EV Digest 4100
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: AC Motors and Reverse
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Political Action (OT)
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery resting voltage...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Political Action
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EV Owners (One hour south of San Fran, CA) Need Advice
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Political Action (OT)
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Political Action
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Political Action
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Synthetic oil in Tranny & Diff.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Cluttered and complicated (was RE: Political Action)
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Synthetic oil in Tranny & Diff.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery resting voltage...
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Electravan Vs. Curtis 400 amp controller conversion. Gearing musings.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Battery resting voltage...
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electravan Vs. Curtis 400 amp controller conversion. Gearing musings.
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 1970s cars, was Re: White Zombie Range
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery resting voltage...
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Battery resting voltage...
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AC Motors and Reverse
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: More water dreams...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 1970s cars, was Re: White Zombie Range
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
This motors are being made every day, those are submersible motors for water
pumps, and they are not that expensive.
Description:
Description Value
Product name:
MS 6000
Product No:
78195519
EAN number:
5700392327666
Technical:
Approvals on nameplate:
CE
Materials:
Material, motor:
Stainless steel
1.4301 DIN W.-Nr.
304 AISI
Installation:
Maximum ambient pressure:
60 bar
Motor diameter:
6 inch
Staybolt:
1/2"UNF
Liquid:
Max liquid t at 0.15 m/sec:
40 �C
Electrical data:
Motor type:
MS6000
P2:
26 kW
Mains frequency:
50 Hz
Rated voltage:
3 x 380-400-415 V
Voltage tolerance: +
6/--10 %
Starting method:
direct-on-line
Rated current:
59,0-57,0-57,0 A
Starting current:
450-490-500 %
Cos phi - power factor:
0,87-0,84-0,81
Rated speed:
2840-2860-2880 rpm
Locked-rotor torque:
160-180-190 %
Breakdown torque:
220-240-260 %
Moment of inertia:
0,0120 kg m2
Axial load max:
2000 kg
Enclosure class (IEC 34-5):
IP58
Insulation class (IEC 85):
F
Motor protec:
NONE
Thermal protec:
external
Built-in temp. transmitter:
yes
R:
0,433 ohm
Others:
Net weight:
69.5 kg
Manual and part list can be downloaded here
http://net.grundfos.com/Appl/WebCAPS/LiteratureDetail?documentid=1280&litlan
guage=ENU&typecode=MSFAM&appcode=&pdfid=1923&language=ENU
And I include a graph with the poewr and efficiency curves and a picture of
the motor, remeber the diameter is 6", therefore you can estimate the
length.
BTW: the motor is filled with water, and has a cap to refill, it runs like
that, it's the means of refrigeration, it dissipates heat through the motor
wall into the surrounding water, but it could be easily adapted to let water
through the motor, then a radiator could be fitted.
Well, that is the answer to the question: Where to get a motor like that.
Ivo
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de M.G.
Enviado el: lunes, 14 de febrero de 2005 23:02
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: Re: AC Motors and Reverse
>with water, (inside of the motor), efficiencies are around 95%.
>
>And it could be installed in the place of the driveshaft, and with that
>have all the trunk and hood areas free for batteries.
>
>This is just an idea, there are various problems, first of all 380V, then
>AC, and then the cooling, well, also they are 100% stainless steel on the
>outside, and installing them on an 8" sleeve full of water, and running the
>water at a certain speed through a radiator, you are all set.
>
>Too much hassle right ???
>
>
I think this is very interesting. Where would one find such a motor?
Mike G.
>
>
>
>
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
RE: Political Action (OT) --
For those interested in political action to get international corporations to
'see the
light' of the various benefits of electric vehicles the Union of Concerned
Scientists site
is a good start. If you agree with 'their' opinion then you can use their
letter verbatim
and if not then you can turn it around to your own view on the issues.
I do NOT agree with their view. I changed their form around by 180 degrees. The
UCS still
thanked me for using their action center.
On our Automakers v. the People? webpage <
http://www.ucsusa.org/general/special_features/page.cfm?pageID=1534 > you can
see our new
carbon calculator, email a specific automaker, and learn more about the
groundbreaking
California global warming vehicle law.
To learn more about the Union of Concerned Scientists, visit our website at
http://www.ucsusa.org
To see other action alerts visit the UCS Action Center at
http://www.ucsaction.org
Your message below was sent to: Koichi Kondo
Koichi Kondo
President, American Honda Motor Company
1919 Torrance Blvd
Torrance, CA 90501-2746
Dear Mr. Kondo,
Honda and Nissan have hard-earned reputations as the environmental leaders in
the
automobile industry worldwide, even in the USA. Your companies have earned the
respect of
American consumers around the country both as a standout in curtailing
smog-forming
pollution, and, in producing hybrid electric vehicles.
The Kyoto accord is a flawed agreement. It exempts China and India and singles
out America
as the cause of carbon based pollution. It is good that America vetoed
participation.
The accord has renewed life however, and in a few weeks it may still come into
force.
Thank you for your help sue the State of California into some semblence of
rationality
over the global warming and other transportation balderdash. Automakers may or
may not
win their case in court.
Sincerely,
Stephen Love
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, I went into the archives but couldn't find it.
I think this is the circuit in question:
http://www.socalev.com/Main_Frame/upgrades.htm
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From: "Steve"
>For those interested in political action to get
>international corporations to 'see the
>light' of the various benefits of electric vehicles
I was thinking about a really nice, clean, "simple"
conversion to show them "Hey look at this. This is better
then the original vehicle."
Take a somewhat new car. Be it a Neon, Cavalier, Saturn,
Focus, etc. Remove all the "junk" from under the hood so
the electric motor install will look clean and not
cluttered. Install either a 8" or 9" DC motor to the stock
transmission. Install a Zilla and a PFC really nice and
clean. Install the AGM batteries potentially where the
stock gas tank was. Build a rack and try and mount it using
the gas tanks mounting points. Use other mounting points if
need be. Try and keep it a "bolt in" ordeal. Mount
batteries cleanly in the trunk and cover them with that
material they use to line the trunks with.
The purpose of this would be to show the auto manufacture
that they could take existing vehicles and quickly and
easily convert them with minimal effort.
I'm pretty sure the performance would be better. Can we get
comparable range?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A potential volunteer in CA,
I had received a request for EV help via Bruce Meland, who I think had
received it from a friend of Anne's. It sounds like Anne has an EV that she
got from a relative that didn't charge the battery pack, so she needs to
determine if the pack is really in need of replacement, or if it's usable
for her travels. I had e-mailed Anne to get her location, and her response
is below. If you can help her, please respond directly to Anne at:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
as she is obviously not on this list!
Anne,
A battery pack consisting of golf-cart style batteries could range in price
from $1000 to $2000, depending on the type and quantity you need. An EV
with a dead battery pack will sell for as little as $1000 (I've witnessed
this locally), even if it has $5000 worth of components! I'm curious who
the "dealer" is that you mentioned below?
Thanks,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's for the teenagers)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>From: "Anne McNertney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 22:55:14 -0800
>
>Dear David(Battery Boy)Hawkins",
> Thanks so much for responding. We live near Stanford
>University;Palo Alto,Menlo Park, Atherton, & Redwood City are the townships
>in our area. We are an hour South of SF. When a friend of mine who sold his
>electric car back to the dealer for 2K questioned him about our problem, he
>was told a new battery would cost $1,500 but he would be happy to purchase
>ours for the same price! Needless to say, I have not yet called the dealer
>and am delighted to know that there may be better solutions. Our car has
>very few miles on it and I was so looking forward to using it this Fall. Now
>that Spring is nearing (We are in sunny California) I'm delighted to know
>there are other avenues to try first. Thanks again & God Bless, Anne &
>Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Posting a link where you can voice your opinion is appropriate, but
including your letter with your political opinions goes against forum
moderation policy, in my opinion.
Neon John is an instigator who relishes every opportunity to try and
poke an eye at any environmentally positive sentiments. This is not
debate, nor intelligent discourse. This is simply political antagonism.
It has no place here.
While I have a strong pro-environmental view of the world, I temper that
enthusiastic advocacy here because the list moderators have set that
policy.
It is unfortunate that some people disrespect this excellent list by
ignoring the clearly stated policy.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry Ryan, but you are almost sure to end up with a less functional car,
most likely in both range and performance when you do a conversion like
this. And if you ever look at a really clean conversion like the ones
Wayland and some other's on this list have built, you will see that though
they are clean, they are no less cluttered and complicated looking than a
gas car. On top of that, the car is going to be much more expensive, for
you to build, although the car companies could do it for a lot less once
they were tooled up.
If you want to see a nice looking Saturn EV check out the EV1. The car
manufacturers already have all the data that they need as far as what it
takes to produce a very nice Electric Car and they have all decided that it
is not a business they want to be in at this time. What their reasons are
for coming to this conclusion can be debated by us forever, but not without
stirring up the kind of passions that lead to flame wars.
If you want a nice electric car, you are going to have build it yourself.
None of the auto manufactures are going to make one for you.
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Political Action
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2005 15:35:46 -0600
>From: "Steve"
>For those interested in political action to get
>international corporations to 'see the
>light' of the various benefits of electric vehicles
I was thinking about a really nice, clean, "simple"
conversion to show them "Hey look at this. This is better
then the original vehicle."
Take a somewhat new car. Be it a Neon, Cavalier, Saturn,
Focus, etc. Remove all the "junk" from under the hood so
the electric motor install will look clean and not
cluttered. Install either a 8" or 9" DC motor to the stock
transmission. Install a Zilla and a PFC really nice and
clean. Install the AGM batteries potentially where the
stock gas tank was. Build a rack and try and mount it using
the gas tanks mounting points. Use other mounting points if
need be. Try and keep it a "bolt in" ordeal. Mount
batteries cleanly in the trunk and cover them with that
material they use to line the trunks with.
The purpose of this would be to show the auto manufacture
that they could take existing vehicles and quickly and
easily convert them with minimal effort.
I'm pretty sure the performance would be better. Can we get
comparable range?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
Certainly not!
Take my most popular Zilla, the 156V rated Z1K-LV that sells retail
$1975. That's 160 HP. Try finding a 160 HP AC controller for under
$2000. I think you'll have a hard time finding that. A quick look at the
Grainger catalog shows the largest one they sell being 125 HP, and
costing from $15,000 to $20,000. But to be fair, most AC drives can do
2X overload for peak power so lets compare to a 75 HP drive. Those range
from $9600 to $15,000. Still at least 5 times the cost of the Zilla DC
drive.
Or take the top of the line 348V 2000A Zilla that sells for $4900.
That's about 700 peak HP at the shaft if you had the batteries to drive
it. This comes to about $7.14 per HP. Try finding that in a AC drive of
any sort.
I agree with your analysis OTmar, but I'mot sure if $/hp is the only
criteria for a customer to go by, AC or DC.
If Zilla cost $7.14 per HP but does nothing else than crank out
these HP, it is not a good controller. If it is programmable, does
protect battery and motor, does reversing, can be adapted for particular
motor, have extras (DC-DC or auxiliary charger), universal
interface, integrated contactors, etc, etc, and still cost $7.14/hp,
it is very different value for the customer (lots add ons for "free").
Also, drives which priced at Grainger at $15k *may* cost $3k to produce,
and the rest is marketing/support thing. If you'd offer Zilla though the
Grainger, they could probably price it for $13,995 or something,
regardless of how much you charge them. Point I'm trying to make - sale
price is rather function of demand/supply than complexity.
Complexity matters, but appears not always to be priced proportionally.
I have built both AC and DC systems and of course I pay a lot of
attention to cost. I agree that the development cost is higher for AC
drives, but even when that is fully amortized (or as is more common in
this industry, given away!) the AC drives do cost more.
No arguments there, no way it can cost less or the same.
AC controllers are quite a bit more expensive per KW to build. They have
6 times the gate driver circuits, more than twice the processor power,
three times or more the cost to measure current and the power section
(which includes the heatsink in my calculations) costs 2 to 4 times as
much as a similar DC controller. Resistors don't matter on the price,
but power devices, current measuring, gate drive and heatsinks sure do.
This is hardware componenets cost, right?
Of course all these effects are highly dependent on the particular
design and application. The best representative case that I know of was
one where I was asked to replace a DC controller that I had designed
with a AC one. The application was identical and *very* cost sensitive.
In the end I worked the AC controller down to 140% of the cost of the DC
controller. This was for a very high volume design so the development
costs were next to nil. I think this is a reasonable target, and I hope
that someday I can offer a 150 HP AC drive for about $3000.
Again, I may be wrong, but I'd certainly pay 140% more for AC
controller with *lots* of extras and flexibility than for DC one
of the same (or more) raw power but plain vanilla one.
The difficulty in comparing EV controllers that you can buy on the
market today is that they are optimized differently. The Siemens
controllers, like many AC controllers, try to keep the controller cost
down by raising the system voltage. This makes sense if you are trying
to make a cheaper controller, but the economics become worse if you look
at the balance of the system. You are now severely handicapped by
requiring a high voltage battery system. This of course increases costs
quite a bit, and theoretically reduces reliability. You can thankfully
run them at lower voltage, but then the power is closer to that of a
Curtis.
Still, I understand their logic because building a high power low
voltage AC controller really showcases the increased cost of the AC
controller.
Don't get me wrong, I drove AC for many years, and I like it a lot, but
one thing it's not is "less expensive".
If you're talking about particular Siemens system I offer, it can be
*less expensive* depending on how much value you put in extras they
have. But, you're right in general because these particular systems
are offered at surplus prices while DC ones are not - not fair
comparison. New Simovers 6SV-1 from Siemens directly would run $20k or
so, because support and distribution network cost and mark up will be
included.
Now, if you take the motor into consideration then the argument can
become much closer. When you start producing hundreds of thousands of AC
systems (motor and controller) the situation gets much closer because
the AC motors are much cheaper to make than the DC motors. The AC system
still costs more, but it's not that much more and as power electronics
slowly get better the argument for AC gets better as well.
Sure.
Have fun!
I do.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> And if you ever look
> at a really clean conversion like the ones Wayland and
> some other's on this list have built, you will see that
> though they are clean, they are no less cluttered and
> complicated looking than a gas car.
OK; I really have to make an effort to get some photos of my conversion
posted!
What Damon writes is largely true, but it doesn't need to be. One of my
goals with my conversion was to have an underhood area that would
impress people with how much simpler an EV is than an ICE. To achieve
this, there are *no* traction batteries under the hood; there is just
the 12V system battery in the stock location. The motor is in plain
sight so that its small size and simplicity relative to the original ICE
are obvious. The wiring is/will be neatly harnessed (its not yet
complete) to avoid the intimidating science project look.
It is definitely possible to put together a conversion that is less
cluttered and complicated looking than a gas car, you just have to make
that one of your design goals.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland would you say this synthetic Gear oil helped range? Thanks Lawrence
Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 7:51 AM
Subject: Re: Synthetic oil in Tranny & Diff.
Valvoline has a Full synthetic Gear Oil - SAE 75W-90 which is call
SynPower.
Is for all standard and limited slip hybroid differentials. I also use it
in my standard transmission.
http://www.valvoline.com
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 8:01 AM
Subject: Synthetic oil in Tranny & Diff.
The Electravan 750 manual specifies 90 Weight E.P. (Extreme pressure)
Amsoil doesn't make this oil. Is there a Synthetic that has this spec.?
The book specifies "Axle" for the oil in the differencial. What is Axle
oil? I was going with their recomendation of the 75-90 Gear Lube.
Lawrence
Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might take a look at Al Godfrey's latest porsche. While the front is
full it is hardly cluttered. Of course as Roger points out it depends on
your desing goal. Colins car next door does look a bit cluttered :-).
You can compare it to John's Zombie on page 4 though that might be unfair.
The Zombie is neat but designed for quick access as a drag car.
http://www.veva.bc.ca/rev/2004/photos/gw/al%20godfrey%20porsche.jpg
http://www.veva.bc.ca/rev/2004/photos/gw/page_01.htm
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: February 15, 2005 3:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Political Action
damon henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> And if you ever look
> at a really clean conversion like the ones Wayland and
> some other's on this list have built, you will see that
> though they are clean, they are no less cluttered and
> complicated looking than a gas car.
OK; I really have to make an effort to get some photos of my conversion
posted!
What Damon writes is largely true, but it doesn't need to be. One of my
goals with my conversion was to have an underhood area that would
impress people with how much simpler an EV is than an ICE. To achieve
this, there are *no* traction batteries under the hood; there is just
the 12V system battery in the stock location. The motor is in plain
sight so that its small size and simplicity relative to the original ICE
are obvious. The wiring is/will be neatly harnessed (its not yet
complete) to avoid the intimidating science project look.
It is definitely possible to put together a conversion that is less
cluttered and complicated looking than a gas car, you just have to make
that one of your design goals.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the Amsoil website they say they have no comperable fluid for the E. P.
rating. Consequently no recommendation for the transmission. I found it
hard to believe but it's comming from Amsoil. They did however recommend
three different oils for the diferential. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Synthetic oil in Tranny & Diff.
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
The Electravan 750 manual specifies 90 Weight EP (Extreme pressure)
Amsoil doesn't make this oil. Is there a Synthetic that has this spec?
The book specifies "Axle" for the oil in the differencial. What is
Axle oil? I was going with their recomendation of the 75-90 Gear Lube.
"Axle" oil is gear lube -- smae thing. And, all gear lubes will have the
EP additives, both regular and synthetic.
I think the AMSoil is 75-90w "gear lube" and is synthetic.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob,
My nominal pack voltage is 160 volts, not 170. But yes, according to
Trojan they should be resting at about 170 volts at 100% State of
Charge.
Thanks,
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
---------------------------------------------
On Mon, 2005-02-14 at 23:27, Bob Bath wrote:
> Nick buddy, I've forgotten your pack voltage. Let's
> see... 875s are the 8 volters, if I recall, so that
> puts my resting pack voltage of 153V on a 144 V pack
> at 2.125 VPC. You have 80 cells, so that's 170V, as
> you (correctly) note.
> All I can figure is you've got some current leak
> somewhere dropping the voltage down somewhere.
> Is your DCDC constantly on? Hmmm. That doesn't
> square with you saying you disconnect "all loads".
> I'll bet another LISTer says tests of individual
> batteries will indicate you've got a stinker in the
> pack somewhere.
> Nothing else seems to fit... (:-<
>
> --- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I recently watered the 20 Trojan T-875 batteries
> > which are in my Jeep.
> > As per Trojan's recommendation, I added water after
> > a charge cycle, and
> > used distilled water.
> >
> > Before the watering, I'd noticed that after the
> > charger would finish,
> > the battery pack voltage would fall until it hit
> > about 168 volts, where
> > it would rest (no load on the batteries). According
> > to specs, 100%
> > state of charge open circuit voltage should be about
> > 8.49 volts per
> > battery or 169.9 volts for the pack.
> >
> > Well, now when the charge cycle ends, I see the
> > battery voltage rest at
> > 163 to 164 volts. Even if I disconnect all loads
> > immediately after the
> > charger times out, the voltage will fall (fairly
> > quickly) until it gets
> > to 163-164 volts. I've also just noticed that the
> > pack voltage seems to
> > sag a lot more than it used to under load, and my
> > range has decreased.
> >
> > Did I do something wrong here? I've now charged the
> > batteries 4 times
> > since adding water, and nothing seems to be
> > improving. Maybe this is all
> > a coincidence and has nothing to do with my watering
> > the batteries?
> >
> > P.S. I do still have a Lee Hart battery bridge LED
> > circuit connected to
> > the pack while driving. I've yet to see any of the
> > red LEDs light up...
> >
> > -Nick
> > 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> > http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> >
> >
>
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/maildemo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to say after driving the Electravan for a few days now it is a more
powerful vehicle than my Curtis 8 inch conversion. I think gearing has
something to do with it. However I'm not sure. Both conversions have about
the same amps and pack sizes and voltage. The Electravan shift points are
20 30 and 45mph. The Aspire liked to shift at 25 or 30 to second gear and
45mph in 2nd was a good crusing speed but in the Electravan 25 in second is
good. I can go up hills in second with the Electravan that I'd have to take
a run at with the Aspire and that's in first.
I have a Honda Civic VX & a gas Aspire now. The gearing in both these
vehicles is confusing. The Aspire shifts way lower than the Honda. I have
gotten the shift up arrow in the Aspire for 5 th gear as low as 27mph and
was able to climb a slight grade. I am lucky to be able to shift to 5th in
the Honda at 47mph. Seems the Aspire has a way lower gear ratio but my 97
Aspire has to scream to work properly with low amp usage. I'm thinking it
might be possible my new 94 Aspire has lower gears than my 97 Aspire. If so
I might want to switch transmissions. The only problem is the syncros are
going on the 94 tranny. I couldn't imagine using a VX for a conversion now
that I know how high it is geared. Maybe the CX or SI or another model
might have shorter gears. With a low power controller conversion you need
all the help you can get. to climb hills. BTW the Aspire is a much more
comfortable car to sit in than the Honda Civic.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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Hi,
Thanks for the detailed info.
> daily maximum charge could be 210 volts for these 168 volt battery
> pack
I've got a 160-volt pack
> which is about 2.5 volts per cell. Other batteries at a lower
> amp hour are normally charge at 2.46 volts per cell.
Trojan has no daily charge voltage posted for the 8-volt batteries, but
they do say that the daily charge voltage for a 6-volt flooded is 7.2 to
7.4 volts, or about 2.43 volts per cell. So, that would come out to
about 9.72 volts for an 8-volt battery, or 194.4 volts for my pack. I
have my PFC-30 charger set to 195 volts.
So, should I be charging up to 2.5 volts per cell with these batteries
(200 volts for the pack)? Or do I continue to charge at 2.43 volts per
cell?
Thanks
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
--------------------------------------------------
On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 08:18, Roland Wiench wrote:
> Hello Nick,
>
> The resting voltage of Trojans batteries will be about 2.1 volts per cell
> after about two weeks of resting!
>
> It is recommended to add only water at the beginning of a charge cycle. If
> the batteries are at 50 percent discharge, then eyeball the level at that
> time. If any of the electrolyte is below any of the plates, than add just
> enough water to get about 1/2 above the plates. NOT TO THE BOTTOM OF THE
> FILLER NECK!!
>
> When a battery discharges, the electrolyte will drop and when it is charge,
> the electrolyte will rise.
>
> After the charge cycle, than eyeball the level of the electrolyte again. If
> it is not up to the bottom of the filler neck, DON't ADD WATER AT THIS TIME.
> Wait until you discharge the batteries to about 50 percent and do you
> adjustment there.
>
> Adding water on the discharge cycle, the charging will mix the water better.
> If you add water at the end of the charging cycle, the water is just setting
> on top of the acid.
>
> If a battery sets for a long time with out any maintaining charge, this
> seperation will cause the electrolyte at the bottom to be about 1.300
> Specific Gravity or greater and the top to be about 1.250 or less.
>
> If your batteries electrolyte is setting at 1.265 to 1.275 and you add water
> at the end of cycle, you are than diluting the electrolyte at that time. It
> is like mixing sulfuric acid which is about 1.800 SG with water which has a
> SG of 1.000 to get 1.300 SG initial mixing which will heat up during this
> mixing. The specific gravity will than float down to about 1.275 during
> cool down.
>
> So if you add too much or more water than the battery had in initial mixing,
> you could be reducing the electrolyte specific gravity below 1.265 at a
> correct charge level.
>
> At least once a month, check the level, the specific gravity, the voltage of
> each battery and the CELL VOLTAGE OF A BATTERY that may be lower than any
> other battery. I don't do all these steps all at once. One month I may
> check the level, and the next check the specific gravity and so on.
>
> TO CHECK THE CELL VOLTAGE, I used a 3 volt cell tester made by CALVAN. The
> test probes are CAD coated which are about 3 inches long. You insert one
> probe in to one cell and the other in a adjacent cell. This reading should
> be the same for each cell of the battery.
>
> If your battery cells are unbalanced at more than 5 percent of each other, I
> DON'T LET MY CELLS, BECOME MORE THEN 0.02 VOLTS OF EACH OTHER, then you
> should do a balance charge of the battery to about 2.6 volts per cell. This
> will be 10.5 volts for your 8 volt batteries. I do this balance charge
> about once a month, if any of my cells are more than 0.02 volt difference.
>
> Your normal daily maximum charge could be 210 volts for these 168 volt
> battery pack, which is about 2.5 volts per cell. Other batteries at a lower
> amp hour are normally charge at 2.46 volts per cell.
>
> To increase a cell that has weak specific gravity, after a full charge, you
> may have to cook it out by bubbling it out, by overcharging with a balance
> charging voltage.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:24 PM
> Subject: Battery resting voltage...
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I recently watered the 20 Trojan T-875 batteries which are in my Jeep.
> > As per Trojan's recommendation, I added water after a charge cycle, and
> > used distilled water.
> >
> > Before the watering, I'd noticed that after the charger would finish,
> > the battery pack voltage would fall until it hit about 168 volts, where
> > it would rest (no load on the batteries). According to specs, 100%
> > state of charge open circuit voltage should be about 8.49 volts per
> > battery or 169.9 volts for the pack.
> >
> > Well, now when the charge cycle ends, I see the battery voltage rest at
> > 163 to 164 volts. Even if I disconnect all loads immediately after the
> > charger times out, the voltage will fall (fairly quickly) until it gets
> > to 163-164 volts. I've also just noticed that the pack voltage seems to
> > sag a lot more than it used to under load, and my range has decreased.
> >
> > Did I do something wrong here? I've now charged the batteries 4 times
> > since adding water, and nothing seems to be improving. Maybe this is all
> > a coincidence and has nothing to do with my watering the batteries?
> >
> > P.S. I do still have a Lee Hart battery bridge LED circuit connected to
> > the pack while driving. I've yet to see any of the red LEDs light up...
> >
> > -Nick
> > 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> > http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> >
> >
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Maybe the CX or SI or another model might have shorter gears.
Having driven a CX I know that it too has quite a tall first gear
(enough that I got good at double-clutching into first). But given the
number of Civic dragsters out there, surely there must be some shorter
gear sets available.
-Frank
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Hmm, I wonder how much one of those Fiero's with the fiberglass 'Contach'
skin weighs?
Probably too much. Porsche 914s can still be found fairly easily, though
some of the really cool fiberglass bodies are getting hard to find (I saw
one once that looked like a 935 convertible). Auto-Atlanta makes a 904
body for them that's pretty cool. Heck even just putting 916 fenders on
them makes them look pretty bad a$$ and you get then put really wide meats
on 'em.
Maybe a Miata or a Toyota MR2? Don't know how much those weigh though.
> On 12 Feb 2005 at 0:49, Dave wrote:
>
>> Ever considered one of those little Opel GTs? Looks kind of like a small
>> vette. Also, didn't Saab make a little 2-seater GT?
>
> The Sabb you're thinking of is the Sonnet, a sweet little sports car.
> Coincidentally, I just saw one the other day, the first I've seen in years
> here in Ohio.
>
> Both the Sonnet and the Opel GT are pretty scarce, and I'm not sure either
> one would make a good conversion because of the very small chassis sizes.
> (I think there's an unfinished Opel GT conversion in the EV Photo Album,
> though.) But they sure are distinctive looking.
>
> Another rarity that might be fun to convert: a Volvo P1800.
>
>
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Rush,
I have pictures of my build of Lee's battery bridge LED circuit here:
http://driveev.com/temp/battleds/
I actually built two of the bridge circuits on one board. Each bridge
measures half of my pack (10 batteries and 80-volts). Thus, I have one
green LED for each half of the pack (top row of LEDs), and two red LEDs
for each half of the pack (bottom row of LEDs). This means that a red
LED would indicate a problem in a 40-volt block of the pack (5
batteries).
If I get time I'll move these pictures to one of my photo galleries (as
the only way to get to them now is by direct link). ;-)
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
---------------------------------------------------------
On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 09:32, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What is a Lee Hart battery bridge LED ? Specs?
>
> Tks
> Rush
>
> From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> P.S. I do still have a Lee Hart battery bridge LED circuit connected to
> >> the pack while driving. I've yet to see any of the red LEDs light up...
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> So, should I be charging up to 2.5 volts per cell with these
> batteries (200 volts for the pack)? Or do I continue to
> charge at 2.43 volts per cell?
Charge at 2.43V/cell at 26.7C/80F increase the charge voltage by
0.005V/cell/degree C that the temperature is below 26.7C and decrease it
by this amount above 26.7C. What is your typical pack temperature these
days?
This is only half the charge solution, however.
What is your PFC30 set to do once this voltage is reached? You must
hold this voltage until the current tapers to a lowish level (about
4-6A) and then continue charging until about 110% of the Ah removed are
returned. Typically this is done by holding the current constant at
4-6A once it tapers to that level. Your batteries should exceed
2.5V/cell by the end of this final constant current phase, and 2.6V/cell
is not at all unusual.
The real charge quality check is to verify the specific gravities
several hours after completion of a full charge.
By the way, while much of what Roland advised agrees with my experience,
I would note that the battery manufacturer's advice for topping up the
electrolyte is to add just enough distilled water to ensure the plates
are covered prior to charging, then top the electrolyte level up after
the batteries are fully charged. 'Full' electrolyte level is typically
1/8" to 1/4" below the bottom of the fill tube.
Good luck,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
...
The ultimate limit is the brush. The higher the rpm, the faster it has
to slide over the commutator or slip ring surface. That generates
friction, heat, and wear. At some point, you can no longer cool it, and
its life is too short to be useful.
This brings anothe question which [use to :-) ] bugging me for
a long time: why they don't use something like ball bearings pressed
against commutator instead of brushes, so it rolls instead of
slids and so does minimum wear? Of course contact area is smaller,
but hard pressing metal to metal amdy be all you need. Conductivity
is provided through the bearing itself.
Count amount of resistors, capacitors, ICs and heat sinks in both
types - roughly the same.
Not normally. The usual PWM DC motor controller has just one big
transistor and one big diode (or perhaps many small ones in parallel).
The usual 3-phase AC motor controller has 6 transistors and 6 diodes
(again, sometimes using paralleled devices). Now, each of those
transistors and diodes is about half the power rating, so you basically
have 3 times the amount of high-power silicon in an AC controller.
Yes, but the hi power silicon components are fraction of the cost
of the whole thing. SAy, a power transistor is $70. OK, 6 trnasistors
are $420. But the price difference between AC and DC controller
*far* exeeds $420, it is in thousands.
I think it is only because AC inverters *typically* do more
sophisticated things than just PWM battery power to the motor.
Yes, quite true. DC controls tend to be simpler and cheaper. They could
build AC controls the same way, but they don't.
Perhaps because users want something more than just hp/dollar.
There is very limited market for non-flexible AC inverters.
>>I think industrial AC inverters made [by the] millions cost less
>>than Zilla made in small quantities, are they?
>
> Of course. This is a the main reason EV controllers are so expensive;
> they are all essentially hand-made.
Well, Otmar's answer to this starts with "Certainly not!"... :-)
Here is excerpt from his comment:
==============================
> I think industial AC inverters made in millions cost less
> than Zilla made in small quantities, are they?
Certainly not!
Take my most popular Zilla, the 156V rated Z1K-LV that sells retail
$1975. That's 160 HP. Try finding a 160 HP AC controller for under
$2000. I think you'll have a hard time finding that. A quick look at the
Grainger catalog shows the largest one they sell being 125 HP, and
costing from $15,000 to $20,000. But to be fair, most AC drives can do
2X overload for peak power so lets compare to a 75 HP drive. Those range
from $9600 to $15,000. Still at least 5 times the cost of the Zilla DC
drive.
=============================
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
> In thinking about it, would it not be possible to essentially put a T
> fitting on the top of each BB600 cell, with a length of tubing going
> into the cell terminated right where the cell is at full water level?
>
-snip-
> Just thinking and dreaming NiCD dreams here.
>
You mean, other than the water shorting out all the cells in your pack?
Saft's design prevents a conductive water path forming from cell to cell.
ANy design you come up with needs to create an "Airgap" between the water
flowing into the individual cells.
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--- Begin Message ---
The lightest Fiero was about 2350 lbs, and the heaviest close to
about 2800 lbs. The 914 was about 2100 lbs. I'd bet you could get
more weight out of a Fiero than a 914, so I wouldn't be surprised if
the stripped weight was nearly the same.
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hmm, I wonder how much one of those Fiero's with the fiberglass
> 'Contach'
> skin weighs?
>
> Probably too much. Porsche 914s can still be found fairly easily,
> though
> some of the really cool fiberglass bodies are getting hard to find
> (I saw
> one once that looked like a 935 convertible). Auto-Atlanta makes a
> 904
> body for them that's pretty cool. Heck even just putting 916
> fenders on
> them makes them look pretty bad a$$ and you get then put really
> wide meats
> on 'em.
>
> Maybe a Miata or a Toyota MR2? Don't know how much those weigh
> though.
=====
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