EV Digest 4089
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Controller bypass question- GE control
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) AC Motors and Reverse
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Smart EV
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Smart EV
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Smart EV
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Smart EV
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: AC Motors and Reverse
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Smart EV
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Regen with direct-connection of motor to battery, WAS: Motor controller
"idea" for sale on eBay
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) What are the upper voltage limits of DC motors?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Regen with direct-connection of motor to battery, WAS: Motor
controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Maniac Mazda more Street than White Zombie? OT: Zombie Range
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: What are the upper voltage limits of DC motors?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Smart EV
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: K&W BC-20 Question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
27) Re: 42-volt starting batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Oh Boy this is a good one....
About 1000 ftlbs Assuming a %50 sag of your pack, and a short curcuit
battery rating of about 3500 amps.
You need to tell us a LOT more about how many amps your can actually make
and the RPM that you come off the controller and onto the bypass circuit.
Wayland does this at about 1500 rpm and peggs a 1500 amp meter.
The peak torque is a function of how many amps you can actually draw at the
RPM you are running, and how much of that amps can flow without sending your
brushes into a complete fireball.
The 1000 ftlbs assumes perfect commutation. This almost never happens, and
surely will be very hard to do with a 300 volt pack.
Another answer is more than you can handle!!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: Controller bypass question- GE control
> >From: "Rod Hower"
>
> >I think I still have an extra chip laying around if
> >you want to break your transmission.
>
> It's rated at 600 lb-ft:
>
> http://ddperformance.com/3550tko5spd.htm
>
> How much torque can a 9" Warp put out using the bypass and a
> 300 volt setup?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Easy question for those more knowledgeable than myself:
Can you run an AC motor backwards? In other words, if I build an AC conversion
w/out a transmission will I be able to back up?
I know the arguments against doing this, just curious about this detail.
Thanks in advance
Carl Clifford
Denver
;-| grinless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
>> Maybe it's the cute little idea I had about 7 years ago.
>> Use (essentially) a motor stator with a moving brush as a
>> PWM controller. You spin the stator as fast as you can with
>> a small motor, and move one of the brushes around to adjust
>> the pulse width.
Evan Tuer wrote:
> I can't quite see how that would work..?
It's usually done with a tapered wedge for a "commutator". When the
brushes are at one end, the touch the copper for a full revolution (100%
on). As the brushes are moved axially, they touch the copper for a
smaller and smaller percentage of a revolution (X% PWM). At the far end,
they don't touch it at all (0% or fully off).
> But an adaptation of an old idea, you could use a motor driven
> contactor, with mechanical timing so that the "on" period could be
> adjusted from 0-100%, a bit like on a 24hr timer switch. With a fast,
> modern flyback diode and sufficient snubbing of the contacts, it might
> last a little while :)
On the contrary; I think you could make it last for a relatively long
time... as good as brushes in a normal motor.
There have been dozens of mechanically speed-controlled DC motors for a
very long time. They often use some sort of flywheel governor to operate
switches or control field current.
Nowdays, we'd get the switch to last by putting a freewheel diode across
the inductive load it was switching. This is cheap and easy, but
actually a rather poor way to do it performance-wise.
The high-tech approach is resonant switching and synchronous
rectification. You see this in the latest state-of-the-art switching
power supplies, but it was a commonly-used technique with mechanical
switching long ago.
A resonant switch uses an LC circuit to cause the current and/or voltage
in the switch to go to zero at the instant you switch it. There is no
arcing, so the switch lasts for its mechanical life (until it wears out
from friction).
Synchronous rectification is when you open and close the switch at
exactly the instant the voltage across it passes thru zero, so it is
closed when the voltage is positive, and open when it is negative. You
get a rectifier with essentially zero voltage drop.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Feb 2005 at 11:15, Christopher Zach wrote:
> Any reason why they are so complex to convert?
They ^shouldn't^ be tough to convert. They were designed from the start as
EVs.
The original design was commissioned by the person behind Swatch, I believe,
and he envisioned a little electric city runabout for two people with just
enough cargo area to haul a case of beer. The enterprise went bust and
Mercedes bought the design, then proceeded to stuff an ICE into it.
It was rather slow to catch on, IIRC, but has held its own reasonably well.
Some people seem to think it's cute, which may actually be more important in
its sales than its efficiency, though I personally consider its looks to be
somewhere in the neighborhood of hideous. The original Pivco Citibee and
early versions of the Think were much more attractive, IMO, but what do I
know?
But I digress (as usual ;-).
I might be a little off on some of the details, but that's how I remember
the early history of the Smart. At any rate, converting one shouldn't be
THAT difficult, providing the owner is willing to pay the converter in
something besides Charmin.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament],
"Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will
the right answers come out?" I am not able rightly to apprehend the
kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
-- Charles Babbage
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A question about this and another recent post regarding connecting batteries
directly to the motor: If you connect the batteries directly, do you get
regen by default whether you want it or not? When you let up on the
throttle, does the motor become a generator pumping amps back into the
batteries, since they're still connected? If so, for this controller idea,
I suppose you'd pull the movable brush away when the throttle was released
if you didn't want regen?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Feb 2005 at 9:50, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> They didn't die because of complications, they died because California
> caved in on their ZEV mandate and the automanufacturer (GM?) that was
> funding the development pulled their funding.
The project was not related to any automaker, IIRC, except that Daimler
Chrysler was supplying the gliders. I think the conversions were being
carried out by Camcorp (?) for use with a station car project. I don't know
the details, but presumably either the station car project never was
implemented, or it used ICEs instead. It was a real bummer to see those
partly finished conversions go up on Ebay.
Marty Bernard used to lurk and occasionally post here. He's involved with
the station car movement, or at least used to be, and maybe he knows what
happened to the project. You there, Marty?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Grr, I realize I didn't say what I wanted in my previous question about
regen and direct connection. I didn't mean to reference the "throttle" for
direct connection, since there is no throttle. I was just thinking of the
case where the car was traveling downhill. Would the motor become a
generator in this case, generating more voltage backwards into the pack than
the pack was supplying? Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Weren't they from Panoz's Atlanta car share program? E-motion mobility,
it was called i believe.
On Feb 11, 2005, at 12:30 PM, David Roden wrote:
On 11 Feb 2005 at 9:50, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
They didn't die because of complications, they died because California
caved in on their ZEV mandate and the automanufacturer (GM?) that was
funding the development pulled their funding.
The project was not related to any automaker, IIRC, except that Daimler
Chrysler was supplying the gliders. I think the conversions were being
carried out by Camcorp (?) for use with a station car project. I
don't know
the details, but presumably either the station car project never was
implemented, or it used ICEs instead. It was a real bummer to see
those
partly finished conversions go up on Ebay.
Marty Bernard used to lurk and occasionally post here. He's involved
with
the station car movement, or at least used to be, and maybe he knows
what
happened to the project. You there, Marty?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They ^shouldn't^ be tough to convert. They were designed from the start as
EVs.
There *was* some sort of little Toy Toyota EV as well, correct? I
remember seeing one in Washington DC; looked very much like a Smart. Was
that different, and did that just go poof too?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Yes the Hakwer G26 lbs er...looks like a good match for amps
> and wieght. Clearly it's got enough stuff in it to hold most
> controllers open for a couple of seconds. This may be all
> that is needed.
Exactly. It sure would be nice to have some data logs of pack voltage
and current at 0.1s or 0.01s increments for real runs so there was some
accurate idea of what is really needed.
> I know
> John had years of iffy performance with a set of 16 amphour
> hawkers. When they went boy they made some power!!!, But
> aging and battery to battery unballences made for lots of not
> so good runs. Bigger is better for repeat runs.
It is only fair to point out that the most consistent EV racer out there
(to the best of my knowledge) is Dennis Berube, and (to the best of my
knowledge) he is running small batteries.
Neither John or Rod had any regulators on their packs, and while Rod did
use a conductance tester to weed out obvious stinkers, I think they both
generally suffered from either not knowing the limits of the batteries
they were using, or not knowing the state of each battery before a run.
Certainly, they both run/ran controllers capable of being set to limit
battery current just under the safe limit for their batteries, so I
suspect the bigger problem is that they didn't have means of keeping
their packs in balance and without knowledge of how imbalanced the pack
was, they couldn't help but pop the weaker batteries every now and then.
> Anybody had a Orbital fail in high amp mode?????
> I think you are over blowing the quality issue. So far it has
> been very good.
And I very well could be.
It seems that the point is that nobody has yet been able to push an
Orbital much over its rated 1100A for 5s outside of your lab. John
seems to be the closest so far, as he is able to peg a 1500A meter the
instant he hits bypass, but it doesn't stay there and he's taking less
than 13s for the whole run.
It seems to me that the Orbitals are too much battery for most of the
higher voltage racers; they simply can't use the current that these
things are capable of. But, they could be the ticket for the low
voltage guys... a 48V pack with a Z2K turned down to a "conservative"
1800A yields 67hp (sagging to 7V/battery) in a 160lb pack, and a 48V
vehicle actually has a chance of drawing this sort of current (and only
runs the 1/8th mile, so has a good chance of not popping a battery due
to sustaining too high a current for too long).
Any chance of Joe setting a new 48V record in Silverado this year? ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A series motor would not unless you reversed the field. Even then, it
is an unstable generator. Regen current makes the field stronger,
which causes more regen current, which makes the field stronger...
That goes on until something saturates or blows up. Though it is not
impossible, there are not many series setups with regen.
A shunt or permanent magnet motor will regen provided the battery
voltage is low enough and you spin it fast enough.
--- Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Grr, I realize I didn't say what I wanted in my previous question
> about
> regen and direct connection. I didn't mean to reference the
> "throttle" for
> direct connection, since there is no throttle. I was just thinking
> of the
> case where the car was traveling downhill. Would the motor become
> a
> generator in this case, generating more voltage backwards into the
> pack than
> the pack was supplying? Thanks.
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know how good they run, but they do, I worked fror Grundfos, a water
pump manufacturer, and when the electricians on location wired a pump
incorrectly, it did run backwards.
those were AC brushless submersible motors 380 Volts 5 to 400 hp.
http://net.grundfos.com/Appl/WebCAPS/CatalogueCtrl;jsessionid=00003bnN0WHKvv
DuHPkcsDGkSAR:-1?cmd=prsr
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
nombre de Carl Clifford
Enviado el: viernes, 11 de febrero de 2005 17:00
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: AC Motors and Reverse
Easy question for those more knowledgeable than myself:
Can you run an AC motor backwards? In other words, if I build an AC
conversion w/out a transmission will I be able to back up?
I know the arguments against doing this, just curious about this detail.
Thanks in advance
Carl Clifford
Denver
;-| grinless
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Feb 2005 at 15:49, Christopher Zach wrote:
> There *was* some sort of little Toy Toyota EV as well, correct?
You might be thinking of the E-Com. It was a prototype; they built some
small number, I think mostly for show, in the mid 90s when there was still
some chance that CA might not cave on the EV mandate. (Sigh.)
I never actually saw on in the flesh, or whatever, but they seemed like a
nice little commuter from the pictures and descriptions. They used a small
NiMH pack, going for weight reduction rather than range extension. DC
brushless motor maybe? I'd kinda like to get my mitts on one someday.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
-- William G. McAdoo
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was curious why the Orbital says max charging Amps = 35 Amps, for a
battery they say can spit out 1100 Amps. This seems low, are they
just being conservative again?
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> It seems that the point is that nobody has yet been able to push an
> Orbital much over its rated 1100A for 5s outside of your lab. John
> seems to be the closest so far, as he is able to peg a 1500A meter
> the
> instant he hits bypass, but it doesn't stay there and he's taking
> less
> than 13s for the whole run.
>
> It seems to me that the Orbitals are too much battery for most of
> the
> higher voltage racers; they simply can't use the current that these
> things are capable of. But, they could be the ticket for the low
> voltage guys... a 48V pack with a Z2K turned down to a
> "conservative"
> 1800A yields 67hp (sagging to 7V/battery) in a 160lb pack, and a
> 48V
> vehicle actually has a chance of drawing this sort of current (and
> only
> runs the 1/8th mile, so has a good chance of not popping a battery
> due
> to sustaining too high a current for too long).
>
> Any chance of Joe setting a new 48V record in Silverado this year?
> ...
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The all-new My Yahoo! - What will yours do?
http://my.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
yes, from what I understand this is the case if you motor is
a shunt-wound or compound-wound (not sure about series) and
if the car wants to go faster than the applied battery
voltage would propel it (unlikely)
I have this on my Elec-trak E20. When locked into cruise
control the motor has the full pack voltage applied with
a full field and if I am mowing and going down a steeper
hill I see my battery AMPS draw go (to/below) zero, even
though my mower motors are still consuming power. Thus
at least the power for the mower motors must come from the
drive motor working as a generator, possibly more, but I
can't say as my ammeter can't display power flowing in the
reverse direction.
In any case I think to have "useful" regen you need to be
able to increase your field strength to actually slow the
vehicle down.
Others will most likely be able to explain more/better
hope this helps anyway.
Markus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis
> Sent: Freitag, 11. Februar 2005 15:36
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
>
>
> Grr, I realize I didn't say what I wanted in my previous
> question about
> regen and direct connection. I didn't mean to reference the
> "throttle" for
> direct connection, since there is no throttle. I was just
> thinking of the
> case where the car was traveling downhill. Would the motor become a
> generator in this case, generating more voltage backwards
> into the pack than
> the pack was supplying? Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I see the 9" Advanced DC motor rated at 144 volts and the 9"
Warp motor at 192. Are these the same versions people run
in the 200 and 300 volt range?
Then there are the "mysterious" Warp 11" and 13" motors..
What are they rated at? Are they Kostov's? Are Kostov's
not that great?
Potentially in a full size pickup conversion, a 600 or
900(or more) volt pack could be installed in the bed. What
might the absolute upper limits to any currently available
DC motor be? Would that be due to arcing problems? What
are the upper voltage limits a Zilla could be scaled too?
Are these DC motors as advanced as they are ever going to
get? About what year did these motors peak out at?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, three-phase AC machines are symmetric, and with modern control
systems can operate, as the cognoscenti say, in all four quadrants
(motoring and (re)generating both forward and in reverse). You just
negate the phases (electronically), reversing the direction of current
flow (on a mains-attached system, you swap two of the wires).
Your garden-variety DC controller only controls the voltage at one
terminal of the motor (the other terminal is typically connected to the
most positive battery post), whereas 3-phase systems control the
voltage all 3 terminals of the motor (or both terminals, in a
four-quadrant brush-type DC setup). The basic controllers can only
supply current in one direction (but are simpler and cheaper), whereas
the other ones can supply current in either direction.
You don't see a lot of big 4-quadrant brush-type controllers because
it's typically cheaper to add one more pair of transistors (two the two
pairs you need anyway) and eliminate the commutator and any associated
hassles.
Series-wound motors (found in your typical DC EV) have the additional
gotcha in that the armature terminals (the ones connected to the
brushes) need to be "swapped" independently of the field terminals (the
ones that magnetize the stationary part of the motor), or vice versa to
reverse direction. Hence the tangled-rootball-looking reversing
contactors you find on direct-drive DC EVs.
HTH,
-Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forgot to say one thing:
Of course if you can increase the motor RPM e.g. by shifting
gears then you can utilize regen brakeing much the same way as you
would utilize engine brakeing on a ICE
(but this time you get energy back)
Markus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Markus L
> Sent: Freitag, 11. Februar 2005 16:24
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Regen with direct-connection of motor to battery,
> WAS: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
>
>
>
> Bill,
>
> yes, from what I understand this is the case if you motor is
> a shunt-wound or compound-wound (not sure about series) and
> if the car wants to go faster than the applied battery
> voltage would propel it (unlikely)
>
> I have this on my Elec-trak E20. When locked into cruise
> control the motor has the full pack voltage applied with
> a full field and if I am mowing and going down a steeper
> hill I see my battery AMPS draw go (to/below) zero, even
> though my mower motors are still consuming power. Thus
> at least the power for the mower motors must come from the
> drive motor working as a generator, possibly more, but I
> can't say as my ammeter can't display power flowing in the
> reverse direction.
>
> In any case I think to have "useful" regen you need to be
> able to increase your field strength to actually slow the
> vehicle down.
>
> Others will most likely be able to explain more/better
> hope this helps anyway.
>
> Markus
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Dennis
> > Sent: Freitag, 11. Februar 2005 15:36
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: Motor controller "idea" for sale on eBay
> >
> >
> > Grr, I realize I didn't say what I wanted in my previous
> > question about
> > regen and direct connection. I didn't mean to reference the
> > "throttle" for
> > direct connection, since there is no throttle. I was just
> > thinking of the
> > case where the car was traveling downhill. Would the motor become a
> > generator in this case, generating more voltage backwards
> > into the pack than
> > the pack was supplying? Thanks.
> >
> > Bill Dennis
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apparently Solectria no longer exists as a company; they recently had their
remaining inventory bought out by a company up in Canada. That's probably
why they don't respond to emails and phone calls, being in the process of
winding down their operations.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
Has anyone had any success getting Solectria to reprogram their
controller?
They never respond to my emails and when I called them, they just told me
to email them (sigh).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was curious why the Orbital says max charging Amps = 35
> Amps, for a battery they say can spit out 1100 Amps. This
> seems low, are they just being conservative again?
It may be because the battery is intended for automotive applications
and they are assuming a pretty simple/dumb charger.
If you review the official charging recommendations for them, the max
recommended charge rate is 20% of the Ah rating (i.e. 10A for the 50Ah
34XCD). The fast charging/emergency boosting recommendation is for a
max of 30A for a max of 1hr.
The cyclic charge (EV appropriate) recommendation is quite similar to
that for Optimas:
- constant current at 20% of C/20 (10A) until 14.4V
- hold 14.4V until current tapers to 2% of C/20 (1A)
- constant current at 2% of C/20 for 2hrs.
compensate the charge voltage by 5mV/cell/degree C to a maximum of 14.8V
and a minimum of 13.9V.
Note that the official recommendations suggest a max. current of 15A and
a finish of 1.5A, even though these values do not correspond to 20% and
2% of the C/20 Ah rating of the 34XCD (the Orbital Select line includes
12V batteries from 26-115Ah, though none of them are remotely close to
the 34XCD in terms of internal resistance... or length of warranty).
Obviously, Rich will confirm that you *can* charge these at higher
rates, however, it will be some time before we know if there are long
term implications of exceeding the manufacturer's recommendations.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Are these DC motors as advanced as they are ever going to
> get?
Pretty much.
> About what year did these motors peak out at?
Hmmm, 92 maybe 93? That of course would be 1892.
There's not a lot of innovation you can do with a series wound DC motor.
The big ones are relatively efficient and there's not much you can do to
improve their efficiency except narrow your tolerances. This involves a
large increase in production costs, and reduces the durability of the
motor, all for very little increase in efficiency. A good series wound
motor is 85-90% efficient, at peek efficiency.
Permanent Magnet motors like the Lynch are VERY efficient, in the low to
mid 90%, not a whole lot of room for improvement.
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Chris Tromley wrote:
This seems a rather strange comment coming from someone who built
an AC powered EV using LiIon batteries and supercaps in his own
garage, something that even the multi-billion dollar major
automakers have never offered to the public. Weren't the setup
costs astronomical?
Setup of what? I only bought complete components, I didn't make
them. *That* would be astronomical cost (if I had to hire design
company to come up with components like Siemens ones just for me.
Same about batteries - I haven't made them. I bought them as you bought
PbA - anyone can do ut. Wiring, which does require knowledge of
course, is no different vs any other setup; in fact - simpler
than DC setup.
Precisely! Knowledge is an incredibly powerful "solvent"! Once you know
how, seemingly impossible things become easy. A guy in his garage really
*can* do things that huge corporations can't do. Sure, it will cost
more... but not enough more to stop you.
To be fair, members of a corporation may be no less bright
than the guy in garage. If I get hired by such corp, I still
posess same resources to make ACRX in my garage, but I can't
make it as a corporation; however not because of lack of
brains in corporation, you know.
Any electrochemists out there?
That is your first step. Find someone who knows a *lot* about battery
design and manufacture, and brainstorm. Pay him if you can. Read
everything you can get. There are classic texts for older types (lead
acid, nickel-cadmium, nickel-iron) that document every single step of
the process in excruciating detail.
As Lee pointd out, nothing stops anyone fron buildng cars,
plains, and - why not - batteries. But it all remains a
hobby at that level. Not to say there is something wrong with it,
but it is a solution for that hobbyist.
As soon as hobby grows into business it eventually becomes
evil greedy corporation we started discussion with.
Victor
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Solectria has been bought out by other company - don't have URL
at the moment, but there is press release about acquiring Solectria.
I'll look up the company name and URL and forward to the list
on Monday.
Victor
Charles Whalen wrote:
Apparently Solectria no longer exists as a company; they recently had
their remaining inventory bought out by a company up in Canada. That's
probably why they don't respond to emails and phone calls, being in the
process of winding down their operations.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 11:50 AM
Subject: Solectria Motor/Controller (was Re: Smart EV)
Has anyone had any success getting Solectria to reprogram their
controller?
They never respond to my emails and when I called them, they just told me
to email them (sigh).
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Carl Clifford wrote:
Easy question for those more knowledgeable than myself:
Can you run an AC motor backwards? In other words, if I build an AC
conversion w/out a transmission will I be able to back up?
Short answer - yes, no problem.
It runs backwards just as good as forward - as well
it regens as good as drives (in either direction).
Totally symmetrical machine (I should say "system").
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
Shari Prange wrote:
>Gary Starr actually asked me to do it with LiIons,
delivering Smart
>(and labor if needed) to my door.
>
>Didn't go any further than couple of phone calls and
emails.
>
>Victor
Yeah, they asked us, too, but we declined.
Shari Prange
They asked me too, but, I also declined.
Ok, who HAVEN'T they asked?
Shari Prange
FWIW, at one point they also offered to buy almost ever decent EV on the EV
Tradin' Post with stock. I think they did get one.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Tradin' Post
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/
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> You also have to change a resistor inside the BC-20 that sets the max
> voltage. You can actually go to voltages higher than what is stated in
> the manual, you just have to calculate what the resistor needs to be (the
> manual lists the specific resistor values for normal pack voltage ranges).
Is there some technical or liability reason K&W didn't just put a potentiometer
on the front to allow voltage adjustment without having to open the case?
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Chris Tromley wrote:
>
Why would you need a fancy injection-molded case? If you really wanted one,
you could disassemble worn-out Optimas. More likely you would use cheap and
available polypropylene lab ware with minor modifications, or some other
approach. The battery enclosures we see on mass-produced batteries today
only look the way they do because that's what you can do in volume. The
performance of a battery has little dependence on whether its case was
custom designed or made from Tupperware.
Misunderstanding. I only mention injection molding process
just to illustrate unwise decision - it is absolutely not worth
it for few batteries. Same - with batteries - it is not worth
to built suitable battery plant to make a few for only your
car. Sorry, your garage cannot be suitable, despite your optimism.
I've also worked for a manufacturer with a clean room and metal deposition
equipment. They would not have taken on such an outside job because doing
so would have put their own production at risk. But through that project I
learned that there are contract houses that specialize in such work. When
you consider the scope of processing enough material for an entire pack, you
realize that would be plenty to "bother" with.
That is a different story - my impression was you wanted to
built a battery in your garage after having bought raw materials.
If you subcontract - why not do it with already established
*battery* manufacturer?
Also, that former employer later started making some of their excess
production capacity (not metal deposition) available to outside clients.
You'd be surprised what's available if you ask.
Again, this is doable, but have nothing to do with intent to
built it in your garage converted to a "clean" room.
I'm not discouraged, but then I was never personally in a position to pursue
this. For others I think it's more productive to realize the extent to
which reality can be what you make it. Saying something is impractical for
a hobbyist simply because you can't do it the way major manufacturers do it
is both overly pessimistic and misleading.
Fine. I *want* to built something in my garage to get me
to Mars. Really want. According to you I should label anyone
a pessimist who will tell me this is unrealistic.
THe trick is to draw the line between what is really unrealistic
and what is difficult enough for plain mortal not to bother
because efforts will not worth outcome.
How does your ACRX compare in
overall performance and usefulness to a RAV 4EV or a (now extinct) EV+?
Don't know, never driven either of those, but I dare to think
it is no worse.
Most of building a battery is not high-tech. The parts that are can be
procured from companies that specialize in those processes. The
availability of high-power batteries would boost the promotion of EVs, so
this is certainly worth looking at. Sorry, I just don't see any major
barriers on the production side. Electrochemically I'm not so sure. Any
electrochemists out there?
Chris
If someone builds battery parts for you and you bolt them
together, you are not building a battery.
As people building cars and planes don't fabricate
engines (lathe pistons etc) - they put together
parts from kits sold by others. Therefore it is possible.
If someone will produce "EV LiIon bettery kit",
that would make fabricating battery in your garage
doable, just like conversion car itself - you don't fabricate
any parts of a car - you buy them and make fit.
**********************************************
Argue for your limitations, and they're yours.
**********************************************
It is not limitations you imply. I can tell the same
to you when you said "I'm not personally in the position
to pursue this". Well, *that* is *your* limitation, and
each of us has similar our own - some support family, some
has no time, whatever. It is not a lack of motivation
or enginuity.
I sure can make EV-1 type car. Who's gonna pay my
bills while I do it? You can call this my limitation
or excuse why I don't do it.
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
Apparently Solectria no longer exists as a company; they recently had
their remaining inventory bought out by a company up in Canada. That's
probably why they don't respond to emails and phone calls, being in the
process of winding down their operations.
Solectria's website says they merged with Azure Technologies. Azure
Technologies' website says they acquired Solectria. I guess it is a matter
of spin and perspective.
While I am not sure what effect this will have on their physical location,
they didn't have a problem replacing all the bearings in my motor and
gearbox and getting it back to me. I am optimistic that support for
Solectria products will continue for quite sometime to come.
There are more details on the changes at Solectria on the web at:
http://www.solectria.com/news/index.htm
and
http://www.azuredynamics.com/january312005.htm
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Mike - I no longer need to dig up URLs - you got them!
Victor
Mike Chancey wrote:
Apparently Solectria no longer exists as a company; they recently had
their remaining inventory bought out by a company up in Canada.
That's probably why they don't respond to emails and phone calls,
being in the process of winding down their operations.
Solectria's website says they merged with Azure Technologies. Azure
Technologies' website says they acquired Solectria. I guess it is a
matter of spin and perspective.
While I am not sure what effect this will have on their physical
location, they didn't have a problem replacing all the bearings in my
motor and gearbox and getting it back to me. I am optimistic that
support for Solectria products will continue for quite sometime to come.
There are more details on the changes at Solectria on the web at:
http://www.solectria.com/news/index.htm
and
http://www.azuredynamics.com/january312005.htm
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
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--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> If you connect the batteries directly to the motor, do you get
> regen by default whether you want it or not?
With a PM motor you do. With a series motor, you get regen if you turn
the motor *backwards* from the direction it wants to run as a motor.
With a separately-excited field (field powered independently), you get
motor or regen, forward or reverse, depending on what you apply to the
field.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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