EV Digest 4049
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Some basic questions
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Color me dubious, was Re: New 2005 German e-Max
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Color me dubious, was Re: New 2005 German e-Max
by "john floros" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: people willing to buy EV's
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Some basic questions
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Color me dubious
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: Some basic questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Color me dubious, was Re: New 2005 German e-Max
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Mileage Metric? Re: Some basic questions
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Terminal Types? Stud vs Post. Optimas.
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) AC motor Q's
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Color me dubious, was Re: New 2005 German e-Max
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Terminal Types? Stud vs Post. Optimas.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: to buy or to build...ebike dreams.
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Terminal Types? Stud vs Post. Optimas.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 1:53 PM -0500 on 1/21/05, MReish wrote:
I am a motorcycle racer. Okay, I 'retired' because it's so
expensive. Thank of the old joke of how to make a small fortune in
racing? Start with a big one?
Honda have tried to put a very low CG on their bikes. Back in the
early/mid 80's they had a machine called the NS500R with all the
heavy bits down low. They found that on the straightaways (where
they reached speeds of nearly 200mph - remember, this is a long time
ago) the bike would undulate back and forth. As if that weren't
scary enough, the poor pilot (Freddy Spencer) discovered it didn't
turn very well either. Very, very scary when there's a wall at the
end of the straight... After most of a racing season of Spencer's
complaints about ill handling and the Honda engineers saying he was
crazy they finally put the CG back and he won the championship.
See my comments to Lawrence as to possible explanations for that.
Uhm... no. The biggest reason I can think of why you don't see
'bents in racing is because they'd get spanked. Motorcycles are
very intimate beasts. To get one around the track in a hurry you
need to feel what front end is doing and need to be able to move
your body around. Not just lean your torso left and right but stand
on the pegs, move your weight over the front wheel, over the back
wheel, etc. I've only test ridden a 'bent and I couldn't do that.
On a 'bent you're isolated from the front end like a car (bleh).
It's like groping the prom queen with mittens on your hands.
Don't tell NSU that! They might figure they never actually got all
those land speed records! Heh.
In general, it seem to me the reason you have to move yourself around
so much on a standard motorcycle is because it does have such a high
Cg. With a lower Cg and lower polar moment, you can steer more
quickly with less force.
In the end, we'll probably never know, since recumbents are still
banned. Unless someone wants to get two sportsbikes, convert one to
FF and try racing it's unmodified brother. Anyone got 40 - 50 grand
for me to do this?
Don't get me wrong: I love recumbents. I have one on the drawing board.
HPV or PTW? Care to share details?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm still trying to grasp this whole electric
range/performance thing..
For these questions, lets use a 2500lb glider as the target
weight, regardless of motor size and battery number to keep
this simple.
1. Which motor would be the fastest in the 1/4 mile? The
8, 9, 11, or 13" WarP motor?
2. What number of 12v batteries in series would cause the
motor to be limited by a Zilla 1K?
3. Let's say I could fit 18 batteries in the trunk alone
for a 216 volt setup. I could also fit 7 more where the
back seat is for a 300 volt setup. The three drawbacks to
25 vs's 18 would be the increase in weight, the additional
battery expense, and to a lesser extent, the loss of the
back seat.
With the 2500lb car, whichever motor, and the Zilla 2k if
needed, what could the 1/4 mile be with 216 and 300 volts?
4. With a series setup, does more batteries equal more
range? What type of range could be expected with either the
216 or 300 volt setup? Orbitals most likely.
Thanks for any info.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I read they are producing this "German" product in Asia. :LR....
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 7:20 PM
Subject: Color me dubious, was Re: New 2005 German e-Max
COmpare the specs I listed below:
From http://www.texaserider.com/escooters_emax.php :
<<< e-Max offers a range up to 43 miles depending on rider/cargo weight
and
terrain! An Ideal distance for inner-city commuters and weekend fresh air
rides. The e-Max has speeds 28-30 MPH. Full recharge is 5-6 hours or 3
hours
using 2 chargers. This product has tremendous potential as a reliable,
low-cost
rental unit, with an excellent return on investment.
The new 1500 watt @ 6000 RPM sealed brushless motor reaches maximum torque
at
2000 RPM and maintains it through 6000 RPM, thereby offering peak torque
and
efficiency across the whole speed range. Regenerative braking provides
superior
control and safe deceleration and braking in hilly and inner-city
conditions.
Oil pressure disk brakes in front and drum brakes in the rear offer safe
and
very controllable braking.
The proven, tough and rugged New 2005 e-Max with its 8 x 12V/20A Silicon
battery
system is unique in e-scooters. No more lead-acid batteries to bog down
performance and create havoc in the environment with its destructive
pollutants
during production, use and disposal. The new GUINENG Silicone power
batteries in
the e-Max break away from the old and embrace a breakthrough in an
enviro-friendly tough and rugged package. An extremely long-life energy
supply
specifically designed for the e-Max, the new Silicone system offers a
never-before seen performance standard... shelf life and power! You can
store
the batteries, unused for several years without degradation! No memory
loss!
Constantly worrying about losing battery memory and battery damage is no
longer
wishful thinking! And power! >>>
Now, read the info from http://www.evtamerica.com/evt4000e.htm :
<<< SPEED* Based on a rider weighing 75 kilograms / 165 pounds Two
versions are
available:
1. Asian: top speed 55 km/hr = 35 mph
2. European/American: top speed 48 km/hr / 30mph
Climbing 14�: 20.0kph / 12.42mph
Climbing 8�: 30.0kph / 18.64mph
MOTOR*
See picture* Description: Direct Drive
Type: 48 Volt Brush Motor
Horsepower: 3.0
...
BATTERY*
Dimensions*
See picture* Type: Sealed Lead Acid
Units Needed: 4 Batteries
Length: 210mm / 8.27in
Width: 165mm / 6.50in
Height: 173mm / 6.81in Weight: 15 kg / 33 lbs
Weight* 1 Unit: 15.0kg / 33.06lb
4 Units: 60.0kg / 132.28lb
Unit Voltage: 12 Volts
Unit Output: 50Amp Hours
...
RANGE*
...With Batteries fully loaded, the EVT-4000e has a range of 86 kilometers
(53.44 miles) if driven under optimal flat terrain condition at a steady
speed
of 30.18 kph (18.75 mph)** The EVT-4000e has been declared Long Distance
Champion in both Germany*** and Taiwan international competitions >>>
So, the EVT 4000e, which has been on the market a few years, tops out at
30-35mph, and has a max range of >50mi at >18mph from a 48v/50ah (132#)
SLA
pack.
The eMax can go 28-30mph with max range of 43mi (at ?mph) from a 48v/40ah
pack.
Granted, a scooter built in Germany may be more dependable than an Asian
version, but you have to seperate marketing hype from reality! The
batteries
seem to perform like SLAs, plus the eMax's bldc may be more efficient (but
the
curves at http://www.electricmotorsport.com/PARTS/EvtSpecs.htm peak at
94%!)
I look at new product releases as another need for critical skills. I
don't know
what performance and reliability issues apply to EVT scooters, but the
eMax does
have to compete with the EVT's $2500-2800 retail price.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 10:15 AM
Subject: Re: Color me dubious, was Re: New 2005 German e-Max
As I read they are producing this "German" product in Asia. :LR....
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 7:20 PM
Subject: Color me dubious, was Re: New 2005 German e-Max
COmpare the specs I listed below:
From http://www.texaserider.com/escooters_emax.php :
<<< e-Max offers a range up to 43 miles depending on rider/cargo weight
and
terrain! An Ideal distance for inner-city commuters and weekend fresh air
rides. The e-Max has speeds 28-30 MPH. Full recharge is 5-6 hours or 3
hours
using 2 chargers. This product has tremendous potential as a reliable,
low-cost
rental unit, with an excellent return on investment.
The new 1500 watt @ 6000 RPM sealed brushless motor reaches maximum
torque at
2000 RPM and maintains it through 6000 RPM, thereby offering peak torque
and
efficiency across the whole speed range. Regenerative braking provides
superior
control and safe deceleration and braking in hilly and inner-city
conditions.
Oil pressure disk brakes in front and drum brakes in the rear offer safe
and
very controllable braking.
The proven, tough and rugged New 2005 e-Max with its 8 x 12V/20A Silicon
battery
system is unique in e-scooters. No more lead-acid batteries to bog down
performance and create havoc in the environment with its destructive
pollutants
during production, use and disposal. The new GUINENG Silicone power
batteries in
the e-Max break away from the old and embrace a breakthrough in an
enviro-friendly tough and rugged package. An extremely long-life energy
supply
specifically designed for the e-Max, the new Silicone system offers a
never-before seen performance standard... shelf life and power! You can
store
the batteries, unused for several years without degradation! No memory
loss!
Constantly worrying about losing battery memory and battery damage is no
longer
wishful thinking! And power! >>>
Now, read the info from http://www.evtamerica.com/evt4000e.htm :
<<< SPEED* Based on a rider weighing 75 kilograms / 165 pounds Two
versions are
available:
1. Asian: top speed 55 km/hr = 35 mph
2. European/American: top speed 48 km/hr / 30mph
Climbing 14�: 20.0kph / 12.42mph
Climbing 8�: 30.0kph / 18.64mph
MOTOR*
See picture* Description: Direct Drive
Type: 48 Volt Brush Motor
Horsepower: 3.0
...
BATTERY*
Dimensions*
See picture* Type: Sealed Lead Acid
Units Needed: 4 Batteries
Length: 210mm / 8.27in
Width: 165mm / 6.50in
Height: 173mm / 6.81in Weight: 15 kg / 33 lbs
Weight* 1 Unit: 15.0kg / 33.06lb
4 Units: 60.0kg / 132.28lb
Unit Voltage: 12 Volts
Unit Output: 50Amp Hours
...
RANGE*
...With Batteries fully loaded, the EVT-4000e has a range of 86
kilometers
(53.44 miles) if driven under optimal flat terrain condition at a steady
speed
of 30.18 kph (18.75 mph)** The EVT-4000e has been declared Long Distance
Champion in both Germany*** and Taiwan international competitions >>>
So, the EVT 4000e, which has been on the market a few years, tops out at
30-35mph, and has a max range of >50mi at >18mph from a 48v/50ah (132#)
SLA
pack.
The eMax can go 28-30mph with max range of 43mi (at ?mph) from a 48v/40ah
pack.
Granted, a scooter built in Germany may be more dependable than an Asian
version, but you have to seperate marketing hype from reality! The
batteries
seem to perform like SLAs, plus the eMax's bldc may be more efficient
(but the
curves at http://www.electricmotorsport.com/PARTS/EvtSpecs.htm peak at
94%!)
I look at new product releases as another need for critical skills. I
don't know
what performance and reliability issues apply to EVT scooters, but the
eMax does
have to compete with the EVT's $2500-2800 retail price.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, Lee, I would say you and this list and the internet are a
magic spark!
I knew about electric conversions in the 70's and 80's -- knew they
were pretty slow when you'd read things like "can hit 60 mph."
Then GM did its fabulous Impact prototype. Wow, an electric car that
went 190 mph! Then I knew a freeway safe electric car was possible.
Of course, a megabuck, make that gigabuck corporation could do such a
thing.
My electric appetite was whetted, so poking around the web I found
this list. Wow, this John Wayland character was burning rubber,
beating V8's, and he did economical conversions on old gas cars
himself! Now I knew it was possible for a kilobuck guy like myself to
have a freeway capable electric, better yet a tire scorcher! Not to
mention cleaning the air, lessening oil dependence, and avoiding
those smog tests.
It gives me confidence to forge ahead to know others have first tried
components I'm buying, to be warned on that too-good-to-be-true deal
on that motor or batteries, and to have a resource for questions.
I probably wouldn't be doing a conversion today were it not for this
list. Happily, now that my traveling has ended the pace has been
picking up:
Read list for several years
Get donor car late 2002
Get electric motor late 2003
Early 2004: Finish workshop
Mid 2004: motor out
Late 2004-now: Get motor tranny separated, get lightweight
pressure plate + flywheel + clutch parts, get taperlock adapter, soon
to be bolting electric motor and tranny and everything in between
together. A long ways to go yet, but the light is at the end of the
tunnnel (no, it is not a diesel train).
It has been great fun that stuff has now been happening weekly. Maybe
I'm unique this way, but the process of conversion has been fun --
fun enough I'm already looking forward to doing a 2nd conversion.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The BIG problem is that as we all sit here at our computers reading
> and
> looking at the pretty pictures, we aren't really *doing* anything!
> Gathering information and learning is great. But we need some sort
> of
> "magic spark" to leap out of the screen and zap the reader into
> turning
> off the computer and going out into the garage to actually BUILD
> something!
>
> I think part of the problem is that most websites (and TV programs
> for
> that matter) simply document what someone else did. "This is what I
> did..." We watch it passively. No input or response or action is
> expected from the viewer -- so none is given.
>
> "How To..." books are a lot more likely to be structured to
> encourage
> you to actually *do* something. Step-by-step instructions, with
> illustrations, lots of reference data and charts, and none of the
> chattiness or storytelling. "This is what YOU do..."
>
> Websites or videos could (and occasionally are) structured like
> this;
> but it's pretty rare. I think websites offer some *real*
> opportunities
> to do "how to" instructions very well. Pictures don't need to be
> static
> like a book; they can include video snips ("move it like this...").
> The
> reference data can have links (here is a battery chart; click on
> one for
> more data on it).
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Suggest you peruse http://www.nedra.com and see what the electric
drag racers do with various numbers of batteries.
Something else to consider is front wheel drive or rear wheel drive?
Putting too many of the batteries in the front of a RWD (or too many
in the rear of a FWD) will hurt the launch and kill your 1/4 time.
Just parroting others here, for range figure about 300 Wh per Optima
or Orbital, and between 150 Wh/mile (optimistic) and 250 Wh/mile
(more realistic). I like Bill Dube's metric, take the car's original
gas mileage and figure that's about how many miles about 1000 pounds
of lead acid batteries will take you. YMMV. :)
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm still trying to grasp this whole electric
> range/performance thing..
>
> For these questions, lets use a 2500lb glider as the target
> weight, regardless of motor size and battery number to keep
> this simple.
>
>
> 1. Which motor would be the fastest in the 1/4 mile? The
> 8, 9, 11, or 13" WarP motor?
>
> 2. What number of 12v batteries in series would cause the
> motor to be limited by a Zilla 1K?
>
> 3. Let's say I could fit 18 batteries in the trunk alone
> for a 216 volt setup. I could also fit 7 more where the
> back seat is for a 300 volt setup. The three drawbacks to
> 25 vs's 18 would be the increase in weight, the additional
> battery expense, and to a lesser extent, the loss of the
> back seat.
>
> With the 2500lb car, whichever motor, and the Zilla 2k if
> needed, what could the 1/4 mile be with 216 and 300 volts?
>
> 4. With a series setup, does more batteries equal more
> range? What type of range could be expected with either the
> 216 or 300 volt setup? Orbitals most likely.
>
> Thanks for any info.
>
>
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> As I read they are producing this "German" product in Asia. :LR....
>
hmmm - sounds even *more* like the EVT...other than the silicon-enhanced
batteries and bldc motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Suggest you peruse http://www.nedra.com and see what the electric
> drag racers do with various numbers of batteries.
>
> Something else to consider is front wheel drive or rear wheel drive?
> Putting too many of the batteries in the front of a RWD (or too many
> in the rear of a FWD) will hurt the launch and kill your 1/4 time.
>
Another good site for edification purposes is http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ -
should be required reading for every new listee *before* they post their first
question. Plenty of other sites for those who need more basic knowledge of
electricity and batteries -- got google?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly ! another china product.
This is THE problem and you can trust me (i inspect his components and
"quality"): it's a a big probem,
though they are working to ameliore it.
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: Color me dubious, was Re: New 2005 German e-Max
> As I read they are producing this "German" product in Asia. :LR....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2005 7:20 PM
> Subject: Color me dubious, was Re: New 2005 German e-Max
>
>
> > COmpare the specs I listed below:
> >
> >>From http://www.texaserider.com/escooters_emax.php :
> >
> > <<< e-Max offers a range up to 43 miles depending on rider/cargo weight
> > and
> > terrain! An Ideal distance for inner-city commuters and weekend fresh
air
> > rides. The e-Max has speeds 28-30 MPH. Full recharge is 5-6 hours or 3
> > hours
> > using 2 chargers. This product has tremendous potential as a reliable,
> > low-cost
> > rental unit, with an excellent return on investment.
> >
> > The new 1500 watt @ 6000 RPM sealed brushless motor reaches maximum
torque
> > at
> > 2000 RPM and maintains it through 6000 RPM, thereby offering peak torque
> > and
> > efficiency across the whole speed range. Regenerative braking provides
> > superior
..........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
Just parroting others here, for range figure about 300 Wh per Optima
or Orbital, and between 150 Wh/mile (optimistic) and 250 Wh/mile
(more realistic). I like Bill Dube's metric, take the car's original
gas mileage and figure that's about how many miles about 1000 pounds
of lead acid batteries will take you. YMMV. :)
So, a 20 mpg car would go 20 miles per 1000 lbs of lead?
A smaller 35 mpg car might go 35 miles?
An Insight (70 mpg) may travel 70 miles?
.oO( or is the 70mpg insight a 'special case' ? )
Just curious, I like metrics, however
inaccurate they may turn out to be.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanx for the tips, does the torque values corilate in any way
to the current capabilities of the connection? That is, does
the pressure increase the contact surface's current capibilities?
Or is it simply to ensure that the connections stay connected.
Just so we're all on the same page here's the batteries I'm looking at:
Post: http://www.remybattery.com/350/graphics/00000001/yellowtop31p.jpg
Stud: http://www.remybattery.com/350/graphics/00000001/yellowtop31s.jpg
I'm still unsure about the capibilities of the two post options,
the standard lead posts would seem to have more surface area in play,
but the 3/8" studs are probably steel as lead would strip to easily.
From what I can tell by the photo if the stud is 3/8" then the top
flat surface is probably at least 3/4" and if you include the beveled
area they look to be at least 1" if not 1-1/8" to 1-1/4" in diameter.
Flipping back and fourth between these photos, it appears that the
base of the stud is the same diameter as the posts.
I also noticed that the studed battery appears to have a dark gasket
which is missing in the photo of the battery with posts? <Shrugs>
So, how do the conductive properties of a lead versus steel (or are they
some other material?) compare? Is the steel stud more conductive such
that less surface area is required for the same ammount of current?
Humm, So I was thinking that I would be drawing as much current as these
babies would with out, that is approaching 2000 Amps. So I thought that
the battery connections would be critical. Turns out that the hardware
I'll be using will peak at a meer 1320 Amps (barring any fun contactor
bypassing). So this isn't far from these batteries 1125 Amp rating.
Still, let's say I'm going for maximum 1/4 mile current will the studs
be able to keep up with the posts? What do all you NEDRA guys use?
I still think I would prefer the studs as they should be easier to
wire and should look cleaner than big bulkie post squeezing terminals.
.oO( Though I may be wrong as I don't yet have much experience yet )
L8r
Ryan
Roland Wiench wrote:
Make sure, that the stud type will withstand a pull out force of at least
100 inch lbs and the top pad area is at least 3/4 inch in diameter.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Anyway, which type should I get, when I go to get some?
The D31A has standard SAE Posts, and
the D31T has 3/8" Studs (cleaner?, more secure?, easier?)
But how will the terminal choice effect current capabilities?
Can you draw more through the Post or the Stud, or are
they both capable of dealing with Drag Strip currents?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
I have a couple of questions, probably "aimed" at Lee!
There's a nice looking 3 phase AC motor up on Ebay,
which looks about right for doing some homebrew AC
drive experiments.
It's a Baldor 7.5 HP 3 phase motor, type SM132SB4
4 pole, 1450 rpm on 50Hz, 240v delta or 400v wye connections
weight is 44 Kg, approx 100lbs for our non-metric friends!
I'm trying to recall Lee's posts about rewinding
AC motors, and how much power you can actually get
out of them.
If I'm remembering correctly, by reconnecting the 4 sets
of stator windings in parallel rather than series, I can
drop the voltage requirements by a factor of 4.
So a 600V inverter becomes a slightly safer 150V inverter...
Obviously the current goes up by a factor of 4.
By running the motor twice as fast, ( 2900 rpm, from an
inverter output of 100 Hz 3 phase), I can get 2x nameplate
HP out. So now I'm at 15 HP output - getting pretty interesting!
I seem to remember Lee having another trick to double
the power again, but can't remember what it is.
Can you remind me Lee?
Thanks!
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
`lo all
--- Stefano Landi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.kasea.ca/showroom/ev100s/evader100s.php
> I have a feeling that most of these scooters share more
> or less the same components/specs and may even be
> manufactured by the same company, at
> least the Asian ones.
I stumbled across the city of Yongkang, China a couple of years ago.
At that time Yongkang had over 300 companies all making parts for
and/or assembling little two- and three-wheeled gas and electric
vehicles (scoots and bikes.)
Some co's have production facilities that cover millions of square
feet, and some only a few thousand.
One or two or three of the companies make body shells or a kick stand
or a brake assembly or a seat and sell their product to the other
companies...
Yongkang has a long history as China's "Hardware Capital"... and also
boasts the highest amputations per capita from industrial accidents.
(I always say to be sure and check the shipping carton for extra
"parts". <grin>)
Anywhoooo, many of the Yongkang companies go back decades, making wire
brushes and pots and pans, etc etc, and only in the last decade had
begun to make or assemble vehicles.
In the last few years, where 80% of NA imports of far east
2-/3-wheelers started out coming from Taiwan, the last time I checked
the Taiwan exports had dried up, and now 80% of production comes from
China.
The change in foreign ownership rules in China a few years back seems
to have generated a capital flight from Taiwan and into China (at least
as far as the little vehicles are concerned.)
Most Yongkang co's don't make any vehicle-related parts at all, and
only assemble.
Monday to Thursday Company A might be pumping out cookware, and on
Friday, if they're not busy, they'll assemble some vehicles.
Because they share common components, the vehicles look v.similar, but
features and guts vary, depending on the buyers requirements and
whatever bits one company might have hanging around on a given day.
It's largely up to the buyers (middlemen) to spec parts, and things are
generally done to the bare minimums (the end consumers drive this with
retail price being the main concern vs quality it seems.)
Most folks in Yongkang scoff at the quality and wouldn't ride their own
product themselves.
There's a fellow in CA that owns the rights to the "Boreem" brand, and
he has certainly helped to popularize the Yongkang product in NA,
especially the "Dolphin" style of scooter.
The Yongkang scoots have a (deserved) rep for low quality, but
Deafscooter will confirm that their quality has improved over these
last few years.
I look at the Yongkang products like those funny little cars made in
Japan that appeared on NA roads so many years ago... when the "Made in
Japan" label meant low quality.
Lock
aboard MV Phoenix
on the hard and scootin' by the bay
Toronto Harbour
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The current flow is from the terminal contact to the top of the lead
battery post. The stud just performs a connection that also provides
pressure between these two surfaces.
When you clean these lead surfaces, the darker lead color should be a
brighter color. Now if you take a look closely at these surfaces, you will
see low and high areas of the lead surface that has looks like sand paper
scratches.
On initial contact, only the high areas will come in contact with a wire
terminal. When applying a current load through this contact surface, the
higher contact surfaces will melt down of what we call shrink back.
This increases the resistance of this terminal connection. According to
Lee, battery connections are normally at 0.001 ohm. Standard battery post
and cable could be at this number, but the top wire terminal with decrease
area would be less.
Retorqing the connection several times, will reestablised a good connection
after it shrink back each time. A good mechanic retorque all the engine
bolts after the engine is initially run.
If you are set on using a top connection:
1. Make sure that the stud bolt has a L lug type
head.
2. A minimum of 3/8 inch bolt dia. Many are 5/15
inch, which all of mine 5/16 bolts pull out.
3. The stud bolt is at least 1/2 inch or more
the top of the post or pad surface.
Some companies only put them 1/8 inch below the
top pad.
4. Specified that you want a option pad type of
connection post that is 1 inch in diameter with
the above specifications.
Some companys will not do this so you will have
modified them yourself.
There are taper cone type battery connectors
that slip down over the battery post with the
bolt stud protruding threw a hole. This taper
cone is normally brass which is silver or gold
plate.
Used a very heavy duty round end wire terminal
that is also brass and plated, connected to
the stud protruded threw the cone collar.
Some time back in the 70's, these type of
connector was made in all one piece with the
cable attach to it. Both ends were soft plastic
cover that fuse into the cable. One end was
color and the other end was black color.
The stainless steel stud came threw the top,
where you can leave it expose for testing, or
cap it off with a bolt cap which looks like a
color vacuum cap.
At the time, these cost about $20.00 each! So
I made these collars my self on my lathe. Using
brass stock of 1-1/4 OD with a 3/8 hole, I cut
a taper to match the battery post. If you have
machine shop do it, make sure it is mill, so
that the top of the battery post is about 1/4
inch from the top of this cone. This allows for
shrinking of the lead post, which after time
will become flush with the top of the cone.
Then you have to have them lead or gold
plated. Silver is the best conductor, but it
starts to gain resistance, because it instantly
tarnishes.
This connection type reforces the battery post,
prevents shrinking and mushrooming of the
battery post. It allow me to torque to 15 ft
lbs with no trouble.
If you do not what to go through all that trouble, You can get gold plate
taper battery connectors, that has no exposed bolts or fasterners.
Everything is a smooth design which looks like a large solder drop
connection on a circuit board.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 4:30 AM
Subject: Re: Terminal Types? Stud vs Post. Optimas.
> Thanx for the tips, does the torque values corilate in any way
> to the current capabilities of the connection? That is, does
> the pressure increase the contact surface's current capibilities?
> Or is it simply to ensure that the connections stay connected.
>
> Just so we're all on the same page here's the batteries I'm looking at:
> Post: http://www.remybattery.com/350/graphics/00000001/yellowtop31p.jpg
> Stud: http://www.remybattery.com/350/graphics/00000001/yellowtop31s.jpg
>
> I'm still unsure about the capibilities of the two post options,
> the standard lead posts would seem to have more surface area in play,
> but the 3/8" studs are probably steel as lead would strip to easily.
>
> From what I can tell by the photo if the stud is 3/8" then the top
> flat surface is probably at least 3/4" and if you include the beveled
> area they look to be at least 1" if not 1-1/8" to 1-1/4" in diameter.
> Flipping back and fourth between these photos, it appears that the
> base of the stud is the same diameter as the posts.
>
> I also noticed that the studed battery appears to have a dark gasket
> which is missing in the photo of the battery with posts? <Shrugs>
>
> So, how do the conductive properties of a lead versus steel (or are they
> some other material?) compare? Is the steel stud more conductive such
> that less surface area is required for the same ammount of current?
>
> Humm, So I was thinking that I would be drawing as much current as these
> babies would with out, that is approaching 2000 Amps. So I thought that
> the battery connections would be critical. Turns out that the hardware
> I'll be using will peak at a meer 1320 Amps (barring any fun contactor
> bypassing). So this isn't far from these batteries 1125 Amp rating.
> Still, let's say I'm going for maximum 1/4 mile current will the studs
> be able to keep up with the posts? What do all you NEDRA guys use?
>
> I still think I would prefer the studs as they should be easier to
> wire and should look cleaner than big bulkie post squeezing terminals.
> .oO( Though I may be wrong as I don't yet have much experience yet )
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Make sure, that the stud type will withstand a pull out force of at
> > least
> > 100 inch lbs and the top pad area is at least 3/4 inch in diameter.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>Anyway, which type should I get, when I go to get some?
> >>The D31A has standard SAE Posts, and
> >>the D31T has 3/8" Studs (cleaner?, more secure?, easier?)
> >>But how will the terminal choice effect current capabilities?
> >>
> >>Can you draw more through the Post or the Stud, or are
> >>they both capable of dealing with Drag Strip currents?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hiya
I haven't done this, but in theory it would be easy to carry a second
batt pack (approx.20lbs? depends...) in my backpack (battpack?), wired
with plug into my charging port on the scoot... well, easy if you don't
mind the extra weight on the back <smile>. I'm sure it's better to keep
the weight lower down, but...
In mulling designs for my nextgen scoot, my pack will definitely be
easily "swapable", whether built in to the scoot or on my back, or
both.
My clients and familiar restaurants etc. let me bring my scoot indoors
for charging, which is often more convenient than locking/unlocking it
up outside, but it also helps keep the batts warm when the ambient is
not (it's -4�F here this am!)
I expect I'll go with a backpack pack and wire to a plug at the
handles, to make it easy to quick disconnect and keep the wire harness
shorter/lighter.
And it'll be easier to insulate the "battery box" on my back too, so I
can discard the insulation when the sprng/summer temps kick in.
By splitting the weight of the scoot (batts in separate back pack), two
trips up/down stairs will reduce the weight to carry per trip, if
desired.
Without any apparent batteries on the scoot, this may make things
easier for me when I have sidewalk conversations with our local police
(my vehicle is illegal as it has power-assist and I kick it instead of
the trouble and nuisance and danger of pedals and gears/etc.)
While there are many reasons why the standup scoot config with smaller
wheels is twice as safe as the bicycle for a two-wheeler, the smaller
size and weight also makes them easier to move around through doors and
indoors. Easy to turn around in an elevator, for example. The flat
bottom of the scoot "parks" itself on the steps going up and down
escalators (!)
Power-assist kick scoots make the pedal bikes look silly in todays
urban environments.
Cheers
Lock Hughes
aboard MV Phoenix
on the hard and scootin' by the bay
Toronto Harbour
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You mention carrying a second battery pack.
> Check on the weight before you plan to do that.
> The bikes are already heavy and if you carry an extra battery
> you will use up your rack space, or basket if you have one,
> and the bike will be even more difficult to drag around.
> I would not want something that heavy to add to the weight
> that falls on me when I tip over, or to add to the load
> on the battery in use.
>The chargers are lighter so I would carry one of those if
>I needed more range. One would fit in a backpack but I
>wouldn't try carrying a battery in there.
> I can't imagine hauling an electric bike up or down stairs.
> I think it would be difficult and dangerous.
> If it slipped it could knock you
> down
> and land on top of you at the bottom. Do you have somewhere on
> ground
> level, like a storage room, where you could keep the bike and just
> carry
> the battery inside for charging? That would still be a nuisance but
> probably less of one than a stair climb.
>
> If you think of any way I could help you with your project, drop me a
> note. I do not work on stuff but I know where some dealers are.
> Sharper
> Image had a rather nice electric bike when I was there a few months
> ago,
> but without the features I like on my E-Bike.
> Gail
______________________________________________________________________
Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: Terminal Types? Stud vs Post. Optimas.
> The current flow is from the terminal contact to the top of the lead
> battery post. The stud just performs a connection that also provides
> pressure between these two surfaces.
>
> When you clean these lead surfaces, the darker lead color should be a
> brighter color. Now if you take a look closely at these surfaces, you
> will see low and high areas of the lead surface that has looks like sand
> paper scratches.
>
> On initial contact, only the high areas will come in contact with a wire
> terminal. When applying a current load through this contact surface, the
> higher contact surfaces will melt down of what we call shrink back.
>
> This increases the resistance of this terminal connection. According to
> Lee, battery connections are normally at 0.001 ohm. Standard battery post
> and cable could be at this number, but the top wire terminal with decrease
> area would be less. (CORRECTION,SHOULD READ MORE)
>
> Retorqing the connection several times, will reestablised a good
> connection after it shrink back each time. A good mechanic retorque all
> the engine bolts after the engine is initially run.
>
> If you are set on using a top connection:
>
> 1. Make sure that the stud bolt has a L lug type
> head.
> 2. A minimum of 3/8 inch bolt dia. Many are 5/15
> inch, which all of mine 5/16 bolts pull out.
> 3. The stud bolt is at least 1/2 inch or more
> the top of the post or pad surface.
> Some companies only put them 1/8 inch below the
> top pad.
> 4. Specified that you want a option pad type of
> connection post that is 1 inch in diameter with
> the above specifications.
>
> Some companys will not do this so you will have
> modified them yourself.
>
> There are taper cone type battery connectors
> that slip down over the battery post with the
> bolt stud protruding threw a hole. This taper
> cone is normally brass which is silver or gold
> plate.
>
> Used a very heavy duty round end wire terminal
> that is also brass and plated, connected to
> the stud protruded threw the cone collar.
>
> Some time back in the 70's, these type of
> connector was made in all one piece with the
> cable attach to it. Both ends were soft plastic
> cover that fuse into the cable. One end was
> color and the other end was black color.
> The stainless steel stud came threw the top,
> where you can leave it expose for testing, or
> cap it off with a bolt cap which looks like a
> color vacuum cap.
>
> At the time, these cost about $20.00 each! So
> I made these collars my self on my lathe. Using
> brass stock of 1-1/4 OD with a 3/8 hole, I cut
> a taper to match the battery post. If you have
> machine shop do it, make sure it is mill, so
> that the top of the battery post is about 1/4
> inch from the top of this cone. This allows for
> shrinking of the lead post, which after time
> will become flush with the top of the cone.
>
> Then you have to have them lead or gold
> plated. Silver is the best conductor, but it
> starts to gain resistance, because it instantly
> tarnishes.
>
> This connection type reforces the battery post,
> prevents shrinking and mushrooming of the
> battery post. It allow me to torque to 15 ft
> lbs with no trouble.
>
> If you do not what to go through all that trouble, You can get gold plate
> taper battery connectors, that has no exposed bolts or fasterners.
> Everything is a smooth design which looks like a large solder drop
> connection on a circuit board.
>
> Roland
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 4:30 AM
> Subject: Re: Terminal Types? Stud vs Post. Optimas.
>
>
> > Thanx for the tips, does the torque values corilate in any way
> > to the current capabilities of the connection? That is, does
> > the pressure increase the contact surface's current capibilities?
> > Or is it simply to ensure that the connections stay connected.
> >
> > Just so we're all on the same page here's the batteries I'm looking at:
> > Post: http://www.remybattery.com/350/graphics/00000001/yellowtop31p.jpg
> > Stud: http://www.remybattery.com/350/graphics/00000001/yellowtop31s.jpg
> >
> > I'm still unsure about the capibilities of the two post options,
> > the standard lead posts would seem to have more surface area in play,
> > but the 3/8" studs are probably steel as lead would strip to easily.
> >
> > From what I can tell by the photo if the stud is 3/8" then the top
> > flat surface is probably at least 3/4" and if you include the beveled
> > area they look to be at least 1" if not 1-1/8" to 1-1/4" in diameter.
> > Flipping back and fourth between these photos, it appears that the
> > base of the stud is the same diameter as the posts.
> >
> > I also noticed that the studed battery appears to have a dark gasket
> > which is missing in the photo of the battery with posts? <Shrugs>
> >
> > So, how do the conductive properties of a lead versus steel (or are they
> > some other material?) compare? Is the steel stud more conductive such
> > that less surface area is required for the same ammount of current?
> >
> > Humm, So I was thinking that I would be drawing as much current as these
> > babies would with out, that is approaching 2000 Amps. So I thought that
> > the battery connections would be critical. Turns out that the hardware
> > I'll be using will peak at a meer 1320 Amps (barring any fun contactor
> > bypassing). So this isn't far from these batteries 1125 Amp rating.
> > Still, let's say I'm going for maximum 1/4 mile current will the studs
> > be able to keep up with the posts? What do all you NEDRA guys use?
> >
> > I still think I would prefer the studs as they should be easier to
> > wire and should look cleaner than big bulkie post squeezing terminals.
> > .oO( Though I may be wrong as I don't yet have much experience yet )
> >
> > L8r
> > Ryan
> >
> > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > Make sure, that the stud type will withstand a pull out force of at
> > > least
> > > 100 inch lbs and the top pad area is at least 3/4 inch in diameter.
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >>Anyway, which type should I get, when I go to get some?
> > >>The D31A has standard SAE Posts, and
> > >>the D31T has 3/8" Studs (cleaner?, more secure?, easier?)
> > >>But how will the terminal choice effect current capabilities?
> > >>
> > >>Can you draw more through the Post or the Stud, or are
> > >>they both capable of dealing with Drag Strip currents?
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
