EV Digest 4048
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: New 2005 German e-Max
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: New 2005 German e-Max
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) battery cycler
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: New 2005 German e-Max
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: regen...
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by "adam1tx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: people willing to buy EV's
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Color me dubious, was Re: New 2005 German e-Max
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: regen...
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: battery cycler
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Problem with list serve ([email protected])
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Color me dubious, was Re: New 2005 German e-Max
by Stefano Landi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: battery cycler
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: battery cycler
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Color me dubious
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: battery cycler
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Found this article- If the same thing as listed it is a Lithium Ion battery
with Silicon added to the Graphite anode.
http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801,79150,00.html
http://www.seiko-instruments.de/products/micro/cont_p6_01_04.html
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:http://www.texaserider.com/escooters_emax.php This thing uses Silicon
Batteries with double the range of lead. Anybody know of this technology?
Thanks
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.guineng.com/index0.htm
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Bruce Weisenberger
> Sent: January 22, 2005 2:53 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: New 2005 German e-Max
>
>
> Found this article- If the same thing as listed it is a Lithium
> Ion battery with Silicon added to the Graphite anode.
> http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801
> ,79150,00.html
> http://www.seiko-instruments.de/products/micro/cont_p6_01_04.html
> Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:http://www.texaserider.com/escooters_emax.php This thing
> uses Silicon
> Batteries with double the range of lead. Anybody know of this technology?
> Thanks
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi a.k.
I have been commuting around Las Vegas by bike (regular and electric) for
many years so can speak with experience regarding your electric bicycle
comments. I have used a ZAP, Th!nk and E-Bike. Since you do not want to
pedal, you would not want the Th!nk, and Ford is no longer making it
anyway. However, you might find that pedaling an electric assist bike is
not bad. Even going uphill and into headwinds, which I encounter a lot
in Las Vegas, is easy. My E-bike does not require pedaling, is 36 Volts,
and I think would go 10 miles between charges. I don't know how far I go
as I couldn't figure out how to install the speedometer/odometer gadget I
bought for it. A nice feature of the E-Bike is the on-board charger,
built into the battery so you don't even see it. There is a little
compartment for the cord so when I use that bike I can easily charge it in
my office. The ZAP and Th!nk chargers are separate units that you would
have to carry, or keep an extra one where you want to charge. The E-Bike
has a good headlight, but it pulls a lot of power so reduces your range at
night. It also has a bright taillight and brake lights, is definitely the
best of the electrics I have used. It is very heavy though. If I get a
bit off balance while getting on or off, it falls over as I am not strong
enough to hold it up. Once when this happened the switch that you use to
make it go broke off, so the whole unit that connects the switch to the
rest of the bike had to be replaced.
I don't think any of my electric bikes go 20 mph. Even if I pedal I can't
go as fast as people who pass me on regular bikes. Probably 15 mph is
closer to my top speed, but I don't care whether I go fast, just want the
convenience of not having to pedal as hard, or to get off and push the
bike against major winds, which I have to do without the electric assist.
John Bryan has done a lot of riding on a ZAP and perhaps would have some
data he would share on speed and distance using that bike.
You mention carrying a second battery pack. Check on the weight before
you plan to do that. The bikes are already heavy and if you carry an
extra battery you will use up your rack space, or basket if you have one,
and the bike will be even more difficult to drag around. I would not want
something that heavy to add to the weight that falls on me when I tip
over, or to add to the load on the battery in use. The chargers are
lighter so I would carry one of those if I needed more range. One would
fit in a backpack but I wouldn't try carrying a battery in there.
I can't imagine hauling an electric bike up or down stairs. I think it
would be difficult and dangerous. If it slipped it could knock you down
and land on top of you at the bottom. Do you have somewhere on ground
level, like a storage room, where you could keep the bike and just carry
the battery inside for charging? That would still be a nuisance but
probably less of one than a stair climb.
If you think of any way I could help you with your project, drop me a
note. I do not work on stuff but I know where some dealers are. Sharper
Image had a rather nice electric bike when I was there a few months ago,
but without the features I like on my E-Bike.
Gail
P.S. cowtown, no I am not a member of the LVEVA but I drive only electric
cars.
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005, a.k. howard wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> The question here is to buy or to build. I am looking to use an
> electric bicycle type of EV for the following.
>
> I have a nine mile one way commute. Its mostly flat or very slight
> long grades, with a 3 percent half mile upgrade at one end.
> Speed is not real important, I think i will be happy with a maximum
> speed of 20 mph.
> Range is very important. I want to be able to do nine to ten miles
> comfortably on a single charge. I am willing to carry a second
> battery pack.
> I don't plan to pedal my bike, I'd rather use the electric power
> mode at all times.
> I do want the ability to climb steep grades, say up to 8 percent
> without burning things up, i am willing to accept a reduction in
> speed for that.
> I plan to use the bike 250 to 300 days a year, pretty much whenever
> it is dry and the forecast is to be dry. Most of my one way trips
> outside of work are less than ten miles in length.
>
> If I buy, I am most interested in one of the Tidalforce bikes,
> probably the IO stepthru model. I have considered an Iacocca folding
> ebike as well.
>
> If I build, Im probably looking at installing a hub motor setup on
> a mountain bike with road tires.
>
> 36 volts is the lowest voltage I would use. I plan to use nimh
> batteries, maybe liions in the future. I'm willing to have multiple
> battery packs and chargers.
> I live in a second story apartment. Hopefully with a little power I
> could power the bike slowly up the stairs. That is, to walk it up the
> stairs with some power to the wheels. Of course I wouldn't attempt to
> ride it upstairs.
> I consider my planned use for the bike to be severe service,
> multiple stoplights, roads are pretty smooth, and using it day in and
> day out. I have no plans to use the bike off road. I hope i can find
> something that will hold up over time and give me years of trouble
> free service.
> I do realize that battery packs and tires will have to be replaced
> every so often. I hope that the bike itself, motor, controller, etc
> would not fail on me quickly. In short I am looking for something
> quite durable.
>
> This will be my first EV.
> Hope this helps, and I thank you in advance for your wisdom and
> your help. Regards, A.K. Howard, Las Vegas, NV. Board member Las
> Vegas Electric Vehicle Association.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know where to find a battery cycler for bench testing batteries,
who makes and sells them, any web links?
(As I recall from an exchange between Victor and Philippe a few weeks ago
where Philippe was lamenting the dearth of published cycling data results on
Thunder-Sky li-ions, I think Victor mentioned that such test equipment is
quite expensive; I think he said something like $5k. Are they really that
much?)
Thanks for any info,
Charles Whalen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for link- Inguiring about them presently.
However being the only vendor I suspect they are
either
1) very expensive
2) not importable by private individuals only OEM's
Also their product page is not very linear on weight.
One batttery was 2V 100Ahr- 33.5kg. Next battery was
2V 200 Ahr- 14 kg. May have been a site typo. We will
see. Requested info for the 12V 50 Ahr.
--- Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.guineng.com/index0.htm
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Bruce Weisenberger
> > Sent: January 22, 2005 2:53 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: New 2005 German e-Max
> >
> >
> > Found this article- If the same thing as listed it
> is a Lithium
> > Ion battery with Silicon added to the Graphite
> anode.
> >
>
http://www.computerworld.com/hardwaretopics/hardware/story/0,10801
> > ,79150,00.html
> >
>
http://www.seiko-instruments.de/products/micro/cont_p6_01_04.html
> > Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> wrote:http://www.texaserider.com/escooters_emax.php
> This thing
> > uses Silicon
> > Batteries with double the range of lead. Anybody
> know of this technology?
> > Thanks
> > Lawrence Rhodes
> > Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> > Reedmaker
> > Book 4/5 doubler
> > Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 415-821-3519
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn
> more.
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
not according to my customers...But you must remember this is a
forklift not a car and regen currents can be substantial.
Mike G.
Rich Rudman wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: regen...
M.G. wrote:
In my information it is regen the panel is an ev-100 and plug braking
was always there and regen was an option.
I dont think much energy went back to the battery but brush life
increased by three times.
I've never heard of regen *increasing* brush life. It usually decreases
brush life, because they now carry current more of the time, and the
motor timing has to be a compromise between motoring and generating
action.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Or have interpoles, or no brushes at all. Then regen doesn't matter.
Regen without much current means you are KILLING your brushes... I bet your
brush life dropped by a third.
Friction brake life goes up... rather dramaticly.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A. K.
Have you ever heard of a Pukka ?
It is an electric mini-bike that has a top speed around 20 miles an hour and
a range of up to 22 miles.
It is a 24 volt system with a 400w motor and two 20 ah dry cell batteries
and weighs in at only 80 pounds.
This little bike flies. I have 2 and they are a blast!
Check out this site for more info. www.pukkasouth.com
ABK
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 5:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
Hi a.k.
I have been commuting around Las Vegas by bike (regular and electric) for
many years so can speak with experience regarding your electric bicycle
comments. I have used a ZAP, Th!nk and E-Bike. Since you do not want to
pedal, you would not want the Th!nk, and Ford is no longer making it
anyway. However, you might find that pedaling an electric assist bike is
not bad. Even going uphill and into headwinds, which I encounter a lot
in Las Vegas, is easy. My E-bike does not require pedaling, is 36 Volts,
and I think would go 10 miles between charges. I don't know how far I go
as I couldn't figure out how to install the speedometer/odometer gadget I
bought for it. A nice feature of the E-Bike is the on-board charger,
built into the battery so you don't even see it. There is a little
compartment for the cord so when I use that bike I can easily charge it in
my office. The ZAP and Th!nk chargers are separate units that you would
have to carry, or keep an extra one where you want to charge. The E-Bike
has a good headlight, but it pulls a lot of power so reduces your range at
night. It also has a bright taillight and brake lights, is definitely the
best of the electrics I have used. It is very heavy though. If I get a
bit off balance while getting on or off, it falls over as I am not strong
enough to hold it up. Once when this happened the switch that you use to
make it go broke off, so the whole unit that connects the switch to the
rest of the bike had to be replaced.
I don't think any of my electric bikes go 20 mph. Even if I pedal I can't
go as fast as people who pass me on regular bikes. Probably 15 mph is
closer to my top speed, but I don't care whether I go fast, just want the
convenience of not having to pedal as hard, or to get off and push the
bike against major winds, which I have to do without the electric assist.
John Bryan has done a lot of riding on a ZAP and perhaps would have some
data he would share on speed and distance using that bike.
You mention carrying a second battery pack. Check on the weight before
you plan to do that. The bikes are already heavy and if you carry an
extra battery you will use up your rack space, or basket if you have one,
and the bike will be even more difficult to drag around. I would not want
something that heavy to add to the weight that falls on me when I tip
over, or to add to the load on the battery in use. The chargers are
lighter so I would carry one of those if I needed more range. One would
fit in a backpack but I wouldn't try carrying a battery in there.
I can't imagine hauling an electric bike up or down stairs. I think it
would be difficult and dangerous. If it slipped it could knock you down
and land on top of you at the bottom. Do you have somewhere on ground
level, like a storage room, where you could keep the bike and just carry
the battery inside for charging? That would still be a nuisance but
probably less of one than a stair climb.
If you think of any way I could help you with your project, drop me a
note. I do not work on stuff but I know where some dealers are. Sharper
Image had a rather nice electric bike when I was there a few months ago,
but without the features I like on my E-Bike.
Gail
P.S. cowtown, no I am not a member of the LVEVA but I drive only electric
cars.
On Sun, 16 Jan 2005, a.k. howard wrote:
> Greetings,
>
> The question here is to buy or to build. I am looking to use an
> electric bicycle type of EV for the following.
>
> I have a nine mile one way commute. Its mostly flat or very slight
> long grades, with a 3 percent half mile upgrade at one end.
> Speed is not real important, I think i will be happy with a maximum
> speed of 20 mph.
> Range is very important. I want to be able to do nine to ten miles
> comfortably on a single charge. I am willing to carry a second
> battery pack.
> I don't plan to pedal my bike, I'd rather use the electric power
> mode at all times.
> I do want the ability to climb steep grades, say up to 8 percent
> without burning things up, i am willing to accept a reduction in
> speed for that.
> I plan to use the bike 250 to 300 days a year, pretty much whenever
> it is dry and the forecast is to be dry. Most of my one way trips
> outside of work are less than ten miles in length.
>
> If I buy, I am most interested in one of the Tidalforce bikes,
> probably the IO stepthru model. I have considered an Iacocca folding
> ebike as well.
>
> If I build, Im probably looking at installing a hub motor setup on
> a mountain bike with road tires.
>
> 36 volts is the lowest voltage I would use. I plan to use nimh
> batteries, maybe liions in the future. I'm willing to have multiple
> battery packs and chargers.
> I live in a second story apartment. Hopefully with a little power I
> could power the bike slowly up the stairs. That is, to walk it up the
> stairs with some power to the wheels. Of course I wouldn't attempt to
> ride it upstairs.
> I consider my planned use for the bike to be severe service,
> multiple stoplights, roads are pretty smooth, and using it day in and
> day out. I have no plans to use the bike off road. I hope i can find
> something that will hold up over time and give me years of trouble
> free service.
> I do realize that battery packs and tires will have to be replaced
> every so often. I hope that the bike itself, motor, controller, etc
> would not fail on me quickly. In short I am looking for something
> quite durable.
>
> This will be my first EV.
> Hope this helps, and I thank you in advance for your wisdom and
> your help. Regards, A.K. Howard, Las Vegas, NV. Board member Las
> Vegas Electric Vehicle Association.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> But we need some sort of "magic spark" to leap out of the screen
>> and zap the reader into turning off the computer and going out
>> into the garage to actually BUILD something!
Dee Dreslough wrote:
> Free beer (coffee, soda) and pizza? It has been my experience that when
> you get people together to work on something, they get stuff done
> *before* the meeting to impress the other folks coming to the meet.
Yes! I remember going to the RAMS (Rochester Area Microcomputer Society)
meetings in the 1970s. Everyone would bring their computer, or circuit
board, or program listing to demonstrate. Many times, the entire meeting
was taken up by the pre-meeting setups; people hooking up their system,
running them through their paces, fixing or patching things to work,
etc. Everyone was watching, help, kibitzing, and in general actively
participating and learning. One guy would show off a neat program he
wrote, and by the end of the meeting three other guys had written the
same program and had it running on *their* computers!
I think this same spirit would work for building EVs. You just need to
get a critical mass of people to show up regularly in someone's garage,
and have some sort of club project to work on.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look up wildernessenergy.com they have both Electric bikes and hub motor
kits I have a bike with a larger battery and a 30 mile range.
Larry cronk Elec tk 72 Datsun pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
COmpare the specs I listed below:
>From http://www.texaserider.com/escooters_emax.php :
<<< e-Max offers a range up to 43 miles depending on rider/cargo weight and
terrain! An Ideal distance for inner-city commuters and weekend fresh air
rides. The e-Max has speeds 28-30 MPH. Full recharge is 5-6 hours or 3 hours
using 2 chargers. This product has tremendous potential as a reliable, low-cost
rental unit, with an excellent return on investment.
The new 1500 watt @ 6000 RPM sealed brushless motor reaches maximum torque at
2000 RPM and maintains it through 6000 RPM, thereby offering peak torque and
efficiency across the whole speed range. Regenerative braking provides superior
control and safe deceleration and braking in hilly and inner-city conditions.
Oil pressure disk brakes in front and drum brakes in the rear offer safe and
very controllable braking.
The proven, tough and rugged New 2005 e-Max with its 8 x 12V/20A Silicon battery
system is unique in e-scooters. No more lead-acid batteries to bog down
performance and create havoc in the environment with its destructive pollutants
during production, use and disposal. The new GUINENG Silicone power batteries in
the e-Max break away from the old and embrace a breakthrough in an
enviro-friendly tough and rugged package. An extremely long-life energy supply
specifically designed for the e-Max, the new Silicone system offers a
never-before seen performance standard... shelf life and power! You can store
the batteries, unused for several years without degradation! No memory loss!
Constantly worrying about losing battery memory and battery damage is no longer
wishful thinking! And power! >>>
Now, read the info from http://www.evtamerica.com/evt4000e.htm :
<<< SPEED* Based on a rider weighing 75 kilograms / 165 pounds Two versions are
available:
1. Asian: top speed 55 km/hr = 35 mph
2. European/American: top speed 48 km/hr / 30mph
Climbing 14�: 20.0kph / 12.42mph
Climbing 8�: 30.0kph / 18.64mph
MOTOR*
See picture* Description: Direct Drive
Type: 48 Volt Brush Motor
Horsepower: 3.0
...
BATTERY*
Dimensions*
See picture* Type: Sealed Lead Acid
Units Needed: 4 Batteries
Length: 210mm / 8.27in
Width: 165mm / 6.50in
Height: 173mm / 6.81in Weight: 15 kg / 33 lbs
Weight* 1 Unit: 15.0kg / 33.06lb
4 Units: 60.0kg / 132.28lb
Unit Voltage: 12 Volts
Unit Output: 50Amp Hours
...
RANGE*
...With Batteries fully loaded, the EVT-4000e has a range of 86 kilometers
(53.44 miles) if driven under optimal flat terrain condition at a steady speed
of 30.18 kph (18.75 mph)** The EVT-4000e has been declared Long Distance
Champion in both Germany*** and Taiwan international competitions >>>
So, the EVT 4000e, which has been on the market a few years, tops out at
30-35mph, and has a max range of >50mi at >18mph from a 48v/50ah (132#) SLA
pack.
The eMax can go 28-30mph with max range of 43mi (at ?mph) from a 48v/40ah pack.
Granted, a scooter built in Germany may be more dependable than an Asian
version, but you have to seperate marketing hype from reality! The batteries
seem to perform like SLAs, plus the eMax's bldc may be more efficient (but the
curves at http://www.electricmotorsport.com/PARTS/EvtSpecs.htm peak at 94%!)
I look at new product releases as another need for critical skills. I don't know
what performance and reliability issues apply to EVT scooters, but the eMax does
have to compete with the EVT's $2500-2800 retail price.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<< Gail
P.S. cowtown, no I am not a member of the LVEVA but I drive only electric
cars. >>>
No argument here - I don't join any group that would allow *me* as a member!
(with apologies to Groucho Marx)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's interesting how you can write software and
design power electronics for years in this field and
miss statements like this (Maybe it's just me, Lee
usually picks up on the intiment details).
Plug braking reveres the field on a series motor and
applies a VERY low duty cycle while producing very
high currents that circulate in the armature, which is
basically a big resistor (kind of like a mechanical
brake burning up heat) Perhaps it's the really high
current pulses during plugging that do damage to the
brushes. Regen current tends to be lower since it is
pushing current into the battery pack. Either way I
think the brush timing is not the best for this
operation, but it seems that regen is less destructive
to the brushes. So you learn something everyday on the
list. Thanks Mike for the insight, seems I need to do
a little more research on this topic.
--- "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> not according to my customers...But you must
> remember this is a
> forklift not a car and regen currents can be
> substantial.
> Mike G.
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Friday, January 21, 2005 12:05 AM
> >Subject: Re: regen...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>M.G. wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>In my information it is regen the panel is an
> ev-100 and plug braking
> >>>was always there and regen was an option.
> >>>I dont think much energy went back to the battery
> but brush life
> >>>increased by three times.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I've never heard of regen *increasing* brush life.
> It usually decreases
> >>brush life, because they now carry current more of
> the time, and the
> >>motor timing has to be a compromise between
> motoring and generating
> >>action.
> >>--
> >>"Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> >>citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the
> only thing that ever
> >>has!" -- Margaret Mead
> >>--
> >>Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Or have interpoles, or no brushes at all. Then
> regen doesn't matter.
> >
> >Regen without much current means you are KILLING
> your brushes... I bet your
> >brush life dropped by a third.
> >
> >Friction brake life goes up... rather dramaticly.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Charles Whalen wrote:
Does anyone know where to find a battery cycler for bench testing batteries,
who makes and sells them, any web links?
(As I recall from an exchange between Victor and Philippe a few weeks ago
where Philippe was lamenting the dearth of published cycling data results on
Thunder-Sky li-ions, I think Victor mentioned that such test equipment is
quite expensive; I think he said something like $5k. Are they really that
much?)
Thanks for any info,
Charles Whalen
You could make your own for less than $100 if you can live with charging
and discharging at a single rate and you don't mind running it with a
computer.
--
Martin K
http://wwia.org/sgroup/biofuel/
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Danny, I was wondering the same thing myself. I posted some days ago about
> > Testing for blocked post and sending to both [email protected] and
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] as a test.
Hi Guys,
I'm seeing a problem here with the Digest Format. I have 24 subjects on one
digest, but only one attachement when I open it up. Something tells me the
listserv may be turning some posts into a bag of lawn clippings.
Regards,
Rick Pryor
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Not everyone. I guess i got my neck caught in the "loophole", the state
still owes me 22K that I will never see. Yes I dotted all the I's and
Crossed the T's, they "repealed" the deal before I got paid and told me
"tough beans". I even got escorted out of the Alt Fuels admin building when
I made it clear i wouldn't accept this answer. The people at the state level
need to be held responsable personally and professionally/politically. And
the Alt Fuels class action lawsuit apparently was tossed out of court
because supposedly "no one was damaged" or the attorney couldn't bring
anyone foreward that was. BS. I have even e-mailed and called the attorney
that was supposedly litigating the case, he never even bothered to get back
in touch with me. A couple of the big local car dealers got millions of
dollars back. Guess they could afford attorneys to create enough discomfort
to get the state to cough up the funds.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Siebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2005 9:04 AM
Subject: Re: Ford Ranger EV Drivers Resist Repossession
Mark:
Right on! This was a great big loophole that folks in Arizona jumped
through.
/Bob
On Wednesday, January 19, 2005, at 08:29 AM, Mark Farver wrote:
Neon John wrote:
To put this in perspective, consider this government document on
alternative fuel vehicle production
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/rulings/CAFE/alternativefuels/
availability1.htm
Just for Ford's dual fuel Ranger,
Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 97,100 (4-speed automatic)
Ranger 4X2 FFV: production of 24,700 (5-speed manual)
Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 47,300 (4-speed automatic)
Ranger 4X4 FFV: production of 19,300 (5-speed manual)
Be careful of this statistic.. the auto manufacturers have been
enthusatically building dual fuel vehicles becuase a loophole in the
CAFE standards allows dual fuel vehicles to qualify as getting 2x their
fuel mileage in CAFE calculations. Thus a 22mpg Ranger that _can_ run
on ethanol counts as getting 44mpg, even if it never is actually run on
ethanol. Several manufacturers have been selling so many SUV's with mid
teens mpg that they are in danger of not meeting the 21mpg fleet fuel
economy standard for light trucks.
Mark
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Hi Gents,
Let me add my $0.02 worth as well with this link
http://www.kasea.ca/showroom/ev100s/evader100s.php
I have a feeling that most of these scooters share more or less the same
components/specs and may even be manufactured by the same company, at
least the Asian ones. I had looked into these scooters for my own use
and even read a few reviews, but what I found was that although they may
get the specified ranger it seems that the maximum speed decreases
dramatically as you approach the theoretical maximum range. These are
not available up here in Canada yet, National Motorsports who is
supposed to be bringing in these Evader bikes and distributing them is
still in the testing phases as such. I'm still holding out for building
my own EV on a Ford Festiva chassis some time in the next 2 years.
regards,
Stefano
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
COmpare the specs I listed below:
From http://www.texaserider.com/escooters_emax.php :
<<< e-Max offers a range up to 43 miles depending on rider/cargo weight and
terrain! An Ideal distance for inner-city commuters and weekend fresh air
rides. The e-Max has speeds 28-30 MPH. Full recharge is 5-6 hours or 3 hours
using 2 chargers. This product has tremendous potential as a reliable, low-cost
rental unit, with an excellent return on investment.
The new 1500 watt @ 6000 RPM sealed brushless motor reaches maximum torque at
2000 RPM and maintains it through 6000 RPM, thereby offering peak torque and
efficiency across the whole speed range. Regenerative braking provides superior
control and safe deceleration and braking in hilly and inner-city conditions.
Oil pressure disk brakes in front and drum brakes in the rear offer safe and
very controllable braking.
The proven, tough and rugged New 2005 e-Max with its 8 x 12V/20A Silicon battery
system is unique in e-scooters. No more lead-acid batteries to bog down
performance and create havoc in the environment with its destructive pollutants
during production, use and disposal. The new GUINENG Silicone power batteries in
the e-Max break away from the old and embrace a breakthrough in an
enviro-friendly tough and rugged package. An extremely long-life energy supply
specifically designed for the e-Max, the new Silicone system offers a
never-before seen performance standard... shelf life and power! You can store
the batteries, unused for several years without degradation! No memory loss!
Constantly worrying about losing battery memory and battery damage is no longer
wishful thinking! And power! >>>
Now, read the info from http://www.evtamerica.com/evt4000e.htm :
<<< SPEED* Based on a rider weighing 75 kilograms / 165 pounds Two versions are
available:
1. Asian: top speed 55 km/hr = 35 mph
2. European/American: top speed 48 km/hr / 30mph
Climbing 14�: 20.0kph / 12.42mph
Climbing 8�: 30.0kph / 18.64mph
MOTOR*
See picture* Description: Direct Drive
Type: 48 Volt Brush Motor
Horsepower: 3.0
....
BATTERY*
Dimensions*
See picture* Type: Sealed Lead Acid
Units Needed: 4 Batteries
Length: 210mm / 8.27in
Width: 165mm / 6.50in
Height: 173mm / 6.81in Weight: 15 kg / 33 lbs
Weight* 1 Unit: 15.0kg / 33.06lb
4 Units: 60.0kg / 132.28lb
Unit Voltage: 12 Volts
Unit Output: 50Amp Hours
....
RANGE*
....With Batteries fully loaded, the EVT-4000e has a range of 86 kilometers
(53.44 miles) if driven under optimal flat terrain condition at a steady speed
of 30.18 kph (18.75 mph)** The EVT-4000e has been declared Long Distance
Champion in both Germany*** and Taiwan international competitions >>>
So, the EVT 4000e, which has been on the market a few years, tops out at
30-35mph, and has a max range of >50mi at >18mph from a 48v/50ah (132#) SLA
pack.
The eMax can go 28-30mph with max range of 43mi (at ?mph) from a 48v/40ah pack.
Granted, a scooter built in Germany may be more dependable than an Asian
version, but you have to seperate marketing hype from reality! The batteries
seem to perform like SLAs, plus the eMax's bldc may be more efficient (but the
curves at http://www.electricmotorsport.com/PARTS/EvtSpecs.htm peak at 94%!)
I look at new product releases as another need for critical skills. I don't know
what performance and reliability issues apply to EVT scooters, but the eMax does
have to compete with the EVT's $2500-2800 retail price.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
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--- Begin Message ---
Charles Whalen wrote:
> Does anyone know where to find a battery cycler for bench testing
> batteries, who makes and sells them, any web links? ... I think
> Victor mentioned that such test equipment is quite expensive;
> I think he said something like $5k. Are they really that much?)
It depends on what you need. Large multi-kilowatt testers for commercial
users are expensive.
But, if you are testing just a few batteries at a time, it can be done
much less expensively. I built my own cycler using a 1500w heater, a
Rudman regulator, and a few misc. small parts. Basically, I modified the
Rudman regulator so there are pots for its turn-on and turn-off
threshold. It controls a relay, whose contacts switch the battery
between a load resistor (switchable for various currents from 4-25 amps)
and a charger (extenal; I just used a charger I already had). The plans
were published on the EV list.
I connect it to a battery, charger, and E-meter. The battery charges to
15v, where the Rudman regulator turns the relay on. This disconnects the
charger and connects the resistive load. When the battery voltage falls
to 10.5v, the Rudman regulator turns the relay off. This reconnects the
charger, the battery charges, and the cycle repeats until you manually
turn it off.
I typically hava a PC connected to the E-meter's serial port to log the
cycle data.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Joe Smalley and Rich Rudman can help you with the stuff to build a really
nice one using a rudman regulator. I think Rich even has some of the
schematics etc on his website @ manzanita micro. I have been working on a
unit of my own for the last year mainly due to me getting side tracked + i
am probably overcomplicating it with a digital process control counter and
mixed DRO + Analog readout IE: I am using this really cool antique parking
meter sized dual swing ammeter that I picked up on E-bay, I can read it from
across the room with no glasses; and a digital voltage display for the
setpoints, doing a custom case etc. I really should get back to it as I have
a ton of nicads to process. BTW, I have been thinking of building/marketing
a simple small single battery unit, even got it pretty well specd out last
year but I was unsure how it would sell. Figured we had to get 100 + ea to
really consider building them and would want to do a couple dozen at a time
at that.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 6:18 PM
Subject: battery cycler
Does anyone know where to find a battery cycler for bench testing
batteries,
who makes and sells them, any web links?
(As I recall from an exchange between Victor and Philippe a few weeks ago
where Philippe was lamenting the dearth of published cycling data results
on
Thunder-Sky li-ions, I think Victor mentioned that such test equipment is
quite expensive; I think he said something like $5k. Are they really that
much?)
Thanks for any info,
Charles Whalen
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> Let me add my $0.02 worth as well with this link
>
> http://www.kasea.ca/showroom/ev100s/evader100s.php
>
Well, here's the first problem: you're waiting for a company called Evader, who
has been making promises for years while 'evading' their investors! Can't
someone in Canada import the EVT, Lepton, or Oxygen scooters? They're pretty
comparable, so it's just a matter of getting *one* of these brands into the
country!
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Hobby suppliers have cyclers for RC cars, planes, boats, etc. They are
typically limited to about 5 amps and 20 volts. They work OK for small
batteries and cells but take too long for full size traction batteries.
There is a schematic on the manzanitamicro.com website on how to build one.
The software is not there but can be available if needed.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 5:18 PM
Subject: battery cycler
> Does anyone know where to find a battery cycler for bench testing
batteries,
> who makes and sells them, any web links?
>
> (As I recall from an exchange between Victor and Philippe a few weeks ago
> where Philippe was lamenting the dearth of published cycling data results
on
> Thunder-Sky li-ions, I think Victor mentioned that such test equipment is
> quite expensive; I think he said something like $5k. Are they really that
> much?)
>
> Thanks for any info,
>
> Charles Whalen
>
--- End Message ---
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At 1:44 PM -0500 on 1/21/05, Chris Tromley wrote:
FFs may be banned from racing (don't know, taking your word here), but there
have been motorcycles with extremely low cg that raced in the big leagues.
ELF (French oil company?) fielded several that competed in endurance races.
They were like a two-wheel mini F1 car with the rider laid out on top. The
only difference between these racers and a racing FF is that the rider was
prone, not supine (feet rearward, not forward). All the physics should
apply equally well. Better, actually, because a prone position allows the
rider to separate himself from the cg of bike to some advantage. Racers
want to go fast. These bikes were seen and ridden by the top of the racing
community. No one started clamoring for the superior performance a low cg
would supposedly offer.
Granted there is more to racing success than cg height, and other factors
may have kept the low cg from showing its advantage. But this was a very
professional effort applied over several years of development time. I think
the low cg approach got a pretty fair shot.
On low Cg vehicles, I think separating oneself from the vehicle may
be a bad thing. On the higher Cg standard layout bikes, it allows you
to use your weight to counteract the higher inertial resistance to
the lean. On a lower Cg vehicle, this could allow you to
overcompensate quickly, especially if you're used to standard
motorcycles. This could account for the ELF. This is all speculation,
however.
Also understand that I'm not saying a low cg is necessarily bad. Experience
has shown you can overdo it on a standard motorcycle. Maybe lowering cg and
polar moment together (like on the ELF racers and good FFs) counteracts the
deleterious affects that have been seen when lowering cg on a standard
motorcycle. At this point no one has any good reason to state that low cg,
on its own, is a good thing for a monotrack vehicle.
You might check out the NSU Hammocks from the 1950s. They were fully
enclosed, extremely low Cg, recumbent motorcycles that set multiple
land speed records during their heyday, and using very small engines,
as well (I don't think they ever used anything larger than 250cc).
They pretty much flattened everything else. I believe NSU stopped
making them with the advent of the rules requiring the rider's back
to be totally visible. I don't think these rules were written in
direct response to NSU, though. They were more a response to the
"dust-bin" fairings being used in the early '50s. Those fairings were
indeed dangerous and tended to induce instability at speed, but that
was due to poor aerodynamics, not Cg or polar moment.
Empirical knowledge is indeed the ultimate test. But you have to start
somewhere. Theory is a good place. IMO, Royce's grasp of theory is
generally good but has some dents here and there. Others seem to agree.
Maybe that's nothing more than communication, maybe he's got something, or
maybe he's wrong. He's pretty emphatic about the superiority of a low cg.
When he raced his FFs, was he holding his own with the top competitors in
his class? Did he dominate?
There was no class, as the formal racing organizations do not
recognize FFs in any way. But yes, I do believe the FFs Royce has run
were quite competetive with roughly comparable machines. Remember
that he was making commuter vehicles, not racers. You might check out
the Quasars made by Malcolm Newell in the '70s, especially the Sports
Quasar (better known as "The Slug") for some high-performance FFs.
You can find info on them here:
http://www.voidstar.com/bff/ffnewell.html
and here:
http://www.bikeweb.com
There are also some bits of information on the NSU machines on both
sites, I believe.
The point I'm trying to make is that Lawrence is doing something new, and
will not be able to cookbook his way to success.
To some degree, this is true, yes.
On a monotrack vehicle, anything you do in one axis *immediately*
and* substantially* affects the other two.
I'm somewhat unclear what you mean by this. Do you mean anything the
rider does to pitch or roll or yaw or do you mean the vehicle as a
whole?
Everything is inter-related to a tremendous degree. It's best to
know what you're doing, and why. Lacking that, any radical new
design is likely to end badly.
This is true of any vehicle design, but FFs are hardly new. They've
been made since the '30s. The dynamics are pretty well understood and
one advantage of the electric drive system in general is the
increased modularity. You can arrange components in many more ways
than you can with an ICE and the components themselves are generally
smaller to begin with.
I have not ridden an FF vehicle, but I assume they handle differently from
the motorcycles I have ridden. There might be some things about it that I
even like. From my point of view, I would have a hard time knowing which of
the dozens of design parameters affecting vehicle performance were
dominating the behavior of a prototype FFEV. It's too different from my
experience. Will Lawrence know how to refine his FFEV's handling?
With some research, yes. STV steering is largely the same no matter
the layout. Rake, trail, lead, etc. are all decently well understood.
It would be a smart idea to pick up a copy of Tony Foale's book,
certainly, and may be a good idea to read the technical papers on
BikeWeb.
Lawrence's approach might in fact be the best for him not because of any
handling improvement, but because of the lower frontal area and lower side
area when he puts a fairing on it. He will be tempted to use design input
from the FF crowd, and within limits that's probably a good idea. But he
must realize that his is an FF unlike "standard" FFs. He may discover
something that they could not - that you can in fact have too much of a
"good thing" like low cg. Even if he does, there are things he can do to
counter its effects to an extent. It will be an interesting development
project.
Indeed it will.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
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