EV Digest 4110
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Is Dennis getting bored?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Is Dennis getting bored?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: High energy usage. Flooded batteries.
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Stuffing the brains into my variac
by "Sweeney, John P" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Otmar Efficiency
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Is Dennis getting bored?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV1 vigil in Burbank, Calif
by "Jonathan \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Solar Powered Beer Cooler, was World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 144vdc charger options needed, was Re: help
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Help with predicting motor power-repeat and long
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV1 vigil in Burbank, Calif
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Is Dennis getting bored?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: She's dead Jim
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: She's dead Jim
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Torque Steer
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Drag racing electric vehicles..
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: She's dead Jim
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Minor quibble: Should be W*hr instead of W/hr.
E = 1/2*m*v^2 = 0.95 MJ
(the 1/2 was forgotten in the similar calculation below, it should be
0.64 MJ)
0.95 MJ * 1 hr / 3600 s = 263 Whr
Average power: 0.95 MJ / 12 seconds = 79 kW.
Guess around 120 kW including rolling resistance and aero drag and
electrical losses.
Average electric Power = I*(V-IR) = 120 kW
If R = 30*0.005 ohms = 0.15 Ohms, so I = 400 A,
and sagged voltage V-IR = 300 Volts.
Energy used ~ 300 Volts * 1.1 Ahr = 330 Whr
Efficiency = 263 Whr / 330 Whr = 80%
That's mighty good efficiency.
400 A might sound low, but when you consider the Tzero does ~13.2
seconds in the 1/4 with twice the weight and ~600 A, it seems
reasonable. Also remember it is an average and estimated number.
If it pleases Dennis Berube, I'd love any more accurate data inputs.
--- Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I wrote:
> >That's 1.1 Ahr at a nominal 360V so that's a bit under 400 W/hr or
>
> >probably closer to 300 W/hr considering battery sag. All that for
> >about 1 mile of driving including exceeding 100 mph and stopping
> >again in a 1400 lb car.
>
> This got me to thinking, how much energy is in the car when it
> crosses the line?
> I'm going to assume that he is doing 100 mph on these runs, but
> doing
> the math (possibly incorrectly) makes me wonder about that.
> So, Let's see if I can do this....
> KE = (1/2)mv^2
> KE = Energy (in Joules)
> m = mass (in kilograms)
> v = velocity (in meters/sec)
>
> 100mph, = 45 m/S (online calculator)
> 1400 lbs = 635 kg. (handy calculator)
> = 1.29 MJ / 3600 = 357 w/hr. (1 joule is 1 Watt/second, so there
>
> should be 3600 J in a W/hr.
>
> Hey Dennis, How fast are you going during these 1.1 Ahr runs? I'm
> guessing it's closer to 90 mph which would be 282 W/hr, still some
> amazing efficinecy.
>
> Is my math off here?
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ot his final speed is more like 125 mph. That's what he was doing when that
photo he sent me was taken.
What this really shows... is his motor conversion eff is a couple of times
what our stock motors can produce.
Yes Dorthy... This ain't Kansas, and there is a LOT of gains to be made
inside a stock DC brushed motor.
The sweet spot they show us in the factory motor charts is a long ways from
Racing amps and RPMs.
I venture ... enough to where Dennis can clobber Bill's Lithium with
Hawkers. And have a EV that weighs about 2x Bill bike.
I told Bill years ago... there's Magic to be made inside the motor case.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: Is Dennis getting bored?
> I wrote:
> >That's 1.1 Ahr at a nominal 360V so that's a bit under 400 W/hr or
> >probably closer to 300 W/hr considering battery sag. All that for
> >about 1 mile of driving including exceeding 100 mph and stopping
> >again in a 1400 lb car.
>
> This got me to thinking, how much energy is in the car when it
> crosses the line?
> I'm going to assume that he is doing 100 mph on these runs, but doing
> the math (possibly incorrectly) makes me wonder about that.
> So, Let's see if I can do this....
> KE = (1/2)mv^2
> KE = Energy (in Joules)
> m = mass (in kilograms)
> v = velocity (in meters/sec)
>
> 100mph, = 45 m/S (online calculator)
> 1400 lbs = 635 kg. (handy calculator)
> = 1.29 MJ / 3600 = 357 w/hr. (1 joule is 1 Watt/second, so there
> should be 3600 J in a W/hr.
>
> Hey Dennis, How fast are you going during these 1.1 Ahr runs? I'm
> guessing it's closer to 90 mph which would be 282 W/hr, still some
> amazing efficinecy.
>
> Is my math off here?
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My guess is you're not charging completely. Your simple voltmeter state of
charge gauge might read full until a load is placed on the batteries.
Try specific gravity measurements at end of charge, let us know what they
are.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 1:03 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: High energy usage. Flooded batteries.
>
> I seem to be gettiing lousy range with the Electravan. It has a state of
> charge meter that doesn't seem to lie so I trust it. When I took my first
> long round trip 10 miles. I went 5 miles and the meter said 50%. I
> waited
> for one hour and the meter read 70%. Huge bounce back. I drove home and
> the meter read 40% when I got home. I didn't wait for bounce back. The
> range has been going like that untill today when I charged the day before
> and didn't drive. I took the car to the shop for alignment and after 50
> yards it registered 85%. By the time I went the one mile to the Shop it
> was
> around 69%. Is this normal for Lead acid letting it sit for a day and
> have
> that kind of loss? Reading 50% on the meter is between 122 & 123VDC..
> Verified with a good meter. I get a gut feeling that something is binding
> but amps stay low. I have to try real hard to get it to pull 100 amps.
> Full throttle taking off can draw 150 amps but not for long. The truck
> accelerates well. What am I doing wrong????????
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon,
I pretty much use what you are proposing. I use a BS2-SX to control a
variac and to read each individual battery via a optically isolated V-F
converter on each battery. The stamp also controls a bank of relays
(like Lee Harts balancer) that I use to add an additional 4 amps to the
lowest battery in the string during and after the bulk charging phase.
The V-F converters for each battery use a single wire for data and power
and seem to work well.
I can supply a schematic if you send me your snail mail address.
Pat Sweeney
KickGas E-Fiero
E-Bent Bike
E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 9:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Stuffing the brains into my variac
OK, I guess it will be as straight forward as I thougt it might. I am
using
a Basic Stamp 2 (BS2-IC) which does not have a built in ADC, so I guess
I
will need to pick a couple of those up. Do I need to be concerned about
protecting my BS2 from anything I am measuring. It seems to me that
between
the shunt for the current and the voltage divider it is pretty well
protected, but I don't have a lot of experience building circuits, so I
haven't had a lot of chances to learn from my mistakes.
BTW - I know there are other chips out there that might be a better fit
than
the Basic Stamp, but I already have one, and I have some familiarity
programming it.
Even though it is the hard part of this project, for me the software
will be
the fun part. Although I started my career thinking I wanted to be an
Electrical Engineer, I took a turn down a more computercentric path. I
always enjoy writing software that manipulates things in the real world
as
opposed to pushing pixels or data around in a virtual world.
damon
>From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: Stuffing the brains into my variac
>Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2005 21:40:06 -0800
>
>1. Use two single pole double relays and wire them like an automotive
>electric window switch. Fire one relay to raise the voltage and the
other
>relay to reduce it. If you fire both relays, nothing happens.
>
>2. Use a voltage divider to read the voltage. Scale it to fit in the
ADC on
>the chip.
>
>3. Use a shunt and an amplifier to read the current. Adjust the
amplifier
>gain to make full current about 75% of the full scale input voltage of
the
>ADC on the chip.
>
>4. The hardware is trivial. It is the software that will take some
time.
>
>Joe Smalley
>Rural Kitsap County WA
>Fiesta 48 volts
>NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 6:20 PM
>Subject: Stuffing the brains into my variac
>
>
> > I'm looking for component/circuit ideas for adding some brains to my
> > charger. It is a simple rectified variac setup. The variac is
>motorized
> > and I have a basic stamp I want to use as the brains. Anyone have
any
> > favorite ideas for measuring voltage and current and feeding the
info to
>the
> > Stamp. Any good ideas about what to use to drive the motor? The
variac
>is
> > rated for 20 amps and 180 volts. It's the Staco #033-6565 being
sold at
> > http://www.fairradio.com/variac.htm.
> > I will be going on a business trip in a couple of weeks and thought
this
> > might be a good way to keep myself occupied in the hotel, but in
order
>to
>do
> > so I will need to be prepared ahead of time.
> >
> > damon
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:29 AM -0800 2-18-05, David Dymaxion wrote:
Otmar can you please speculate why the Porsche is so much less
efficienty than the Sprint? I'd assume the weights and aero are close
to the same.
--- Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
For comparison my Sprint would do 140 Wh/mile, but that was at only
60 mph flat and level on the highway, and my 914 does about 240
Wh/mile at 60 mph. Try accelerating and stopping and it gets much
worse.
> ...
Sure. Much of it is the weight, the 914 is 150% of the Sprint.
Chevy Sprint is under 2000 lbs including the driver, has a AC drive
which is efficient, has the original Invicta GL tires at high
pressure which I measured at a rolling coefficient of .00625.
The 914 is about 3200 lbs with driver, has dual 8" DC motors belted
together, running through a 930 (Turbo Carrera) transaxle that is
hard to turn with your hands when it's out of the car in neutral.
That probably accounts for much of it. The tires are 175-55-15
Eco-Contact which are a compromise between traction and rolling drag.
I have not measured the rolling drag yet. And the car has never been
optimized for low drag. I just looked on the EV Calculator and see
that at 60 mph, the 914 is expected to be doing 200 wh/mile. So I'm
guessing the dual motor setup accounts for most of the extra 50
wh/mile.
For those who don't know this great resource:
http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So Rich, It seems you have some inside information about Bill's bike that
none of the rest of us have. Please share.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Is Dennis getting bored?
Ot his final speed is more like 125 mph. That's what he was doing when
that
photo he sent me was taken.
What this really shows... is his motor conversion eff is a couple of times
what our stock motors can produce.
Yes Dorthy... This ain't Kansas, and there is a LOT of gains to be made
inside a stock DC brushed motor.
The sweet spot they show us in the factory motor charts is a long ways
from
Racing amps and RPMs.
I venture ... enough to where Dennis can clobber Bill's Lithium with
Hawkers. And have a EV that weighs about 2x Bill bike.
I told Bill years ago... there's Magic to be made inside the motor case.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:30 PM
Subject: Re: Is Dennis getting bored?
I wrote:
>That's 1.1 Ahr at a nominal 360V so that's a bit under 400 W/hr or
>probably closer to 300 W/hr considering battery sag. All that for
>about 1 mile of driving including exceeding 100 mph and stopping
>again in a 1400 lb car.
This got me to thinking, how much energy is in the car when it
crosses the line?
I'm going to assume that he is doing 100 mph on these runs, but doing
the math (possibly incorrectly) makes me wonder about that.
So, Let's see if I can do this....
KE = (1/2)mv^2
KE = Energy (in Joules)
m = mass (in kilograms)
v = velocity (in meters/sec)
100mph, = 45 m/S (online calculator)
1400 lbs = 635 kg. (handy calculator)
= 1.29 MJ / 3600 = 357 w/hr. (1 joule is 1 Watt/second, so there
should be 3600 J in a W/hr.
Hey Dennis, How fast are you going during these 1.1 Ahr runs? I'm
guessing it's closer to 90 mph which would be 282 W/hr, still some
amazing efficinecy.
Is my math off here?
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hurley wrote:
At 11:23 AM -0800 on 2/16/05, Steven Lough wrote:
What's the POINT ! Look what happened when the MEDIA got hold of
the "car-In" sit in, on behalf of the Ford Ranger PU EV's just last
month.
I think the EV1 deserves at least as much fight. I concede, that if
the cars are already OUT of the leasees possession, one has yet
another hurdle to overcome, but ...on the other hand ANY EV
publicity is better than none...
They aren't just out of the lessees' possession, they're crushed and
stacked in the Arizona desert. If they were still in one piece, I
could see a point, but they aren't. They're dead parrots.
I don't know that this means that GM has abandoned EV technology
altogeather.. the name 'EV1' suggests that perhaps they intend to build
more than one of them. I suspect they just found the EV1's battery
management wasn't quite up to the task, and they're working on some
fresh ideas. At least, that's what I'd like to think. (I'm not buying
any GM cars.. but I refuse to condemn them until I know beyond a shadow
of a doubt they aren't trying any more)
Actually, the decision to lease rather than sell makes some sense if you
think of the EV1 as a experiment, rather than a finished product. 'We
tried this, it sort of worked in X, Y, and Z ways - suprised even us how
well - now we're going to try something else.' I just wish GM, if this
is what they're doing, would publicly say - and tell all the EV1
owners.. 'Look, we're not through. Here's a web page where we're
documenting what we're up to next. We know you loved the cars, but we
need the parts back because we've got another trick up our sleeve.'
Think about it - to a monster like GM, making new bodies is easy. They
do it every year! Making electronics is less easy, because it's not
something they specialize in, although they probably have contacts to
get just about anything made.
In a really ideal world, GM would have open-sourced the design for the
EV1 when they were done with it, so that other companies could develop
in different directions from the EV1 platform, hopefully evolving the
system. Most of the concepts in the EV1 are documented in texts on my
bookshelves, though, so it's not like there are any deep secrets here.
Even the body could be reproduced fairly easily, with a few changes to
'file off the serial numbers' and avoid patent infringements.
Personally, I'd like to see the EV2 have a two-speed synchromesh gearbox
with electronic shifting, a lithium-ion battery pack with active thermal
and charge management, and a 200kW AC induction drive, and a 50x4 stereo
plus a 200W sub. Why be subtle about being the best?
One of the biggest hurdles to progress in a lot of industries seems to
be that not everyone embraces the idea that we (sentient life on Earth)
all get further when we all know more - the concept behind open source,
which has taken computer hardware and software to amazing heights in
just the short time I've been alive.
I'm betting someone from GM lurks on this list.. and they are free to
contact me if they want more roadgoing EV ideas and implimentation
suggestions for them. Or anyone from any auto company. I'm over hating
the system - It's what we've got, let's work within it every way we can.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the purpose of this race is to bring awareness of solar power to Joe
Sixpack I think he would be much more impressed with a solar beer cooler :-)
Turning fire into ice is pure magic to some folks.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
PFC20/ 20B or PFC30s will do what you want.
110 in and no problems up to 450 out.
So.. that's what I recomend.
Some of the other chargers need boost transformers to bump up the line
voltages so thier circuitry can still make up to the 177 volts that's need
to fully charge
a 144 volt pack of Lead Acids.
Our Switch mode boost/buck topology has the nifty ability to take just about
any input voltages and boost or drop the voltage to what ever you need.
It's not realy easy or cheap... but for this very reason you have...This is
the product that does it.
The limit is cost. and for $300 I can't make much of a charger.
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 5:17 AM
Subject: 144vdc charger options needed, was Re: help
> Hi Rich and All,
> What are the options to charge a 144vdc pack
> of t-105's that's automatic as the customer isn't that
> technical.
> Do Lesters go this high?
> What other chargers will work. Price?
> Anyone have a used one for sale?
> Sharon really needs help here and we should
> give it as they are one of the few people building
> EV's now!!!
> Thanks,
> jerry dycus
>
>
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Well I definitely have a solution!!
> >
> > But not for $300 Bucks.
> > That price is a boost transformer and bridge
> > rectifier, and a stop watch and
> > meters.
> >
> > Hands off PFC charging.. from 100 to 240 input and
> > 12 to 450 VDC output is
> > what I sell.
> >
> > It still baffles me that somebody would spend a
> > couple of thousand bucks on
> > a battery pack, and then Cheap out on a third world
> > charger.
> >
> > I learned long ago, a good charger hand build or not
> > was worth every penny.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "goodsharonwbird" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 3:38 PM
> > Subject: help
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Hi Guys, can any one in the group make me a 144
> > volt batterycharger
> > > @110 volt input??or know where I can get one for
> > about 300$ were in
> > > a bind, we have a Ranger sitting here all done and
> > billed out. Now
> > > were starting our 6th truck. prob is that this
> > coustmer wanted to
> > > have us get a charger.and not buy his
> > own.Something happened with
> > > the building of the charger, now were in a sticky
> > situation. I
> > > could really use your guys help...Thanks Sharon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ooooooooOO Yea! REAL data!!!
Just the way I kike it. One of these days I am going to have this on a 8
inch motor....
More Iso amps... and maybe this weekend.
Ground rules... when you start doubling things... at some point you make
that 2 x or 4x torque, and you break a gear or chain, or pop a battery.
That's why we have controllers.
With contactors, you need to stage up the volts, to keep the amps from
vaporizing stuff.
Making 2285 amps at 7 volts... and 400 rpm says that 4400 amps at 400 rpm
needs only 14 stiff battery volts. You are still torque multipling at 2200
amps, so twice the amps will bring in quite a bit more than twice the Ftlbs.
Can your drive train take 150 Ftlbs ??? and can your batteries and cables
supply 4000 amps, for more than a couple of seconds???
What really breaks stuff in this DC brush world is that the Currrents DO
flow, and the torque DOES get made, and things just seam to break instantly.
In the next instant if noithing let go, Where did all the power go???? OH
yea flattened lead, and 2000 rpm... is 1/4 the torque ( force) . Dooubloing
the volts at 2000 rpm only gets you back to 40 ftlbs.
96 volts on this motor... would draw 10Ks amps, or BANG!
Figure your peak in rush amps, and then start with the voltage that that
would take. Once the amps drop by 1/2 then double the voltage with
contactors.
Also assume that the open circuit voltage on the batteries will be 1/2 at
full power. Drawing down the Lead any further will result in less Watts
delivered, but mroe torque.
A 12 volt battery pulled to 6 volts has seconds, and only a few, before it
blows up.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 8:31 AM
Subject: Help with predicting motor power-repeat and long
> This is a repeat of an earlier request. I am sorry for doing so, but I
> really need some help as I have to start designing the transfer gears,
i.e.
> cheap transmission.
> I finally got some real world test results of the motors I was planning on
> using. I am very disappointed with the test sheets, as these motors have
> tested to over 10hp in the past. The figures in the charts will be bare
> minimums anyway. If I get more I will be all the happier. The tester did
not
> measure below 400rpm as well. I am fairly certain it produces between 75
and
> 100ftlbs when it first starts to move. Anyway here is the chart.
>
>
> RPM Torque HP Current Volts
> 400 56.94ftlbs 4.82hp 2285amps 7volts
> 600 50.89ftlbs 6.03hp 2075amps 7.2volts
> 800 43.14ftlbs 6.96hp 1925amps 7.5volts
> 1000 38.35ftlbs 7.5hp 1770amps 7.9volts
> 1200 32.82ftlbs 7.89hp 1570amps 8.5volts
> 1400 28.44ftlbs 7.89hp 1440amps 8.7volts
> 1600 24.33ftlbs 7.49hp 1275amps 9.2volts
> 1800 20.65ftlbs 7.10hp 1150amps 9.5volts
> 2000 15.49ftlbs 6.29hp 900amps 10volts
>
> My question is what can I expect when I run this motor at 24volts, with
> batteries that have a combined CA rating of 1875amps (3 x 625 x 2
strings).
> This was an electronic test, the case states 300amps. The test was done at
> room temperature. Once at a show with the battery sitting in the sun the
> battery electronically tested at over 1000CA.
> Also what can I expect when running the same motor at 48volts with the
same
> batteries, 4 strings instead of 2.
> And for the future what about 96 volts with just single 625ca batteries.
> Also I am open for suggestions on gear ratios, the bike is going to weigh
> about 500lbs with rider. Thanks in advance for any comments, suggests, and
> help. My biggest question is am I going to see 4 times both the HP and
> Torque at 24volts, and then 4 times that at 48volts. Raymond
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Roy LeMeur stated:
"In the future, they will definitely have to have wattage classes."
"Sorta like NEDRA should have done instead of voltage classes. (ooops,
should have deleted that :-)"
Yes you should have deleted this. The people that formed NEDRA put in a lot
of thought into building class structures and this was discussed and
discarded early on for obvious reasons. In a solar car without batteries it
may work as the panels have wattage ratings. Roy, you should have learned
by now that two identical vehicles with the same batteries can have
totally different amounts of stored energy called energy density or wh/kg
depending on various factors. In electric drag racing we are more concerned
with power density or w/kg. Power density is the ability of an energy
system to release its stored energy quickly. A very good example of this is
Dennis Berube's recent post stating that he only uses 1.1 amp/hrs per run.
He doesn't need a great deal of stored energy due to his efficiency.
Several years ago I tried unsuccessfully to explain the difference between
energy density and power density to your boss, Steve Cloud, when he tried
to pursade NEDRA to go by battery weight like they do in Electrathon. This
is the reason he has been trying to start a rival racing organization,
NEVRA, that hasn't gone anywhere. Of course we all know that stored battery
wattage is diffferent from motor wattage. The amount of motor wattage
(horse power) you use is what gets you down the track. Scenario, NHRA tech
guy: "So what wattage are you running today? What are the motor amp
settings and your battery voltage settings on your Zilla? I'm sure I can
trust you not to change them once you have been inspected."
Come on Roy, get real, I thought you had more sense than that!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
I figured this would get a reaction outta you Rod :^D
Gimme a break, I am playing devil's advocate here. You may be right
concerning NEDRA classifications, though there are some folks who would
disagree.
I am very aware of the difference between power density and energy density,
some of us have lots of density.
I would love to see some other EVDL folks chime in on this.
Otmar? Rich Rudman? Joe Smalley? Lee Hart?
Who is real? We shall see.
See ya at the races!
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is probably much cheaper for them to ignore the money invested. Liability,
future service issues, etc are all very expensive. It is probably more cost
effective to destroy them all and most likely take a tax write off.
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 6:01 AM
Subject: RE: EV1 vigil in Burbank, Calif
> The only reason I could think of for destroying the cars would be to protect
> some revolutionary design or invention in them, but since that is not the
> case, and car makers are talking about cost efectiveness, why not sell them
> and recover some of the money invested, it's something I just don't
> understand.
>
> Ivo.
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
> de Mike Chancey
> Enviado el: viernes, 18 de febrero de 2005 9:46
> Para: [email protected]
> Asunto: Re: EV1 vigil in Burbank, Calif
>
> Michael Hurley wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have any new info.
It's just a unsubstantiated Rumor....
You tell me Rod. Am I right or wrong?.
Or more pointedly..
Bill, Just what kind of batteries are you using????
And for that matter, How did the racing Up in Vegas go???
Got lots of rumors, and semi facts.... some really nice add copy....Kind of
out landish if you ask Me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: Is Dennis getting bored?
> So Rich, It seems you have some inside information about Bill's bike that
> none of the rest of us have. Please share.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 10:13 AM
> Subject: Re: Is Dennis getting bored?
>
>
> > Ot his final speed is more like 125 mph. That's what he was doing when
> > that
> > photo he sent me was taken.
> >
> > What this really shows... is his motor conversion eff is a couple of
times
> > what our stock motors can produce.
> >
> > Yes Dorthy... This ain't Kansas, and there is a LOT of gains to be made
> > inside a stock DC brushed motor.
> > The sweet spot they show us in the factory motor charts is a long ways
> > from
> > Racing amps and RPMs.
> >
> >
> > I venture ... enough to where Dennis can clobber Bill's Lithium with
> > Hawkers. And have a EV that weighs about 2x Bill bike.
> > I told Bill years ago... there's Magic to be made inside the motor case.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 11:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: Is Dennis getting bored?
> >
> >
> >> I wrote:
> >> >That's 1.1 Ahr at a nominal 360V so that's a bit under 400 W/hr or
> >> >probably closer to 300 W/hr considering battery sag. All that for
> >> >about 1 mile of driving including exceeding 100 mph and stopping
> >> >again in a 1400 lb car.
> >>
> >> This got me to thinking, how much energy is in the car when it
> >> crosses the line?
> >> I'm going to assume that he is doing 100 mph on these runs, but doing
> >> the math (possibly incorrectly) makes me wonder about that.
> >> So, Let's see if I can do this....
> >> KE = (1/2)mv^2
> >> KE = Energy (in Joules)
> >> m = mass (in kilograms)
> >> v = velocity (in meters/sec)
> >>
> >> 100mph, = 45 m/S (online calculator)
> >> 1400 lbs = 635 kg. (handy calculator)
> >> = 1.29 MJ / 3600 = 357 w/hr. (1 joule is 1 Watt/second, so there
> >> should be 3600 J in a W/hr.
> >>
> >> Hey Dennis, How fast are you going during these 1.1 Ahr runs? I'm
> >> guessing it's closer to 90 mph which would be 282 W/hr, still some
> >> amazing efficinecy.
> >>
> >> Is my math off here?
> >> --
> >> -Otmar-
> >>
> >> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> >> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.0.0 - Release Date: 2/18/2005
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.0.0 - Release Date: 2/18/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:02 AM -0800 2-18-05, Rich Rudman wrote:
Relax Ot... the Zilla will drive a Albright...
My Bubba stays with Goldie's Raptor 1200.
Ok, that's fine.
You are right about the funky PWM drive in the Bubba, a T-Rex could open a
bubba with the radiated magnetic fields on the back side of the controller.
Mounting a Bubba with in 12 inches of a 1200 amp DCP... is not a safe idea.
The Kilovacs also put a lot of conducted noise on the 12V supply.
Hummm DCPs used a 200 volt Fet, but no snubber....I just checked the old
schematic..
Wern't we the First to have integrated contactor drives and precharge???
I don't know, when did you do it?
I had contactor drive and automatic precharge, along with the safe
sensing of precharge failure in the 600A 240V regen controller I
called the "Mouse". That was first built in 1994.
Also, I think the Auburns had a precharge and contactor drive.
I haven't seen anyone else make a precharge circuit that can survive
a fault yet. I believe that is a very important feature that I put in
all my designs.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I too would love to hear from others that I highly respect such as Lee and
Oat. The simplest way I can explain it to you Roy is that voltage is easily
verifiable, wattage is not! Volts times Amps equals Watts. Approximately 750
Watts equals one horsepower. What you are suggesting is the equivalent to
telling the NHRA that they are all wet and should have all class divisions
based on horsepower. I'm sure that would fly. Making the most horsepower
with what you have is what it is all about. It drives the person to strive
to be more creative and more efficient with what he has. Again I hold up the
example of Dennis Berube.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Roy LeMeur stated:
"In the future, they will definitely have to have wattage classes."
"Sorta like NEDRA should have done instead of voltage classes. (ooops,
should have deleted that :-)"
Yes you should have deleted this. The people that formed NEDRA put in a
lot of thought into building class structures and this was discussed and
discarded early on for obvious reasons. In a solar car without batteries
it may work as the panels have wattage ratings. Roy, you should have
learned by now that two identical vehicles with the same batteries can
have totally different amounts of stored energy called energy density or
wh/kg depending on various factors. In electric drag racing we are more
concerned with power density or w/kg. Power density is the ability of an
energy system to release its stored energy quickly. A very good example of
this is Dennis Berube's recent post stating that he only uses 1.1 amp/hrs
per run. He doesn't need a great deal of stored energy due to his
efficiency. Several years ago I tried unsuccessfully to explain the
difference between energy density and power density to your boss, Steve
Cloud, when he tried to pursade NEDRA to go by battery weight like they do
in Electrathon. This is the reason he has been trying to start a rival
racing organization, NEVRA, that hasn't gone anywhere. Of course we all
know that stored battery wattage is diffferent from motor wattage. The
amount of motor wattage (horse power) you use is what gets you down the
track. Scenario, NHRA tech guy: "So what wattage are you running today?
What are the motor amp settings and your battery voltage settings on your
Zilla? I'm sure I can trust you not to change them once you have been
inspected."
Come on Roy, get real, I thought you had more sense than that!
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
I figured this would get a reaction outta you Rod :^D
Gimme a break, I am playing devil's advocate here. You may be right
concerning NEDRA classifications, though there are some folks who would
disagree.
I am very aware of the difference between power density and energy
density, some of us have lots of density.
I would love to see some other EVDL folks chime in on this.
Otmar? Rich Rudman? Joe Smalley? Lee Hart?
Who is real? We shall see.
See ya at the races!
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.0.0 - Release Date: 2/18/2005
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.0.0 - Release Date: 2/18/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Roger Stockton wrote:
> > The spikes would be on the KSI input, if you wire the
> > controller according to their suggestions.
>
> How doe they have you wire the Alltrax controller so that the
> inductive spike across the contactor's *coil* could possibly
> appear on the KSI line? Isn't the contactor coil driven from
> the 12v system, which is isolated from the propulsion pack?
The Alltrax installation instructions state that contactors with coils
rated for pack voltage must be used, and their KSI input is also shown
wired to pack voltage. The wiring diagram actually shows KSI tied to
the wire that provides switched pack voltage to the coil of the main
contactor.
Remember, Alltrax controllers are targeted at the golf car market, where
availability of a 12V system cannot be assumed. If a 12V system does
exist, it is 99% sure not to be isolated (most will just be a tap off
the pack, the slick ones use a non-isolated DC/DC).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
>
> Roderick Wilde wrote:
>
> I figured this would get a reaction outta you Rod :^D
>
> Gimme a break, I am playing devil's advocate here. You may be right
> concerning NEDRA classifications, though there are some folks who would
> disagree.
>
> I am very aware of the difference between power density and energy
density,
> some of us have lots of density.
>
> I would love to see some other EVDL folks chime in on this.
> Otmar? Rich Rudman? Joe Smalley? Lee Hart?
>
> Who is real? We shall see.
>
> See ya at the races!
Roy Rod, Nedra folks...listers..
A lot of time was spent figuring out the classes. Way back in what 97, 98??
That was then this is now I would think we all have a slightly better idea
of how to do it now.
There are way too many classes.
I am tired of getting my butt kicked with rear drive cars, and Multi motors
and multi controllers. Not to say I couldn't vanquish them, it's just a LOT
of work.
Classes are supposed to keep like same EVs in close competition. Our voltage
only classes, can put me against 2000 amps and twin motors and a set of
Wheelie bars. Something Goldie will never have.
So I have my issues, but I am not crying foul, I am dealing with a NON
record carring EV.
As many of the good and Bad ideas, The Clouds seam to find ways of making
things harder, for thier compeditors, and easier for themselves. Hey that's
one way to Race.
It's really clear that a Watt class is NOT going to work at all, there will
be just too many ways to fool the judges and inspectors.
Some guide lines could be used:
Controller amps...number of motors, Rear Vs front drive....Street
legal...Battery chemistry. Total EV weight. Lots of good ideas. The founders
chose battery voltage, It was not a bad idea at the time.
It still isn't at this time, though I do see some need to refine the ideas
for our future.
I have been also told that a 20 second time limit may be applied to REAL
NHRA tracks. If you can't do 20 seconds, you get shown to the trailer.
Power and energy density have little to do with the rules, and everything to
do with the actual race.
The tech inspector and the NEDRA excutive board need to talk this over, and
come out with a sane angle of approach. Having 4 times as many classes as
actual entrants, Says change is needed.
Goldie should be fighting with the Wabbit, and Robert Salem's VW truck. All
single motor, tranny shifted ,front drivers. Voltage is kinda Moot when we
all have traction issues at 1/2 our peak power capabilities. And I could
tripple my power...with a Zilla 2K and 240 volts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I 2nd looking for loose parts in the front and rear suspensions.
Victor wasn't clear if the pull is transient or not, but I suspect loose
parts are not the problem based on his description.
He stated that the pull is experienced when he acclerates or decelerates
using regen, but not when he decelerates using his brakes.
Loose parts in the suspension would be forced one way under acceleration
and the other way under deceleration; the behaviour would not depend on
whether deceleration is applied at the wheel (brakes) or via the axles
(motor).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For that matter why not make normal drag EV pilotless and remote
controlled? Far safer. Oh, sorry, taking out fun factor for the
driver is a no-no.
Jonathan "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
Oh, we're not drag racing the Net? Well, it's a electric vehicle, isn't it?
ObEV: I was thinking it might be fun to make a electric, remote
controlled, solar powered dirigable
....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Auburns did not, there were a couple of early Runaways, on Cap fail on power
up.
That's why we did precharge on board.
The contractor setup for a Curtis was a pain, and we wanted it as plug and
play as we could get.
You sold How many Mouse controller??? I know of one.
Yes you have the best one so far. I am glad somebody is making use of the
rest of our fail modes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: She's dead Jim
> At 10:02 AM -0800 2-18-05, Rich Rudman wrote:
> >Relax Ot... the Zilla will drive a Albright...
> >My Bubba stays with Goldie's Raptor 1200.
>
> Ok, that's fine.
>
> >You are right about the funky PWM drive in the Bubba, a T-Rex could open
a
> >bubba with the radiated magnetic fields on the back side of the
controller.
> >Mounting a Bubba with in 12 inches of a 1200 amp DCP... is not a safe
idea.
>
> The Kilovacs also put a lot of conducted noise on the 12V supply.
>
> >Hummm DCPs used a 200 volt Fet, but no snubber....I just checked the old
> >schematic..
> >
> >Wern't we the First to have integrated contactor drives and precharge???
>
> I don't know, when did you do it?
>
> I had contactor drive and automatic precharge, along with the safe
> sensing of precharge failure in the 600A 240V regen controller I
> called the "Mouse". That was first built in 1994.
> Also, I think the Auburns had a precharge and contactor drive.
>
> I haven't seen anyone else make a precharge circuit that can survive
> a fault yet. I believe that is a very important feature that I put in
> all my designs.
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
--- End Message ---
