EV Digest 4054
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: OT re: EV taglines
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: New recumbent motorcycle.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) OT re: EV taglines
by "steve ollerton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) motorcycle stability
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) New & Used Nicads - sources?
by "elists" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for the CHP
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Vogelbuilt bike (OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered...)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Flywheel clocking - Melaxis sensor from Digi-key
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Hose for vacuum system
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Hose for vacuum system
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: New recumbent motorcycle EV's., 50 mph GC transaxle trikes
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hose for vacuum system
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) OT article: Thrice Bitten: Aprilia's Three-wheeler Concept
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New recumbent motorcycle.
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: OCC to build world's first Lithium-powered Chopper for the CHP
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: motorcycle stability
by "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: nicad question - new question
by "Dodson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: nicad question
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Magnecharger replacing
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Hose for vacuum system
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hurley wrote:
> Take a look at http://www.hightech.clara.net/pearly.htm at the bottom
> of the page to see what can happen when a well-made FF gets clobbered
> by a car. Royce walked away from that with a bruised thumb, as I
> remember. Note that the vehicle was rebuilt as well and is still on
> the road, now wearing yellow. It is Royce's daily driver.
This is perhaps a difference in philosophy. Looking at the photos, getting
only a bruised thumb seems possible but unlikely. He states in his captions
that significant damage was done to the bike from his body hitting and
deforming things. In another accident, with a different rider, those
impacts could easily cause far more injury. If you accept impact between
the passenger and the vehicle "interior", you need to start looking at
things like a car designer. One has to wonder if it makes sense to equip
the rider with a seat belt, shoulder harness and roll bar. Why not just
drive a car?
Granted if you get thrown from your standard motorcycle and hit something
hard, you're in for a world of hurt. But you'd be amazed how infrequently
that happens. I rode for many years, crashed many times and never hit
anything. Not only that, but on a standard motorcycle your first instinct
is to get away from the bike in a crash. With a FF, you're wearing it. No
rider wants to get pinned and dragged by his bike. That's far more likely
on a FF.
Again, it's a difference in philosophy. No one gets to pick their
accidents. We each need to evaluate our approach for ourselves.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> But, if mine bother people, I can take mine out.
David Chapman wrote:
> Don't you dare... your re-acquainting us all with BFs "Dead and
> rotten" really hit me hard with its appropriateness...
For old time's sake, I put it at the bottom of this email :-)
> Besides getting me back interested in pursuing my EV endeavors
> I recently passed that quote on to an 85 year old friend and
> business associate of mine. He had never heard it before!
How could *anyone* be familiar with everything Ben wrote! He was
prolific (and without a computer, too! :-)
Seriously, I find that quotes and poems often capture the essence of an
idea, in a form that make it easier to remember (Twinkle twinkle little
star; Power equals I squared R).
Also, great writers can say in a few words what takes me whole
paragraphs. I marvel at how a very compact bit of text can say volumes
about a subject!
> And to really bring this home Lee, he told me he wanted to get
> started (within the next 3-4 months) building him the EV pickup conversion
> that I have been after him for years to do.
Ask John Wayland to tell you about Dick Finley! He inspired several
great EVs, including the Red Beastie and Rocket Renault.
> If someone made a random tagline plug-in for OE, would probably
> sell well.
In the "gool ol' days", the signature was kept in a little file like
SIGNATUR.DOC on disk. The email program just appended it each time you
sent an email. Now that I think about it, the Netscape 3.0 does it this
way, too. I can write a little .BAT file that on startup will select one
of several! I'll give it a try. If you start seeing different signature
lines from me, you'll know it works!
--
If you would not be forgotten
Soon as you are dead and rotten
Either write things worth the reading
Or do deeds worthy of the writing
-- Ben Franklin, from Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
This is perhaps a difference in philosophy. Looking at the photos, getting
only a bruised thumb seems possible but unlikely. He states in his captions
that significant damage was done to the bike from his body hitting and
deforming things. In another accident, with a different rider, those
impacts could easily cause far more injury.
Royce specifically designed those areas to deform under impact to
minimize injury. They worked exactly as intended.
If you accept impact between
the passenger and the vehicle "interior", you need to start looking at
things like a car designer. One has to wonder if it makes sense to equip
the rider with a seat belt, shoulder harness and roll bar. Why not just
drive a car?
Potentially better efficiency, congestion reduction, fun, ...
Granted if you get thrown from your standard motorcycle and hit something
hard, you're in for a world of hurt. But you'd be amazed how infrequently
that happens. I rode for many years, crashed many times and never hit
anything. Not only that, but on a standard motorcycle your first instinct
is to get away from the bike in a crash. With a FF, you're wearing it. No
rider wants to get pinned and dragged by his bike. That's far more likely
on a FF.
According to European accident statistics (where they drive a whole
lot more bikes than here), head injury is the number one cause of
death with severe leg trauma being number two. Severe head injuries
are less likely when you are still in the vehicle, as the structure
of the bike can take most of the initial impacts. The chances of the
machine flipping totally over and landing on it's top are pretty
slim. Most of the time it's going to be an impact from one side or
another. As long as you have deformable structure there, you are
safer than if you were naked. When you're thrown from the machine,
ain't nothing stopping you but you.
As to being dragged, this is relatively easy to make decently safe.
You build rigid foot-boxes to protect the feet and lower legs, you
make sure the bodywork extends farther than the body of the rider,
and you make the widest part of the body sit higher than the Cg of
the vehicle. When you slide, you're sliding on bodywork rather than
body parts. If you put something higher-friction than the rest of the
bodywork at the upper contact points, the vehicle will tend to slide
keel first, as well. As one of the FF'ers put it once, you hunker
down and wait for the crunching to stop. On a high-Cg standard
motorcycle, it's difficult to make them wide enough high enough to
have this work, but on FFs it's pretty easy. The Voyager, the Quasar
and many of the others are built this way and multiple accidents in
them with extremely low injury rates and no fatalities yet show the
likely validity of the concepts.
Again, it's a difference in philosophy. No one gets to pick their
accidents. We each need to evaluate our approach for ourselves.
We don't get to pick our accidents, but we do get to pick our safety
equipment.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was not considering COG but to keep the weight low. My experience with
sail boats and toys that stand up by themselves is you almost never have to
pick up a clown punching bag. The sand in the bottom always rights it.
Sail boats have their center of gravity under the water line. IF you could
put the batteries under the road you would hardly have to balance the thing.
Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
This thread is admittedly pretty esoteric. We are, however, talking about
a
specific EV being built, so I'll give this one more whack.
Paul Compton wrote:
> If you try to balance a garden rake vertically on your
fingertip, it's
> easier when the rake head is on top. That means a high center of
> gravity is *more stable*.
Think about this for a second. A top heavy object is always
less stable than
a bottom heavy object. In your example, it's easier to
balance because with
a top heavy object the CofG has more lateral movement. This
gives more
feedback, which makes it easier to balance; for the person doing the
balancing.
> OTOH, you need to move the position of your
> finger farther on each correction to maintain balance.
Translated to
> a motorcycle, this makes it feel kind of darty, and since you're
> leaned over while this is going on, these motions tend to lift the
> wheel off the pavement. Not a good solution in practice.
Here you seem to be saying that a high CofG is a bad thing?
OK, I could have been a little more clear. This demonstrates how
critically
important it is to be specific in our definitions. We've all been a
little
lax. We're talking about a two-wheel vehicle, which is inherently
*unstable*. That is, if you leave it alone, it falls over. So when we
stay
"stability" we actually mean "the ease with which active stability control
can be achieved".
Back to the garden rake. Actually, let's use a different tool, one that
demonstrates the effect more clearly (shorter, more weight concentration).
Let's use a hammer. With the head on top, balancing it on your finger can
be done fairly easily. You can even be a little sloppy, taking your time
with corrections, overshooting, and still keep it vertical. Turn it over
and it's much more challenging. Your corrections must be much more rapid
and extremely precise. Maintaining stability has become more difficult.
A
top heavy object is less stable only if it is *at rest*. A motorcycle is
not - it requires motion to remain upright.
This also demonstrates one of the first tradeoffs in designing a two wheel
vehicle. Using the contact patches to keep it vertical means they have to
move around a lot if the cg is high, which is not acceptable on a road
vehicle. There is some height that is high enough for ease of balance,
but
low enough that the corrections are manageable. And of course that
optimum
depends on lots of other things like rake, trail, wheelbase, total weight,
speed, etc. We must think in terms of tradeoffs, not maximizing any
characteristic.
> The other thing to consider is that leaning into a turn or making
> corrections in a turn requires you to roll (as in pitch/roll/yaw).
> It's a rotation that wants to be centered on the cg and is
made much
> easier with a low polar moment. Get your cg too low and the polar
> moment increases too much because the rider didn't move. And the
> whole bike/rider combination has to move in a big arc
around the cg.
> It makes the bike feel ponderous and sluggish, as if everything was
> pivoting around the contact patches.
With a bike at rest and off it's stands, try leaning it over;
It rolled
around its contact patches. Whilst the mass 'wants' to roll
around it's roll
CofG the forces to generate that roll come from the contact
patches. When
riding those contact patches can be deflected sideways and
the roll axis
will be closer to the roll CofG. The height of the roll axis
is therefore
dependent on the rate of roll, but is close to the contact patches.
Which demonstrates yet another complication to all this armchair
theorizing.
With a two wheel vehicle, you can't say a certain characteristic will
cause
X. As you show above, it can do X just tootling around town and Y when
you
have to escape some kamikaze's cross-hairs. And trust me, you can get a
roll motion centered a good deal away from the contact patches if you're
in
the mood.
>>"My long-standing assertion that a high CG can result in
wheels coming
>>off the ground during rapid direction changes has produced
some quite
>>agitated dissent."
> Indeed, and with good reason. I side with the dissenters.
Do you never watch bike racing? It's very common to see one
or both wheels
come off the ground in a chicane. Twist And Go magazine took
a Yamaha T-Max
superscooter (500cc twin 44bhp) to the race school at Rockingham
International Raceway. The T-Max proved itself more than a
match for any of
the superbikes there around the tight infield race-school course.
Occasionally an R1 or CBR600 would get past on the longest
straight, but the
superior braking performance would get it into turn one first and its
superior turning ability would stretch that advantage
slightly through the
rest of the course.
We have several points of view offering contradicting advice, all based on
practical experience. I think everyone is doing their best to offer good
advice, but we still can't agree. Maybe there's a unifying concept that
brings it all together: my offhand comment that lowering cg *and* reducing
polar moment together is what makes it work.
We have evidence that taking a standard motorcycle and doing *nothing* but
lowering the cg makes it handle worse. Makes sense, because doing so puts
more distance between the hardware cg and the rider, *increasing* the
polar
moment around the roll axis (to the degree that the rider's weight can be
included with the vehicle's).
We also have evidence that a FF can be wickedly fast in turns. The reason
offered is the lower cg, but almost all FFs I've seen also have a lower
polar moment relative to a standard motorcycle. To my mind, a lower cg
*and* polar moment together, assuming no other changes, might make the
vehicle too twitchy - all too willing to execute roll motions. But FFs
also
tend to have longer wheelbases than standard motorcycles, which slows
these
tendencies down. I'll bet the rake and trail settings for a FF are
different as well. I'm thinking it's the combination of effects. Not
just
low cg.
> For example, the author we're reviewing here boldly dared
any employee
> of
> a
> motorcycle manufacturer to rebut what he had proposed. One
did, and
> rather
> effectively. To which the author responded, "Which I feel it's
> unnecessary
> to reply to."
I have some issues with Royce's descriptions, but not his basic
understanding and Arnold Wagner's response has it's own
problems. Motor
vehicle suspension is usually critically damped, if not stiffer, so
unloading the suspension wouldn't launch the vehicle.
Oh. You're right, I missed that the first time. Damping has nothing to
do
with a high side. The suspension is not what launches you, it's the fact
that you're sliding sideways and suddenly regaining traction, sending the
cg
over the contact patches. Again, a low cg and low polar moment would seem
to make this even more dicey for a FF, but the long wheelbase counteracts
the effect.
What Lawrence should do is highly dependent on what his goals are. (Isn't
it always? ;^) If he wants to further the research into the effects of a
low cg on two wheel vehicle dynamics, by all means build a FFEV with the
batteries as low as possible. But understand that the resulting vehicle
might be a good example of what doesn't work.
More likely, this is to be a daily driver. In that case, I would try very
hard to match the cg height, polar moment, wheelbase and F/R weight
distribution of typical ICE FFs. That way all of the collected knowledge
from the FF crowd will have genuine application to the project. There
will
be much less likelihood of any surprises. The more you deviate from an
ICE
FF, the more risk you take.
Also keep in mind that some disadvantages of FFs have not been discussed.
The very low frontal area and relative ease of creating a very aero
package
comes at the expense of not having your head high in traffic. You can't
see
or be seen as well. What I find most unsettling is that with an FF you
are
definitely "in" the vehicle, not on it. In a frontal collision you are,
and
will remain, *with* the vehicle. I for one will not chose to be tangled
up
in hardware.
Most riders don't think about crashes except as rare and painful
experiences
to avoid. They think that once you're in one, your fate is sealed. Not
so.
Racers see crashes as a fairly "normal" occurrence, and are aware that you
can have a surprising amount of control over what happens during one.
Like
getting yourself away from it, by clearing the bike before impact. You
can't do that on a FF. You're along for the ride (and the impact),
whether
you like it or not. (Oof. It hurts just to think about it.)
OK, I know most of you think I'm nuts at this point. I also know that
Mike
Reish knows exactly what I'm talking about (poke, poke ;^).
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings!
Steve
I have an inferiority complex, but its not as good as yours.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I ran across a good book with all kinds of formulas and stuff called
"Motorcycle design and technology" at the local Barnes and Noble, or was
it Borders?
Anyhow, author : Gaetano Cocco, ISBN 0-7603-1990-1 from .motorbooks
International (www.motorbooks.com)
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those of you who actually have gotten your hands on Nicads, a couple of
questions:
Where did you get your batteries?
Are there more available from your source?
What kind are they? Were they new or used?
Would buy them again from the same source?
Any other hints or tips for a prospective Nicad purchaser?
Nick Aronoff
'92 Chevy s-10 (5 year old floodies that are showing their age)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The choppers I've been seeing a lot of here in
Kalifornia have set of foot pegs forward of the engine
with a low seat, and plow handlebars that are pulled
to the rear or the tank. the passenger leans back
against the sissy bar and the driver leans against the
passenger as well as the hump in the seat. they are
very much feet forward.
Gadget
--- Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 9:44 PM -0800 on 1/23/05, Reverend Gadget wrote:
>
> >Have you stepped back to notice that choppers look
> >more like a feet forward design (feet forward, low
> cg,
> >low seat, semi recumbant position, and a long
> >wheelbase) than a regular bike? all the bike needs
> is
> >a fairing.
>
> And a seat back. And probably a secondary steering
> head. Every
> extreme chopper I've ever seen has the rider hunched
> way over to
> reach the bars way out in front. (Ghawd, that's
> gotta hurt to ride!).
> Part of the point of the FF layout is to reduce
> stress on the upper
> body and increase rider comfort. According to the
> guys who've built
> FFs, the seat back locating the rider helps both the
> ergonomics and
> the safety (you stay inside the vehicle in a crash
> rather than flying
> through the air).
> --
>
>
> Auf wiedersehen!
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
> "..Um..Something strange happened to me this
> morning."
>
> "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing
> in sort
> of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
> naked
> women screaming and throwing little pickles at
> you?"
>
> "..No."
>
> "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
>
> -Real Genius
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Few more photos of this Carl's bike:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn1425.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn1427.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn1433.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn1432.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn1424.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn1430.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn1429.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn1428.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/dscn1426.jpg
Carl has purchased an AC system (along with
110 50Ah TS LiIOn cells) for his next motorcycle
more than a year ago. I don't know the status of
that project.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
On Sun, 2005-01-23 at 13:36 -0800, Ken Trough wrote:
Personally, I'd rather see a real custom chopper builder do a totally
custom EV cycle. I'd want to see a custom designed frame so that the
batteries and motor are mounted asthetically. I'd like to see complete
fabrication from stem to stern on a public EV motorcycle build like this
one.
You mean like:
http://www.vogelbilt.com/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/392.html
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/415.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder why one has to go through the trouble to glue a
magnet into a flywheel if he can simply just magnetize a
portion of the ring itself? That is, of course, if you
retain the ring.
If not - in theory any non-aluminum rotating part
(like pressure plate edge) can be magnetized enough to
use magnetic pick up. No changes to the flywheel, no dangers of
something falling off at high speed...
Victor
brian baumel wrote:
this sounds like the best option. I can just use the
teeth on the flywheel rather than taking the
controller, motor and then the fly wheel off to drill
holes for magnets. I believe I may already have a hall
effect sensor laying around somewhere. thank you for
your input!
BCB
--- Philip Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Melaxis makes a "Hall efffect cam sensor"
specifically for automotive use.
Details at :
http://www.melexis.com/prodmain.asp?Family=MLX90217
Digi-key sells them for $6.54 each. I just ordered
one - don't have it yet.
It's a TO-92 flat package.
It does require a small fixed magnet behind the
sensor, but should be easy
to mount and use. I plan to machine two notches at
the rim of the
flywheel. It will also work off of gear teeth ( my
ring gear is gone)
I'll use an LM 231 to convert the pulse train to a
linear voltage, and a LM
3914 display driver to drive a 10 LED vertical
display. ( with a red LED at
6000RPM). The ICE car didn't have a tach.
All three chips work off a single-sided 12-14 V
supply ( aux 12 V) so that's
easy.
Phil (still working on the Echo) Marino
Rochester, NY
From: James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Flywheel clocking
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 15:56:11 +1100
At 05:55 PM 23/01/05 -0800, you wrote:
does anyone have opinions on using either an
optical
or magnetic sensor for clocking a flywheel? I have
an
optical setup almost complete but am having second
thoughts. the bell housing is pretty much sealed.
am I
over looking something that may cause a problem in
the
future? does anyone have a suggestion of the best
adhesive to attach the mirror or magnet to the fly
wheel? I'm currently think of using JBweld.....
Thanks,
BCB
Hi Brian (and all)
What the [EMAIL PROTECTED] is all this about magnets and gluing
bits on that people
keep bringing up. Have your flywheel machined with
some slots in it, buy an
industrial proximity switch and hook it up.
Rally cars use them to count the inside ends of
wheelstuds, they can take
the speed and the hammering from that. High
pressure immersion, fully
sealed.
They put out full voltage pulses, no amplifiers
needed.
You can easily get aluminium detecting units (like
I have) if you are going
clutchless with an aluminium adaptor. Mine is a
normal steel type that
works with aluminium at half the distance.
There are dozens of manufacturers, Omron,
Allen-Bradley, Peperl and Fuchs,
Sick and many more. The only reason NOT to use one
if you are using an
unmodified flywheel and are counting the ring gear
teeth, since the target
minimum width and space minimum width come into it.
I admit I'm biased - working with industrial
equipment on a daily basis
makes me expect reliability, simplicity and ease of
use on things that I
get to specify. You can do it cheaper, depending on
what your time is
worth, or if you are willing to compromise on
potential reliability.
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use white rigid tubing found in Home Depot's. It is flexible
enough to bend in a few cm radiuses. Similar to one used to link
water supply pipes to a sink valves.
Side effect - the entire volume of the tube from the front to
the back (where my pump is) serves as vac. booster tank :-)
Soft tubing will shrink under vacuum and in the places where bent,
may collapce cutting off air flow.
Victor
Don Cameron wrote:
I just tested my vacuum system yesterday it works great, but the vacuum pump
cycles too long. I am pretty sure the vacuum pump is having to work harder,
because I am using heater hose to connect from the pump (in the back of the
car) up to the brake booster and it collapses a little bit. Can anyone
suggest a more rigid hose that will not collapse? Maybe a hose that I can
heat bend to form it around corners?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, bad idea. You want to mount it as far from you as
you can to hear it as little as possible.
If you mount it near and mount on the firewall, it will
roar right in your face.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
All good pipe solutions indeed but-
I know this may sound obvious but just mount the vacuum nearer the reservoir!! There's always a way.
Steve
richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
hi
if you need to reduce compression under vacuum to a
minimum use copper pipe with a few inches of hose at
either end
cheap and easy to bend pipe like central heating
microbore 10mm would work fine (i've done this before)
use a plumbers former type pipe bender to make bends
or the install will look dreadful (bent mine first by
hand without formers and it looked like it was fitted
by a 16 yr old aprentice plumber)
if you can get the ends swaged do so but the one i did
stayed on for years with just good jubilee clips
regards
richard
--- Bruce Weisenberger
wrote:
PFA Teflon line resists elements, chemical resistant
and will not collapse with the minor vacuum your
pulling. And it comes in a variety of sizes. IF you
are running from rear of car to brake booster I
recommend at least a 1/2" O.D. It can be heated with
a
heat gun to form around corners. But it is flexible
enough not to need to be formed. Just tie wrap it in
place. I use it at work for virtually everything
from
Vacuum, Nitrogen, Sulfuric Chemical flow and heated
solvents 100 degree C flow.
The other though would be Copper or Stainless Steel
but they would be harder and heavier to work with.
But
they can be bent without heat as well. Avoid Polypro
or plain plastic tubing as the element will attack
the
material.
--- Don Cameron wrote:
I just tested my vacuum system yesterday it works
great, but the vacuum pump
cycles too long. I am pretty sure the vacuum pump
is
having to work harder,
because I am using heater hose to connect from the
pump (in the back of the
car) up to the brake booster and it collapses a
little bit. Can anyone
suggest a more rigid hose that will not collapse?
Maybe a hose that I can
heat bend to form it around corners?
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence and All,
Maybe I can help here.
A motorcycle turns by having the wheels
shift below the CG to turn by setting up the lean.
Lets make a turn, first you turn the
opposite way you want to go called countersteer, which
moves the wheels to the outside of the turn, then you
turn into the turn to keep from leaning too far but
you lean more as you take a sharper or faster turn,
matching the centrifical force for the turn, speed you
want.
To come out of the turn, you turn into it
thus forcing the bike back upright. This sounds
strange as you don't notice it as it has become
habit!!
Now when you have a low CG, this couple is
shorter making it feel strange, but not really bad,
just different. And you quickly get use to it. And you
would depend more on upper body english to start a
turn, not much, just moving your shoulders some, it
doesn't take much, 4" to 6" to do the same thing
countersteer does and how you ride without your hands
on the handle bars. If you need to turn real quick,
you can countersteer.
In low Cg, I wouldn't say it's better than a
reg CG bike, probably not quite as good but real close
and the benefits of great aero, comfort is worth it.
You don't have to have a low CG though as all you need
to do is put some of the batts where the gas tank use
to be or behind you, giving normal feel with the
benefits of a FF bike.
I like the idea of a full body including
doors so if you go down you can stay with it and the
body frame takes the beating and the doors, made of
kevlar, take the scraping instead of your body. I'd
use a seat belt in this type. The low CG would make
it much easier to pick back up if it falls over.
By being light, aero with low frontal area
you can easily get 100 mile range at 70 mph on lead
batts though with as small batt pack as you would
need, even pricey batts like ni-cad, li-ions would be
practical at a reasonable costs.
And a reasonable cost fast batt charger could
charge at the rate of 30-40 mph from a 120vac outlet
giving you about 200mile per day range easily with a
100 mile lead batt pack, double that with li-ion or
ni-cads!!!
Just got a Honda Elite 250 and debating on
using it for my E trike to replace it's present front
end that shimmies at 25mph so it can go 50 mph, thus
be able to title it as a motorcycle which takes at
least 40 mph, on it's golf cart transaxle or build a
FF E bike.
This E trike is the most reliable EV I've had,
just charge and go!! I love GC transaxles!!! No chain,
mating hassles and goes and goes with brakes included.
Just double it's voltage to 72vdc and fit 13-14" car
tires and your ready for 50 mph!! Pulls nice wheelies
too and has a pickup bed!!
HTH's,
jerry dycus
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was not considering COG but to keep the weight
> low. My experience with
> sail boats and toys that stand up by themselves is
> you almost never have to
> pick up a clown punching bag. The sand in the
> bottom always rights it.
> Sail boats have their center of gravity under the
> water line. IF you could
> put the batteries under the road you would hardly
> have to balance the thing.
> Lawrence Rhodes........
> ----- Original Message -----
__________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
>On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 07:19:52 -0800, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I just tested my vacuum system yesterday it works great, but the vacuum pump
>> cycles too long. I am pretty sure the vacuum pump is having to work harder,
>> because I am using heater hose to connect from the pump (in the back of the
>> car) up to the brake booster and it collapses a little bit. Can anyone
>> suggest a more rigid hose that will not collapse? Maybe a hose that I can
>> heat bend to form it around corners?
Sure. Automotive brake booster hose. Available from any auto parts
store.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is OT, since this vehicle is a hybrid, but with all the Feet-First
discussion going on I thought that some people would be interested in
this concept, which is FF and has 3 wheel-motors:
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/concept-cars/thrice-bitten-aprilias-threewheeler-concept-030903.php
--
Paul Wujek
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 3:16 PM -0800 on 1/24/05, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
I was not considering COG but to keep the weight low. My experience
with sail boats and toys that stand up by themselves is you almost
never have to pick up a clown punching bag. The sand in the bottom
always rights it. Sail boats have their center of gravity under the
water line. IF you could put the batteries under the road you would
hardly have to balance the thing. Lawrence
This works on objects with a wide base (base radius larger than the
Cg height). It doesn't necessarily work with other objects. Powered
two-wheelers have a very narrow base (essentially a line).
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 4:10 PM -0800 on 1/24/05, Reverend Gadget wrote:
The choppers I've been seeing a lot of here in
Kalifornia have set of foot pegs forward of the engine
with a low seat, and plow handlebars that are pulled
to the rear or the tank. the passenger leans back
against the sissy bar and the driver leans against the
passenger as well as the hump in the seat. they are
very much feet forward.
I'm sure you see them more than I do, and I hardly claim to be a
chopper expert or even a fan, so I'm sure you're quite correct. The
tiller-style handlebars introduce their own problems, however. And
what do you do if you don't have a passenger?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It looks like it is also available on a couple of eBay stores for $17~18.
Here is one store that has 12 copies:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4517587639
--
Shawn M. Waggoner
Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
http://www.floridaeaa.org
Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 6:47 PM
To: EVlist
Subject: motorcycle stability
I ran across a good book with all kinds of formulas and stuff called
"Motorcycle design and technology" at the local Barnes and Noble, or was
it Borders?
Anyhow, author : Gaetano Cocco, ISBN 0-7603-1990-1 from .motorbooks
International (www.motorbooks.com)
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are a lot of different opinions out there. And I thank all those who
responded.
Looks like most people think that parallel strings are probably okay. There
are diverse opinions on whether or not buddy pairing would be okay. I can go
with parallel strings instead of buddy pairs, although separating the
strings when not in use, as suggested, will require an extra contactor.
New Question:
The draw on my current lead acid pack is 350 amps peak and maybe about 100
amps average. I anticipate the current on an individual BB600 to be about
150 amps peak (at a slightly higher voltage).
I hope a 150 amps is a reasonable short-term draw from a BB600. If I
elected to pull all the current from one string (300 amps) - would that be
okay?
Thanks
Jerald
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are right. But this does give you an idea what works.
Seth
On Jan 24, 2005, at 1:29 PM, Mark Hanson wrote:
Ah, but their not buddy pairs, two complete strings in parallel.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:54 AM
Subject: Re: nicad question
You better tell Solectria not to parallel them because those early
(wet) NiCad Forces that are still running after 10 years that way. So
someone hurry and tell them that they did it wrong ;-)
2 40Ah strings in parallel. Still running at UMass last I heard,
that
was 2003 but they were 1993(ish) cars.
Seth
On Jan 23, 2005, at 11:50 PM, Joe Smalley wrote:
If there is a reason to not charge "flooded" NiCads in parallel,
please let
me know.
The reason that cylindrical NiCads can't be recharged in parallel
does
not
apply to flooded cells because the behave differently at end of
charge.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: nicad question
<< Does anyone know if there are any problems with buddy pairing
flooded
nicads
like the bb600? >>
You don't want to charge nicads in parallel, but supposedly you can
discharge
them that way.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've recently had a though about this.
What if you buy a AVCON to 14-50 adapter kit, and mount the Magnecharger and
this adapter to a board. Now you have a portable Magnecharger.
With this setup you could have a mobile charger that would allow you to charge
at an AVCON, Magnecharger, or standard conductive socket depending on what's
available.
Would this work?
On Sun, Jan 23, 2005 at 04:52:14PM -0800, Alan Batie wrote:
> I'm curious if the PFC-30 could replace the magnecharger in the S10 EV's,
> or if at the very least, you can chop off the paddle and replace it with a
> plug of the appropriate type? If I have to use the magnecharger, the only
> place I'd be able to charge it would be at home.
> * LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Its best to used a oil free whisper-quiet vacuum pump, that has Harmonic
Dual Phase Noise Reduction.
The oil type I had at one time, made a popping noise. It was the same type
used for Sign Machines that is use for applying decals.
It was a rotary vane type, where 4 brushes would sweep a oblong chamber.
When the brush comes across the input air port, it made a sucking sound.
I now using one that is for a 2004-2002 GMC Yukon or in GM's Hybrid Sierra
1500 Pickup.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: Hose for vacuum system
> Sorry, bad idea. You want to mount it as far from you as
> you can to hear it as little as possible.
>
> If you mount it near and mount on the firewall, it will
> roar right in your face.
>
> Victor
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > All good pipe solutions indeed but-
> >
> > I know this may sound obvious but just mount the vacuum nearer the
> > reservoir!! There's always a way.
> >
> > Steve
> >
> > richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > hi
> > if you need to reduce compression under vacuum to a
> > minimum use copper pipe with a few inches of hose at
> > either end
> > cheap and easy to bend pipe like central heating
> > microbore 10mm would work fine (i've done this before)
> > use a plumbers former type pipe bender to make bends
> > or the install will look dreadful (bent mine first by
> > hand without formers and it looked like it was fitted
> > by a 16 yr old aprentice plumber)
> > if you can get the ends swaged do so but the one i did
> > stayed on for years with just good jubilee clips
> >
> > regards
> > richard
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Bruce Weisenberger
> > wrote:
> >
> >>PFA Teflon line resists elements, chemical resistant
> >>and will not collapse with the minor vacuum your
> >>pulling. And it comes in a variety of sizes. IF you
> >>are running from rear of car to brake booster I
> >>recommend at least a 1/2" O.D. It can be heated with
> >>a
> >>heat gun to form around corners. But it is flexible
> >>enough not to need to be formed. Just tie wrap it in
> >>place. I use it at work for virtually everything
> >>from
> >>Vacuum, Nitrogen, Sulfuric Chemical flow and heated
> >>solvents 100 degree C flow.
> >>The other though would be Copper or Stainless Steel
> >>but they would be harder and heavier to work with.
> >>But
> >>they can be bent without heat as well. Avoid Polypro
> >>or plain plastic tubing as the element will attack
> >>the
> >>material.
> >>
> >>
> >>--- Don Cameron wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I just tested my vacuum system yesterday it works
> >>>great, but the vacuum pump
> >>>cycles too long. I am pretty sure the vacuum pump
> >>
> >>is
> >>
> >>>having to work harder,
> >>>because I am using heater hose to connect from the
> >>>pump (in the back of the
> >>>car) up to the brake booster and it collapses a
> >>>little bit. Can anyone
> >>>suggest a more rigid hose that will not collapse?
> >>>Maybe a hose that I can
> >>>heat bend to form it around corners?
> >>>
> >>>thanks
> >>>Don
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Victoria, BC, Canada
> >>>
> >>>See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> >>>www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>__________________________________
> >>Do you Yahoo!?
> >>Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
> >>
> >>http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___________________________________________________________
> > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
> > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
