EV Digest 4071
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVLN(Maybe there's something to this electric vehicle thing)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: SCR Was: Zombie Dyno Time
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: electric tadpole was pusher trailer info
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Build your own ELECTRIC VEHICLE class. In San Francisco.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EVLN(FI gets hybrid tech,Toyota>Li-ions,GM>20%,consumer gets LARGE hybrids)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Build your own ELECTRIC VEHICLE class. In San Francisco.
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "adam1tx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) low rolling resistance tyres
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: low rolling resistance tyres
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: low rolling resistance tyres
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: low rolling resistance tyres
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: low rolling resistance tyres
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EV tested by USAF
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Maybe there's something to this electric vehicle thing)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.freep.com/news/driving/helms2e_20050202.htm
MATT HELMS: The hot list, for road ragers to off-roaders
February 2, 2005 BY MATT HELMS FREE PRESS COLUMNIST
There's a lot to read up on in the current issues of these
magazines:
[...]
Fast - and electric
Popular Science says the world's fastest production electric car
can go 105.6 m.p.h.
Not impressed? The vehicle called the Fetish, from Monaco-based
Venturi Automobiles, is a two-seater with lithium-ion batteries
that generate 300 horsepower and can push the car from 0 to 60 in
4.5 seconds. It gets more than 200 miles per charge.
Not bad, eh? Gives you hope that maybe there's something to this
electric vehicle thing -- until you see the price tag: $660,000.
[...]
Got a good read? Send suggestions to MATT HELMS at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- e-mail is best -- or leave a message at
313-222-1450. Be sure to include your full name, the city where
you live and day and evening phone numbers for verification.
===
[ http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=Fetish+%22electric+vehicle%22 ]
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> I don't think John knows about anything But Violent settings!!!
> The dyno ....Roland.... short for Dynomometer...
>
OH, I left off the NO and went right to the MO.
Also, when you reduce the Amp Hour rating and maximum charging rating of a
battery, than don't you reduce the performance?
I reduce the 300 amp pack at max charge to 250 volts on a 189 volt pack at
1.300 S.G. to 260 amp hour at a max charge to 232.5 at 1.275 S.G. on a 180
volt pack.
The float back voltage is now 189 volts and sags to 175 volts at only a 200
battery amp. The batteries are rated at 800 amps.
> Clearly shows that Watts into a motor and force out are not perfect!!!
> And in a Brushed DC motor... they are quite a bit different.
>
> You have all your losses in the picture, as well as a %45 loss
> Wow...
>
> %45 loss on the first pull and %47 loss on the second.
> This is about what I am predicting on Series wound DC machines...
> It should get a LOT worse when we go over 1000 amps, and be obsene at over
> 1750 amps...
> but Fun!
>
> Alot of these losses can be reduced with just a minor amount of motor
> improvements.
> In most of our cases... it's not improvements that matter it's basic Motor
> sevice....Good Bearings?, full brush contact? Brushes set for planed
> service
> applications??? All the copper properley torqued and cleaned????
>
> I think I am going to have a shop full of U of Washington Students this
> weekend... they want to play with my dyno. Maybe I will get them to help
> set
> it up and pull some real data? This could really help in the BS reduction
> Factor......
>
> I have not had the time... but... with many hands, and bright
> minds....there
> are possibilities...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:48 AM
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
>
> > Hi Bob and all,
> >
> > Did this with My Transformer I, when I received it from the Electric
> > Fuel
> > Propulsion Co. I had it dymo, and we declutch the motor and bring it up
> to
> > about 600 RPM and than let out the clutch while on the dymo.
> >
> > The motor is a GE 12 inch DC series with commutator poles. The motor tag
> > rated it a 165 volts at 175 amps at 6000 RPM.
> >
> > The batteries were 90 each 2.1 volt cobalt cells rated at 300 AH.
> >
> > The controller was a CableForm SCR unit at 850 amp rating.
> >
> > The battery pack of 189 volts can be charge up to a maximum of 249 point
> > something or lets say 250 volts which is about 2.77 volts per cell.
> Specific
> > Gravity was from 1.300 to 1.320 SG.
> >
> > After charging, the batteries would float back to about 205-208 volts.
> >
> > On the Dymo at 6000 RPM the voltage sag at 300 amps was only to 175
> > volts
> > or 52,500 watts.
> > Did not have a two amp meters one for the motor amps and one for the
> battery
> > amps. The Amp meter shunt was connected between the positive side of
> > the
> > battery and directly to the motor. A series type circuit, unlike the
> > way
> a
> > Zilla is now connected to this motor.
> >
> > So if you calculated the HP by the watts method than it would be about
> > 70
> > HP.
> >
> > But the Dymo read 45 HP!
> >
> > Now we than brought the motor down to a idle at 600 RPM and set the
> > Accelerator to violent acceleration. The CableForm accelerator had 4
> > settings from mild to violent.
> >
> > At 600 RPM we than fully depress the accelerator and it was like a semi
> > truck hitting you in the rear at 90 mph, but before it got up to any
> speed,
> > the current limits shut it down.
> >
> > We than retried while holding the amperes below 600 amps with a voltage
> sag
> > to 155 volts. That would be 93,000 watts or a calculated 125 HP.
> >
> > But the Dymo just show over 85 HP.
> >
> > The tires on this rig, was 670-15's high pressure type set at 50 PSI,
> 8-ply
> > tire. Did not have a very aggressive tread pattern.
> >
> > They used large nylon straps to hold the car back.
> >
> > I put it back to mild acceleration for my normal driving, because it was
> > a
> > violent, I would never get out of a parking spot, without destroying the
> > cars that was park in front and back of me.
> >
> > The violent setting cause the motor shaft adapter to start to crack of
> which
> > I had to replace 10 years later.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:36 PM
> > > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> > >
> > >
> > > > NO public comment!!!
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:08 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he
> > > > > >needs to get
> > > > > >going on his monster motor.
> > > > >
> > > > > What's the "monster motor" going to be?
> > > > >
> > > > Hi EVerybody;
> > >
> > > I think he, John, HAS his " Monster Motor" Gees! Whatdoya want!?
> He
> > > has the great advantage of light motors ready to torque their hearts
> out,
> > > light armatures, as well as the cool ability to series=parallel in the
> > > fine
> > > old RR tradition.
> > >
> > > I can see his reluctance to just throw it on the dyno, until he
> > > gets
> > > his
> > > control reliaibility sorted out. Going back thousands of years, like
> > > '71
> > > or
> > > so We at Electric Fuel Propulsion, of Bob Aronson fame , back before,
> when
> > > we actually MADE some stuff. Putting, I think it was, the converted
> > > Sportabout AMC 144 volt wagon on the dyno. It was scary! As the guy
> loaded
> > > down the dyno, the car tried to climb out of the rollers! Only thing
> that
> > > kept it from launching across the shop was the chains we hooked up so
> > > it
> > > couldn't! It put out rediculous amounts of low end horsepower, but
> staying
> > > in and on the rollers was tricky. EV's have 'way too much TORQUE to
> fairly
> > > measure HP as the tires and rollers can't handle it when you load it
> down.
> > > The EV thing of low end torque is tricky to do on a test thing that is
> > > made
> > > for screaming high RPM gassers.I can see John's concern not to just
> > > dive
> > > in
> > > on the dyno, just yet.
> > >
> > > John, when you go on the dyno, bring a Cam Corder, a damn strong
> tydown
> > > chain, and lets ring it out! Let the torque begin!
> > >
> > > Seeya
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 12:54 AM
Subject: SCR Was: Zombie Dyno Time
> Sounds like you'll be playing with a new SCR soon!?
>
I just want to say , how much I was moved by your after the race post , I'm
sure everybody wants to see you do good , the clock doesn't stop , got to
get all this done , and then the unthinkable , one little thing overlooked
and our hero is knocked out cold from a punch that came out of nowhere, been
there a few time . The real hero that day was Otmar who picked you up off
the mat and make you keep going. Not that any of us would have gotten up
after a blow like that and with the clock still ticking. Thanks for sharing
it ,I though I saved it but can't seem to find it , maybe if enough people
ask somebody would post it again .
Steve Clunn
a Steve saying " no mater how good the good times are in the end the bad
time where alway better. "
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have the old shoes you may be able to rebuild them.
http://www.mcmaster.com/ Search for "brake lining".
_________________
Andre' B.
At 12:53 PM 2/2/2005, you wrote:
> I like your trike what happened to it?
It's sitting in the garage. I used some wheels from a slightly rare moped
(and old Indian) and it needs new brake shoes. Unfortunately they are a
non standard size and I can't find anyone that carries them.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Class will be the next three Tuesdays in February. 6:00 PM. Bernal
Library. The class will cover everything from Scooters to Full size Cars.
The class will discuss theory and practical application. No charge for the
class.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Here is a very serious requirement for any EVs on the Dyno... make sure
> you
> can give the operator a clean accurate Tach pulse... Beacuase they can't
> do
> HP unless they have both RPM and torque. We spent a lot of time getting
> tach
> signals to the Dyno equipment.
Why don't they just read the RPM off the roller?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(FI gets hybrid tech,Toyota>Li-ions,GM>20%,consumer gets LARGE
hybrids)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific_business/view/130381/1/.html
Business News � Posted: 02 February 2005 1029 hrs
Toyota to provide Subaru car maker with hybrid vehicle
technology
TOKYO : Japan's top automaker Toyota Motor will provide
hybrid-vehicle technology to Subaru-brand carmaker Fuji Heavy
Industries, helping it exploit the key North American market, a
report said.
Toyota plans to supply its hybrid power system to Fuji Heavy,
which will use it to make hybrids a mainline product in the North
American market, which accounts for 35 percent of its group
sales, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun said.
Fuji Heavy on its part is considering supplying Toyota technology
with lithium-ion batteries it has developed with electronics
maker NEC for use in hybrid vehicles, the economic daily said
without citing sources.
Working-level talks on the technical cooperation have already
been taking place, with Toyota president Cho Fujio and his Fuji
Heavy counterpart Kyoji Takenaka set to enter negotiation soon,
it said.
No immediate comment on the report was available from Toyota.
Hybrids run on either its gasoline engine or on its electric
motor depending on driving conditions, making them much more
economical and environmentally-friendly than conventional
gasoline engines.
Toyota has pioneered the use of green technologies with its
Prius, the world's first mass-produced hybrid car.
US auto giant General Motors, the top shareholder in Fuji Heavy
with a 20 percent stake, has formed a partnership with German-US
DaimlerChrysler to jointly develop hybrid vehicle technology.
But the Nihon Keizai said that the alliance was likely to focus
on technology for use in large vehicles rather than vehicles with
engine displacements of around three liters, Fuji Heavy's
strength. - AFP Agence France Presse. All rights reserved.
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence, great undertaking!
Classes like this will really help to build enthusiasm - there are lots of
people who want build an EV, they just need a start.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: February 2, 2005 3:28 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Zappylist;
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; SFEAA;
ETList
Subject: Build your own ELECTRIC VEHICLE class. In San Francisco.
Class will be the next three Tuesdays in February. 6:00 PM. Bernal
Library. The class will cover everything from Scooters to Full size Cars.
The class will discuss theory and practical application. No charge for the
class.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich,
What brand of batteries are you using (before and after) ?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> I don't think John knows about anything But Violent settings!!!
> The dyno ....Roland.... short for Dynomometer...
>
OH, I left off the NO and went right to the MO.
Also, when you reduce the Amp Hour rating and maximum charging rating of a
battery, than don't you reduce the performance?
I reduce the 300 amp pack at max charge to 250 volts on a 189 volt pack at
1.300 S.G. to 260 amp hour at a max charge to 232.5 at 1.275 S.G. on a 180
volt pack.
The float back voltage is now 189 volts and sags to 175 volts at only a 200
battery amp. The batteries are rated at 800 amps.
> Clearly shows that Watts into a motor and force out are not perfect!!!
> And in a Brushed DC motor... they are quite a bit different.
>
> You have all your losses in the picture, as well as a %45 loss
> Wow...
>
> %45 loss on the first pull and %47 loss on the second.
> This is about what I am predicting on Series wound DC machines...
> It should get a LOT worse when we go over 1000 amps, and be obsene at over
> 1750 amps...
> but Fun!
>
> Alot of these losses can be reduced with just a minor amount of motor
> improvements.
> In most of our cases... it's not improvements that matter it's basic Motor
> sevice....Good Bearings?, full brush contact? Brushes set for planed
> service
> applications??? All the copper properley torqued and cleaned????
>
> I think I am going to have a shop full of U of Washington Students this
> weekend... they want to play with my dyno. Maybe I will get them to help
> set
> it up and pull some real data? This could really help in the BS reduction
> Factor......
>
> I have not had the time... but... with many hands, and bright
> minds....there
> are possibilities...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:48 AM
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
>
> > Hi Bob and all,
> >
> > Did this with My Transformer I, when I received it from the Electric
> > Fuel
> > Propulsion Co. I had it dymo, and we declutch the motor and bring it up
> to
> > about 600 RPM and than let out the clutch while on the dymo.
> >
> > The motor is a GE 12 inch DC series with commutator poles. The motor tag
> > rated it a 165 volts at 175 amps at 6000 RPM.
> >
> > The batteries were 90 each 2.1 volt cobalt cells rated at 300 AH.
> >
> > The controller was a CableForm SCR unit at 850 amp rating.
> >
> > The battery pack of 189 volts can be charge up to a maximum of 249 point
> > something or lets say 250 volts which is about 2.77 volts per cell.
> Specific
> > Gravity was from 1.300 to 1.320 SG.
> >
> > After charging, the batteries would float back to about 205-208 volts.
> >
> > On the Dymo at 6000 RPM the voltage sag at 300 amps was only to 175
> > volts
> > or 52,500 watts.
> > Did not have a two amp meters one for the motor amps and one for the
> battery
> > amps. The Amp meter shunt was connected between the positive side of
> > the
> > battery and directly to the motor. A series type circuit, unlike the
> > way
> a
> > Zilla is now connected to this motor.
> >
> > So if you calculated the HP by the watts method than it would be about
> > 70
> > HP.
> >
> > But the Dymo read 45 HP!
> >
> > Now we than brought the motor down to a idle at 600 RPM and set the
> > Accelerator to violent acceleration. The CableForm accelerator had 4
> > settings from mild to violent.
> >
> > At 600 RPM we than fully depress the accelerator and it was like a semi
> > truck hitting you in the rear at 90 mph, but before it got up to any
> speed,
> > the current limits shut it down.
> >
> > We than retried while holding the amperes below 600 amps with a voltage
> sag
> > to 155 volts. That would be 93,000 watts or a calculated 125 HP.
> >
> > But the Dymo just show over 85 HP.
> >
> > The tires on this rig, was 670-15's high pressure type set at 50 PSI,
> 8-ply
> > tire. Did not have a very aggressive tread pattern.
> >
> > They used large nylon straps to hold the car back.
> >
> > I put it back to mild acceleration for my normal driving, because it was
> > a
> > violent, I would never get out of a parking spot, without destroying the
> > cars that was park in front and back of me.
> >
> > The violent setting cause the motor shaft adapter to start to crack of
> which
> > I had to replace 10 years later.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> >
> >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:36 PM
> > > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> > >
> > >
> > > > NO public comment!!!
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:08 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > >I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he
> > > > > >needs to get
> > > > > >going on his monster motor.
> > > > >
> > > > > What's the "monster motor" going to be?
> > > > >
> > > > Hi EVerybody;
> > >
> > > I think he, John, HAS his " Monster Motor" Gees! Whatdoya want!?
> He
> > > has the great advantage of light motors ready to torque their hearts
> out,
> > > light armatures, as well as the cool ability to series=parallel in the
> > > fine
> > > old RR tradition.
> > >
> > > I can see his reluctance to just throw it on the dyno, until he
> > > gets
> > > his
> > > control reliaibility sorted out. Going back thousands of years, like
> > > '71
> > > or
> > > so We at Electric Fuel Propulsion, of Bob Aronson fame , back before,
> when
> > > we actually MADE some stuff. Putting, I think it was, the converted
> > > Sportabout AMC 144 volt wagon on the dyno. It was scary! As the guy
> loaded
> > > down the dyno, the car tried to climb out of the rollers! Only thing
> that
> > > kept it from launching across the shop was the chains we hooked up so
> > > it
> > > couldn't! It put out rediculous amounts of low end horsepower, but
> staying
> > > in and on the rollers was tricky. EV's have 'way too much TORQUE to
> fairly
> > > measure HP as the tires and rollers can't handle it when you load it
> down.
> > > The EV thing of low end torque is tricky to do on a test thing that is
> > > made
> > > for screaming high RPM gassers.I can see John's concern not to just
> > > dive
> > > in
> > > on the dyno, just yet.
> > >
> > > John, when you go on the dyno, bring a Cam Corder, a damn strong
> tydown
> > > chain, and lets ring it out! Let the torque begin!
> > >
> > > Seeya
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been looking in the EVDL archives and on the web for rolling
resistance coefficients of available car and motorcycle tyres, and
have not found much. I have contacted several tyre companies and will
post any data here but I don't expect to get much back from them.
I have also asked a local tyre place which sells part-worn tyres, to
give me some e.g. popular brands with punctures or sidewall damage to
do comparison tests and hopefully calculate coe figures for them, but
that might take some time.
Does anyone have any numbers to share? All the tyre brochures say is
"20% less rolling resistance!" - compared to what?!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do you plan to test the tires?
Phil Marino
From: Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: low rolling resistance tyres
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:25:26 +0000
I have been looking in the EVDL archives and on the web for rolling
resistance coefficients of available car and motorcycle tyres, and
have not found much. I have contacted several tyre companies and will
post any data here but I don't expect to get much back from them.
I have also asked a local tyre place which sells part-worn tyres, to
give me some e.g. popular brands with punctures or sidewall damage to
do comparison tests and hopefully calculate coe figures for them, but
that might take some time.
Does anyone have any numbers to share? All the tyre brochures say is
"20% less rolling resistance!" - compared to what?!
_________________________________________________________________
Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Well, I have an old trailer hub that I could use. I would fix it to
a long beam and support the end on a pivot, the hub will have the test
tyre mounted and then I will use a spring balance to see how much
force is needed to start the tyre moving and keep it moving for a
short distance. I could load the beam with an appropriate weight.
The drawback is that the tyre is moving in a circle, albeit quite a
big one. I am open to suggestions though :)
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:55:43 -0500, Philip Marino
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How do you plan to test the tires?
>
> Phil Marino
>
> >From: Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: low rolling resistance tyres
> >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:25:26 +0000
> >
> >I have been looking in the EVDL archives and on the web for rolling
> >resistance coefficients of available car and motorcycle tyres, and
> >have not found much. I have contacted several tyre companies and will
> >post any data here but I don't expect to get much back from them.
> > I have also asked a local tyre place which sells part-worn tyres, to
> >give me some e.g. popular brands with punctures or sidewall damage to
> >do comparison tests and hopefully calculate coe figures for them, but
> >that might take some time.
> >Does anyone have any numbers to share? All the tyre brochures say is
> >"20% less rolling resistance!" - compared to what?!
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
how about
build a test rig go kart / bike
find a long hill
time yourself over a set distance
fit a different tire
try again
empirical data is always better than theory
admitedly this will only give you comparative data but
it seems we are only looking for which tyre is
1st,2nd,3rd etc
does any one really care about numerical statistics or
are we trying to find out which is best ?
please feel free to comment if you think this is a
stupid idea
if you are looking for a kart/hill/driver - here i am
just send me a big pile of tires and i'll gladly test
them out.
regards
reb
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> Well, I have an old trailer hub that I could use.
> I would fix it to
> a long beam and support the end on a pivot, the hub
> will have the test
> tyre mounted and then I will use a spring balance to
> see how much
> force is needed to start the tyre moving and keep it
> moving for a
> short distance. I could load the beam with an
> appropriate weight.
> The drawback is that the tyre is moving in a circle,
> albeit quite a
> big one. I am open to suggestions though :)
>
> On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:55:43 -0500, Philip Marino
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > How do you plan to test the tires?
> >
> > Phil Marino
> >
> > >From: Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > >To: [email protected]
> > >Subject: low rolling resistance tyres
> > >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:25:26 +0000
> > >
> > >I have been looking in the EVDL archives and on
> the web for rolling
> > >resistance coefficients of available car and
> motorcycle tyres, and
> > >have not found much. I have contacted several
> tyre companies and will
> > >post any data here but I don't expect to get much
> back from them.
> > > I have also asked a local tyre place which
> sells part-worn tyres, to
> > >give me some e.g. popular brands with punctures
> or sidewall damage to
> > >do comparison tests and hopefully calculate coe
> figures for them, but
> > >that might take some time.
> > >Does anyone have any numbers to share? All the
> tyre brochures say is
> > >"20% less rolling resistance!" - compared to
> what?!
> > >
> >
> >
>
_________________________________________________________________
> > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
> Search!
> >
>
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
> >
> >
>
>
___________________________________________________________
ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 300 AH 2.1 volt cells are design and made back in 70's by the Electric
Fuel Propulsion Company in Troy, Michingan. These cells are 16 in. tall by
6 in. long by 2.5 in. wide.
You normally received them install in the car, which are burn in lead links
all together. If you order them as a replacement, than they come
unassembled, where you must install the grids and top into the battery case.
Then you seal the battery tops to the case and burn in the post links.
You then mix the acid with water for 1.320 S.G. or more. When adding to the
cells, these will pull down to about 1.290 to 1.300 S.G.
The unassembled types cost $30.00 a cell at that time. Today they still make
several different sizes of one type that is shorter, so I can get it into my
EV. They are now known as the APOLLO Energy Systems. There web site is:
www.apolloenergysystems.com
The other battery I am using which has overall height of 12 inches with the
large heavy battery connectors that are just under a epoxy coated fiber
glass cover, are Trojan T-145's that are now rated at 260 AH instead of the
244 AH. The post are normally a flat 1 inch diameter pad with a connection
stud, which would not withstand the continuous high load for a EV such as
mind. It would be ok for a light EV or a golf cart.
I modified these post by installing a heavy larger taper post on both the
neg and pos terminal that is slight larger then a standard positive post.
This involves pulling the short SS studs and installing a larger and longer
SS stud with a L-lug welded on the head of these bolts.
A taper steel post mode is place on this pad and antimony lead which comes
in sticks melted by a long hot pencil type touch flame, that starts to melt
the pad base and then melting the stick lead which fills up the post mode to
form a taper post.
You can have this contracted out by some battery shops that have the
equipment. In many cases, if these shops are not in the area where you can
drive you EV there for maintenance, then you want these type of battery, you
will to learn how to do it you self.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "adam1tx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 12:05 AM
Subject: RE: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> Rich,
>
> What brand of batteries are you using (before and after) ?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 2:46 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
>
>
> > I don't think John knows about anything But Violent settings!!!
> > The dyno ....Roland.... short for Dynomometer...
> >
> OH, I left off the NO and went right to the MO.
>
> Also, when you reduce the Amp Hour rating and maximum charging rating of a
> battery, than don't you reduce the performance?
>
> I reduce the 300 amp pack at max charge to 250 volts on a 189 volt pack at
> 1.300 S.G. to 260 amp hour at a max charge to 232.5 at 1.275 S.G. on a 180
> volt pack.
>
> The float back voltage is now 189 volts and sags to 175 volts at only a
> 200
> battery amp. The batteries are rated at 800 amps.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Clearly shows that Watts into a motor and force out are not perfect!!!
> > And in a Brushed DC motor... they are quite a bit different.
> >
> > You have all your losses in the picture, as well as a %45 loss
> > Wow...
> >
> > %45 loss on the first pull and %47 loss on the second.
> > This is about what I am predicting on Series wound DC machines...
> > It should get a LOT worse when we go over 1000 amps, and be obsene at
> > over
> > 1750 amps...
> > but Fun!
> >
> > Alot of these losses can be reduced with just a minor amount of motor
> > improvements.
> > In most of our cases... it's not improvements that matter it's basic
> > Motor
> > sevice....Good Bearings?, full brush contact? Brushes set for planed
> > service
> > applications??? All the copper properley torqued and cleaned????
> >
> > I think I am going to have a shop full of U of Washington Students this
> > weekend... they want to play with my dyno. Maybe I will get them to help
> > set
> > it up and pull some real data? This could really help in the BS
> > reduction
> > Factor......
> >
> > I have not had the time... but... with many hands, and bright
> > minds....there
> > are possibilities...
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:48 AM
> > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> >
> >
> > > Hi Bob and all,
> > >
> > > Did this with My Transformer I, when I received it from the Electric
> > > Fuel
> > > Propulsion Co. I had it dymo, and we declutch the motor and bring it
> > > up
> > to
> > > about 600 RPM and than let out the clutch while on the dyno.
> > >
> > > The motor is a GE 12 inch DC series with commentator poles. The motor
> > > tag
> > > rated it a 165 volts at 175 amps at 6000 RPM.
> > >
> > > The batteries were 90 each 2.1 volt cobalt cells rated at 300 AH.
> > >
> > > The controller was a CableForm SCR unit at 850 amp rating.
> > >
> > > The battery pack of 189 volts can be charge up to a maximum of 249
> > > point
> > > something or lets say 250 volts which is about 2.77 volts per cell.
> > Specific
> > > Gravity was from 1.300 to 1.320 SG.
> > >
> > > After charging, the batteries would float back to about 205-208 volts.
> > >
> > > On the Dyno at 6000 RPM the voltage sag at 300 amps was only to 175
> > > volts
> > > or 52,500 watts.
> > > Did not have a two amp meters one for the motor amps and one for the
> > battery
> > > amps. The Amp meter shunt was connected between the positive side of
> > > the
> > > battery and directly to the motor. A series type circuit, unlike the
> > > way
> > a
> > > Zilla is now connected to this motor.
> > >
> > > So if you calculated the HP by the watts method than it would be about
> > > 70
> > > HP.
> > >
> > > But the Dyno read 45 HP!
> > >
> > > Now we than brought the motor down to a idle at 600 RPM and set the
> > > Accelerator to violent acceleration. The CableForm accelerator had 4
> > > settings from mild to violent.
> > >
> > > At 600 RPM we than fully depress the accelerator and it was like a
> > > semi
> > > truck hitting you in the rear at 90 mph, but before it got up to any
> > speed,
> > > the current limits shut it down.
> > >
> > > We than retried while holding the amperes below 600 amps with a
> > > voltage
> > sag
> > > to 155 volts. That would be 93,000 watts or a calculated 125 HP.
> > >
> > > But the Dyno just show over 85 HP.
> > >
> > > The tires on this rig, was 670-15's high pressure type set at 50 PSI,
> > 8-ply
> > > tire. Did not have a very aggressive tread pattern.
> > >
> > > They used large nylon straps to hold the car back.
> > >
> > > I put it back to mild acceleration for my normal driving, because it
> > > was
> > > a
> > > violent, I would never get out of a parking spot, without destroying
> > > the
> > > cars that was park in front and back of me.
> > >
> > > The violent setting cause the motor shaft adapter to start to crack of
> > which
> > > I had to replace 10 years later.
> > >
> > > Roland
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2005 8:35 AM
> > > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 4:36 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > NO public comment!!!
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2005 11:08 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: WarP 11 and 13 questions
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > >I really like John's Warp 8s they really do the job. But he
> > > > > > >needs to get
> > > > > > >going on his monster motor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > What's the "monster motor" going to be?
> > > > > >
> > > > > Hi EVerybody;
> > > >
> > > > I think he, John, HAS his " Monster Motor" Gees! Whatdoya
> > > > want!?
> > He
> > > > has the great advantage of light motors ready to torque their hearts
> > out,
> > > > light armatures, as well as the cool ability to series=parallel in
> > > > the
> > > > fine
> > > > old RR tradition.
> > > >
> > > > I can see his reluctance to just throw it on the dyno, until he
> > > > gets
> > > > his
> > > > control reliaibility sorted out. Going back thousands of years, like
> > > > '71
> > > > or
> > > > so We at Electric Fuel Propulsion, of Bob Aronson fame , back
> > > > before,
> > when
> > > > we actually MADE some stuff. Putting, I think it was, the converted
> > > > Sportabout AMC 144 volt wagon on the dyno. It was scary! As the guy
> > loaded
> > > > down the dyno, the car tried to climb out of the rollers! Only thing
> > that
> > > > kept it from launching across the shop was the chains we hooked up
> > > > so
> > > > it
> > > > couldn't! It put out rediculous amounts of low end horsepower, but
> > staying
> > > > in and on the rollers was tricky. EV's have 'way too much TORQUE to
> > fairly
> > > > measure HP as the tires and rollers can't handle it when you load it
> > down.
> > > > The EV thing of low end torque is tricky to do on a test thing that
> > > > is
> > > > made
> > > > for screaming high RPM gassers.I can see John's concern not to just
> > > > dive
> > > > in
> > > > on the dyno, just yet.
> > > >
> > > > John, when you go on the dyno, bring a Cam Corder, a damn strong
> > tydown
> > > > chain, and lets ring it out! Let the torque begin!
> > > >
> > > > Seeya
> > > >
> > > > Bob
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Richard,
That's basically what I'm doing, except I only need one tyre, and
eliminate brake, steering and transmission drag, air resistance,
driver influence, etc etc. Doing comparisons on the road is OK to say
"these tyres are better than this one" but it's not giving me a number
to put into calculations.
Also, car tyres don't fit very well on karts or bikes :)
Regards
Evan.
On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 14:09:19 +0000 (GMT), richard ball
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> how about
> build a test rig go kart / bike
> find a long hill
> time yourself over a set distance
> fit a different tire
> try again
> empirical data is always better than theory
> admitedly this will only give you comparative data but
> it seems we are only looking for which tyre is
> 1st,2nd,3rd etc
> does any one really care about numerical statistics or
> are we trying to find out which is best ?
> please feel free to comment if you think this is a
> stupid idea
> if you are looking for a kart/hill/driver - here i am
> just send me a big pile of tires and i'll gladly test
> them out.
> regards
> reb
>
>
> --- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > Well, I have an old trailer hub that I could use.
> > I would fix it to
> > a long beam and support the end on a pivot, the hub
> > will have the test
> > tyre mounted and then I will use a spring balance to
> > see how much
> > force is needed to start the tyre moving and keep it
> > moving for a
> > short distance. I could load the beam with an
> > appropriate weight.
> > The drawback is that the tyre is moving in a circle,
> > albeit quite a
> > big one. I am open to suggestions though :)
> >
> > On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 07:55:43 -0500, Philip Marino
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > How do you plan to test the tires?
> > >
> > > Phil Marino
> > >
> > > >From: Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > >Reply-To: [email protected]
> > > >To: [email protected]
> > > >Subject: low rolling resistance tyres
> > > >Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2005 12:25:26 +0000
> > > >
> > > >I have been looking in the EVDL archives and on
> > the web for rolling
> > > >resistance coefficients of available car and
> > motorcycle tyres, and
> > > >have not found much. I have contacted several
> > tyre companies and will
> > > >post any data here but I don't expect to get much
> > back from them.
> > > > I have also asked a local tyre place which
> > sells part-worn tyres, to
> > > >give me some e.g. popular brands with punctures
> > or sidewall damage to
> > > >do comparison tests and hopefully calculate coe
> > figures for them, but
> > > >that might take some time.
> > > >Does anyone have any numbers to share? All the
> > tyre brochures say is
> > > >"20% less rolling resistance!" - compared to
> > what?!
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > > Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN
> > Search!
> > >
> >
> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://powerelectronics.com/news/electric-pickup-batteries/
Electric Pickup Trucks Test Mettle of Li-ion Batteries
Feb 2, 2005 10:53 AM
Edited by PETech Staff
Valence Technology, developer of the Saphion
large-format lithium-ion (Li-ion) battery technology,
has received an order from UQM Technologies, a
developer of alternative energy technologies, for its
Valence Technology�s U-Charge Power Systems. UQM is
evaluating 30 U-Charge systems for use in an advanced
half-ton electric powered pickup truck that they are
developing for the U.S. Air Force (USAF). U-Charge is
a family of energy storage systems based on Valence�s
Saphion Li-ion technology.
UQM develops and manufactures electric and hybrid
electric propulsion systems for a variety of on-road
and off-road vehicles. Until recently, the only option
for the hybrid/electric vehicle industry was the NiMH
rechargeable battery. Valence is the first company to
commercialize a large-format phosphate-based Li-ion
product. UQM selected the U-Charge Power System based
on its cost effectiveness and ability to deliver on
performance as well as safety�all specific
requirements of the military. UQM is in the technology
demonstration phase of the program to prove the
electric vehicle concept.
"We selected Valence's U-Charge product, a high
performing Li-ion battery, which we expect will
significantly outperform the nickel metal hydride
battery solutions used in electric vehicle
applications in the past," said William G. Rankin,
president and CEO, UQM Technologies Inc. "The ability
of our combined technologies to overcome some of the
limitations of previously developed electric vehicles
could potentially lead to a resurgence of interest in
zero emission vehicles of all types, from electric
trucks to unmanned vehicles," continued Rankin.
Increasingly, the military is seeking lighter and
quieter vehicles to lessen its impact on the
environment and enable greater mobility for large
troop deployments. Switching to electric applications
will result in the reduction of fuel usage and the
amount of waste in landfills.
For more information, visit www.uqm.com or
www.valence.com.
--- End Message ---
