100 a month payment on is just to far out there even of me but I have put
together working cars/trucks and made them useable. I need people that will
do some work for them self's or people that will pay more money , I don't
seem to find many . Where many of you talk to people about your EV's and get
all the ah ah go ev , after I talk to someone I put it to them " would you
pay 100 a month to drive one " . not many takers , I'm not upset , I know my
conversions are not the best , but they where made very low budget , . I
would like to have a down payment of at least the price of the charger . But
I'm not in that position , I have cars sitting and That's the worst than for
an EV. What I am finding is that some people just want me to convert the
car they have and do it the way they want it , Thank God for this , It makes
a lot more sense than me spending $8k of my money to have somebody pay it
back interest free for the next 80 months . So if your upset about not
being about to buy an EV please drop me an E mail with your offer , I have
the Ford Ranger in NC , that's dieing in the cold. I have the Mazda pu with
new batteries and working AC in west palm Florida , I have a Toyota Terrell
which is licensed and insured but has old batteries , in my home town Fort
Pierce . They all have PFC chargers , I would say best offer but I'll be up
for almost anything from the right person . If you want to see where people
really are next time you show off your EV , tell them you;ll sell it for
$500 to them , I am alway surprised at the number that won't even consider
this . We have a long way to go , and blaming the car makers dosen;t do it .
Getting one together and driving it dose.
oh ya I have a Honda prelude with the motor ,battery boxes and controller
in the owner wants to sell , for the price of the parts , I want 1k for my
work so far.
> The fact remains that if there IS a market for a production EV then
> someone will fill the need. Small car producers are around. Look at
> Panoz in Atlanta. They've been around for about 15 years now and make a
> fine living on about 200 cars a year. Of course, Panoz's customers pay
> the full market value for the cars without any subsidies.
>
Money is what makes things happen , if enough people would buy I think
somebody will make them , I know I would . To all the people out there who
are doing something , making cars , fixing up old one's or having somebody
build one for them , I my mind you are the one's that will make it happen ,
not the one's wineing about/to the car makes , The way to get the car
makers to make them is by there not being enough conversion to keep up with
the demamd,
now how can we make this happen?
steve clunn
some of the car can be seen at www.grassrootsev.com
> John
> ---
> John De Armond
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
--- End Message ---
