EV Digest 4115
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: using a brush motor after long sitting
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: 12 v system battery question
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) reversing DC motor
by Brian Staffanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: reversing DC motor
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) 12V System Battery Info
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) another 12v solution
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: reversing DC motor
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) EV Calculator update
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) RE: Siemens motors
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 12 v system battery question
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: another 12v solution
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Torque Steer
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: reversing DC motor
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 12 v system battery question
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Siemens motors
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) signing off for a while
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) 9776 Lestronic
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 2/21/05 7:54:10 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Go to a motor shop and pick up some motor cleaning solution,
>>
Reliance Electric, a motor repair shop I worked at for a few years would NOT
use any type of contact cleaners on the armature.The mica on the comm has
natural fissures that you could wash carbon dust into.We would however steam
clean
completly disasembled dc motors and then bake .Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
My 300W DC converter operates 96 - 144V (185V peak for charge), <used in my
120V E-Jeep> but could bump up higher with >200V caps if needed for a 192V
(250V peak charge) system. It's used with the aux battery and is designed
to be switched off with the key (even though quiescent is 20ma). I've found
that when previous (DCP etc) Dc converters are left on all the time a
fungus-amungus (electrolysis green fur-balls) migration occurs in humid
climates over a year or two on the circuit board around the high voltage
components to some of the low voltage control circuitry and eventually pops
the fets etc. That's why I now recommend switching off the DC converter
when not in use and comformal coating the boards. It can be seen at
www.solectrol.com . Email me at home [EMAIL PROTECTED] or call
540-473-1248 if interested. Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 1:25 AM
Subject: Re: 12 v system battery question
>
> On Feb 20, 2005, at 6:55 PM, Seth Allen wrote:
>
> > www.solectria.com sells DC-DCs in that range, although they are geared
> > more towards oem. I don't know if electro automotive carries them. You
> > are looking at more than $1/watt, I think for the Solectria parts. The
> > 12V non battery charging work the best (most reliably) if you size
> > them correctly.
> >
> > http://www.solectria.com/products/dcdcconv.html
>
> Yup, apparently Electro Automotive does carry them, for rather more
> than $1/watt.
>
> http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/price-pts.shtml#accessories
>
> EA's site says that the non-battery-charging units are to be used
> without an accessory battery, and the Solectrica site says that the
> non-battery-charging units are NOT to be used to charge a 12v battery.
>
> Why do you recommend the non-battery-charging units? I guess it's
> academic for me since they're out of my price range, but I'm still
> curious.
>
> >
> >
> > Seth
> >
> >
> > On Feb 20, 2005, at 7:03 PM, Joe Smalley wrote:
> >
> >> http://www.vicr.com/documents/datasheets/ds_batmod.pdf
>
> Didn't Lee Hart tell us that this was not a complete DC/DC, and that
> there are a number of other components needed?
>
>
> >>
> >> Joe Smalley
> >> Rural Kitsap County WA
> >> Fiesta 48 volts
> >> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> >> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2005 3:44 PM
> >> Subject: Re: 12 v system battery question
> >>
> >>
> >>> While we're on the subject, anyone know of a dc to dc
> >>> converter to use on a 156V setup? I've only found them
> >>> to 120V. If there is such a thing I'm sure you guys
> >>> would know. Thanks
> >>> Gadget
> >>>
> >>> =====
> >>> visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
> I am also looking for a DC/DC converter for my 192v conversion and not
> having much luck, except for the discontinued DCP DC/DC converter, so I
> look forward to any responses to the Reverend's query.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Doug
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> http://learn-something.blogsite.org
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am still having problems with getting the transmission into reverse. I know
the clutch disengages the motor, and that I can switch from first, into
neutral, thru fourth, and feel the difference in gearing, so I know that the
transmission isn't stuck in a gear. So I am wondering, is it possible to make
a DC series motor, specifically a Prestolite MTC 4001, motor reverse rotation.
I understand that just changing polarity to the motor doesn't do a thing in
this regard, as I have read it changes polarity of both rotor and stator. If
this it true, can I reverse the rotation? And if I can do that, what would the
VW transmission do? Would the gears in there allow a reverse rotation? An
easy, and inexpensive fix would make me happiest, but I do want this little car
running soon, so I would be happy with any answer that would work. Thanks,
Brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't despair, it can be done, I don't have a clue, but I've seen people
discuss the subject, and it's feasible, so you'll get an answer soon.
Ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Brian Staffanson
Enviado el: martes, 22 de febrero de 2005 11:01
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: reversing DC motor
I am still having problems with getting the transmission into reverse. I
know the clutch disengages the motor, and that I can switch from first, into
neutral, thru fourth, and feel the difference in gearing, so I know that the
transmission isn't stuck in a gear. So I am wondering, is it possible to
make a DC series motor, specifically a Prestolite MTC 4001, motor reverse
rotation. I understand that just changing polarity to the motor doesn't do
a thing in this regard, as I have read it changes polarity of both rotor and
stator. If this it true, can I reverse the rotation? And if I can do that,
what would the VW transmission do? Would the gears in there allow a reverse
rotation? An easy, and inexpensive fix would make me happiest, but I do
want this little car running soon, so I would be happy with any answer that
would work. Thanks,
Brian
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--- Begin Message ---
Bil wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman was whining recently that his front wheel drive car was
> at a disadvantage to the rear wheel drive cars. Yes, it is true that, on
> the
> drag strip, powerful front wheel drive cars do not get the traction that
> rear wheel drive cars easily archive. This is exactly why I stopped drag
> racing my Wabbit and built a completely different vehicle (the
> KillaCycle.)
> I realized that I was "pushing on a rope" and built a rear wheel drive
> vehicle. Rich needs to switch over to a rear wheel drive car if he wants
> to
> be more competitive. Plenty of rear wheel drive gliders to be had for not
> much money.
>
I have to agree with the decisions that NEDRA has made so far on how to
classify the cars. However, I think NEDRA should consider further
classifying the SC class into FWD and RWD. The only reason I would support
this splitting of the class is because the general "goal" of a NEDRA drag
race is to be the quickest or the fastest, as oppossed to an NHRA drag
race whose goal is to be the most consistent (bracket racing).
In that scenario yes RWD has a distinct and unfair advantage over the FWD,
in a bracket race that advantage is removed.
As I see it, at this stage of growth, NEDRA is all about setting new
records, not consistency. Which, in my opinion, is right where NEDRA
should be. Perhaps in the future when there are many more NEDRA racers
(and races) a switch to bracket racing will be warranted. But not yet.
Put the 4WD's in with the RWD's, but split the FWD's apart on their own.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
John O'Connor wrote:
> For those that use a DC/DC converter along with a 12 volt battery in
> their conversions, what battery do you use. In particular I am wonder
> how heavy of a battery people use.
I understand that John was really only looking to get a weight figure here, but
since so
many others have replied and since it's one of those 'EV subjects' I take
seriously, I'd
like to speak up on this. Because of the way it impacts the ease of operation,
as well as the
way other non-EVers perceive our on-road EV conversions, the 12V system needs
to be done right.
Like others who have replied, over my 2.5 decades of EVness, I've used many
types of 12V
system setups. I like to think I get better at things as time goes on, and feel
I have
arrived at the best method of doing the 12V system in a conversion type EV. The
best
system is one that is affordable, one that takes up the least amount of space,
one that
gets rid of mechanical pieces, one that is reliable, one that is efficient, one
that
delivers solid performance, and in the end, one that puts the EV a notch above
the gas car
with a 12V system that doesn't vary in output with motor rpm, as does the gas
car whose
lights dim and wipers slow down at every stop light, then brighten back up once
the car is
moving again. Anytime you can get your EV to do something better than the gas
car, why not
take advantage of it?
The worse type, in my opinion, is a large un-assisted 12V battery thrown under
the hood,
like a deep cycle RV or marine style 52 lb. 100+ ahr type. Such a battery takes
up space
that could be better utilized for another traction battery, adds 52 lbs.
unnecessarily,
and is inferior to what the car's 12V system originally had when powered by a
belt driven
alternator that put things at 14.2V or so. With just the big battery, lights
are dim,
wipers are slow, HVAC blower runs slows, rear window defrosters run tepid,
etc., as the
battery sags down in voltage with the addition of each load, and, as time goes
on as you
drive while the battery is constantly being discharged....12.5V, 12.4V,
12.3V....11.8V,
11.7V, etc. Such a setup makes for a miserable EV, as from the beginning of
your trip, the
system just keeps getting worse and worse with constantly declining
performance. This type
of 12V system makes your EV's performance inferior to the gas car...not good,
and not
pleasant for the recipient of such a system. Have I ever used this system? Of
course. I
think we've all done the quick and dirty deed of tossing in a spare 12V battery
to get the
EV on the road.
You could use an alternator driven off the drive motor via a belt. This works
'OK' when
used in conjunction with a 12V battery and 'almost' mimics the original gas
version's
system. The downsides are big, though. I say 'almost', because the gas car's
engine stays
at an idle when the car is not in motion, and though rpm is way slower at
idle, there is
still enough to keep the alternator spinning and the 12V battery in the 13+
volt range,
where the EV drive motor version of things comes to a complete stop (or at
least it
should) when the car is not in motion, thus no spinning alternator, thus a 12V
battery now
sagging down from 14+ volts to 12-something as lights noticeably dim....not
cool. This
setup takes up valuable space under the hood, space that is batter utilized for
traction
batteries. This setup also introduces mechanical problems such as having the
alternator
belt too tight, adding wear to the drive motor bearings, or, having the belt
too loose,
creating slippage that costs in efficiency and worn alternator belts. Then,
there's the
issue of having the belt break. This setup also adds too much weight. The
alternator
weighs around 15 lbs., it's needed bracketry, drive pulley, and belt at another
5 lbs.,
then you still need a 12V battery, one big enough to keep it's voltage high
under the
unassisted stopped alternator loads, so there's another 30-40 lbs...in total,
about 50-60
lbs. of 'stuff', all to have a 12V system that is still inferior to the gas
car's
system....again, not cool, and certainly not the most efficient setup, either.
Yes, you
could keep the electric drive motor spinning at stop, but that's a terrible
idea.
The best solution is a reliable DC-DC converter with a small and light 12V
backup battery.
A 30 amp Todd DC-DC weighs just 5 lbs., and a powerful Hawker 13 ahr Genesis
battery
weighs 10.5 lbs., so such a combo only weighs 16 lbs.! At about 90% efficient,
the DC-DC
takes the least amount of traction allocated power, too. With its dual output
mode, you
can set the DC-DC to float the 12V battery at just above 13V when the car is
not being
run, and have it kick up to 14+ volts when the car is 'on'. This system gives
the same
14+ volt performance as a gas car's alternator-charged system, but without any
of the
problems such as mechanical parts, alternator whine, the extra weight and space
used, and most
importantly, without dimming lights when the car is not in motion....everything
stays
crisp and bright, all the time.
Blue Meanie's primary system (the car has twin DC-DC converters, with a rear
one that
kicks on to give the competition grade sound system's amplifiers extra power as
they
charge the trunk mounted capacitor bank) uses a Todd PC40 DC-DC that is set up
for dual
mode output, with a baby Optima yellow top, a rare, never offered to the
public, hand
assembled miniature version of the Optima Yellow Top. It's a cool looking 15
lb. battery
that is also a deep cycle type. It's really too bad they never put this battery
into
production. The original one I used in this car, finally gave up after 7
l-o-n-g years of
service in this application. I have another one back in the car, the battery
that served
as White Zombie's 12V supply. It is now in its 8th year of service. I also have
another
baby YT, also on its 8th year, installed in my Honda Insight as the under-hood
12V
battery....amazing life from these batteries! What happened to Blue Meanie's
original baby
YT? When left for long periods un-driven, an electric car with the described
DC-DC with
backup battery in the dual mode (13+V-14+V) will ever slightly, over-charge the
12V
battery, even if it's at a 13.1V float. Over the years, the little 12V battery
was
subjected to positive plate erosion from a constant low level over-charge, but
note, it
took 7 years to finally do the deed.
Why float the 12V battery at all? If you have a conversion based on a pre-70's
type car,
there is little need to do so, unless you have an Emeter or other devices that
require
small amounts of juice to run in sleep or standby modes. Such modes, though
only sipping
20-40 milliamps, can eventually pull down a small 7ahr-15 ahr 12V battery to a
full
discharge. In Blue Meanie's case, there's twin Emeters to feed in sleep mode,
and a stereo
head unit and four amplifiers' need for memory power. A reliability note...the
Todd PC40
has never failed. The stereo-specific compact and fan cooled 35 amp DC-DC, also
made by
Todd, has never failed.
As stated, whenever possible, try to flaunt and take advantage of EV systems
that make
your EV conversion superior to a gas car. If doing up a heating system, why use
a warmed
liquid type that needs a warm up period (like a gas car) before making good
heat, when you
can use instant-on electric element or ceramic cores? Why belt drive off the EV
traction
motor for AC, when you can have a dedicated electric motor for the AC
compressor? In the
case of 12V system power, why settle for an unassisted 12V battery or a
traction motor
driven alternator, when you can have a crisp 14+ volts all the time and never
have to put
up with a varying 12V system like the gas car folks do?
It just makes good sense to use a light weight DC-DC combined with a small
stout AGM
type 12V battery for your EV's 12V system. It works better than the car's
original system,
it's more efficient, it's reliable, and it takes up little under-hood space.
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know if anyone mentioned this exactly, but how about an alternator
driven off of the motor shaft WITH a magnetic clutch like the ones used on some
air conditioners. The clutch could be switched on the accelerator pedal to
engage when your foot comes totally off. This would give everyone some motor
braking, and can be thrown together quite easily with parts from the salvage
yard.
Carl Clifford
Denver
;-| grinless
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian Staffanson wrote:
I am still having problems with getting the transmission into reverse. I know
the clutch disengages the motor, and that I can switch from first, into
neutral, thru fourth, and feel the difference in gearing, so I know that the
transmission isn't stuck in a gear. So I am wondering, is it possible to make
a DC series motor, specifically a Prestolite MTC 4001, motor reverse rotation.
I understand that just changing polarity to the motor doesn't do a thing in
this regard, as I have read it changes polarity of both rotor and stator. If
this it true, can I reverse the rotation? And if I can do that, what would the
VW transmission do? Would the gears in there allow a reverse rotation? An
easy, and inexpensive fix would make me happiest, but I do want this little car
running soon, so I would be happy with any answer that would work. Thanks,
Brian
Its not difficult, you just need a "reversing contactor" set available
from most of the EV parts suppliers. You can see the wiring diagram in
the Zilla manual on CafeElectric's site (http://www.cafeelectric.com)
but basically you flip one coil of the motor without flipping hte other
and it runs in reverse. Transmissions do not seem to have any issues
with this in the relatively short distances you drive in reverse.
My MR2 is also nearly impossible to shift into reverse, clutch engaged
or not. It works best if the motor is turning slowly with the clutch
disengaged. I suspect the clutch even when disengaged allows the motor
to turn the input shaft enough to just enough syncronize the reverse
gears. I'll probably install a set of reversing contactors just to save
the hassle. Now I need to figure out a logical and unlikely to be
accidentally pressed FWD/REV switch. Maybe a recessed pushbutton in the
shift arm...
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Hump, You are very correct that the goal of NEDRA is setting new records
or better yet the pushing of the limits of electric propulsion. We still
have a way to go to be on par with the gas guys but we are getting more
respect all the time. The only class division where it would make any sense
at all to divide front wheel drive cars from rear wheel would be in the
Street Conversion Class and I'm not even sure if that would make sense. We
have no rules against street legal slicks, traction devices, limited slip
differentials, or transmission and axle modifications in the Street
Conversion Class. It just has to be street legal. In the "Real World" there
are front wheel drive imports that do over 180 mph in the quarter and would
wipe Dennis Berube's dragster's behind. All of the traction tips are freely
shared on the internet. In Rich's case if he really wants to set a world
record I feel it would be quite easy for him to move up to the Modified
Conversion Class and take the two existing records in MC/D and MC/E which
are in the 18s. This pushes the limits and the sport whenever existing
records fall. It makes the person that just lost their record try harder to
reclaim it. This is the competitive spirit we wish to capture.
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA President
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 6:26 AM
Subject: RE: NEDRA Wattage Classes
Bil wrote:
Rich Rudman was whining recently that his front wheel drive car was
at a disadvantage to the rear wheel drive cars. Yes, it is true that, on
the
drag strip, powerful front wheel drive cars do not get the traction that
rear wheel drive cars easily archive. This is exactly why I stopped drag
racing my Wabbit and built a completely different vehicle (the
KillaCycle.)
I realized that I was "pushing on a rope" and built a rear wheel drive
vehicle. Rich needs to switch over to a rear wheel drive car if he wants
to
be more competitive. Plenty of rear wheel drive gliders to be had for not
much money.
I have to agree with the decisions that NEDRA has made so far on how to
classify the cars. However, I think NEDRA should consider further
classifying the SC class into FWD and RWD. The only reason I would support
this splitting of the class is because the general "goal" of a NEDRA drag
race is to be the quickest or the fastest, as oppossed to an NHRA drag
race whose goal is to be the most consistent (bracket racing).
In that scenario yes RWD has a distinct and unfair advantage over the FWD,
in a bracket race that advantage is removed.
As I see it, at this stage of growth, NEDRA is all about setting new
records, not consistency. Which, in my opinion, is right where NEDRA
should be. Perhaps in the future when there are many more NEDRA racers
(and races) a switch to bracket racing will be warranted. But not yet.
Put the 4WD's in with the RWD's, but split the FWD's apart on their own.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
Ford
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought the control algorithm was simpler, pulse-square wave control for
BLDC vs synthesized sine wave for induction. Also al the Japanese EV's used
BLDC's previously as they were more common over there and the 60hertz AC
Induction motors are more common over here (why all the American made EV's
were induction). mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 9:17 PM
Subject: BLDC system versus AC induction
> I think the Prius, Insight and Civic Hybrids use
> Brushless DC motors (synchronous AC or permanent
> magnet brushless). Since these motors are more
> expensive to produce, why do all of the hybrids use
> this type of motor? A well designed BLDC is more
> efficient than an AC induction, but not by much. Do
> these motor regen much better in this application?
> This is the only simplistic reason I can come up with
> to explain the added expense of this motor in a
> hybrid.
> If anybody has application notes or technical
> descriptions via the interenet I would appreciate this
> info.
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've done some updating to my copy of Uve's EV Calculator
(http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html) and find that in including
the Exide Orbital and Deka Intimidator to the battery input, I've eliminated
any flooded 12V batteries! Since these aren't known for great range or cycle
life, I wasn't sure if anyone would care. Also, are there any other entries I
can add? If you can supply the specs (motors, batteries, whatever), please send
them to me: cowtown @ spamcop.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
IMO these motors are great. We have a complete ranger drive in our
shop right now which we are putting into a dodge neon.
However, the motors offered by Electro Mavin are only the bare
motors. The ranger drive has a differential (and I think a
gear reduction) added to it that also has a "park" position.
The half-shafts are then coupled directly to this motor/differential
combination. The motor for sale is missing all this.
Also they do not sell matching inverters and I think the inverter
is actually the expensive part in such a system. On the EV trading
post I saw an AC traction controller for sale in about the right
power range. Maybe somebody could combine the two and adapt them to
each other. For me this would be too much of a task and risk, I
would rather pay more and get a warranted and working solution from
MetricMind.
Markus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 5:14 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List;
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Siemens motors
>
>
> Electro Mavin co. has the following Siemens AC Induction
> Electric Vehicle
> motors FOR SALE...
>
> AC ELECTRIC MOTORS made by SIEMENS as used in the FORD
> ELECTRIC RANGERS
>
> We do not have any Inverters or Controllers or
> Batteries.....just the above
> mentioned motors only
>
> This is the situation with these Ranger motors. Does anyone
> know if there
> are off the shelf solutions for these? Is an adapter needed
> or will it bolt
> right into a Ranger or a gear reduction Lawrence Rhodes.......
>
>
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee etc.
But cars have used a fixed float voltage for EON's and the batteries last
fairly long. I set my DC converter to 14.2V which seams like the best
compromise in momentary (1 hour drive time nominal) float charging (under
load 13.8V). There isn't any starter in an EV, so the 14.5V that most ICE's
use would be too high. I've used a U-1 battery on my EV's and usually last
the duration of how long I keep it, about 5 years.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:14 PM
Subject: Re: 12 v system battery question
> Seth Allen wrote:
> > As for the price: You will find that Vicor DC-DCs cost about a
> > buck a watt or more when purchased in high quantity. And that
> > Solectria DC-DC is more than a Vicor in terms of parts (housing,
> > heatsink, PCB, engineering) and labor, overhead, etc.
>
> Yes; the Vicor module is 90% of a DC/DC converter, but you still need
> all those little "extra parts" if it is to work right. Basically, it
> needs:
>
> - noise filters
> - fault protection (fuses, overtemp limiters, etc.)
> - protection diodes (or your battery will discharge back into
> the Vicor when off)
>
> > I always *heard* that they functioned best as a standalone 12V.
> > My suspicion (and it is just that) is that there is not enough
> > resistance between the Vicor and a battery to make life easy on
> > the Vicor regulator.
>
> Correct. The standard Vicor modules are *NOT* battery chargers. They are
> precision voltage regulated power supplies. You aren't taking proper
> care of a battery by forcing a constant voltage across it. If there is
> no voltage change across the battery, then there is never any
> charge/discharge current. You don't need the battery at all in these
> circumstances -- you might as well replace it with a big capacitor.
>
> If you *do* have a battery, then you need a reasonable charging
> algorithm for it. The voltage *has* to be allowed to rise and fall for
> the battery to deliver any energy, and for it to properly recharge
> afterwards.
>
> Vicor makes special versions of their DC/DCs for battery charging; the
> Batmods. They work well with batteries.
>
> Or, you can add parts external to the standard Vicors to accomplish the
> necessary functions. Basically, a series diode and fuse (with their
> associated resistance0 are a good start. From there, you need to trim
> the Vicor's voltage to steer it toward some charging algorithm.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<< I don't know if anyone mentioned this exactly, but how about an alternator
driven off of the motor shaft WITH a magnetic clutch like the ones used on some
air conditioners. The clutch could be switched on the accelerator pedal to
engage when your foot comes totally off. This would give everyone some motor
braking, and can be thrown together quite easily with parts from the salvage
yard. >>
If you've got an EV small enough to use whats available, you'd be better off
with a SepEx setup - you get regen and simplified reverse, and you'll have
enough power saved to run a DC-to-DC converter with some left over! Too bad the
largest SepEx controllers are only 96V/500A from ZAPI or 80V/600A from Curtis.
<< It just makes good sense to use a light weight DC-DC combined with a small
stout AGM type 12V battery for your EV's 12V system. It works better than the
car's original system, it's more efficient, it's reliable, and it takes up
little under-hood space.
See Ya...John Wayland >>
In contrast, it's not really a factor in a 3-ton EV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Mike,
based on all the suggestions sounds like front suspension needs
thorough check. Got to complete the BMS first though...
Victor
Mike Chancey wrote:
Victor here is another thought for you.
You might want to carefully check the upper control arms, especially the
passenger side. The pivots on the inboard side often wear oddly and
allow excessive motion. This seems to be a fairly high wear item on 4th
generation (88-91) Civic and CRXs. When they go bad they can allow the
upper end of the spindle to shift quite a bit, seriously effecting
suspension geometry. I think the passenger side arm wears a bit faster
because most folks turn left at higher speeds than they turn right
(trying to clear oncoming traffic) and thus transfer more stress onto
that side.
You may have to lift the car on stand to check this, with the weight of
the car on it, it may not move by hand.
I've had to replace the upper arms on all three of our 4gen Civics.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 22, 2005, at 6:00, Brian Staffanson wrote:
...is it possible to make a DC series motor, specifically a Prestolite
MTC 4001, motor reverse rotation[?]
Yes, but you need a pair of double-throw contactors to reverse the
field windings while keeping the armature the same polarity (or the
other way around). A set costs around $320 for a medium-sized one.
-Frank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't make the assumption that ICE vehicle batteries always receive a
fixed 14.4V charge!
Measure the voltage of your car's battery on a typical drive. Mine
just barely reaches 14.2V after an hour driving, and stays below 14V
with the headlights on.
I guess it might reach 14.4V after driving all day just running the
ignition, but I suspect that the alternator would be hot by then and
would have backed the voltage off even further.
But then, perhaps that is what's best for the maintenance-free,
flooded starter battery - not what is normally used for the EV
accessory battery.
I use a 17AH "gel" UPS battery, and a 30A DC-DC convertor set to about
13.9V (all the way up).
On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 11:04:44 -0500, Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Lee etc.
> But cars have used a fixed float voltage for EON's and the batteries last
> fairly long. I set my DC converter to 14.2V which seams like the best
> compromise in momentary (1 hour drive time nominal) float charging (under
> load 13.8V). There isn't any starter in an EV, so the 14.5V that most ICE's
> use would be too high. I've used a U-1 battery on my EV's and usually last
> the duration of how long I keep it, about 5 years.
> Mark
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:14 PM
> Subject: Re: 12 v system battery question
>
> > Seth Allen wrote:
> > > As for the price: You will find that Vicor DC-DCs cost about a
> > > buck a watt or more when purchased in high quantity. And that
> > > Solectria DC-DC is more than a Vicor in terms of parts (housing,
> > > heatsink, PCB, engineering) and labor, overhead, etc.
> >
> > Yes; the Vicor module is 90% of a DC/DC converter, but you still need
> > all those little "extra parts" if it is to work right. Basically, it
> > needs:
> >
> > - noise filters
> > - fault protection (fuses, overtemp limiters, etc.)
> > - protection diodes (or your battery will discharge back into
> > the Vicor when off)
> >
> > > I always *heard* that they functioned best as a standalone 12V.
> > > My suspicion (and it is just that) is that there is not enough
> > > resistance between the Vicor and a battery to make life easy on
> > > the Vicor regulator.
> >
> > Correct. The standard Vicor modules are *NOT* battery chargers. They are
> > precision voltage regulated power supplies. You aren't taking proper
> > care of a battery by forcing a constant voltage across it. If there is
> > no voltage change across the battery, then there is never any
> > charge/discharge current. You don't need the battery at all in these
> > circumstances -- you might as well replace it with a big capacitor.
> >
> > If you *do* have a battery, then you need a reasonable charging
> > algorithm for it. The voltage *has* to be allowed to rise and fall for
> > the battery to deliver any energy, and for it to properly recharge
> > afterwards.
> >
> > Vicor makes special versions of their DC/DCs for battery charging; the
> > Batmods. They work well with batteries.
> >
> > Or, you can add parts external to the standard Vicors to accomplish the
> > necessary functions. Basically, a series diode and fuse (with their
> > associated resistance0 are a good start. From there, you need to trim
> > the Vicor's voltage to steer it toward some charging algorithm.
> > --
> > "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> > citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> > has!" -- Margaret Mead
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
>
> Rich Rudman was whining recently that his front wheel drive car was at a
> disadvantage to the rear wheel drive cars. Yes, it is true that, on the
> drag strip, powerful front wheel drive cars do not get the traction that
> rear wheel drive cars easily archive. This is exactly why I stopped drag
> racing my Wabbit and built a completely different vehicle (the
KillaCycle.)
> I realized that I was "pushing on a rope" and built a rear wheel drive
> vehicle. Rich needs to switch over to a rear wheel drive car if he wants
to
> be more competitive. Plenty of rear wheel drive gliders to be had for not
> much money.
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
Or is this the tech inspector whining because I have kicked your but with
Goldie everytime The Wabbit showed up at the track????
Oh no this couldn't be...
Or the fact the Robert Salem will clobber either one of our Tin Can Econo
Boxes with a Pick up truck??
What about the Fiero in the shop??? Got it converted it... Fear crushing the
tranny.....Sigh..... gotta find something I can stuff a narrowed 9 incher
into the back of.
So I already have a rear driver that did wheel stands..
There are sub 10 second Rice Rockets out there Bill. The hard part would be
making our front drive boxes DO the 12s and the 11s that they could do with
the power we have on tap.
And Yea I know there's no way in Heck Goldie can do 11 and 12 right now.
Goldie will go as fast as her Tranny will take her, it's that simple. I have
one back up tranny , and probably can get many more. It's a good gamble on
finding 2 seconds of ET and 20 MPH.
I will be tickled with either.
Lets make it clear I am not Whining for a new class, just pointing out there
are some real inequalities in the current class structure.
You Bill are the tech Guy... Improvements should be made and discussed. Not
just swept away. The issues will come back and if you don't take them into
account, they are a serious force that could break NEDRA into ever smaller
less effective racing groups.
I seriously suggest you let the "Power class" guys try thier best to make a
fair set of class Rules. If they fail, OK we told them so... if they
succede, Great! we let them grow and prosper.
Since any class is really made up of those that want to play by some agreed
upon rules. Let 'em try. Hold thier hands, take notes, and see what happens.
Just saying "it won't work", makes you Bill, a sitting Duck, and you don't
need that right now.
Lead Damit!!!
Or follow or get out of my way.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have looked around for controllers for these motors
and the best I have found makes them more expensive
than buying the whole system from Victor. There is
also the problem of connecting to a hollow shaft with
spiral splines.
Gadget
--- Markus L <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lawrence,
>
> IMO these motors are great. We have a complete
> ranger drive in our
> shop right now which we are putting into a dodge
> neon.
>
> However, the motors offered by Electro Mavin are
> only the bare
> motors. The ranger drive has a differential (and I
> think a
> gear reduction) added to it that also has a "park"
> position.
> The half-shafts are then coupled directly to this
> motor/differential
> combination. The motor for sale is missing all this.
>
> Also they do not sell matching inverters and I think
> the inverter
> is actually the expensive part in such a system. On
> the EV trading
> post I saw an AC traction controller for sale in
> about the right
> power range. Maybe somebody could combine the two
> and adapt them to
> each other. For me this would be too much of a task
> and risk, I
> would rather pay more and get a warranted and
> working solution from
> MetricMind.
>
> Markus
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Lawrence Rhodes
> > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 5:14 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List;
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Siemens motors
> >
> >
> > Electro Mavin co. has the following Siemens AC
> Induction
> > Electric Vehicle
> > motors FOR SALE...
> >
> > AC ELECTRIC MOTORS made by SIEMENS as used in the
> FORD
> > ELECTRIC RANGERS
> >
> > We do not have any Inverters or Controllers or
> > Batteries.....just the above
> > mentioned motors only
> >
> > This is the situation with these Ranger motors.
> Does anyone
> > know if there
> > are off the shelf solutions for these? Is an
> adapter needed
> > or will it bolt
> > right into a Ranger or a gear reduction Lawrence
> Rhodes.......
> >
> >
> > Lawrence Rhodes
> > Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> > Reedmaker
> > Book 4/5 doubler
> > Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 415-821-3519
> >
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi guys, most of you won't care but I'm going to sign off for a
while...back this summer. keep on grinnin' the grin.
seth
--
'72 Datsun 240Z Electric Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The voltage during charge is 155. The charger turned off. It's possible
since I turned the charger off manually when it hit 1 amp it under charged.
This is right at the target voltage for U.S. 125 batteries. I'll drive the
truck today and see if I get any better range. The resting pack voltage for
the 120v system is 127.67 after 6 hours resting at 60� and the 12v battery
was 13.08. I will measure voltages later in the charge cycle tonight.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Chmielewski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Lawrence Rhodes'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 6:56 AM
Subject: RE: 9776 Lestronic
Lawrence,
Tha actual target voltage maximum is 156 volts for a 120V pack and 15.6
volts for a 12 volt pack -- the charger should turn off very close to these
values, it appears your batteries are almost there, but not quite.
The low current output at the voltages you indicate is a bit suspicious.
Normally current flow does not drop this low. If you are connected to
230VAC and charging a 120 volt pack the current rate should taper to down to
between 6 to 8 amps at which point the target voltage is reached and the
charger turns off.
Are you seeing maximum current output (>20 amps) when the charger starts?
If we have a problem causing low output the charger will obviously take
longer to charge. Please confirm this start current for me.
I'll probably call you later today, I talk a lot faster than I type!
Thank you,
George Chmielewski
Customer Service/Tech. Rep.
402 441 3720 ext 273
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 2:56 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: 9776 Lestronic
My 9776 Lestronic goes to 1 amp at 120vdc and 4 amps 12vdc.The voltage is
just above 150vdc and the 12v system is a little over 14vdc. It doesn't
seem to turn off. .I am in San Francisco and the temp is about 65�. Should
I just let it go and see if it turns off over a longer time period?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
