EV Digest 4063
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: My Battery Pack Specifications
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Basic electronic controller question (higher battery voltage, than
motor voltage?)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Noisy adapter plate/trans. etc. in CivicWithACord
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: BMS, and wasted cycles NiZn or LiIon
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ETEK problem found. ( disassemble )
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Magnetic blowouts for contactors
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Myth about Shelf Life of LiIon
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: ETEK problem found. (extreem cooling?)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Noisy adapter plate/trans. etc. in CivicWithACord
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 1999 electro truck
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: High voltage EV audio system
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Interesting article on Usatoday for EV hybrids
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Noisy adapter plate/trans
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) ADC Motor questions
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: ADC Motor questions
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: ADC Motor questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Zilla /palm (better serial terminal?)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: ETEK problem found. (extreem cooling?)
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Magnetic blowouts for contactors
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Is the 18650 cell pack the $1.75 solution that marc was talking about? This
seems kinda interesting for a MC, although 1or 2 k cells, all those
interconnects, oofda. Can these be used with those weld on tabs? Might be
worth buying/making a battery tab welder. I wonder if one could come up
with/use a more cost effective BMS in a bigger (higher voltage, more batts
per BMS) more robust format. Those little circuit boards look kinda.. small
and cheesy? I mean in a laptop or RC car, no prob. But in that big a pack?
DC.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 10:55 PM
Subject: Re: My Battery Pack Specifications
So basically you want a battery that will offer a true 50Ah at a 2C
continuous discharge rate, be able to sustain 6C pulse rates, that weighs
less than 30 lbs, with BMS for $87 or less? Don't we all!
What about volume restrictions or life cycle requirements?
Now if you meant $1.75/wh, I know of a battery that can get pretty close.
Marc Kohler
Wanna go the Tzero route? 2Ah 18650 cells for $5.20 each, 5# for 50 (don't
know
how much the solder tabs adds to that weight):
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=990 -
adding a
$4.50 BMS for each 7.2V-worth of batteries makes it a buck per wh -- less
if
each BMS can keep a number of paralleled cells safe. 1000 cells weigh
about
105#, for a 144V/50Ah pack with a 125A peak (not 6C capable). If you can
keep
up with the soldering, we can hope Sony sells their 26650VT cells for a
reasonable price and add a hybrid lithium pack to give an occasional 20C
burst.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In theory this would work.
but locking into %75 Pwm without using the Motor amps feed back would be
dangerous... You will find that a hard %75 PWM at low motor speeds will make
LOTS Of amps, infact it will over amp things in a bad way. At full speed and
full load %75 PWM Would be a nice limit.
But the motor looks almost like a short circuit at locked rotor to about 500
rpm... To maintain Amps control down here you need to have a very short
minimum PWM time limit.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 8:34 PM
Subject: RE: Basic electronic controller question (higher battery voltage,
than motor voltage?)
>
> Hi Rich,
>
> thanks for your reply and explanations, this really helped.
> One more question below:
>
> >> 3. the motor can be run from a higher voltage battery pack than
> >> the motor rated voltage?
> >Much higher!!
> > On our high end controllers... aka the Zilla line of controllers...
you
> >can program the peak motor voltage, and that can be a LOT less that the
> >battery voltage. This keeps a 48 volt motor from fireballing it's comm if
> >you have a 200 to 400 volt battery pack. This is s very nice design
> >feature... and expensive.
>
> Can I achieve the same thing with a motor where I cannot set the voltage
> but only the max output current and the max. duty cycle? I was hoping that
> by capping the duty cycle at e.g. 75% I cap the max. voltage?
>
>
> > >
> > > Related: Could I run my 12V powerwheels motors with a 36V controller
> > > and 36V batteries limited to something like 33% duty cycle?
> > >
> > Sure could !! and if you wanted to rip up the drive train,
> > Why limit the
> > PWM.
>
> Well, the idea of using it at a low duty cycle would be to
> prolong the life of the gears and also to keep my kiddo from
> drag racing around the yard and getting hurt (I need to make
> sure my elec-trak is faster than his power wheels :)
>
> Markus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Washer trick first and test for a day or two to see if your builder is right
then file if he is? DC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 12:04 AM
Subject: Noisy adapter plate/trans. etc. in CivicWithACord
Well, Mr. Local TrannyRebuilder with 25+ years in the
business is firmly convinced that my shaft is just a
bit long.
In the Civic, there is a pilot bearing in the
middle of the flywheel, and he thinks that the shaft
is mashed up to the splines, causing stress on the
whole shaft, and that this would account for the
whine/noises at 25+ mph in first, and when under
greater load. Sooo, I either:
file down the shaft, or
use washers to space the motor slightly further from
the tranny (1/16" or so).
If I file, I sure as heck can't add more metal after
taking it down a shade.
If I space, I don't like the additional wigglability
this might give the tranny. Plus, I'd need to caulk
between the bell housing and adapter plate, which
would look kind of weak, not to mention washers
sticking out in 8-10 places around the bell...
That leaves me leaning toward the file.
Anybody have additional thoughts?
--- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 9:38 AM
Subject: Re: EA Adapter plate reliab. & torque
rotation ?s
> Thanks, this is helpful. Unfortunately, the sound
is
> not present until under significant RPMs, or high
> load.
I'm wondering if it might be the tranny ,
> These conditions are not met when on a 12V run.
24v will spin a 8 or 9 pritty fast without a load .
> Otherwise we'd have noticed the problem before
> installing in the vehicle...
This is not somthing thats going to take a lot of
work once you have the
motor out. replace one bolt at a time with the
smaller bolts and tighten ,
so its in the same place , then run up to a good
speed , adding batteries
one at a time , Don't over speed your motor !!! 36v
is fast and will need
the tranny drag to slow it down.
> (;-p
> --- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > I would consider this last resort, but better
than
> > throwing away the
> > > adapter. An SCCA publication recommended doing
> > this, and Steve Clunn
> > > does something similar on his videos
> > (http://www.grassrootsev.com).
> > > Drill out the tranny bolt and pin holes
oversize.
> >
> > You don't even need to drill the holes bigger
just
> > use smaller bolts and
> > remove the pins for the test. Run the motor
first
> > with the set up you have
> > so you know how it sounds. Have the motor
sitting
> > with tail shaft pointing
> > toward the ground and tranny sitting on top , I
> > start off with 12v and then
> > 24v. You do the tapping while the motor is
running
> > so you can hear the
> > difference. You may also have to release the
clutch
> > a few time to get it
> > centered.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bolt the motor and
> > > tranny together tight enough it doesn't slip,
but
> > loose enough a
> > > mallet can budge them. Run the motor, tap the
> > tranny, and keep doing
> > > the clutch until the noise is minimized. Then
> > tighten the bolts all
> > > the way. Optionally, you could drill and drive
in
> > new locating pins
> > > if you wanted to make the fit repeatable.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced
search. Learn more.
> http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The wasted cycles are for testing chargers..... and getting the whole pack
equalized and all the shelf latnecy dialed out before abusing the BMS.
Evercells were a pain to dial in, but once close they got closer with every
cycle. Then if you let them sit for a couple of days, you had to start over
again.
BMS...
The MK3 project is alive and kicking.... boards are in FAB.
Data from Regs down The current Reg buss is going to happen... an soon.
Don't even ask for prices and shipping dates yet. That it will start with as
simple a data flow as we can come up with and it will be text Ascci and 9600
Baud is a given.
Cloning Ot's Zilla setup menu or it's close, look and feel is a very good
idea.
Crude, basic, and useable. Sorry Otmar.. I was doing text based menus in
8080 code under CP/M in the mid 80s....
A "D" command dumps all the programmed data. Then sub menus with a few
lettered choices lets you change the data in the lettered locations.
Something like a "D1" command will dump all the data from Reg #1.
Anyways I will wait to see what happens. I have enough to do...I am going to
cut code on the DSP this weekend. or figure out what I lost when the 1Gig
went down. Long story, but my DSP programming enviroment went away with the
1Gigs death. I am now finding out how good my back ups were or were not....
And Yea Otmar... a USB front end for a Zilla or a PFC charger and a stack
of Regs would be really nice... If we both had the man years to dump on it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awsome, so does the output shaft slide out of the bearing?
Yes.
Or does the bearing come out of the housing? NO
How about the other end of the shaft and it's bearing?
bearing and shaft stay.
Would it be possible to slide to rotor/comm off the shaft?
There seems to be a big nut holding the rotor on the shaft.
So that maybe you could replace it with a longer shaft? <wink> <wink>
L8r
Ryan
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
The ETEK is super simple to disassemble. Take of the brushes. They are
held in with three 6mm bolts. (mark the 10mm bolts placement and
timing) Take out the nine 10mm bolts. (one is for case alignment) Take
the E ring from the output shaft and use a sledge hammer on the output
shaft to crack the case. It is very precision. You don't have to hit
the shaft very hard. (hit it on the end) This exposes the rotor. You
could get to any material that got into the motor or inspect for
connector damage. Lawrence Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
Some time ago there was discussion on magnetic blowouts used on contactors,
and specifically adding them to contactors without them to increase their
capacity.
I have searched and I can't find any posts that actually stated the
polarity of magnets relative to the arc paths.
A Dogpile search under Lenz's law turned up a lot of statements of Lenz's
law that didn't help one bit (and quite a few Lenz, lawyers), but in a link
from a listed page I found:
http://www.cyberclassrooms.net/~pschweiger/magnetism.html with a lot of
bits of information including a diagram of "right hand rule" of magnetic
force (Extend the right hand so that the fingers point in the direction of
the magnetic field and the thumb points in the direction of the current.
The palm of the hand then pushes in the direction of the magnetic force).
If I interpret this correctly, I can install magnets into my contactors in
the following manner:
Conventional current flow "out of the 'page'" in the upper contact, "into
the 'page'" in the lower contact, to push the arcs away from center. The
contacts are a normal moving-bar contactor.
___
[S-N] (out) [S-N]
| |
| o |
| |
[N-S] ( in) [N-S]
---
The contactors that I have that I intend to use for heater and vacuum pump
were made with holes moulded into them for button magnets to be installed,
and I can get neodynium magnets readily in the required size.
Part b of this question, relating to the bigger contactors that I have that
already have magnets. If I put stronger magnets in place of the existing
ones, will this help to clear an arc when used at a higher than designed
voltage (72V contactors being used at 120V)?. I am increasing the opening
distance, and using Lee Hart's slugger circuit to pull them in from 120V,
but run the coils at around 60V. (I'm using dual contactors, one in each of
B+ and B-, but the Zilla if not happy will only drop the B+ contactor,
which I'd like to uprate. I can use a bit of 'jiggery-pokery' and make the
B- contactor drop out if the B+ drops out, so it is not essential).
Thanks
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
'78 Daihatsu 1300kg truck under conversion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your test is interesting BUT value for your cells type not for all.
After choosing usage, li-ion cells producer has to put chemistry to have
shelf life, power, cycling capability, security under stress etc.
compromise.
what i'm "trying" to mean is maybe your li-ion cell was made with good shelf
life objective but probably has less "other things"
actual product are made for security, capacity, temp tolerance NOT shelf
life...we live in a consumer world now, product robustnes (read long life)
is first thing they trough away to obtain cheaper price :^(
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 1:21 AM
Subject: Myth about Shelf Life of LiIon
> I have never believed that the capacity of LiIon
> decreases regardless of usage because I have a
> 9-year-old Sony camcorder with LiIon batteries that
> are still good. So, I did a test.
>
> I have 2 batteries -- 1 high capacity and 1 original.
> I did not use the original batteries very often. Over
> the past 9 years, I would say it has been used only
> about 10-20 cycles. This battery is a SONY NP-F330
> 7.2V 5.0Wh (translate to about 0.694Ah). Today, I did
> a discharge test using a light bulb to 3V per cell.
> This is what I got.
>
> 0.6487Ah or 4.671Wh over 138mins
>
> It still has 93% of its original capacity! I think it
> is just another LiIon myth.
>
> Ed Ang
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 3:14 AM
Subject: Re: ETEK problem found. (extreem cooling?)
> Sorry to hear about your ETEK failure.
> Does anyone happen to have photos of the insides of these motors?
> How about a proper dis-assembly method?
pictures and method on this page and following:
http://www.sfdigitaldesign.com/scootereventscommunity/showthread.php?s=25a508e8831652552e538861963fd254&threadid=7622&perpage=15&pagenumber=10
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
When my EV was assembly back in 1975, the brass pilot bushing that is press
into motor shaft adapter, was not center in with 0.010 of a inch from the
reference flywheel mounting bolts.
It made a slight whine noise. It got worse as it wore. I let it run this
way for ten years until I broke down the motor for inspection and cleaning.
The brass pilot bearing was somewhat loose in the adapter, no longer a tight
press in fit. Took the adapter to a machine shop, which check the motor
bore and pilot bearing bore to a center reference to the flywheel bolt
holes.
They build up the motor shaft bore, transmission pilot bearing bore and key
way with a fuse on brass compound and machined it to with in 10,000 of a
inch of center.
Also, they install two more 3/8 set screws holes. Install the adapter on a
test shaft with 4 set screws in place. The set screw that goes against the
key is shorter, so all set screw protruded the same length. This is what
causes some unbalance.
They spun balance it to 10,000 RPM, making adjustments to different size set
screws which have numbers stamp in the head, so I put the right ones in the
same location.
It runs very smoothly at 10,000 RPM. Today, I will have to rework the motor
pilot shaft (coming off the front of the motor). It is starting to transmit
a harmonic back into the motor.
It has a damper type coupler to drive a drive shaft to a accessory unit,
which I will have to replace. I am going to try a liquid type damper
coupler this time that will allow misalignment.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 12:04 AM
Subject: Noisy adapter plate/trans. etc. in CivicWithACord
> Well, Mr. Local TrannyRebuilder with 25+ years in the
> business is firmly convinced that my shaft is just a
> bit long.
> In the Civic, there is a pilot bearing in the
> middle of the flywheel, and he thinks that the shaft
> is mashed up to the splines, causing stress on the
> whole shaft, and that this would account for the
> whine/noises at 25+ mph in first, and when under
> greater load. Sooo, I either:
> file down the shaft, or
> use washers to space the motor slightly further from
> the tranny (1/16" or so).
> If I file, I sure as heck can't add more metal after
> taking it down a shade.
> If I space, I don't like the additional wigglability
> this might give the tranny. Plus, I'd need to caulk
> between the bell housing and adapter plate, which
> would look kind of weak, not to mention washers
> sticking out in 8-10 places around the bell...
> That leaves me leaning toward the file.
> Anybody have additional thoughts?
>
>
> --- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 9:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: EA Adapter plate reliab. & torque
> > rotation ?s
> >
> >
> > > Thanks, this is helpful. Unfortunately, the sound
> > is
> > > not present until under significant RPMs, or high
> > > load.
> > I'm wondering if it might be the tranny ,
> >
> > > These conditions are not met when on a 12V run.
> >
> > 24v will spin a 8 or 9 pritty fast without a load .
> >
> > > Otherwise we'd have noticed the problem before
> > > installing in the vehicle...
> >
> > This is not somthing thats going to take a lot of
> > work once you have the
> > motor out. replace one bolt at a time with the
> > smaller bolts and tighten ,
> > so its in the same place , then run up to a good
> > speed , adding batteries
> > one at a time , Don't over speed your motor !!! 36v
> > is fast and will need
> > the tranny drag to slow it down.
> >
> >
> >
> > > (;-p
> > > --- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I would consider this last resort, but better
> > than
> > > > throwing away the
> > > > > adapter. An SCCA publication recommended doing
> > > > this, and Steve Clunn
> > > > > does something similar on his videos
> > > > (http://www.grassrootsev.com).
> > > > > Drill out the tranny bolt and pin holes
> > oversize.
> > > >
> > > > You don't even need to drill the holes bigger
> > just
> > > > use smaller bolts and
> > > > remove the pins for the test. Run the motor
> > first
> > > > with the set up you have
> > > > so you know how it sounds. Have the motor
> > sitting
> > > > with tail shaft pointing
> > > > toward the ground and tranny sitting on top , I
> > > > start off with 12v and then
> > > > 24v. You do the tapping while the motor is
> > running
> > > > so you can hear the
> > > > difference. You may also have to release the
> > clutch
> > > > a few time to get it
> > > > centered.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Bolt the motor and
> > > > > tranny together tight enough it doesn't slip,
> > but
> > > > loose enough a
> > > > > mallet can budge them. Run the motor, tap the
> > > > tranny, and keep doing
> > > > > the clutch until the noise is minimized. Then
> > > > tighten the bolts all
> > > > > the way. Optionally, you could drill and drive
> > in
> > > > new locating pins
> > > > > if you wanted to make the fit repeatable.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > =====
> > > '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> > > ____
> > > __/__|__\ __
> > > =D-------/ - - \
> > > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> > came out of the steering
> > wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced
> > search. Learn more.
> > > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free!
> http://my.yahoo.com
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
I had found the electrotruck by going to the website and
searching for "electro" (upper right corner)
It will come up at item # 030357
Markus
1970s Elec-traks E20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Chapman
> Sent: Samstag, 29. Januar 2005 01:40
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: 1999 electro truck
>
>
> Bill,
> Couldn't find the auction you were referring to. I did see
> some outhouses
> going cheap and a strange looking plasma cutter in
> "Humptulips" but no
> electric truck anywhere in Wa. Got an item #? David Chapman.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "billb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 10:54 AM
> Subject: 1999 electro truck
>
>
> > Hi Folks there is a '99 72 volt electro truck on the gsa web site
> > http://gsaauctions.gov in Wa. closing 2/1. I wonder if it could be
> > improved by going to 96 or even 120 volt? Bill
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking about this a while ago , if you used a 120v pack , split in
the middel you would have 60v + and - which would make a good amp power
supply .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2005 4:48 PM
Subject: High voltage EV audio system
> Hi Everyone,
>
> John Wayland - this post is for you! :)
>
> This is way out in dream-land, but a quiz just got canceled at school
which gave my brain some free-time. If you wanted to put in an awesome
stereo system, you'd have to get beefier DC/DC's...or why couldn't someone
put out a high-voltage audio amp? Anyone know of something like that? I
could see a niche market there - EV's with kicking stereo systems. It would
be the new fad :) Every low-rider would be selling their rig to get an EV.
Who cares if it only goes 20 miles, it blows all the other stereo systems
away!
>
> -Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks for bringing this article to our attention.
shows that we are making progress.
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2005-01-28-plugged-in-hybrids_x.htm
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The nissan I am converting had a metal plate between the ICE and the
tranny, it served as the cover for the front of the tranny below the
motor or as a dust shield. Lots of cars have these plates, and I assume
we converters toss them. If yours did, it would be "cleaner" than
individual washers.
At least you can sneak the washers in right now and take a drive to
confirm the problem.
--
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--- Begin Message ---
I got my new (used) motor (ADC FB1-4001-A) on the bench and gave a good looking
over. It had been
sitting in a car, in the pine forrest, for about ten years. It spun freely, the
brushes had plenty
of life left, the commutator looked ok, all the connections looked good, even
touched it in a few
places with a meter. It looked like it would fire right up if I applied a
little juice.
Considering that I bought the whole car for $600, I was pretty happy. So I did
what anyone would
do, I took it all apart. Well, I had to see what was inside one these things!
So, I have a few questions;
The bearings spin freely, no roughness or noise. They look like sealed bearings
but there was some
old semi-hardened grease on the outside. Maybe someone was trying to do some
maintenance and
smeered some on. Are the bearings on this thing pretty durable? Since I'm
already in here should I
replace them anyway? Not sure how much replacements are.
The commutator was dark but no grooves. Should I do anything more than clean it
up a bit? Make
sure the gaps are clean? I'm a little hesitant to do anything like file it back
down to shiny
metal. I don't have easy access to a lathe.
The case is still solid but they did install it under a couple of batteries and
time and battery
acid corroded the outside a little. I was able to scrape of most of the scale
and rust off. There
is no place where the pitting went more that a sixteenth to three thirty
secondths in depth. Is it
worth it to sand blast it and paint it up?
I've read enough about cooling to want to add some to this motor. I recently
retired an old Sears
Microwave and got two nice squirrel cage blowers from it. The problem is they
run great on 110 AC.
Is there any way to use them in the EV without supplying 110v AC? (I'll
probably be using a 120v
DC traction pack.) The motors are pretty integral with the fans, no good way to
swap them out.
When I get it back together, can I fire it up with a little low voltage? I read
a post where
someone reccomended running in new brushes with 12 volts for a while. I also
read where a motor
with no load can tear itself apart if too much juice is applied.
Thanks
Dave Cover
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--- Begin Message ---
I believe those bearings are size 6305, I use
the same size in one of my 64 frame motors at work (64
frame means 64/16" or 4" diameter stator).
The bearings may be dried up from sitting so long.
Drop me an email if interested and we can make a deal.
Rod
--- Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I got my new (used) motor (ADC FB1-4001-A) on the
> bench and gave a good looking over. It had been
> sitting in a car, in the pine forrest, for about ten
> years. It spun freely, the brushes had plenty
> of life left, the commutator looked ok, all the
> connections looked good, even touched it in a few
> places with a meter. It looked like it would fire
> right up if I applied a little juice.
> Considering that I bought the whole car for $600, I
> was pretty happy. So I did what anyone would
> do, I took it all apart. Well, I had to see what was
> inside one these things!
>
> So, I have a few questions;
>
> The bearings spin freely, no roughness or noise.
> They look like sealed bearings but there was some
> old semi-hardened grease on the outside. Maybe
> someone was trying to do some maintenance and
> smeered some on. Are the bearings on this thing
> pretty durable? Since I'm already in here should I
> replace them anyway? Not sure how much replacements
> are.
>
> The commutator was dark but no grooves. Should I do
> anything more than clean it up a bit? Make
> sure the gaps are clean? I'm a little hesitant to do
> anything like file it back down to shiny
> metal. I don't have easy access to a lathe.
>
> The case is still solid but they did install it
> under a couple of batteries and time and battery
> acid corroded the outside a little. I was able to
> scrape of most of the scale and rust off. There
> is no place where the pitting went more that a
> sixteenth to three thirty secondths in depth. Is it
> worth it to sand blast it and paint it up?
>
> I've read enough about cooling to want to add some
> to this motor. I recently retired an old Sears
> Microwave and got two nice squirrel cage blowers
> from it. The problem is they run great on 110 AC.
> Is there any way to use them in the EV without
> supplying 110v AC? (I'll probably be using a 120v
> DC traction pack.) The motors are pretty integral
> with the fans, no good way to swap them out.
>
> When I get it back together, can I fire it up with a
> little low voltage? I read a post where
> someone reccomended running in new brushes with 12
> volts for a while. I also read where a motor
> with no load can tear itself apart if too much juice
> is applied.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
It is best to replace the bearings at that time when you break down a motor.
Go to a motor shop for the bearings. Used seal bearings with high
temperature grease, Normally made by GE or Westinghouse.
While you are there, and if you can take the rotor in, see what they
recommend for undercutting the commentator. You can get your own
undercutting tools and commentator cleaning stones if needed.
Dark is good, you want a dark tan color on the commentator, as long as there
is no deep scratches or a deep recessed in the commentator brush area.
Take a note of the brush type and you may want to order brushes at this
time. The best brushes will be pre curved and just a touch softer than the
commutator. My brushes are as hard as tool steel running on a cast bronze
commentator segments for over 20 years with out replacements.
You may want to have the commentator, micro mirror, which some motor shops
do. It involves taking the surface down to a mirror finish, that increases
the brush life. It does not take so much brush wearing to fill a rough
surface left by lathing or stoning, which is the break in of a commentator,
making it dark tan color.
If you motor does not have a internal fan for cooling, you could add a
blower type fan, by mounting it on the brush covers. My is a 6 inch 12 VDC
Dayton blower fan, that I install a 6 inch diameter carburetor air filter
on.
If your motor is disassemble, that you could paint the inside casing of the
motor. I used appliance epoxy paint that does need any primer. I painted
my motor white in the inside and black on the outside with this paint. Its
very durable and its acid resistance. It made the inside of the motor very
slick for brush dust to be blown out the rear screen grills.
One more resistance test you could do on the motor is the field and rotor to
motor case continuity. When it gets down to 50K Ohms, it is time to clean
the motor from the brush dust that is tracking.
The area on the front of the commentator to the motor shaft, normally tracks
the brush dust and decreases the resistance to ground.
In this area, I painted the front of the commentator down and on the shaft
up to the bearing surfaces with high temperature motor enamel which you can
get from a motor shop in either a spray or can.
The resistance to ground should read over 3 to 20 meg.ohms with a clean
motor.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2005 8:54 AM
Subject: ADC Motor questions
> I got my new (used) motor (ADC FB1-4001-A) on the bench and gave a good
> looking over. It had been
> sitting in a car, in the pine forrest, for about ten years. It spun
> freely, the brushes had plenty
> of life left, the commutator looked ok, all the connections looked good,
> even touched it in a few
> places with a meter. It looked like it would fire right up if I applied a
> little juice.
> Considering that I bought the whole car for $600, I was pretty happy. So I
> did what anyone would
> do, I took it all apart. Well, I had to see what was inside one these
> things!
>
> So, I have a few questions;
>
> The bearings spin freely, no roughness or noise. They look like sealed
> bearings but there was some
> old semi-hardened grease on the outside. Maybe someone was trying to do
> some maintenance and
> smeered some on. Are the bearings on this thing pretty durable? Since I'm
> already in here should I
> replace them anyway? Not sure how much replacements are.
>
> The commutator was dark but no grooves. Should I do anything more than
> clean it up a bit? Make
> sure the gaps are clean? I'm a little hesitant to do anything like file it
> back down to shiny
> metal. I don't have easy access to a lathe.
>
> The case is still solid but they did install it under a couple of
> batteries and time and battery
> acid corroded the outside a little. I was able to scrape of most of the
> scale and rust off. There
> is no place where the pitting went more that a sixteenth to three thirty
> secondths in depth. Is it
> worth it to sand blast it and paint it up?
>
> I've read enough about cooling to want to add some to this motor. I
> recently retired an old Sears
> Microwave and got two nice squirrel cage blowers from it. The problem is
> they run great on 110 AC.
> Is there any way to use them in the EV without supplying 110v AC? (I'll
> probably be using a 120v
> DC traction pack.) The motors are pretty integral with the fans, no good
> way to swap them out.
>
> When I get it back together, can I fire it up with a little low voltage? I
> read a post where
> someone reccomended running in new brushes with 12 volts for a while. I
> also read where a motor
> with no load can tear itself apart if too much juice is applied.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
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On Fri, 28 Jan 2005 19:05:05 -0800, Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>XML is, IMHO, little more than a conspiracy to sell faster hardware, more
>>memory and more bandwidth. Definitely NOT applicable here.
>
>Sounds like an extension of Microshaft. :-)
How did you guess?
>Lots of great thoughts presented here. Thank you all, I appreciate
>them and I've learned somethign new.
>I can see how some type of XML like interface may work. But clearly
>it has way too much overhead for effective data acquisition. So once
>again we'll end up with some bastardization of a standard. Sounds
>like embedded programming to me! :-)
Being more of a hardware guy, I tend to throw a little more hardware at a
problem if it can eliminate complications and more software.
Consider this. Have your main controller communicate in binary or hex or
whatever is convenient for that processor. Add another processor, say, a
PIC, to do the binary to human readable conversion. You could then either
put the human readable I/O on another pair of pins or have the aux
processor detect a signal, say 3 <cr>s in a row or a <break>, to gate the
human readable I/O onto the normal serial pins. To minimize the hardware,
the second processor could simply repeat in binary mode and no gating
would be necessary.
That way the main processor has minimal communications overhead and the
data stream when logging is in progress. At the cost of maybe $2 or 3
installed cost, the second processor can take care of all the human
interface tasks and can be as verbose as necessary. Especially with low
volume production, the minimal additional cost of the hardware would
greatly offset the cost of your time trying to cram more stuff in the main
processor's memory.
Re: USB. I don't think it necessary yet either. I will have to say that I
have had problems with the USB/serial converters, which is why I paid
extra to get this notebook with a built-in serial port.
Have you considered one of the generic USB chips that work with winder's
HID interface? That would require no driver on the computer side and
practically no programming on the host side. Disclaimer: I haven't paid
much attention to USB yet but such chips have caught my attention in
passing. Sorry, no references.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 13:04:39 +0100, "Philippe Borges"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>pictures and method on this page and following:
>http://www.sfdigitaldesign.com/scootereventscommunity/showthread.php?s=25a508e8831652552e538861963fd254&threadid=7622&perpage=15&pagenumber=10
>
Kewl. Thanks. I'd been looking for some disassembly photos and
techniques. Those magnets kinda make my fingers tremble...
Different thread on the same forum that might be of interest,
http://powerpackmotors.com/
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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At 10:13 PM +1100 1-29-05, James Massey wrote:
Hi all
Some time ago there was discussion on magnetic blowouts used on
contactors, and specifically adding them to contactors without them
to increase their capacity.
I have searched and I can't find any posts that actually stated the
polarity of magnets relative to the arc paths.
A Dogpile search under Lenz's law turned up a lot of statements of
Lenz's law that didn't help one bit (and quite a few Lenz, lawyers),
but in a link from a listed page I found:
http://www.cyberclassrooms.net/~pschweiger/magnetism.html with a lot
of bits of information including a diagram of "right hand rule" of
magnetic force (Extend the right hand so that the fingers point in
the direction of the magnetic field and the thumb points in the
direction of the current. The palm of the hand then pushes in the
direction of the magnetic force).
If I interpret this correctly, I can install magnets into my
contactors in the following manner:
Conventional current flow "out of the 'page'" in the upper contact,
"into the 'page'" in the lower contact, to push the arcs away from
center. The contacts are a normal moving-bar contactor.
___
[S-N] (out) [S-N]
| |
| o |
| |
[N-S] ( in) [N-S]
---
As I understand it, this will blow one arc outward and one arc inward
(essentially both in the same direction) either up or down, I don't
know which.
___
[S-N] (out) [S-N]
| |
| o |
| |
[S-N] ( in) [S-N] Warning! I may have out and in reversed!
---
This is how the Albright magnets are set up. I'm not clear about
which one is + and which is - (in/out) since I don't have anything
handy to tell me north and south of the magnets. I've looked all over
for that darn compass!
Here is my email with the discussion from the last time it came up.
At 6:34 PM -0700 9-17-04, Otmar wrote:
To: [email protected]
From: Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Contactor polarity
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:
At 5:58 PM -0700 9-17-04, Lee Hart wrote:
>>> I have Curtis/Albright SW80 contactors. Where
does the + go? To the + battery or the + motor?
Lee Hart wrote:
The polarity only matters if the contactor has magnetic blowouts,
and even then, only if the design is assymetric (contacts are
not round, and have more space on one side than the other).
Albright contacts are symmetrical; therefore, it doesn't matter
which way you wire the polarity.
Otmar replied:
I think I'd disagree.
As I see it, wire it one way and the arc is blown out into open air,
That's a good thing. Wire it backwards and the arc is pushed in
towards the center of the contactor, towards the shaft and hardware
which could carry current and result in a meltdown.
What am I missing here?
Hmm... now you have me wondering, too. I have an Albright SW80 here.
It's contacts are round, and the case is perfectly symmetrical. It
shouldn't make any difference if the arc blows out the left or right
side.
Aha! This is where we differ.
As I understand it, it's not left or right, but out or in.
During a normal inductive break, I see the arcs (and the traces on
the contacts) starting at the center of the contact and blowing
outward, out the side opening that you can see the contacts through.
It does this on both sides. Therefore the magnets must be reversed
on one side.
OK, I just checked. I happen to have a SW200 on my heater.
One flat side of the contactor (spanning both contacts) has north
towards the contacts, and the other has south. Since power on one
contact goes up and the other side goes down, this makes sense that
the arcs will always blow outward if properly connected.
Picture and movie of arc here:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/temp/SW200/
The movie
http://www.cafeelectric.com/temp/SW200/SW200Arc.MOV
is a bit too slow to really see the arc move, but in real life it's
possible to see it.
In the picture,
http://www.cafeelectric.com/temp/SW200/SW200ArcMark.JPG
you can clearly see the lines that the arc leaves on the contact as
it progresses outward. Also, you can see the burn on the edge of the
contact where the arc burns out. Just where you want it. :-)
This contactor is hooked up with the + terminal on battery positive.
btw, this was at about 6 amps at 240V.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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