EV Digest 4088
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Flooded NiCDs in parallel
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) New EV vendor on EVDL
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Motor controller 'idea' for sale on eBay
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: No bids on the Siemens inverter and motor on Ebay
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Smart EV
by Ivan Workman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: 42-volt starting batteries
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: A Drinking Problem
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) K&W BC-20 Question
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 42-volt starting batterie-long and partly OT
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Smart EV
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Motor controller 'idea' for sale on eBay
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Smart EV
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: K&W BC-20 Question
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Motor controller 'idea' for sale on eBay
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Motor controller 'idea' for sale on eBay
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: Sep-Ex supply-and-demand question, comments
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: OT Zap smart cars
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
---Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Despite horrible reputation of ZAP I don't care about, I'd do it
> for fixed fee - for learning experience if not anything else.
>
> But when they offered stock shares as a apyment instead,
> that was the end of conversation. They never sounded serious.
>
This seems to be a recurring theme - offer ZAP stock options to make the real EV
stuff, but spend real $$$ to churn out PR. Seems we've seen a lot of bad
decisions by EV companies in past couple decades - my mistake was buying ZAP
stock just after the creator of the zappy left.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, that was grumpy. And kind of pointless as Joe answered it already
saying it could be done.
Seth
On Feb 10, 2005, at 11:17 PM, Seth Allen wrote:
This has been definitely been answered before by those who have tried.
But maybe people could actually read replies to posts...
Seth
On Feb 10, 2005, at 12:39 AM, Edward Ang wrote:
If you find it hard to believe one way or the other,
just do a test with 2 shunts and 2 E-meters and watch
the current sharing behavior. You could have the 2
shunts/E-meter always connected just in case there are
long term problems.
Then, tell us one way or the other.
Ed Ang
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
No one has authoratatively said yes. Some say not
no. I am totally
confused and went to one string on a different
vehicle. Lawrence Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 6:56 PM
Subject: Flooded NiCDs in parallel
Quick verify: Can one run strings of flooded NiCDs
in parallel?
Chris
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:11 AM -0700 on 2/10/05, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Scarily enough, that /is/ cheap for the American market. 12 - 15
grand would make it cheaper than almost anything short of the
ultra-cheap Asian econo-boxes like the low end Kias.
Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn all have cars available for less than $12,000.
In fact chevy has one for less than $10,000.
Chevy Aveo Starting at $9,995 Price as shown $13,405
Pontiac Sunfire Base MSRP: $11,460, As shown:$12,255
Saturn ION*1 Base M.S.R.P. $11,995
Note how they all wind up being 12 grand or more. I'd never even
heard of an Aveo until I just went to Chevy's website. I bet I could
roll onto the local Chevy dealer's lot and they'd have 2 - 5 of them
max. And not one priced under the "As Shown As" price.
Hyundai and Kia both offer sub $10K, and toyota has at least one for
just over $10K. There are about 40 different cars and trucks
available for less than $15k.
Call around to some of those brand's dealers and try getting quotes
for cars. See how many you could actually get for the "MSRP". I've
never heard of anyone doing so.
Considering how small and light the Smart is, $12-15K seems a little steep
to me.
How exactly is either small or light necessarily a bad thing?
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm interested guys. Why not. I can see it if there is no BMS. Were they
offering stock as payment? LR........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: OT Zap smart cars
At 04:32 PM 2/10/05 -0800, you wrote:
Gary Starr actually asked me to do it with LiIons, delivering Smart
(and labor if needed) to my door.
Didn't go any further than couple of phone calls and emails.
Victor
Yeah, they asked us, too, but we declined.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could be a big rheostat or a giant selector switch. I never would have
thought selling something to someone was the same as sharing it with the
world. Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 9:57 PM
Subject: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
"I am selling today nothing more than an idea that is working out really
good in my electric vehicle. No plans, no parts, no diagrams, just the basic
idea that I have had for some time and finally got around to building one.
My idea will explain how anyone could build a controller that anyone could
afford and build themselves with no electronic training. I have given up on
trying to patent this idea and wish to share it with the world. My home
built controller is not made of relays or contactors or electronic
circuitry. I am pulling 500 amps at 96 volts with this controller and it is
virtually indestructable. Very good control from 0 rpm to motor max. The one
I am using is only my 2nd prototype. You could continue the design. Idea
will be sent via email with pictures."
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=795364754
7
>
> I'd love a controller that I could build myself, but "My home built
controller
> is not made of relays or contactors or electronic circuitry" - maybe, but
at
> what kind of efficiency?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Folks
Don't ask me why Cloud Electric Vehicles has not been on the EVDL before. I
just work here :^D
One week now as of Friday.
So... I suspect there are some here who are not aware of Cloud Electric.
Well then... you may want to visit www.cloudelectric.com and the "new" site,
www.dcelectricsupply.com
I am now the one dealing with inquiries directed to this address-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
We carry a wide variety of vehicles and EV components .
From small to large, mild to wild, (but not Wilde :^), we do in-house EV
conversions and custom electrathon racers.
Competitive prices, Paypal, major credit cards, yada, yada, yada.
_end shameless promotion_
more later...
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.cloudelectric.com
www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder if it might be some sort of variable water resistor? The guy
never makes any claims that his idea is actually efficient...
--chris
Mark Thomasson said:
> Could be a big rheostat or a giant selector switch. I never would have
> thought selling something to someone was the same as sharing it with the
> world. Mark T.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 9:57 PM
> Subject: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
>
> "I am selling today nothing more than an idea that is working out really
> good in my electric vehicle. No plans, no parts, no diagrams, just the
> basic
> idea that I have had for some time and finally got around to building one.
> My idea will explain how anyone could build a controller that anyone could
> afford and build themselves with no electronic training. I have given up
> on
> trying to patent this idea and wish to share it with the world. My home
> built controller is not made of relays or contactors or electronic
> circuitry. I am pulling 500 amps at 96 volts with this controller and it
> is
> virtually indestructable. Very good control from 0 rpm to motor max. The
> one
> I am using is only my 2nd prototype. You could continue the design. Idea
> will be sent via email with pictures."
>
>>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=795364754
> 7
>>
>> I'd love a controller that I could build myself, but "My home built
> controller
>> is not made of relays or contactors or electronic circuitry" - maybe,
>> but
> at
>> what kind of efficiency?
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 22:57:46 +0100, Evan Tuer wrote:
> 0-10g/km? That's a bit better than the Diesel one, isn't it Emil? :)
Yes, of course. :-)
I would love to own one. But the range is a bit to small for my daily
commute. I would need 150 km at least. The other problem is that they
currently don't want to sell it out of Tessin, a district in
switzerland.
> (so I guess Switzerland has all hydro power or something)
60 % hydro, 40 % nuclear
Cheers,
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would guess that most people simply e-mail the seller and ask. The few
times that I have listed stuff with a reserve I have had people do this to
me.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:32 PM 2/10/05 -0800, you wrote:
>Gary Starr actually asked me to do it with LiIons,
delivering Smart
>(and labor if needed) to my door.
>
>Didn't go any further than couple of phone calls and
emails.
>
>Victor
Yeah, they asked us, too, but we declined.
Shari Prange
They asked me too, but, I also declined. I did get to
drive the gas Smart in Santa Ana, CA on Feb.2, 2005.
Peppy for a small car. 0-60mph in 10 secs. Punching
the throttle, it loses power everytime it has to
change to a higher gear.
Ivan Workman
(909) 964-3488
Riker Electric Vehicles
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today!
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Furniss wrote:
"They are offering them to fleets for testing, the boss wants them for the
120 volt AC outlet in the bed.
I was at the Allison transmission plant in September and they said things
were still a go, we expect to see some this year."
This is different than what the group I am involved in was told. Be really
interesting if it happens. Both to see the truck hit the road, and to see
the political fall out of them not being up front with my industry's think
tank. How lessons are soon forgotten. But anyway, I am really interested in
seeing the results.
Peter wrote: "Now it's TWO guys, don't you love how these myths spread? (see
earlier
posts on this topic)"
I thought it sounded kind of stupid. We had read a printed version of this,
so thought it might have some credibility, LOL. I have no idea how to search
the archives, heck this is my first time being able to quote people.
Lee Hart wrote:
"I think 24v is the logical next move for cars. Change everything to 24v,
and eliminate the 12v system. Every part they need -- lights, relays,
motors, switches, fuses, etc. are already designed and available."
I thought 24 volt lights were not very shock resistant. I think most 24volt
systems use 12volt lighting. I could be wrong, I will look into it further
today.
"Now, if they wanted to keep using 12v fuses on 36v, no wonder they fail
dramatically! Most 12v fuses are junk; made with flammable plastics,
cheap metal alloys, and worthless fuseholders. They even melt and start
fires on 12v!"
I have to agree to a point. There are 48volt forklifts and golf carts all
over North America, they have to have fuses. The pictures and video we seen
was pretty dramatic, they were good size fuses too, not your little
automotive type fuses. It was used going from the battery to the rest of the
system. I still haven't figured it all out in my head, i.e. what load they
had it on when it was blowing up. The explanation was the fuse blew every
time a mechanic went to disconnect the 42volt battery pack. Doesn't make
sense to me, but is that surprising?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 08:16:20 -0500, Raymond Knight
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think most 24volt
> systems use 12volt lighting. I could be wrong, I will look into it further
> today.
Lee is right, 24V systems are extremely prevalent. I regularly used
to work on machinery that had about a 2kW load just for the (24V)
lighting. Almost any accessory you can think of is already available
in a 24V version.
On the other hand, perhaps the currents would get a bit high when you
are talking about accelerating large trucks with starter/alternator
"hybrid" devices.
>
> I have to agree to a point. There are 48volt forklifts and golf carts all
> over North America, they have to have fuses. The pictures and video we seen
> was pretty dramatic, they were good size fuses too, not your little
> automotive type fuses. It was used going from the battery to the rest of the
> system. I still haven't figured it all out in my head, i.e. what load they
> had it on when it was blowing up. The explanation was the fuse blew every
> time a mechanic went to disconnect the 42volt battery pack. Doesn't make
> sense to me, but is that surprising?
It sounds like a propaganda exercise from the same company who brought
you the EV1.. and then took it away again on the pretence of faulty
chargers.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Chris Tromley wrote:
>
>
> >
> > This gets back to a question I've raised before. How hard is it to
> > make a battery? Any product has two main ingredients: what you do,
> > and how you do it. The "how" is probably not hard. The materials
> > should be available, and anything a hobbyist can't do
> should be easy
> > to contract out. Even in small quantities. Even thin film metal
> > deposition. The "what" is more in the realm of the
> electrochemists,
> > but I'm thinking someone with an electrochemical background
> could use
> > the patents as a starting point and come up with something
> racers and
> > hobbyists would value.
>
> If you could figure out what and how, you will just become
> another ordinary battery manufacturer.
Well, the whole enterprise would be rather pointless if there was a
manufacturer actually making these high performance batteries. They aren't,
and EVs have suffered for it. They aren't likely to, either. Battery EVs
are too small a market. I'm open to other suggestions on how to get a
really high power density battery into the hands of the EV racers.
> If you want to only make a battery for yourself, set up costs
> will far exceed the cost of the most exotic battery you can buy.
This seems a rather strange comment coming from someone who built an AC
powered EV using LiIon batteries and supercaps in his own garage, something
that even the multi-billion dollar major automakers have never offered to
the public. Weren't the setup costs astronomical?
> Same if you want to make a one off nice plastic enclosure
> case (like those for GPS'es) and order the form for injection
> molding to be used once or twice.
Why would you need a fancy injection-molded case? If you really wanted one,
you could disassemble worn-out Optimas. More likely you would use cheap and
available polypropylene lab ware with minor modifications, or some other
approach. The battery enclosures we see on mass-produced batteries today
only look the way they do because that's what you can do in volume. The
performance of a battery has little dependence on whether its case was
custom designed or made from Tupperware.
> I work for a manufacturer which uses clean room environment.
> If I'd be in charge and some one comes to me asking to make
> one off thing, I'd most certainly ignore such request even
> thiugh technically it is not difficult to execute. Not worth
> to bother. And, you can't have clean [enough] room in your
> garage, which is *required* for more-less decent batteries.
I've also worked for a manufacturer with a clean room and metal deposition
equipment. They would not have taken on such an outside job because doing
so would have put their own production at risk. But through that project I
learned that there are contract houses that specialize in such work. When
you consider the scope of processing enough material for an entire pack, you
realize that would be plenty to "bother" with.
Also, that former employer later started making some of their excess
production capacity (not metal deposition) available to outside clients.
You'd be surprised what's available if you ask.
> Not to discourage you, but align with reality.
> Now, welcome to still try if you like - there is nothing
> to stop anyone from trying, it may even work, but I think it
> is better to know ahead of time what are you getting into
> to make more educated decision.
I'm not discouraged, but then I was never personally in a position to pursue
this. For others I think it's more productive to realize the extent to
which reality can be what you make it. Saying something is impractical for
a hobbyist simply because you can't do it the way major manufacturers do it
is both overly pessimistic and misleading. How does your ACRX compare in
overall performance and usefulness to a RAV 4EV or a (now extinct) EV+?
Most of building a battery is not high-tech. The parts that are can be
procured from companies that specialize in those processes. The
availability of high-power batteries would boost the promotion of EVs, so
this is certainly worth looking at. Sorry, I just don't see any major
barriers on the production side. Electrochemically I'm not so sure. Any
electrochemists out there?
Chris
**********************************************
Argue for your limitations, and they're yours.
**********************************************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul,
Thanks for the help. (Mine are charging to a bit over 8V). I think I'll
pre-check the caps prior to installing the rest of the STM-180's. I'd hate
to vent one because a cell wasn't filling properly. It would be nice to
have some type of indicating water level cap though.
Thanks, Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Wallace" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: A Drinking Problem
> Mark,
> are you charging those nicads separately from the lead acid cells? The
> charging protocall is completely different. I you charge them in series
> with the lead acid batteries, you are probably under charging them as
> they want to go to a very high voltage, depending on temperature, at the
> end of charge. At the end of charge, the blocks will be at close to
> 9vdc each in cold weather. My STM5-180 batteries, 24 total, use about 3
> gallons of water every 250ah of over charge. For me, this is about
> every 3 weeks. You must put back 20% more than you took out in terms of
> amp hours for each charge cycle. You must keep careful track of the
> overcharge amp hours so that you know when to water. You must water at
> exactly the correct time, 30 to 45 minutes after the end of charge. Any
> other time and you will over water. If you over water, then the next
> charge cycle will push electrolyte out of the cells, very bad. The
> watering system is set up to close each cell and allow water to move to
> the next without displacing electrolyte from the cells. I can't see the
> sides of my cells either, but I haven't noticed any problems with the
> watering or unusual battery pack behavior over the years.
>
> For the one cell that isn't filling properly, you might try removing the
> cap and running water through it to see if you can clear any
> obstructions. I haven't done this, but maybe Rod Hower has. You can
> get new caps from SAFT.
>
> Paul Wallace
>
> '91 Chevy S-10 full of SAFT nicads
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw Jeff's K&W BC-20 on Ebay. Jeff wasn't sure about a could questions I
had, so is there anyone on the list who has or knows about a BC-20 that
could answer the following:
1) Does the LB-20 front-end make the BC-20 an isolated charger?
2) With the LB-20 attached, if you turn the BC-20's voltage dial to MAX,
what is the voltage that the BC-20 will output during the CV part of the
charge?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:31:13 -0500, Chris Tromley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not discouraged, but then I was never personally in a position to pursue
> this. For others I think it's more productive to realize the extent to
> which reality can be what you make it. Saying something is impractical for
> a hobbyist simply because you can't do it the way major manufacturers do it
> is both overly pessimistic and misleading. How does your ACRX compare in
> overall performance and usefulness to a RAV 4EV or a (now extinct) EV+?
Quite - or look at the Cedric Lynch's motors. You couldn't buy
anything quite like them in terms of performance, and he originally
designed it as a one-off to compete in a solar race, I believe.
If you have the commitment, almost anything is possible. This is what
being an EV hobbiest is about :)
> Most of building a battery is not high-tech. The parts that are can be
> procured from companies that specialize in those processes. The
> availability of high-power batteries would boost the promotion of EVs, so
> this is certainly worth looking at. Sorry, I just don't see any major
> barriers on the production side. Electrochemically I'm not so sure. Any
> electrochemists out there?
I remember reading a few years ago, that some of our highly respected
list members once looked very closely at just this proposition for
Li-Ion batteries. It seems they chose not to go for it but IIRC, the
technical hurdles would not have been insurmountable for a basement
lab operation.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LOL, thanks Victor!
> They probably each stuck one lead from the same multimeter in their
> skin and died in instant they shook hands :-)
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>>>US Navy released a memo telling mechanics not to insert the test leads
>>>from
>>>a multi-meter into your skin to check internal resistance, as two guys
>>>died
>>>from the 9volt battery.
>>
>>
>> Now it's TWO guys, don't you love how these myths spread? (see earlier
>> posts on ths topic)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe it's the cute little idea I had about 7 years ago.
Use (essentially) a motor stator with a moving brush as a PWM
controller. You spin the stator as fast as you can with a small motor, and
move one of the brushes around to adjust the pulse width.
At 07:57 PM 2/10/2005, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7953647547
I'd love a controller that I could build myself, but "My home built controller
is not made of relays or contactors or electronic circuitry" - maybe, but at
what kind of efficiency?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>Considering how small and light the Smart is, $12-15K seems a little
>> steep
>>to me.
>
> How exactly is either small or light necessarily a bad thing?
I never said it was a "bad" thing.
As Lee and others have pointed out from time to time, the cost of any give
item is normally directly related to it's weight, i.e. something with
twice as much raw materials will logically cost twice as much, and
something with half the raw materials would cost 1/2 as much.
Noteable exceptions being items made from expensive or exotic materials,
items that require particularly expensive manufacturing processes (carbon
fiber for example), precision manufacturing, hand crafted, etc.
The smart doesn't use particularily exoctic materials, I don't believe
it's hand crafted(?), there is nothing particularly unique about it
manufacturing process.
So given that it has far less raw materials than your average "econobox",
I would naturally expect it to cost less, not the same or slightly more.
That's all I was saying.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:03 PM 2/10/05 -0800, you wrote:
I'm interested guys. Why not. I can see it if there is no BMS. Were
they offering stock as payment?
We didn't get that far in discussions, but that's what I was
anticipating. Can't buy groceries with stock certificates.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Gary Starr actually asked me to do it with LiIons,
delivering Smart
>(and labor if needed) to my door.
>
>Didn't go any further than couple of phone calls and
emails.
>
>Victor
Yeah, they asked us, too, but we declined.
Shari Prange
They asked me too, but, I also declined.
Ok, who HAVEN'T they asked?
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, no electronic circuitry?
Perhaps he's using a "squishy" battery. Ya know, squish it together so
it's tall and thin for high voltage and squish it down so it's low and
flat for low voltage.
> Could be a big rheostat or a giant selector switch. I never would have
> thought selling something to someone was the same as sharing it with the
> world. Mark T.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 9:57 PM
> Subject: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
>
> "I am selling today nothing more than an idea that is working out really
> good in my electric vehicle. No plans, no parts, no diagrams, just the
> basic
> idea that I have had for some time and finally got around to building one.
> My idea will explain how anyone could build a controller that anyone could
> afford and build themselves with no electronic training. I have given up
> on
> trying to patent this idea and wish to share it with the world. My home
> built controller is not made of relays or contactors or electronic
> circuitry. I am pulling 500 amps at 96 volts with this controller and it
> is
> virtually indestructable. Very good control from 0 rpm to motor max. The
> one
> I am using is only my 2nd prototype. You could continue the design. Idea
> will be sent via email with pictures."
>
>>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=795364754
> 7
>>
>> I'd love a controller that I could build myself, but "My home built
> controller
>> is not made of relays or contactors or electronic circuitry" - maybe,
>> but
> at
>> what kind of efficiency?
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, who HAVEN'T they asked?
Interestingly enough I remember a number of SMARTs went for sale here in
MD because they were prototype conversions that didn't work out. They
used SAFT packs (which went for 5-7k each) and AC motor sets.
Any reason why they are so complex to convert?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:48:23 -0800, John G. Lussmyer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maybe it's the cute little idea I had about 7 years ago.
> Use (essentially) a motor stator with a moving brush as a PWM
> controller. You spin the stator as fast as you can with a small motor, and
> move one of the brushes around to adjust the pulse width.
I can't quite see how that would work..?
But an adaptation of an old idea, you could use a motor driven
contactor, with mechanical timing so that the "on" period could be
adjusted from 0-100%, a bit like on a 24hr timer switch. With a fast,
modern flyback diode and sufficient snubbing of the contacts, it might
last a little while :)
It might even be the easier option if you had no electronic knowledge
at all, and were still determined to build you own controller!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 1) Does the LB-20 front-end make the BC-20 an isolated charger?
No. The LB-20 is an "Autotransformer", i.e. a center-tapped inductor.
> 2) With the LB-20 attached, if you turn the BC-20's voltage dial to MAX,
> what is the voltage that the BC-20 will output during the CV part of the
> charge?
Going from memory here.
I know you can charge a 132V pack and I'm pretty sure you can charge a
144V pack, don't know about above that.
You also have to change a resistor inside the BC-20 that sets the max
voltage. You can actually go to voltages higher than what is stated in
the manual, you just have to calculate what the resistor needs to be (the
manual lists the specific resistor values for normal pack voltage ranges).
I think the listed values stop at 120V nominal.
FWIW when setup for 120V nominal pack voltage, you can get the charger to
put out over 160V into a load (pack).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Ok, who HAVEN'T they asked?
>
> Interestingly enough I remember a number of SMARTs went for sale here in
> MD because they were prototype conversions that didn't work out. They
> used SAFT packs (which went for 5-7k each) and AC motor sets.
>
> Any reason why they are so complex to convert?
>
They didn't die because of complications, they died because California
caved in on their ZEV mandate and the automanufacturer (GM?) that was
funding the development pulled their funding.
Speaking of which, I happened to end up with one of the
motor/controller/DC-DC converter setups from these folks.
Has anyone had any success getting Solectria to reprogram their controller?
They never respond to my emails and when I called them, they just told me
to email them (sigh).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Maybe it's the cute little idea I had about 7 years ago.
> Use (essentially) a motor stator with a moving brush as a PWM
> controller. You spin the stator as fast as you can with a small motor,
> and
> move one of the brushes around to adjust the pulse width.
>
I assume you mean "Rotor" which is the rotating part of the motor and not
"Stator" which is the 'Stat'ionary part of the motor.
Specifically I'm guessing you mean the commutator portion of the rotor
(the bit with the copper bars that spin under the brushes)
Variable duration rotating comutators probably date back over 100 years.
The problem with them is that unless you use some "electronic components",
i.e. a snubber network, they tend to burn out pretty quickly from arcing.
On an "ideal" brushed DC motor the point where the commutator segment
first touches the brushes occures at a zero current potential, as the
segment moves under the brushthe current ramps up and then drops off until
the segment breaks contact with the back side of the brush at a zero
current point again.
As I understand it this happens because the coil on the rotor is moving
through the stationary magnetic field created by the stator and is
generating a back EMF that matches the applied voltage at the point where
the com segment and brush first contact. As the rotor continues to move
the rotor coil moves out of the stator field and the back EMF drops so it
starts drawing current and "pulls" the rotor around to the next stator
field.
Of course this "sweet spot" moves depending on the applied current and (I
think) the motors RPM. That's why "real" motors as opposed to "ideal'
motor have problems with arcing and why folks like Denise and Rish(?) are
building moveable brush rigging to try to keep their brushes inside the
sweet spot when drag racing.
What a long way of saying that you're probably right about what this guy
is selling. It's not a new idea and with today's technology it's not even
a particularly good idea.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, here is a better description of what I was trying to say:
http://www.casadelgato.com/EV/CheapPWM.htm
At 08:20 AM 2/11/2005, Evan Tuer wrote:
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 07:48:23 -0800, John G. Lussmyer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maybe it's the cute little idea I had about 7 years ago.
> Use (essentially) a motor stator with a moving brush as a PWM
> controller. You spin the stator as fast as you can with a small motor, and
> move one of the brushes around to adjust the pulse width.
I can't quite see how that would work..?
But an adaptation of an old idea, you could use a motor driven
contactor, with mechanical timing so that the "on" period could be
adjusted from 0-100%, a bit like on a 24hr timer switch. With a fast,
modern flyback diode and sufficient snubbing of the contacts, it might
last a little while :)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup. I was thinking of building one of these for a little garden tractor
back when Cursit controllers were hideously expensive, and I actually had
some free time.
Nowadays, the controller looks cheap compared to my time.
At 09:08 AM 2/11/2005, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I assume you mean "Rotor" which is the rotating part of the motor and not
"Stator" which is the 'Stat'ionary part of the motor.
Specifically I'm guessing you mean the commutator portion of the rotor
(the bit with the copper bars that spin under the brushes)
Variable duration rotating comutators probably date back over 100 years.
The problem with them is that unless you use some "electronic components",
i.e. a snubber network, they tend to burn out pretty quickly from arcing.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:07:22 -0800, John G. Lussmyer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So, here is a better description of what I was trying to say:
>
> http://www.casadelgato.com/EV/CheapPWM.htm
Oh yeah, cute :)
has anyone tried it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar, thanks for the real-life data points. Hopefully my interpoles
will do their job. Having a constant power regime, like AC, would be
ideal, but it would still be a victory to be above a series torque
curve. Heck, I'll consider it a victory if the car just moves at all
:) .
--- Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm just now repairing an EVcort. 108V, regen up to 150A on the
> battery. Drives up to 400A. Sep Ex GE motor 11" motor. Custom Soleq
>
> controller.
> You don't get a AC powerband and I can hear the brush arcing at
> higher power (there is no high power) above 3 Krpm. Sep ex gives
> you
> no more top end power than field weakening a series motor. I'm
> guessing 10 to 15% but that's just a WAG. Of course you can get
> more
> than that at very low efficiencies but last time I did that the
> Commutator bars of that golf car ended up all over the road! :-)
>
> I think it's a nice system, and the car is very nice to drive, but
> as
> with my previous experience with Sep Ex and Regen systems it's got
> tradeoffs. Ther is no holy grail here. In this case it's a low
> voltage system, there is a large blower to keep the brushes cool,
> and
> the brushes are worn out at 12,000 miles.
> Maybe if you tweak the system just right it would last..... Much
> experimenting could be done...
>
> This is not meant to discourage you. Just to put a little caution
> in
> your goals.
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> 0-10g/km? That's a bit better than the Diesel one,
> isn't it Emil? :)
>
> (so I guess Switzerland has all hydro power or
> something)
primarily hydro and nuclear (40%). Switzerland burns
very little fossil fuel for electricity generation
(because they consider energy self-reliance to be a
central element in their neutrality).
swiss, and proud.
~fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
> How hard is it to make a battery?
This question is very similar to "how hard is it to build a car" or
"...a boat" "...an airplane." The answer is that if you want to make
something cheap and beautiful and powerful that excels in many
directions at once, it is *very* hard. But, if you are picking just one
parameter, and want to maximize it to the exclusion of all else, then it
is much easier. People build cars and boats and airplanes all the time.
Their overall result is not as good as what you can buy. But, they can
choose to excel in ONE category and let the rest go where they may. Thus
we have show cars that are absolutely gorgeous, but can't move. And
dragsters that can do 1/4 mile in a few seconds, but would be impossible
to drive to work.
I think you'll find the same is true with batteries. Is your goal to win
a drag race? Then, you can probably build a battery better at this than
any commercial product, because you can ignore life, amphour capacity,
and cost.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>> If you want to only make a battery for yourself, set up costs
>> will far exceed the cost of the most exotic battery you can buy.
Well... perhaps. Ovonic ordered out for most of their materials
processing, and then hand-built all their nimh cells. They wound up with
a pretty good battery. A guy in his garage could do it, too... if he
knew what he wanted and had $10,000 or so to put into it. It's
expensive, but not out of line for a top-performing dragster. And Ovonic
charged *more* for their batteries that it would cost you (because they
paid people by the hour to do what you would do yourself).
> This seems a rather strange comment coming from someone who built
> an AC powered EV using LiIon batteries and supercaps in his own
> garage, something that even the multi-billion dollar major
> automakers have never offered to the public. Weren't the setup
> costs astronomical?
Precisely! Knowledge is an incredibly powerful "solvent"! Once you know
how, seemingly impossible things become easy. A guy in his garage really
*can* do things that huge corporations can't do. Sure, it will cost
more... but not enough more to stop you.
> Any electrochemists out there?
That is your first step. Find someone who knows a *lot* about battery
design and manufacture, and brainstorm. Pay him if you can. Read
everything you can get. There are classic texts for older types (lead
acid, nickel-cadmium, nickel-iron) that document every single step of
the process in excruciating detail.
I've only known and worked with one electrochemist. He designed the
silver-cadmium cells used in many of the NASA missions of the 1970's
(such as the electric car they drove on the moon). These are incredible
batteries, but largely ignored due to the high cost of silver, and
relatively short cycle life.
So, perhaps a place to start would be with some aircraft starting
nicads, and rebuild them with silver replacing the nickel.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
