EV Digest 4055
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV digest 4054
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) MagneCharger Replacing
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Flywheel clocking - Melaxis sensor from Digi-key
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: nicad question
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: motorcycle stability
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EV Awareness
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: nicad question - new question
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: nicad question
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: nicad question
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV Awareness
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Hose for vacuum system
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV Awareness
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Flywheel clocking - Melaxis sensor from Digi-key
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Hose for vacuum system
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: New recumbent motorcycle.
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: [ThunderSky] Re: Battery Size's
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV Awareness
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV Awareness
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV Awareness
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV Awareness
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Any news or updates?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EVLN(Victory for Dave & Heather Bernikoff-Raboy and Bill Korthof)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
I've recently had a though about this.
What if you buy a AVCON to 14-50 adapter kit, and mount the Magnecharger and
this adapter to a board. Now you have a portable Magnecharger.
It's something I've been thinking about too, especially since the vehicle I'm
planning on getting is a pickup and would have plenty of room for it.
Though I was sort of hoping to use a PFC-30 for getting a faster than normal
charge. Oh well, I can do that when I have the time, place and money to build
my own...
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Go here. Hit "chargers" button. This man loves his toys:
www.darelldd.com/ev
Marv
> From: Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2005 20:43:33 -0800
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Magnecharger replacing
>
> I've recently had a though about this.
>
> What if you buy a AVCON to 14-50 adapter kit, and mount the Magnecharger and
> this adapter to a board. Now you have a portable Magnecharger.
>
> With this setup you could have a mobile charger that would allow you to charge
> at an AVCON, Magnecharger, or standard conductive socket depending on what's
> available.
>
> Would this work?
>
> On Sun, Jan 23, 2005 at 04:52:14PM -0800, Alan Batie wrote:
>> I'm curious if the PFC-30 could replace the magnecharger in the S10 EV's,
>> or if at the very least, you can chop off the paddle and replace it with a
>> plug of the appropriate type? If I have to use the magnecharger, the only
>> place I'd be able to charge it would be at home.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> I wonder why one has to go through the trouble to glue a
> magnet into a flywheel if he can simply just magnetize a
> portion of the ring itself? That is, of course, if you
> retain the ring.
It's hard to magnetize the ring and have it *stay* magnetized. They
aren't made of materials good for permanent magnets.
> If not - in theory any non-aluminum rotating part
> (like pressure plate edge) can be magnetized enough to
> use magnetic pick up. No changes to the flywheel, no dangers of
> something falling off at high speed...
Maybe what he wants is a "variable reluctance" type of sensor. They are
very simple to set up because both the sensing coil and the magnet are
in the same device.
Basically, it is a coil of wire wound over a magnet. You position it
near a ferrous (or sometimes non-ferrous) gear or cam lobe or whatever.
As the metal passes nearer/farther away from the magnet, the flux
increases/decreases. This induces an AC voltage in the coil. This
voltage is amplified and used for your pulse detector etc.
Non-ferrous materials that are good conductors (like copper or aluminum)
can also be detected. As they move nearer/farther from the sensor, eddy
currents are generated by the magnetic field cutting through. This in
turn induces a smaller, but sometimes still usable signal in the coil.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth;
I believe that it is OK to do flooded cells in parallel but not cylindrical
cells.
Did I get that point across or did I misscommuncate again?
I hate typing when I'm tired. I make too many mistakes.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: nicad question
> You better tell Solectria not to parallel them because those early
> (wet) NiCad Forces that are still running after 10 years that way. So
> someone hurry and tell them that they did it wrong ;-)
>
> 2 40Ah strings in parallel. Still running at UMass last I heard, that
> was 2003 but they were 1993(ish) cars.
>
> Seth
>
>
> On Jan 23, 2005, at 11:50 PM, Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> > If there is a reason to not charge "flooded" NiCads in parallel,
> > please let
> > me know.
> >
> > The reason that cylindrical NiCads can't be recharged in parallel does
> > not
> > apply to flooded cells because the behave differently at end of charge.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:25 PM
> > Subject: Re: nicad question
> >
> >
> >> << Does anyone know if there are any problems with buddy pairing
> >> flooded
> > nicads
> >> like the bb600? >>
> >>
> >> You don't want to charge nicads in parallel, but supposedly you can
> > discharge
> >> them that way.
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe Michael Moore on the mc-chassis-design list sells the mc chassis
book by Tony Foale. Might have some others. Hes a good guy, would highly
recommend doing business with him. If you are interested in mc frame design
and fabrication you might like to check out MMs
http://www.eurospares.com/frame.htm . I would also recommend you check out
his awesome motorcycle technology and history site.
http://www.eurospares.com/index.htm and don't miss the "other topics and
links" hyperlink. And of course you could always join the MC-Chassis-Design
list to brainstorm with others on this subject. Lotta nice guys. And they
have always shown an open mind for if not outright interested in EVs.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Waggoner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: motorcycle stability
> It looks like it is also available on a couple of eBay stores for $17~18.
> Here is one store that has 12 copies:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4517587639
>
> --
> Shawn M. Waggoner
> Florida Electric Auto Assoc.
> http://www.floridaeaa.org
> Custom Honda Electric Motorcycle 72V
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 6:47 PM
> To: EVlist
> Subject: motorcycle stability
>
> I ran across a good book with all kinds of formulas and stuff called
> "Motorcycle design and technology" at the local Barnes and Noble, or was
> it Borders?
>
> Anyhow, author : Gaetano Cocco, ISBN 0-7603-1990-1 from .motorbooks
> International (www.motorbooks.com)
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All, My best scooter riding buddy also happens to be my webmaster.
Tonight while having a few drinks and bouncing around ideas while preparing
for an attack on our local city council transportation committee we came up
with a few ideas. They are currently considering an anti electric board
scooter ordinance. We were making handouts and even some in your face anti
patriotic posters that would indicate that you are anti American if you
opposed electric board scooters due to their lack of dependence on foreign
oil. Sorry folks for the slight off topic political mention. Anyway he did a
search on Godaddy.com and found out www.evawareness.com was available. I
immediately snatched it up. We are going to put up a free access site with
downloadable bumper stickers and documents promoting EV Awareness. I will
post an address for submissions. We will of course give you credit for your
creativity. I'm envisioning a site with some stuff that certain people may
find offensive but, heh, you don't have to download it and print it. We want
a free site for expression. My personal belief is that sometimes our society
calls for some real in your face stuff to wake it up. That is why I love
wheel stands so much!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
"All obstacles in life are the gift of a challenge and should be honored as
such"
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got this from a Marathon technician:
Lawrence,
I think that you should understand a little more about what you have on your
hands. These are not a typical nickel cadmium cell. They are manufactured to
perform in very extreme environments as found on tactical (fighter)
aircraft. They are designed to put out 1,000 to 1,800 amps per cell. The
list price for these cells is $466 each. From your response I can see that
you have done some research on basic, low cost, low quality, low drain,
battery systems - these are not in that category.
The rate at which the conversions take place is primarily determined by the
external resistance (load)
introduced into the circuit in which the cell is connected. Due to its
construction, the Marathon cell has an
extremely low internal resistance, and its ability to deliver high currents
is due to this factor.
1.14 Liquid level - Do not add water to a battery except near the end of a
constant
current charge. Some exceptions may be noted later.
Addition of water, except at the proper time during the charge will cause
spewing of electrolyte to take
place during the subsequent charge. Marathon batteries are shipped with the
proper amounts of
electrolyte. When a battery has been discharged or allowed to stand for a
long period of time, the
electrolyte becomes absorbed into the plates. Since the battery has been
shipped in a discharged
condition, the liquid level of the cells may appear to be low. Charging the
battery will cause the liquid
level of the individual cells to rise to the proper operating level. If this
does not happen, add sufficient
distilled or demineralized water (using the proper syringe and nozzle) to
the cells during the last 15
minutes of the topping charge, until the correct liquid level is reached.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dodson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 7:57 PM
Subject: RE: nicad question - new question
There are a lot of different opinions out there. And I thank all those
who
responded.
Looks like most people think that parallel strings are probably okay.
There
are diverse opinions on whether or not buddy pairing would be okay. I can
go
with parallel strings instead of buddy pairs, although separating the
strings when not in use, as suggested, will require an extra contactor.
New Question:
The draw on my current lead acid pack is 350 amps peak and maybe about 100
amps average. I anticipate the current on an individual BB600 to be about
150 amps peak (at a slightly higher voltage).
I hope a 150 amps is a reasonable short-term draw from a BB600. If I
elected to pull all the current from one string (300 amps) - would that be
okay?
Thanks
Jerald
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, it was a joke that only I got. I was aware that wet nicads had
been paralleled. The fact that there had been cars running ten years
like this was evidence. My point was that people say it can't be done,
have no idea why, but repeat it, even when there are examples to the
contrary.
Perhaps I needed some emoticons to make it an obvious joke.
Looks like I flunked this weeks listserv etiquette quiz :)
Seth Allen
On Jan 25, 2005, at 1:33 AM, Joe Smalley wrote:
Seth;
I believe that it is OK to do flooded cells in parallel but not
cylindrical
cells.
Did I get that point across or did I misscommuncate again?
I hate typing when I'm tired. I make too many mistakes.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 4:54 AM
Subject: Re: nicad question
You better tell Solectria not to parallel them because those early
(wet) NiCad Forces that are still running after 10 years that way. So
someone hurry and tell them that they did it wrong ;-)
2 40Ah strings in parallel. Still running at UMass last I heard,
that
was 2003 but they were 1993(ish) cars.
Seth
On Jan 23, 2005, at 11:50 PM, Joe Smalley wrote:
If there is a reason to not charge "flooded" NiCads in parallel,
please let
me know.
The reason that cylindrical NiCads can't be recharged in parallel
does
not
apply to flooded cells because the behave differently at end of
charge.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2005 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: nicad question
<< Does anyone know if there are any problems with buddy pairing
flooded
nicads
like the bb600? >>
You don't want to charge nicads in parallel, but supposedly you can
discharge
them that way.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Allen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sorry, it was a joke that only I got.
I got it :-) but then I ,from reading the list I new you worked at
Solectria ( i think ) . Let me say I am in ah of any of these EV companys ,
They did it , ! what we talk about , dream about , They did . Not just a few
cars , but many . Is there a web page anywhere telling about all these old
Ev companys ? How many car did Solectria make ? Who can fix them now. Where
are they ,
. My point was that people say it can't be done,
> have no idea why, but repeat it, even when there are examples to the
> contrary.
>
Sounds alot like EV's
SteveClunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod, after your tussle with the city council, tell us what happened.
I'm expecially interested in how they react to being labeled as
anti-American for disagreeing with you.
Why is the Port Townsend council considering an ordinance against
board scooters? Have there been bad accidents in P.T. or are they
reacting to bad news from elsewhere, citizen pressure, or whatever?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: "Jordan Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:21 PM
Subject: EV Awareness
Hi All, My best scooter riding buddy also happens to be my webmaster.
Tonight while having a few drinks and bouncing around ideas while
preparing for an attack on our local city council transportation committee
we came up with a few ideas. They are currently considering an anti
electric board scooter ordinance. We were making handouts and even some in
your face anti patriotic posters that would indicate that you are anti
American if you opposed electric board scooters due to their lack of
dependence on foreign oil. Sorry folks for the slight off topic political
mention. Anyway he did a search on Godaddy.com and found out
www.evawareness.com was available. I immediately snatched it up. We are
going to put up a free access site with downloadable bumper stickers and
documents promoting EV Awareness. I will post an address for submissions.
We will of course give you credit for your creativity. I'm envisioning a
site with some stuff that certain people may find offensive but, heh, you
don't have to download it and print it. We want a free site for
expression. My personal belief is that sometimes our society calls for
some real in your face stuff to wake it up. That is why I love wheel
stands so much!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any likns to it? I'd be curious to compare it to MES-DEA pump.
Victor
Roland Wiench wrote:
Its best to used a oil free whisper-quiet vacuum pump, that has Harmonic
Dual Phase Noise Reduction.
The oil type I had at one time, made a popping noise. It was the same type
used for Sign Machines that is use for applying decals.
It was a rotary vane type, where 4 brushes would sweep a oblong chamber.
When the brush comes across the input air port, it made a sucking sound.
I now using one that is for a 2004-2002 GMC Yukon or in GM's Hybrid Sierra
1500 Pickup.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here, In Great Falls, MT. they tried to install a ordinance to prevent motor
power scooters on the sidewalks and cannot be on the streets.
Over 300 people show up to the city council meeting, and many of the
question put to them were:
You have accepted this business in this city?
Yes.
Does this business pays a city business licease to you?
Yes.
Do you allow this business to sell products and paid property tax?
Yes.
(In Washington, you could add sales tax)
Your motorize vehicle ordinance is too vague. How come you let motorize
wheel chairs on the side walks and allow to cross the street?
Well, there difference and don't go that fast.
How fast is acceptable?
About 8 mph.
How about those motorize scooters that are now replacing the wheel chairs
from the Scooter Stores?
We would allow them.
Than what is the difference between a motorize scooter and a scooter that is
motorize?
Because they are driven by kids that don't have a drivers licease.
A older person or even a very young that is dependent on a handicap power
vehicle, may not have a licease, does that means that cannot drive it?
They can drive it on the sidewalk under 8 mph, but cannot drive it down a
street.
What if the persons has a drivers licease, licease tags for the vehicle,
insurance, lights, seatbelt, and helmet, than can they drive it on the
street.
I don't know. I would have to find out from the city attorney about this.
A friend of mind went to the City council meeting and noted what was
discuss.
I would had ask:
Would it make a diffence what kind of power is used.
What about gasoline?
What about diesel?
What about propane?
What about alcohol?
What about electric?
What about hydrogen?
Why are you then, letting these business selling a product in this city,
that you will not allow the buyer to use it?
Its like a vehicle dealer that is licease by the city, sells a vehicle to a
person who must purchase a licease tags and insurance, but then you say,
sorry, that we got your money, you cannot used it.
We still are driving these power scooters on the side walks, on some streets
where there is no side walks. A underage person does not have to have a
driver licease.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: EV Awareness
> Rod, after your tussle with the city council, tell us what happened.
> I'm expecially interested in how they react to being labeled as
> anti-American for disagreeing with you.
>
> Why is the Port Townsend council considering an ordinance against
> board scooters? Have there been bad accidents in P.T. or are they
> reacting to bad news from elsewhere, citizen pressure, or whatever?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Cc: "Jordan Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:21 PM
> Subject: EV Awareness
>
>
> > Hi All, My best scooter riding buddy also happens to be my webmaster.
> > Tonight while having a few drinks and bouncing around ideas while
> > preparing for an attack on our local city council transportation
> > committee
> > we came up with a few ideas. They are currently considering an anti
> > electric board scooter ordinance. We were making handouts and even some
> > in
> > your face anti patriotic posters that would indicate that you are anti
> > American if you opposed electric board scooters due to their lack of
> > dependence on foreign oil. Sorry folks for the slight off topic
> > political
> > mention. Anyway he did a search on Godaddy.com and found out
> > www.evawareness.com was available. I immediately snatched it up. We are
> > going to put up a free access site with downloadable bumper stickers and
> > documents promoting EV Awareness. I will post an address for
> > submissions.
> > We will of course give you credit for your creativity. I'm envisioning a
> > site with some stuff that certain people may find offensive but, heh,
> > you
> > don't have to download it and print it. We want a free site for
> > expression. My personal belief is that sometimes our society calls for
> > some real in your face stuff to wake it up. That is why I love wheel
> > stands so much!
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah I see. I didn't realize he'd insist on this type, I though
he just needs to monitor the flywheel speed, whatever simple
means work.
In my other life I have used the type of sensor you're
describing, astually to *drive*, not pick up. That was
a turntable project with the ring on the edge, very somilar to
a flywheel. 3 E-cores positioned around the edge with 120'
teeth offset for every core could rotate the table.
I didn't realize back then I've made a miniature version
of 3 phase "variable reluctance" motor! That just was 3 phase
driver "hardware". PLaying with same thing 25 years later.
Who could guess...
Victor
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
I wonder why one has to go through the trouble to glue a
magnet into a flywheel if he can simply just magnetize a
portion of the ring itself? That is, of course, if you
retain the ring.
It's hard to magnetize the ring and have it *stay* magnetized. They
aren't made of materials good for permanent magnets.
If not - in theory any non-aluminum rotating part
(like pressure plate edge) can be magnetized enough to
use magnetic pick up. No changes to the flywheel, no dangers of
something falling off at high speed...
Maybe what he wants is a "variable reluctance" type of sensor. They are
very simple to set up because both the sensing coil and the magnet are
in the same device.
Basically, it is a coil of wire wound over a magnet. You position it
near a ferrous (or sometimes non-ferrous) gear or cam lobe or whatever.
As the metal passes nearer/farther away from the magnet, the flux
increases/decreases. This induces an AC voltage in the coil. This
voltage is amplified and used for your pulse detector etc.
Non-ferrous materials that are good conductors (like copper or aluminum)
can also be detected. As they move nearer/farther from the sensor, eddy
currents are generated by the magnetic field cutting through. This in
turn induces a smaller, but sometimes still usable signal in the coil.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The only links I have to it, is to the GMC auto dealer where I bought it
from. I look at one of these vacuum pumps on one of there engines on how it
mounts.
I ran this vacuum pump of a belt to a bench mounted electric motor I used
for testing and sometimes used for winding coils. It hardly made any noise.
It pull 22 in.hg., So I used it otherwise I would have return it.
This pump is oil free and is quiet as my whisper-quiet cooling fan motors.
It suppose to have a dual baffle chambers that reduces the noise.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: Hose for vacuum system
> Any likns to it? I'd be curious to compare it to MES-DEA pump.
>
> Victor
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Its best to used a oil free whisper-quiet vacuum pump, that has Harmonic
> > Dual Phase Noise Reduction.
> >
> > The oil type I had at one time, made a popping noise. It was the same
> > type
> > used for Sign Machines that is use for applying decals.
> >
> > It was a rotary vane type, where 4 brushes would sweep a oblong chamber.
> > When the brush comes across the input air port, it made a sucking sound.
> >
> > I now using one that is for a 2004-2002 GMC Yukon or in GM's Hybrid
> > Sierra
> > 1500 Pickup.
> >
> > Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I was not considering COG but to keep the weight low. My
> experience with
> sail boats and toys that stand up by themselves is you almost
> never have to
> pick up a clown punching bag. The sand in the bottom always
> rights it.
> Sail boats have their center of gravity under the water line.
> IF you could
> put the batteries under the road you would hardly have to
> balance the thing.
> Lawrence Rhodes........
Hi Lawrence,
Ummm, hopefully I can get my message across by way of analogy. I am an
electrical dunce. I am not so clueless as to ask, "Why do I need two wires
from my batteries to my motor, if the electricity only has to go *to* the
motor? Why would it have to go back?" I do know Ohm's law and what a diode
does. After reading this list, I even know the difference between a
contactor and a relay. But believe me, I am *not* the one you'd want to
design a controller. I still haven't figured out how to add a small handful
of components to a Vicor Batmod to make my DC/DC converter, even after
reading all the Vicor application notes. I'll have to toss my pathetic
attempt and use someone else's schematic, not having a clue why it works and
mine doesn't.
Your statement above puts you well shy of the Ohm's law level in two-wheel
vehicle design. With that level of understanding applied to a design
entirely your own, you will probably be able to make something that will
move on its own without immediately throwing you off - with a fair amount of
luck, or after several attempts, or both. The extent to which you follow
the advice of experts, and the degree to which that advice applies
specifically to *your* vehicle, will dictate how much better than "not
throwing you off" your vehicle becomes.
I know that sounds harsh, but I really don't mean to discourage you. I
commend you for having the guts to consider a project like this. It will be
a big undertaking, and I want it to turn out well. The fact is you clearly
don't know what you don't know. The good news is that you can learn. Get
Tony Foale's books (both, if you can find the first) and/or others on the
fundamentals of motorcycle design. Read what you can on FFs. Don't even
think about your EV until you feel comfortable with everything you've
learned. It's my honest opinion that this will cause you a relatively small
delay in the project that will pay for itself many times over.
I'm thinking you'll get monotrack vehicle dynamics much quicker than it
would take me to get controller design. ;^)
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you saying that the frontal area and drag combined for beetle
are 3 times worse than that for CRX?
Beetle: Cd=0.38 A=1.91m^2, product is 0.725
CRX: Cd=0.29 A=1.862m^2, product is 0.54
The product for CRX is 34% less but the power
consumption (main difference at high speed is only due to this
product) - ~300%.
Can you explain? May be Don can chime in.
Try the same numbers for 25mph where air drag and frontal area
still have negligible effect.
Victor
Emil Naepflein wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 13:38:20 -0800, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Careful, this spread sheet is attempt to formalize known
dependencies, but the end result may be off reality by a
factor of 2 or 3.
The spreadsheet is correctly programmed. All depends on the parameters
you enter.
It should not take for a normal pasenger car more than
15kW to move at 60 mph. My ACRX takes 45A at 300V at
60 mph, this is 13.5 kW. Yet Don's spreadsheet estimates
that for a new beetle (~ similar shape) 46kW needed - more
than 3x error.
The problem is that the New Beetle has a drag coefficient like a brick
and a frontal area much larger than your ACRX.
Just put the values of your ACRX into the spreedsheet and you get what
you expect (don't forget to set PercentGrade to 0):
FrontalAreaOfCar 1,86 m^2
PercentGrade 0
VehicleMass 1534 kg
Drivetrain efficiency 0,9
Tire rolling resistance coefficient 0,01
Brake and Steering Resistance 0,003
DragCoefficient 0,29
AirDensity 1,25 kg/m^3 (1.2 grams/litre)
Speed (km/h) 100
(m/s) 27,8
ForceOfAirResistance (N) 260,1
ForceOfIncline (N) 0
ForceOfRollingResistance (N) 196
TotalDrag (N) 456
Power to Maintain Speed (W) 14067
Power to Maintain Speed (hp) 18,9
You can clearly see that the is a lot of difference regarding energy use
at 60 mph for normal passenger cars. It seems to be that the beetle is
no optimal base for an energy efficient EV.
Cheers,
Emil
------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
What would our lives be like without music, dance, and theater?
Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/TzSHvD/SOnJAA/79vVAA/bGYolB/TM
--------------------------------------------------------------------~->
Yahoo! Groups Links
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ThunderSky/
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom,
It all started from ignorance. They wanted to ban pocket bikes which are
already illegal on the roads of this state. They thought pocket bikes and
electric foot scooters were the same animal. They rushed to put in an
ordinance without doing any research. It is very frightening to find out
that this is how laws are made, from fear and ignorance. No, there hasn't
been any accidents as far as I know but there have been some bicycle and
automobile accidents. Maybe we should ban them.
Roderick Wilde
two months of scooter riding for the price of one gallon of gasoline
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: EV Awareness
Rod, after your tussle with the city council, tell us what happened.
I'm expecially interested in how they react to being labeled as
anti-American for disagreeing with you.
Why is the Port Townsend council considering an ordinance against
board scooters? Have there been bad accidents in P.T. or are they
reacting to bad news from elsewhere, citizen pressure, or whatever?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: "Jordan Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:21 PM
Subject: EV Awareness
Hi All, My best scooter riding buddy also happens to be my webmaster.
Tonight while having a few drinks and bouncing around ideas while
preparing for an attack on our local city council transportation
committee we came up with a few ideas. They are currently considering an
anti electric board scooter ordinance. We were making handouts and even
some in your face anti patriotic posters that would indicate that you are
anti American if you opposed electric board scooters due to their lack of
dependence on foreign oil. Sorry folks for the slight off topic political
mention. Anyway he did a search on Godaddy.com and found out
www.evawareness.com was available. I immediately snatched it up. We are
going to put up a free access site with downloadable bumper stickers and
documents promoting EV Awareness. I will post an address for submissions.
We will of course give you credit for your creativity. I'm envisioning a
site with some stuff that certain people may find offensive but, heh, you
don't have to download it and print it. We want a free site for
expression. My personal belief is that sometimes our society calls for
some real in your face stuff to wake it up. That is why I love wheel
stands so much!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.7.2 - Release Date: 1/21/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
If they ban all scooters (gas or electric) for the sake of
riding safety of American children, (and have statistics to
prove unsafe use,) then you by default become anti-american
or worse by encouraging subjecting children to ride unsafe devices.
If they ban only 2-stroke gas scooters *for noise/pollution reasons*
but not a word about rider's safety reasons, I'm with you 100% and
replacing gas ones with electric should take care of their issues.
Please make sure they understand this distinction before labeling them.
Victor
Tom Shay wrote:
Rod, after your tussle with the city council, tell us what happened.
I'm expecially interested in how they react to being labeled as
anti-American for disagreeing with you.
Why is the Port Townsend council considering an ordinance against
board scooters? Have there been bad accidents in P.T. or are they
reacting to bad news from elsewhere, citizen pressure, or whatever?
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: "Jordan Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 24, 2005 11:21 PM
Subject: EV Awareness
Hi All, My best scooter riding buddy also happens to be my webmaster.
Tonight while having a few drinks and bouncing around ideas while
preparing for an attack on our local city council transportation
committee we came up with a few ideas. They are currently considering
an anti electric board scooter ordinance. We were making handouts and
even some in your face anti patriotic posters that would indicate that
you are anti American if you opposed electric board scooters due to
their lack of dependence on foreign oil. Sorry folks for the slight
off topic political mention. Anyway he did a search on Godaddy.com and
found out www.evawareness.com was available. I immediately snatched it
up. We are going to put up a free access site with downloadable bumper
stickers and documents promoting EV Awareness. I will post an address
for submissions. We will of course give you credit for your
creativity. I'm envisioning a site with some stuff that certain people
may find offensive but, heh, you don't have to download it and print
it. We want a free site for expression. My personal belief is that
sometimes our society calls for some real in your face stuff to wake
it up. That is why I love wheel stands so much!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome to the club! I end up spending a couple days a year fighting a WA
state wide exotic animal ban. Hearings Weds and Thurs this week. Laws
carefully worded to sound good, but when analyzed are truly horrific.
Oops, off topic. I'll stop now.
At 02:24 PM 1/25/2005, you wrote:
They rushed to put in an ordinance without doing any research. It is
very frightening to find out that this is how laws are made, from fear
and ignorance. No, there hasn't been any accidents as far as I know but
there have been some bicycle and automobile accidents. Maybe we should
ban them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
Than what is the difference between a motorize scooter and a scooter that is
motorize?
Because they are driven by kids that don't have a drivers licease.
A older person or even a very young that is dependent on a handicap power
vehicle, may not have a licease, does that means that cannot drive it?
They can drive it on the sidewalk under 8 mph, but cannot drive it down a
street.
...
Roland
Hi Roland
It's not that. You can rephrase city's opinion as:
Scooters can be driven anywhere in the safe manner only by a
responsible person with common sense and comprehention of
potential danger can comply.
Sorry, this would disqualify kids by their very nature.
You wouldn't allow your son to compete with other kids who'd
run actoss a freeway faster in rush hour! But they may like the
idea. Unfortunately, the adults must draw comprehantion lines,
else half of the kids woulf be killed in silly accidents.
Yes, city could overdo it, but you get the point. Intention
is good, just implementation sucks and needs work. Has
nothing to do with being EV or no EV.
I don't want an idiot on a scooter, EV or not, to run
into my son on the sidewalk while trying to demonstrate
maneuring skills to his buddies, and that is what kids do.
Like it or not.
And, yes, allowing manufacturing of something (jobs, taxes, etc)
but prohibiting free use of the product, is legally doable.
Take guns manufacturing for example.
A gun has never killed anyone. A *person* did.
So restrict such a *persons*, not a manufacturer, what in general
is being done (permits, mandatory training, licencing...)
Makes sense?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What are you all doing or currently working on in regards to
your electric vehicle(s)?
----
I'm still planning / researching. Anyone have anys links to
Ammeter / State of Charge / Amp-Hour meters/gauges for a 300
volt setup? I want to be able to know if the pack is
charged up or not, and to what amount. Also when driving,
how many amps the motor/controller is pulling from the pack
and at what rate.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Victory for Dave & Heather Bernikoff-Raboy and Bill Korthof)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.modbee.com/local/story/9826106p-10685939c.html
Rancher gets to keep his truck
Ford was demanding his electric vehicle so it could be destroyed
By THUY-DOAN LE THE SACRAMENTO BEE
Last Updated: January 25, 2005, 05:18:57 AM PST
David Bernikoff-Raboy, a software designer and rancher from
Catheys Valley in Mariposa County, will be allowed to keep his
environmentally friendly electric-powered pickup truck after
all.
That's because Ford Motor Co. made a U-turn last week, agreeing
to sell two electric-powered Ford Ranger trucks to
Bernikoff-Raboy and a Pomona man.
The two had refused to return their leased vehicles because the
carmaker intended to scrap them.
Bernikoff-Raboy and William Korthof had parked their trucks for
more than a week at a Sacramento Ford dealership in protest.
The two said they were told by a Ford representative Friday that
each will be allowed to buy their truck � for a dollar.
Patrick Sheehan, the company's Northern California branch
manager, said he made an offer to both drivers, but that he would
not confirm the amount.
Ford had been leasing its 1,500 electric-powered trucks since the
late 1990s, primarily to drivers in California and New York, but
informed drivers as their leases expired that the company was
leaving the electric vehicle business and wanted the vehicles so
they could be destroyed.
Bernikoff-Raboy, 33, said he was satisfied with Ford's offer.
"When you start an adventure like this, you're hopeful, but
you're realistic as well," he said. "But for them to respond so
positively has been fulfilling."
Korthof, 26, a solar power contractor in Pomona, said he was
relieved that Ford recognized the value of keeping the
electric-powered trucks on the road.
"I was surprised because I've been talking with Ford for the past
(18 months) to purchase the truck and that went nowhere," he
said. "I'm really pleased they turned the corner on this one to
support the driver."
To celebrate victory in getting Ford to change its plans, several
electric vehicles paraded Saturday in downtown Sacramento.
Carolyn Brown, a Ford spokeswoman, said the company would work
with other owners who want to keep their trucks. She said an
estimated 100 customers drive leased electric vehicles, mostly in
California, and those contracts will be up soon.
"We take our customer satisfaction issues seriously and it was
apparent to us how passionate these people are," she said.
Because of a lack of consumer demand, Brown said, Ford is moving
its focus to the gasoline-electric hybrid market.
===
http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/index.php?news=2400
Ford relents to EV protest Monday 24 January 2005
Ford has agreed to sell its Ranger EV (electric vehicle) models
to protesting owners, after a week-long campaign by the Jumpstart
Ford coalition. The company will sell the zero-emission pickups
to Dave and Heather Bernikoff-Raboy and Bill Korthof, who leased
their Rangers over recent years.
The coalition, which includes Global Action and Rainforest Action
Network, will now turn its attention to urging Ford to adopt a
new EV policy and bring in more fuel efficient vehicles across
the range. The campaign notes that Ford�s current hybrid SUV
Escape, which is being heavily marketed as �the first American
hybrid� and a �no compromise� vehicle represents just 1% of its
output, while the �eco-friendly� Rouge River factory�s
water-saving rooftop is somewhat negated by the production of
280,000 F-150s that are built at the plant each year.
Ford�s decision on the Ranger EVs echoes the outcome of last
year�s Th!nk campaign, in which the company reversed a proposal
to destroy its fleet of electric cars and send them to Norway for
retail, following intense protests by green groups.
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
