EV Digest 4039
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: regen...
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: regen...
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: regen...
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EVLN("I don't know what to believe from Ford.")
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Tango comments- was Re: EVLN(Th!nk 'Public' EV 12k, launch later
this year)
by pekka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EVLN(Matsushita pays Texaco-Chevron for ECDE Ovonic NiMH license)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EVLN(Matsushita pays Texaco-Chevron for ECD Ovonic NiMH license)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by Robert MacDowell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Selling home made EV's, was Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
i wish you lived in the UK
if i could rent an electric car to drive about in and
find someone to fix the thing , I would gladly stump
up the cash
here in the UK however the cost of building a car to a
decent standard is just prohibitive unless you have
the facilities to do your own fabrication work and
lots of free time.
many people do of course build evs here but they tend
to be "built in a shed" style vehicles because to get
quality components made up by a decent machine shop
just plain costs too much
i read about people in the states complaining about
the lack of electric vehicles on the roads - you
should all be grateful that there are any at all !
if you lived in a country where components cost 2-3
times their value
how many evs do you think would get built?
i end up getting loads of stuff shipped from the
States for my projects - at least you lot can order
things and not pay the sameagain as it's cost in
import tax, VAT and shipping (not to mention waiting
weeks for it to arrive)
rant over.
reb
--- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neon John
>
> As a person in the grips of the 4th stage of ev
> madness , John's post are
> often a wake up slap in the face ,
>
> > operation. No assembly line, just work clusters
> of technicians
> > hand-assembling the car. Ya, GM called it a
> production vehicle but that
> > was just marketing fluff.
> >
>
> I am very pro EV , and have , am building cars and
> trying to get them to be
> driven by people . Its easy to say " people want
> them the car companies just
> won't make them." But what I'm finding out more and
> more is how hard it is
> to find somebody to give me $100 a month payment on
> one , . Jon who had been
> driving one has now gone to Los Vegas to fine work
> The truck he had been
> driving and keeping up , is now at his brothers ,
> who is not into EV's. The
> truck that went to North Carolina is sitting with a
> battery post melted off
> , and as the cold weather cut back on the 50 miles
> in distance that it was
> giving they can't use it and it is not being used
> or played for . It's
> looking for a new home , . I get the " you must make
> them better " and
> "well there not new how can you ask so much for them
> " . I am trying to work
> with what I have , pouring allot of money into an ev
> that I'm only getting
> 100 a month payment on is just to far out there
> even of me but I have put
> together working cars/trucks and made them useable.
> I need people that will
> do some work for them self's or people that will pay
> more money , I don't
> seem to find many . Where many of you talk to people
> about your EV's and get
> all the ah ah go ev , after I talk to someone I put
> it to them " would you
> pay 100 a month to drive one " . not many takers ,
> I'm not upset , I know my
> conversions are not the best , but they where made
> very low budget , . I
> would like to have a down payment of at least the
> price of the charger . But
> I'm not in that position , I have cars sitting and
> That's the worst than for
> an EV. What I am finding is that some people just
> want me to convert the
> car they have and do it the way they want it , Thank
> God for this , It makes
> a lot more sense than me spending $8k of my money to
> have somebody pay it
> back interest free for the next 80 months . So if
> your upset about not
> being about to buy an EV please drop me an E mail
> with your offer , I have
> the Ford Ranger in NC , that's dieing in the cold. I
> have the Mazda pu with
> new batteries and working AC in west palm Florida ,
> I have a Toyota Terrell
> which is licensed and insured but has old batteries
> , in my home town Fort
> Pierce . They all have PFC chargers , I would say
> best offer but I'll be up
> for almost anything from the right person . If you
> want to see where people
> really are next time you show off your EV , tell
> them you;ll sell it for
> $500 to them , I am alway surprised at the number
> that won't even consider
> this . We have a long way to go , and blaming the
> car makers dosen;t do it .
> Getting one together and driving it dose.
>
>
> oh ya I have a Honda prelude with the motor ,battery
> boxes and controller
> in the owner wants to sell , for the price of the
> parts , I want 1k for my
> work so far.
>
>
> > The fact remains that if there IS a market for a
> production EV then
> > someone will fill the need. Small car producers
> are around. Look at
> > Panoz in Atlanta. They've been around for about
> 15 years now and make a
> > fine living on about 200 cars a year. Of course,
> Panoz's customers pay
> > the full market value for the cars without any
> subsidies.
> >
> Money is what makes things happen , if enough people
> would buy I think
> somebody will make them , I know I would . To all
> the people out there who
> are doing something , making cars , fixing up old
> one's or having somebody
> build one for them , I my mind you are the one's
> that will make it happen ,
> not the one's wineing about/to the car makes , The
> way to get the car
> makers to make them is by there not being enough
> conversion to keep up with
> the demamd,
> now how can we make this happen?
> steve clunn
> some of the car can be seen at www.grassrootsev.com
>
>
> > John
> > ---
> > John De Armond
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
> > Cleveland, Occupied TN
> >
>
>
=====
Regards
Richard
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 12:22 PM
Subject: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neon John
>
> As a person in the grips of the 4th stage of ev madness , John's post are
> often a wake up slap in the face ,
>
> > operation. No assembly line, just work clusters of technicians
> > hand-assembling the car. Ya, GM called it a production vehicle but that
> > was just marketing fluff.
> >
>
> I am very pro EV , and have , am building cars and trying to get them to
be
> driven by people . Its easy to say " people want them the car companies
just
> won't make them." But what I'm finding out more and more is how hard it is
> to find somebody to give me $100 a month payment on one , . Jon who had
been
> driving one has now gone to Los Vegas to fine work The truck he had been
> driving and keeping up , is now at his brothers , who is not into EV's.
The
> truck that went to North Carolina is sitting with a battery post melted
off
> , and as the cold weather cut back on the 50 miles in distance that it was
> giving they can't use it and it is not being used or played for . It's
> looking for a new home , . I get the " you must make them better " and
> "well there not new how can you ask so much for them " . I am trying to
work
> with what I have , pouring allot of money into an ev that I'm only getting
> 100 a month payment on is just to far out there even of me but I have put
> together working cars/trucks and made them useable. I need people that
will
> do some work for them self's or people that will pay more money , I don't
> seem to find many . Where many of you talk to people about your EV's and
get
> all the ah ah go ev , after I talk to someone I put it to them " would you
> pay 100 a month to drive one " . not many takers , I'm not upset , I know
my
> conversions are not the best , but they where made very low budget , . I
> would like to have a down payment of at least the price of the charger .
But
> I'm not in that position , I have cars sitting and That's the worst than
for
> an EV. What I am finding is that some people just want me to convert the
> car they have and do it the way they want it , Thank God for this , It
makes
> a lot more sense than me spending $8k of my money to have somebody pay it
> back interest free for the next 80 months . So if your upset about not
> being about to buy an EV please drop me an E mail with your offer , I have
> the Ford Ranger in NC , that's dieing in the cold. I have the Mazda pu
with
> new batteries and working AC in west palm Florida , I have a Toyota
Terrell
> which is licensed and insured but has old batteries , in my home town Fort
> Pierce . They all have PFC chargers , I would say best offer but I'll be
up
> for almost anything from the right person . If you want to see where
people
> really are next time you show off your EV , tell them you;ll sell it for
> $500 to them , I am alway surprised at the number that won't even consider
> this . We have a long way to go , and blaming the car makers dosen;t do it
.
> Getting one together and driving it dose.
>
>
> oh ya I have a Honda prelude with the motor ,battery boxes and controller
> in the owner wants to sell , for the price of the parts , I want 1k for my
> work so far.
>
>
> > The fact remains that if there IS a market for a production EV then
> > someone will fill the need. Small car producers are around. Look at
> > Panoz in Atlanta. They've been around for about 15 years now and make a
> > fine living on about 200 cars a year. Of course, Panoz's customers pay
> > the full market value for the cars without any subsidies.
> >
> Money is what makes things happen , if enough people would buy I think
> somebody will make them , I know I would . To all the people out there who
> are doing something , making cars , fixing up old one's or having somebody
> build one for them , I my mind you are the one's that will make it happen
,
> not the one's wineing about/to the car makes , The way to get the car
> makers to make them is by there not being enough conversion to keep up
with
> the demamd,
> now how can we make this happen?
> steve clunn
> some of the car can be seen at www.grassrootsev.com
> Hi Steve and All;
What a stunning inditment of the EV Biz. Or will people put their money
where their mouth is? Like to think if I could make Steve's offer up here in
CT he would get takers/....Would he? Fuel for thought as I was thinking of a
Steve like thing up here. Snowbelt Auto's/ Make ya think. As the Mark
Hastings/Seth Allan Rabbit moved fast, EVen though it needed alot or
cosmetic work, but for 500-700 bux, how could ya go wrong?Yet Steve can't
EVen get his investment back, will hafta trek up to NC to get his car back.
Now if J Wayland put the Blue Meany on the block? Bettya he'd sell it damn
Fast, If it were priced cheep? But all the detailing HOURS he spent on that,
Maybe One of the celebs might pay what it's worth, timewise? But to the
average converter, an older car, people say" $$$ bux for an OLD Whatever?"VW
Datsun, Honda? Fill in the blanks.
You hafta find the right person to sell a conversion to, somebody like
most Listers. Remember the Gal, Gail? in Las Vegas, trying to drive an EV,
an old Citycar, when it broke, which was often, she was in trouble.She
needed a upgraded cleaned up Citycar, state of the art, she'd been happy.
I like to think that a bare bones clean conversion would sell. Time will
tell, hell, haven't even started. I would hunt down clean small cars for
doners, VW's ,Hondas, that sort of thing.But you hafta think of it as a
sorta doo gooder hobby, NOT a living thing.
Just a few thoughts on a snowy afternoon.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm a bit surprised and disappointed that you don't have more people
wanting your EVs, Steve . Only $100 per month, no interest, no down
payment and
no obligation to make repairs or continue making payments if something
goes wrong seems to me to be an offer that would be tough to refuse.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
I am very pro EV , and have , am building cars and trying to get them to
be
driven by people . Its easy to say " people want them the car companies
just
won't make them." But what I'm finding out more and more is how hard it is
to find somebody to give me $100 a month payment on one , . Jon who had
been
driving one has now gone to Los Vegas to fine work The truck he had been
driving and keeping up , is now at his brothers , who is not into EV's.
The
truck that went to North Carolina is sitting with a battery post melted
off
, and as the cold weather cut back on the 50 miles in distance that it was
giving they can't use it and it is not being used or played for . It's
looking for a new home , . I get the " you must make them better " and
"well there not new how can you ask so much for them " . I am trying to
work
with what I have , pouring allot of money into an ev that I'm only getting
100 a month payment on is just to far out there even of me but I have put
together working cars/trucks and made them useable. I need people that
will
do some work for them self's or people that will pay more money , I don't
seem to find many . Where many of you talk to people about your EV's and
get
all the ah ah go ev , after I talk to someone I put it to them " would you
pay 100 a month to drive one " . not many takers , I'm not upset , I know
my
conversions are not the best , but they where made very low budget , . I
would like to have a down payment of at least the price of the charger .
But
I'm not in that position , I have cars sitting and That's the worst than
for
an EV. What I am finding is that some people just want me to convert the
car they have and do it the way they want it , Thank God for this , It
makes
a lot more sense than me spending $8k of my money to have somebody pay it
back interest free for the next 80 months . So if your upset about not
being about to buy an EV please drop me an E mail with your offer , I have
the Ford Ranger in NC , that's dieing in the cold. I have the Mazda pu
with
new batteries and working AC in west palm Florida , I have a Toyota
Terrell
which is licensed and insured but has old batteries , in my home town Fort
Pierce . They all have PFC chargers , I would say best offer but I'll be
up
for almost anything from the right person . If you want to see where
people
really are next time you show off your EV , tell them you;ll sell it for
$500 to them , I am alway surprised at the number that won't even consider
this . We have a long way to go , and blaming the car makers dosen;t do it
.
Getting one together and driving it dose.
oh ya I have a Honda prelude with the motor ,battery boxes and controller
in the owner wants to sell , for the price of the parts , I want 1k for my
work so far.
> Money is what makes things happen , if enough people would buy I think
somebody will make them , I know I would . To all the people out there who
are doing something , making cars , fixing up old one's or having somebody
build one for them , I my mind you are the one's that will make it happen
,
not the one's wineing about/to the car makes , The way to get the car
makers to make them is by there not being enough conversion to keep up
with
the demamd,
now how can we make this happen?
steve clunn
some of the car can be seen at www.grassrootsev.com
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes...
Keep in mind that you never want to see anything more than 240 VAC on
the input. This will be up to you to ensure....
For maximum power through a PFC charger, you want more than 120 , and above
180 you can get full amps.
Like the other DC input applications... disconnect the Buck enhancer sensor,
and rejumper the Buck/NO buck header J7.
The system will light up at about 60 volts, and gets really with it by 100
volts.
And... this is a NO warrentied...feature... You break it, it's time and
materials. I just want to break even on the rebuilds.
A little filtering Capacitor between the Alternator and the charger would
help eat spikes that the two devices are going to inflict on each other.
10Kw...208 to 240 is a pretty healthy alternator...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:39 PM
Subject: regen...
> This is sort of a question for Rich but others can
> chime in. Part of my drive is going up a mountain
> road, down through a valley then up the other side.
> with a bit of regen I could get the range I need and
> not have to ride my brakes for miles. I'm putting it
> in a small light weight car. I'm looking for a simple
> and cheap regen solution. I'm thinking of putting a
> 10k alternator in line with my ADC drive motor and a
> set of contacts to engage the alternator when the
> pedal is released. could I just put PFC charger on the
> output of the alternator? would it control the output
> well enough with the variety of voltages/frequencies
> coming out of the alternator?
>
> Gadget
>
> =====
> visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I recall, I now have that alternator....
HUmmmm...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: regen...
> Hi Gadget, On our two ton plus Land Rover I was smoking the brakes going
> down the 6% plus mountain grades out of Jerome, Arizona. I took a 100 amp
> Delco truck alternator and had the it rewound with much more windings and
> isolated the negative from the frame and installed a Negative external
post.
> I also put in much larger diodes. It was mounted with an electric clutch
> from an air conditioner. It was activated by a switch on the dash or the
> brake light switch which would engage the pulley and full field the
> alternator. When going down the hill it would hold the beast back while
> dumping 20 plus amps at 240 volts back into the 192 volt pack. This is
about
> 5 kw. This is a fairly inexpensive regen system for series motors which
can
> be accomplished by most back yarders. If you wanted more regen control you
> could vary the field strength. 100% politic free post :-)
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:39 PM
> Subject: regen...
>
>
> > This is sort of a question for Rich but others can
> > chime in. Part of my drive is going up a mountain
> > road, down through a valley then up the other side.
> > with a bit of regen I could get the range I need and
> > not have to ride my brakes for miles. I'm putting it
> > in a small light weight car. I'm looking for a simple
> > and cheap regen solution. I'm thinking of putting a
> > 10k alternator in line with my ADC drive motor and a
> > set of contacts to engage the alternator when the
> > pedal is released. could I just put PFC charger on the
> > output of the alternator? would it control the output
> > well enough with the variety of voltages/frequencies
> > coming out of the alternator?
> >
> > Gadget
> >
> > =====
> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.0 - Release Date: 1/17/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am assuming that they are going to stuff DC into the charger.
So.... that alternator and rectifier need to stay below 240 AC and 400
DC... This makes for a much larger usefull window.
But, having some voltage regulation to keep the output from jumping up at no
load... is a wise idea.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: regen...
> What is the frequency of the alternator? How fast will you be spinning it?
>
> The doubt that the PFC works correctly at 400 Hz. It has never been tested
> over 60 Hz.
>
> If the alternator is three phase, you can rectify all three phases and put
> the DC rail into the charger.
>
> Make sure the DC rail never goes over 400 VDC or the logic power supply
goes
> bang.
>
> An aircraft generator might work better since they put out DC and work up
to
> 8000 RPM. By adjusting the field, you can get almost any output voltage
you
> want.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2005 9:39 PM
> Subject: regen...
>
>
> > This is sort of a question for Rich but others can
> > chime in. Part of my drive is going up a mountain
> > road, down through a valley then up the other side.
> > with a bit of regen I could get the range I need and
> > not have to ride my brakes for miles. I'm putting it
> > in a small light weight car. I'm looking for a simple
> > and cheap regen solution. I'm thinking of putting a
> > 10k alternator in line with my ADC drive motor and a
> > set of contacts to engage the alternator when the
> > pedal is released. could I just put PFC charger on the
> > output of the alternator? would it control the output
> > well enough with the variety of voltages/frequencies
> > coming out of the alternator?
> >
> > Gadget
> >
> > =====
> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN("I don't know what to believe from Ford.")
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
1234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-electric19jan19,1,1229168.story?coll=la-headlines-california&ctrack=1&cset=true
January 19, 2005 REGION & STATE
Ford Shifts Gears on Its Plan to Scrap Electric Pickup Trucks
By Eric Bailey, Times Staff Writer
SACRAMENTO — Buffeted by criticism from environmentalists, Ford
Motor
Co. officials said Tuesday that the automaker is reconsidering a
decision to scrap its last few electric Ranger pickups — and that
it
erred a day earlier in saying its hand was being forced by a
federal
agency.
A company official said the Detroit auto giant expects a decision
as
early as today on the fate of the few dozen remaining Ranger
pickups,
part of an ambitious experiment launched with fanfare in the late
1990s
but halted as the company shifted to hybrids and other alternative
technologies.
"This is a very fluid situation," said Niel Golightly, Ford's
director
of sustainable business strategies. "We are taking one last look at
what we're able to do. I wish every single one of our products
generated as much customer passion."
The decision to order the return of the dozens of leased electric
pickups spawned an ongoing protest in Sacramento, where a few
Ranger
owners launched a curbside vigil in front of a downtown Ford
dealership in a last-ditch attempt to save their beloved vehicles.
"This gives us some hope," said Dave Raboy, a Mariposa County
rancher
who wants to buy the electric Ranger instead of seeing it sent to
the
scrap yard. "I'd like them to restart their EV [electric vehicle]
program, but this would definitely be a step in the right
direction."
The protest attracted statewide media attention last weekend.
A Ford spokeswoman told The Times in a story published Tuesday that
the company's decision to demand the return of all remaining
electric
pickup trucks came because the federal government didn't renew a
waiver needed to keep the Rangers on the road.
But on Tuesday, electric vehicle foes raised an outcry over the
statement, saying the electric Ranger trucks were never subject to
a
federal highway safety waiver.
Ford officials quickly conceded the statement was wrong, saying it
had been an honest error stemming from confusion with another
electric vehicle Ford once leased. That vehicle, the
golf-cart-shaped
TH!NK, had indeed required a waiver of federal highway rules.
Electric vehicle advocates were less than willing to concede that
the
Ford spokeswoman may have been confused. Websites for electric
vehicle
aficionados railed against Ford, and the Rainforest Action Network,
which joined Raboy in the ongoing Sacramento protest, drafted a
news
release accusing the company of misleading the public.
Raboy, meanwhile, was left scratching his head.
Noting that the company had initially promised to sell him the
vehicle,
then reversed course and demanded it back, Raboy said, "At this
point,
I don't know what to believe from Ford."
But, he added, "If they're willing to take a new look at our
situation,
it certainly makes me hopeful."
Copyright 2005 Los Angeles Times
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
Roy LeMeur wrote:
This brings to mind the names John DeLorean and Preston Tucker.
What if Spielberg did a movie about Tango, like now, and not after it's
history?
I wonder whether it would make a difference though, half of humanity is
below average - and, what do you think, is the average? Not much, I'm
afraid.
But making it public and symphatetic would sell, if at the same time, it
were available and affordable. Facts, information and rationale is not
what makes the world go 'round.
Neon John has made good points, even if a bit provocative. But I am
beginning to think that selling full EV's is by no means easy.
Other electric vehiles like boats offer 500 performance at 5000 price,
from the point of view of most. Electric has to have other strong points
in it's favor, like if a diesel generator is needed for hotel power in
any case. But these systems don't sell like hot cakes, because they are
not hot cakes.
///
In Finland, there are used "series conversion" EV's (japanese minivans)
for sale with low mileage, just saw them yesterday. I am trying to find
a way to tell my wife we need a new car to replace her decaying Pontiac
Parisienne.
How can I convince her? Facts are not enough. Maybe I should get her a
minivan to drive it for a week. If it would be possible to lease it
before buying... I have to call them tomorrow.
Pekka, sorry if anyone thinks OT again...
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--- Begin Message ---
You also could be seeing what all salespeople see. Most of the time
people will say "no" when you offer to sell them something, no matter
how good the deal might be, even if they are excited about the
product's technology.
EV car companies that are still alive (to my knowledge), that offer
freeway-capable vehicles you can drive away: Solectria, AC
Propulsion, and Tango (well, hopefully soon). None of these are
particularly cheap as cars go. Just pure unscientific speculation
here: Maybe it works better, business wise, to go for the high end
for drive-away cars, and sell parts and kits to the low end.
What has surprised me is that kit car companies (to my knowledge)
don't sell electric versions of their cars. Imagine a Factory Five
Cobra (~1300 lb glider) with 28 orbitals and a zilla controller.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
> I am very pro EV , and have , am building cars and trying to get
them to
> be
> driven by people . Its easy to say " people want them the car
companies
> just
> won't make them." But what I'm finding out more and more is how
hard it is
> to find somebody to give me $100 a month payment on one , . Jon who
had
> been
> driving one has now gone to Los Vegas to fine work The truck he
had been
> driving and keeping up , is now at his brothers , who is not into
EV's.
> The
> truck that went to North Carolina is sitting with a battery post
melted
> off
> , and as the cold weather cut back on the 50 miles in distance that
it was
> giving they can't use it and it is not being used or played for .
It's
> looking for a new home , . I get the " you must make them better "
and
> "well there not new how can you ask so much for them " . I am
trying to
> work
> with what I have , pouring allot of money into an ev that I'm only
getting
> 100 a month payment on is just to far out there even of me but I
have put
> together working cars/trucks and made them useable. I need people
that
> will
> do some work for them self's or people that will pay more money , I
don't
> seem to find many . Where many of you talk to people about your
EV's and
> get
> all the ah ah go ev , after I talk to someone I put it to them "
would you
> pay 100 a month to drive one " . not many takers , I'm not upset ,
I know
> my
> conversions are not the best , but they where made very low budget
, . I
> would like to have a down payment of at least the price of the
charger .
> But
> I'm not in that position , I have cars sitting and That's the worst
than
> for
> an EV. What I am finding is that some people just want me to
convert the
> car they have and do it the way they want it , Thank God for this ,
It
> makes
> a lot more sense than me spending $8k of my money to have somebody
pay it
> back interest free for the next 80 months . So if your upset about
not
> being about to buy an EV please drop me an E mail with your offer ,
I have
> the Ford Ranger in NC , that's dieing in the cold. I have the Mazda
pu
> with
> new batteries and working AC in west palm Florida , I have a
Toyota
> Terrell
> which is licensed and insured but has old batteries , in my home
town Fort
> Pierce . They all have PFC chargers , I would say best offer but
I'll be
> up
> for almost anything from the right person . If you want to see
where
> people
> really are next time you show off your EV , tell them you;ll sell
it for
> $500 to them , I am alway surprised at the number that won't even
consider
> this . We have a long way to go , and blaming the car makers
dosen;t do it
> .
> Getting one together and driving it dose.
>
>
> oh ya I have a Honda prelude with the motor ,battery boxes and
controller
> in the owner wants to sell , for the price of the parts , I want 1k
for my
> work so far.
>
> > Money is what makes things happen , if enough people would buy I
think
> somebody will make them , I know I would . To all the people out
there who
> are doing something , making cars , fixing up old one's or having
somebody
> build one for them , I my mind you are the one's that will make it
happen
> ,
> not the one's wineing about/to the car makes , The way to get the
car
> makers to make them is by there not being enough conversion to keep
up
> with
> the demamd,
> now how can we make this happen?
> steve clunn
> some of the car can be seen at www.grassrootsev.com
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Matsushita pays Texaco-Chevron for ECDE Ovonic NiMH license)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.dexigner.com/product/news-g3689.html
Hybrid Vehicle Battery : Panasonic's Power Play
A few months back, in the course of looking at which companies
stand
to profit from the new wave of hybrid vehicles being offered by
automakers such as Toyota, Honda, and Ford, we came across one
battery maker in particular who, while it may not seem familiar,
actually is a household name.
The company, Matsushita Electric -- better known by the name of its
premier brand, Panasonic -- licenses nickel metal hydride
technology
from an American company, Energy Conversion Devices, and uses it to
make the batteries used in the automakers' buggies.
That's Panasonic's cutting-edge business. The company is also a
leading maker of rechargeable batteries of a size better suited to
fit inside a boom box or digital camera.
So Panasonic holds leading positions in two battery markets
already.
And according to a recent Wall Street Journal article, Panasonic is
now going for the triple crown -- aiming to build a better
disposable battery and capture market share there as well.
Right now, the market for everyday disposable batteries is
dominated by the Big Two: Energizer and Gillette's Duracell.
Between them, these power pals control roughly 80% of the U.S.
disposable battery market. As of now, Panasonic's share barely
registers in comparison to those two titans.
But that might be about to change. Panasonic has found a way to
cram
Source: www.fool.com... (4) ©2000-2005 | Dexigner Design Portal
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:29:43 -0600, Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Neon John wrote:
>
>>To put this in perspective, consider this government document on
>>alternative fuel vehicle production
>>
>>http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/CAFE/alternativefuels/availability1.htm
>>
>>Just for Ford's dual fuel Ranger,
>>
>>Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 97,100 (4-speed automatic)
>>Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 24,700 (5-speed manual)
>>Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 47,300 (4-speed automatic)
>>Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 19,300 (5-speed manual)
>>
>>
>Be careful of this statistic.. the auto manufacturers have been
>enthusatically building dual fuel vehicles becuase a loophole in the
>CAFE standards allows dual fuel vehicles to qualify as getting 2x their
>fuel mileage in CAFE calculations. Thus a 22mpg Ranger that _can_ run
>on ethanol counts as getting 44mpg, even if it never is actually run on
>ethanol. Several manufacturers have been selling so many SUV's with mid
>teens mpg that they are in danger of not meeting the 21mpg fleet fuel
>economy standard for light trucks.
*sigh* This is like trying to discuss physics with kindergartners.
<capt'n obvious mode>
I cited those numbers to contrast the production numbers of that kind of
niche vehicle with the infinitesimal hand-assembly volume of EV production
and not to go off on Yet Another Ill-informed Tangent. Presumably Ford or
GM makes that many flexi-fuel vehicles because there is a market for them.
Presumably they're not just stacking 'em up in big piles somewhere out
near Area 51.
</capt'n obvious mode>
Now arises a different musing. Assuming for the moment your claim about
the motivation of the evil auto industry for making flexi-fuel vehicles is
correct, it is interesting that you'd call that a "loophole". Should not
an outside observer conclude that these are no different in concept or
effect than the various exceptions, subsides, tax credits, special
privileges and promotions that much of the EV world eagerly laps up?
Perhaps one should conclude that the difference between a "loophole" and a
"noble action for the good of mankind" lies only in whether it benefits
ones' friends or enemies.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Matsushita pays Texaco-Chevron for ECD Ovonic NiMH license)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.dexigner.com/product/news-g3689.html
Hybrid Vehicle Battery : Panasonic's Power Play
A few months back, in the course of looking at which companies
stand
to profit from the new wave of hybrid vehicles being offered by
automakers such as Toyota, Honda, and Ford, we came across one
battery maker in particular who, while it may not seem familiar,
actually is a household name.
The company, Matsushita Electric -- better known by the name of its
premier brand, Panasonic -- licenses nickel metal hydride
technology
from an American company, Energy Conversion Devices, and uses it to
make the batteries used in the automakers' buggies.
That's Panasonic's cutting-edge business. The company is also a
leading maker of rechargeable batteries of a size better suited to
fit inside a boom box or digital camera.
So Panasonic holds leading positions in two battery markets
already.
And according to a recent Wall Street Journal article, Panasonic is
now going for the triple crown -- aiming to build a better
disposable battery and capture market share there as well.
Right now, the market for everyday disposable batteries is
dominated by the Big Two: Energizer and Gillette's Duracell.
Between them, these power pals control roughly 80% of the U.S.
disposable battery market. As of now, Panasonic's share barely
registers in comparison to those two titans.
But that might be about to change. Panasonic has found a way to
cram
Source: www.fool.com... (4) ©2000-2005 | Dexigner Design Portal
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 10:29:43 -0600, Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Neon John wrote:
Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 97,100 (4-speed automatic)
Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 24,700 (5-speed manual)
Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 47,300 (4-speed automatic)
Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 19,300 (5-speed manual)
Be careful of this statistic.. the auto manufacturers have been
enthusatically building dual fuel vehicles becuase a loophole in the
CAFE standards....
<capt'n obvious mode>
I cited those numbers to contrast the production numbers of that kind of
niche vehicle with the infinitesimal hand-assembly volume of EV production
and not to go off on Yet Another Ill-informed Tangent. Presumably Ford or
GM makes that many flexi-fuel vehicles because there is a market for them.
You underestimate the automakers' skill at market-making.
It doesn't matter whether the market *wants* FFVs. The government
incented their sale, and automakers are very, very masterful at
pushing upon the marketplace whatever they need to push upon them.
They do it via pricing -- the "offer you can't refuse".
You especially "can't refuse" if you're a fleet.
If the government had properly incented battery EVs, fleets would
have bought them up as eagerly as they bought FFVs, because the
automakers would have priced their vehicle needs accordingly.
> Presumably they're not just stacking 'em up in big piles somewhere out
> near Area 51.
They're being driven around on gasoline. They'll never see another
fuel unless there's a big middle-east war or something. But they
followed a Federal mandate that didn't give us *quite* nothing --
having those vehicles out there in government or fleet service is
a hedge against an energy crisis.
Robert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve and All,
What you do is good but your way of doing it
flawed.
People don't want, except for techies like
us, used EV's, they want a new one from a company ,
preferably a big auto company with a warranty to have
enough confindence to buy one.
Notice that all made, sold, leased this way
have been snapped up quickly.
Your second market, converting other's cars
to EV's with money up front, at least 1/2 is the way
to go and full payment when finished before it leaves
your yard. If they don't finish paying, they don't get
their money back until you sell it to someone else.
Business is hard and you must be too.
Never build on spec and if you do, use less
expensive chargers, controllers to keep costs down and
upgrade them after the sale if they want. Also do
lighter EV's so the costs are less.
If you sell them at $100mo, people will not
take you or the EV's seriously as you have found out,
they think you are desperate.
I'd put them on Ebay with a minuim bid or the
EV for sales lists and not sell them until someone
puts their money down in full. Anything else, you are
going to get burned. Also never do more than 1 spec at
a time if you must do spec building.
I've been selling weird stuff, boats, ect for
yrs and found these principals nessasary to survive
doing things this way. Mostly I build for myself if on
spec so if it doesn't sell quickly, no big deal.
HTH's
jerry dycus
--- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neon John
>
> As a person in the grips of the 4th stage of ev
> madness , John's post are
> often a wake up slap in the face ,
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
*sigh* This is like trying to discuss physics with kindergartners.
<capt'n obvious mode>
I cited those numbers to contrast the production numbers of that kind of
niche vehicle with the infinitesimal hand-assembly volume of EV production
and not to go off on Yet Another Ill-informed Tangent. Presumably Ford or
GM makes that many flexi-fuel vehicles because there is a market for them.
Presumably they're not just stacking 'em up in big piles somewhere out
near Area 51.
This is getting a little off topic, but the crux of my argument is that
GM, Ford and Chrysler do not make these vehicles because there is a
market for flex fuel, but because political choices have made it wise
for them to do so. The production cost of building flex fuel vehicles
(according to Ford) is about $200 per truck.. the cost of a sensor added
to the fuel system to detect which fuel is in use, and a different
overlay for the engine management system. No new production lines.. no
significant effort to retool an assembly line.
John Q. Public didn't walk into a Ford dealership and demand a Ranger
that runs on ethanol.. they bought just bought a Ranger. Most of the
people driving the 6 million flex fuel vehicles on the road today have
no idea they can be run on ethanol .. which is fine since there are less
than 100 fuel stations in the country that sell it (E85).
If there was a public demand for flex fuel vehicles we should see flex
fuel cars in the same proportion to vehicle sales, but we don't. You
would expect the import manufacturers to also be building dual fuel
cars. but they don't (most Japanese manufacturers are well above the
CAFE minimums, and the European manufacturers have been paying CAFE
fines on and off for years) Failing to meet CAFE fuel economy standards
means millions of dollars in fines and open a US manufacturer up to
stockholder suits, so $200 a vehicle is cheap insurance.
Politics matter. What if the federal government rewrote the legislation
to state that every EV sold counts as getting 100mpg for CAFE standards?
(like CARB wanted, but was unable to implement) This is not
unreasonable, EV's are close to twice as efficient fuel to road as
internal combustion.
Now there is a financial incentive. Once again our fictional customer
walks into the dealership and asks for a Ranger, but this time he's
given the choice between a all electric, or a fossil fuel burning Ranger
(similar to his choice of the less expensive fuel efficient 2.0 L 4
cylinder, or the powerful 3.0L V6). Ford has discounted the EV Ranger,
trying to gain its significant fuel credit so Ford can sell a few more
of the very profitable 12mpg Expeditions without running afoul of CAFE.
The customers weighs the benefits and buys the EV.. its cheaper to buy,
cheaper to operate and has a range sufficient for his needs. Over time
as volume increase Ford finds way to decrease the production costs of
EV.. maybe comes out with a few new models, the customers ask for better
batteries, and with a few thousand vehicles on the road Ford can promise
a market to some young Lithium Ion company. Better batteries causes
more people to make the EV choice... etc. Companies are good at that
kind of slow improvement.
Legislating a course of action rarely works in this country... better to
build a regulatory framework that allows companies and individuals some
freedom in adhering to the law. You might have to tweak the law as time
goes on, as loopholes that violate the spirit of the law are found, or
as technology makes portions of the policy invalid.
Your argument about volume is completely correct, but can be reversed..
GM claims that there was no market for the EV1 at $64,000 per vehicle
(GM's stated build cost for the EV1, experts peg it closer to $46,000)
. Probably true, but as you stated the volume of cars GM built was not
enough to even tune a production line... if GM had built 10000 or 50000
vehicles how much less per vehicle? What would the market have been for
a $20,000 EV1? Nobody will ever know... GM doesn't release that info,
didn't do market research outside of a few narrow areas or any kind of
customer education.
</capt'n obvious mode>
Now arises a different musing. Assuming for the moment your claim about
the motivation of the evil auto industry for making flexi-fuel vehicles is
correct, it is interesting that you'd call that a "loophole". Should not
I tend to define a loophole as any use of the law that violates the
spirit but not the letter of the law. Obviously this is a gray area. In
this case the giving double mileage credit was written in by the corn
lobby to encourage manufacturers to build more E85 (ethanol) vehicles,
thereby increasing demand for cleaner burning ethanol and making money
for corn growers. (Whether this was a "good" thing is subject to
debate) The problem was that the law never specified that the vehicle
actually had to run on E85, only that it be equipped to do so (and how
could it, enforcing such a requirement would be nearly impossible for
the manufacturer). So Ford builds E85 equipped Rangers that the public
puts gasoline into and average fuel economy in the country goes down.
Individuals found a loophole in Arizona's $6,000 EV credit... buying a
$6000-7000 NEV could get you the full credit. The state basically gave
away free cars. The funding account was empty in a matter of months.
Now you could argue this was a success, after all it did get a lot of
EVs into the public's hands. Unfortunately it was more a failure, since
most of the people who used the incentive really just wanted a free golf
cart, and had no intention of using the NEV as a daily driver.
Incentives are just that.. Incentives to get the public or manufacturers
to do things that are good for everyone but not necessarily good for the
individual or company. Sometimes they work, often they don't...
--- End Message ---
