EV Digest 4118
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV Calculator update
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: "on light"
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Re: Honda EV using too many amps?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV digest 4117 (BLDC paper)
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Constant rpm
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: reversing DC motor
by "Ivo Jara" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Tour de Sol Registration and Entry Forms
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: reversing DC motor
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: "on light"
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Running Amps
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 12V System Battery Info
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Honda EV using too many amps?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 12V System Battery Info
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Constant rpm
by "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Industrial charger
by "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 12V System Battery Info
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Honda EV using too many amps?
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 12V battery stuff - capacitors
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV digest 4116
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Feb 2005 at 7:55, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I've eliminated
> any flooded 12V batteries! Since these aren't known for great range or cycle
> life, I wasn't sure if anyone would care.
Flooded 12v are still an option under some circumstances, esp. where the
current required is low. Besides, having them in the table shows clearly
what their limitations are. I say leave 'em in.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument.
-- William G. McAdoo
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 5:17 PM -0700 2-22-05, Keith Richtman wrote:
Frank Schmitt said:
The downside for a pure electric vehicle is that they are (for lack of
a better term) "self-excited," so that even when no power is applied
they produce some drag, both in the form of cogging torque and iron
(eddy current) losses.
That is a common misconception. Cogging torque is not a loss, for all
practical purposes it takes the same amount of energy to uncog it and as
it recovers when recogging. The last cog as it hits zero speed is lost
energy, but that isn't really the issue here.
Keith
Cogging torque may not be a loss, but eddy current losses sure are.
The big problem with BLDC motors as I see it is that the light load
efficiency is quite poor, especially at high rpm. This is because the
field strength is set for maximum torque and all that field cuts
through the stator laminations even when coasting. Most modern cars
cruise at about 10% power. Not being able to reduce the field
strength of the PM rotor causes high eddy current losses in the BLDC
stack.
I once asked A Uniq engineer what losses his motor made with the car
coasting at 60 mph. He said about 1500 watts. I think it was a 100 hp
motor. Sounds like a lot to me.
It's that reason that I prefer induction for on road EV's.
OTOH, if your car cruises at 50% of peak power (a very weak car) then
the BLDC could certainly be more efficient.
I can see it now: A 10KW BLDC mated to a 100KW induction. Best of
both worlds! Just costs a bit more.
My 2 Gauss worth.....
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Schanab wrote:
<SNIP>
What do you guys do to remind yourself your car is "on"
On my Civic I changed the red filter behind the battery warning indicator
to green and used that. My Force has no power on light, and I think that
is an oversight. I may have to add one.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No problem Chip. Just use 'AA' for 300V+, 'AAA' for 360V+, etc. Kinda like
wire sizes...........
Darin Gilbert
-------------- Original message from "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
--------------
> I just checked and the Records page seems alive and well.
>
> Also, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by backwards. I'm guessing you mean
> that the "A" voltage division should be 24 volts and below and "J" should be
> 241 volts and above.
>
> With having "A" as being 241 and above we haven't left room for people
> running 400 volt plus vehicles since they would be grouped with the 241 +
> volts. Is that what you mean?
>
> Chip Gribben
> NEDRA Webmaster
> http://www.nedra.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James D Thompson"
> To:
> Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:15 PM
> Subject: Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
>
>
> > >This pushes the limits and the sport whenever existing records fall. It
> > >makes the person that just lost their record try harder to reclaim it.
> > >This is the competitive spirit we wish to capture.
> >
> > On that subject, the Records page of the NEDRA website has wandered off
> > the Internet.
> >
> > David Thompson, oh and y'all set up the voltage classes backwards...
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike I just tried your car in the EV Calc, and when I set the tire drag to
.015 (normal tires) It comes out 298 watt hours per mile, range 25.7 miles
at 60 mph in third gear. Pretty close to what your getting. My guess
would be excess drag in the wheel bearings, brakes, or despite the fact
that it was checked, still the alignment. Any chance you have a warped
brake rotor dragging? Another thing to check is the accuracy of your tire
gauge. I had one that read 40 but when check with another gauge the tire
was found to actually be at 31 PSI.
Hills can make a huge difference, even modest ones have an impact.
BTW, Solectria specs its alignments at 0 tow in. I am not sure how well
that would work on a Civic. I had mine aligned to factory specs, but I
asked them to go as near 0 tow as the acceptable range allowed.
I have to admit, I have always thought the EV Calc was a bit
optimistic. Has anyone ever tried doing a drag test to validate some of
the numbers? Maybe a tow rope and a fish scale to see if the drag is accurate.
My Civic runs about 300 watt hours per mile, but that is up and down hills
in stop and go traffic. With its current batteries, serious highway runs
are not really an option.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't see anything in that paper other than a pretty basic
description of a BLDC motor in a truck. I still say they did it for
packaging and mass, but that is a guess. NREL has some pretty good
papers on the Insight and Prius. I can try to look them up when I get
back from my trip. Never been to JPL before so that should be fun.
Seth
On Feb 23, 2005, at 2:23 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
<EV__digest_4117>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The motor will change RPM under load, especially if it is series
wound. Series wound motors are often used for hydraulic pumps, but if
the load is not continuous it is a good idea to have the motor switch
off or slow down when all the valves are centred, which saves battery
power apart from anything.
Also, do you really need a 20hp rated motor? Remember that a much
smaller rated motor (perhaps 6hp) can deliver 20hp or more for short
periods, if that's what you need. You may be able to find a smaller
shunt wound motor that will work out.
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 12:11:40 -0400, Deuville's Rink
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi guys, Zamboni conversion fellow again, I am having a hard time locating a
> 20 hp Shunt wound motor with 2400 rpm. If I use a series wound with a
> controller what kind of rpm stability will I achieve? The motor will be
> running hydraulics only( Hydrostatic trans and pump for augars etc) I am
> nervous that the motor will change it's rpm under different loads and battery
> voltages.
>
> All comments welcomed
> Ellery
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark, in late sixties cars, there was a pull lever for revers on the
shifter, you placed your hand on the shifter, and with your index and middle
finger you pulled from two hooks under it, you had to pull about half an
inch to be able to shift in reverse, that is one of the safest ways that i
know of to avoid accidentally engaging reverse, look for this feature in
1960-1974 stick shift dodges, and in some mustangs.
Good luck
Ivo.
-----Mensaje original-----
De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre
de Mark Farver
Enviado el: martes, 22 de febrero de 2005 13:47
Para: [email protected]
Asunto: Re: reversing DC motor
Brian Staffanson wrote:
>I am still having problems with getting the transmission into reverse. I
know the clutch disengages the motor, and that I can switch from first, into
neutral, thru fourth, and feel the difference in gearing, so I know that the
transmission isn't stuck in a gear. So I am wondering, is it possible to
make a DC series motor, specifically a Prestolite MTC 4001, motor reverse
rotation. I understand that just changing polarity to the motor doesn't do
a thing in this regard, as I have read it changes polarity of both rotor and
stator. If this it true, can I reverse the rotation? And if I can do that,
what would the VW transmission do? Would the gears in there allow a reverse
rotation? An easy, and inexpensive fix would make me happiest, but I do
want this little car running soon, so I would be happy with any answer that
would work. Thanks,
>Brian
>
>
>
Its not difficult, you just need a "reversing contactor" set available
from most of the EV parts suppliers. You can see the wiring diagram in
the Zilla manual on CafeElectric's site (http://www.cafeelectric.com)
but basically you flip one coil of the motor without flipping hte other
and it runs in reverse. Transmissions do not seem to have any issues
with this in the relatively short distances you drive in reverse.
My MR2 is also nearly impossible to shift into reverse, clutch engaged
or not. It works best if the motor is turning slowly with the clutch
disengaged. I suspect the clutch even when disengaged allows the motor
to turn the input shaft enough to just enough syncronize the reverse
gears. I'll probably install a set of reversing contactors just to save
the hassle. Now I need to figure out a logical and unlikely to be
accidentally pressed FWD/REV switch. Maybe a recessed pushbutton in the
shift arm...
Mark
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--- Begin Message ---
Dear friends of the Tour de Sol:
Spring - and the Tour de Sol - is just around the corner!
Registration is now open for:
- Tour de Sol Championship - 4-day event for Prototype and Production Vehicles.
See:
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/2005championship.html
- Monte Carlo-style Rally - 1-2 day event for advanced vehicle owners. See:
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/2005montecarloevent.html
- E-bike, E-scooter, and NEV events - 2-day event for hobbiests and
manufacturers. See:
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/ebikes.html
Each event listed above has its own registration form - please see attached -
or visit our web site at www.TourdeSol.org. On our web site you will also find
detailed information on registration deadlines, Rules, Regulations, and Awards
of these events.
Organized by the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) our 2005 Tour
de Sol has new exciting competitions, and a wonderful new venue - ideal for a
get-a-way weekend and much more!
Our weekend destination is Saratoga's Spring Auto Show held one of the most
beautiful and historic spas in the United States. The Saratoga Spa State Park
offers 250 landscaped acres, historic buildings with mineral spring baths,
golf, walking an biking trails, the historic Gideon Putnam Hotel, the Saratoga
Performing Arts Center, and our host, the Saratoga Auto Museum.
Following our exciting weekend activities, Tour de Sol participants will
display their vehicles with Clean Cities Stakeholders, in Albany at the New
York Sate capitol, just 35 miles south of Saratoga Springs, and visit with
decision-makers.
Don't miss out!
Register today.
Tour de Sol early registration deadline is March 1!
Entry details at:
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/involved/enter.html
Registration form and deadlines:
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/a05-Reg%20Forms.doc
If you have questions, email the contacts listed below, or join us for Q&A any
Thursday at 5:30pm by calling 508-995-6619 code: 523.
Sincerely,
Nancy Hazard NESEA Executive Director
For the many Tour de Sol volunteers
PS. NESEA will supply all vehicle numbers this year for Championship, E-bikes,
& Monte Carlo participants. If you have a car, please save a space on each
side of your vehicle for number and event ID: 12"high x 18" wide.
E-bikes - you can cut out the numbers and ID info to fit your bike.
If you have questions, please contact:
Tour de Sol Championship:
Pat Skelly: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
or call 609-586-6992 day or evening.
Monte Carlo-style Rally:
Craig Van Battenburg: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
E-bikes & Scooters:
Josh Kerson: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
NEVs & Exhibit:
Nancy Hazard: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
submitted on behalf of the Tour de Sol by Mike Bianchi
17th Annual Tour de Sol
May 13-16, 2005 in Saratoga and Albany, NY
Featuring New Events, Competitions, Activities Leading the Way to a
Sustainable Energy and Transportation Future, A Green "Car Show" and More
www.TourDeSol.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
> Asunto: Re: reversing DC motor
>
> Brian Staffanson wrote:
>
> >I am still having problems with getting the transmission into reverse.
Snip a bit!
Hi Brian;
Can I ad my two amps worth? Seems like a lotta hassle to reverse
electricly especially since ya have the tranny in place already.IMHO .FIX
the damn linkage! You will be very happy with the stick shift option the car
came with! Believe me(82 Rabbit 4 an' 5 speed boxes at differant times). You
may have a mechanical issue with your coupling, throwout bearing, Mis
alignment etc. So the clutch can't really disingage? I hada 82 ,5 speed
Jetta. The tranny linkage drove me NUTS . Tony Ascrizzi borrowed the car a
weekend and fixed it for me, HE knew how to adjust the @#$% VW splined
shifter arm on the shaft that goes to the shifter, so reverse didn't get
mixed up with first, no 5th ,and like that.
So find a VW independent garage, those guyz that love VDubs, the'll
crawl under and work their magic or will tell you what's wrong.There are
other guyz with Tony's happy mechanical judgment, that can fix it for you.
Good Luck
Bob..82 Rabbit electric
I
> know the clutch disengages the motor, and that I can switch from first,
into
> neutral, thru fourth, and feel the difference in gearing, so I know that
the
> transmission isn't stuck in a gear. So I am wondering, is it possible to
> make a DC series motor, specifically a Prestolite MTC 4001, motor reverse
> rotation. I understand that just changing polarity to the motor doesn't
do
> a thing in this regard, as I have read it changes polarity of both rotor
and
> stator. If this it true, can I reverse the rotation? And if I can do
that,
> what would the VW transmission do? Would the gears in there allow a
reverse
> rotation? An easy, and inexpensive fix would make me happiest, but I do
> want this little car running soon, so I would be happy with any answer
that
> would work. Thanks,
> >Brian
> >
> >
> >
> Its not difficult, you just need a "reversing contactor" set available
> from most of the EV parts suppliers. You can see the wiring diagram in
> the Zilla manual on CafeElectric's site (http://www.cafeelectric.com)
> but basically you flip one coil of the motor without flipping hte other
> and it runs in reverse. Transmissions do not seem to have any issues
> with this in the relatively short distances you drive in reverse.
>
> My MR2 is also nearly impossible to shift into reverse, clutch engaged
> or not. It works best if the motor is turning slowly with the clutch
> disengaged. I suspect the clutch even when disengaged allows the motor
> to turn the input shaft enough to just enough syncronize the reverse
> gears. I'll probably install a set of reversing contactors just to save
> the hassle. Now I need to figure out a logical and unlikely to be
> accidentally pressed FWD/REV switch. Maybe a recessed pushbutton in the
> shift arm...
>
> Mark
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 22/02/2005
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used the actual battery light! Now it stays on when
the car is on! I love that.
Just needed to get the actual shop manual from Helm,
in my case, and trace the wiring. Grounding it turns
it on.
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jeff Schanab wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> >What do you guys do to remind yourself your car is
> "on"
>
> On my Civic I changed the red filter behind the
> battery warning indicator
> to green and used that. My Force has no power on
> light, and I think that
> is an oversight. I may have to add one.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at:
> http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
djsharpe wrote:
> With regard to speed v/s Amps for a smallish veh such as a Charade could
> anyone advise likely current needed for traction at various speeds up to
> 60mph
> Regards
> David Sharpe
My Datsun 1200, Blue Meanie, currently runs on 156V. At 2340 lbs. With a small
profile and
weighing just 2340 lbs., and with LRR tires pumped up to 50 psi, it rolls very
easily and
requires very little power. At 40 mph, it uses about 30 amps, at 45 mph, about
38 amps, at
50 mph, around 45-47 amps, and at 55 mph on level ground the amps match the
speed at 55
amps, and at 60 with wind drag coming more into play it rises to around 70-75
amps.
The above explains why this car can do 25 miles per charge on just 13 Optimas.
It also
explains why, when the hammer goes down and the DCP Raptor 1200 pegs the 1000
amp Emeter,
the car goes like hell. It's just a light, fun little car with more power than
it really
has to have...I love it!
At 55 mph for a half hour, you've gone 27-28 miles while using 27-28 ahrs. This
is pretty
much what the car does. On a strong pack that isn't 5 years old, I can extract
25 ahrs
pretty easily, and have pulled up to 31 ahrs from the pack, though this last
figure is a
full 100% type discharge. This past weekend, Tim Brehm and I took the car out
together
over to Harbor Freight, about 9 miles from my house. It made the 18 mile trip
without much
fuss, this after the car hadn't been driven for a while, and on 5 year old
batteries with
500+ cycles on them. I did drive it conservatively, and the pack wasn't as
stiff as it
could have been. On the other hand, after a strong drink from the PFC charger
at 29.5
amps, the pack seemed to be woken up when Tim got to nail it a few times!
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <>
It just makes good sense to use a light weight DC-DC combined with a small
stout AGM
type 12V battery for your EV's 12V system. It works better than the car's
original system,
it's more efficient, it's reliable, and it takes up little under-hood
space.
What if your voltage is over 156v , but not over 240 . I'm thinking about
using two dc to dc's on Paul's 22 orbital car , and have them in series .
Then across each one have a large 190 v zener diode with transistor to
balance the load , I'm thinking that putting each one (dc converter's) on
11 batteries might unbalance the pack if one converter uses more that the
outer. I have also been thinking about trying to make a small converter that
would go from over 180v to 180 and handle 4 amps as to power these dc 120v
converter's . Funny but now that I can't buy a dcp dc to dc which would do
the job , I'm ready to ( well , spend somebody else money) , . So with the
problems above putting an alternator on the front of the motor has some
points , It wouldn't have to be belt driven , could go with a lov joy
coupler and for day time driving use the brake switch to turn it on or off
along with something that would switch it on when ever the 12 v alx got
below , say 11.5 .
Of course then we don't get our nice 14v which realy is needed to run things
right.
Steve Clunn Looking for a Nice Neat solution to all my problems
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Iron Mountain Films" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 7:19 PM
Subject: Honda EV using too many amps?
> I have a converted 1992 Civic DX- 96 volts 16 US 125's 8" ADC motor just
replaced, Curtis 1231 77 controller, integrity goodyears in front, nearly
bald Invicta GLR's in rear around 40 + lbs of air in each. I had the front
alignment checked. I live in sacramento so there are few hills. I can't
seem to get better than 290 wh/mile. by my E-meter (also just sent in) I am
burning about 3 to 3.2 amp hours per mile. This is a mix of surface streets
and freeway. On a pure freeway run it is roughly the same usage. I run
about 150 to 170 amps at 55 mph on the flat. Car was weighed before I
bought it and I believe that figure is about 3100 lbs. I am using a Zivan NG
3 charger. I've checked the specific gravity of the batteries, all looks
excellent. resting voltage 102.5 volts hours after charge. My range is about
25 miles max. around the 20 mile mark I have to watch for voltage sagging
below 80 volts. Do I have a problem with internal battery resistance or
drive train dr!
> ag? How
> can I check these things? I tried Uve's calculator using the 88 civic dx
vehicle, it says I should get like 60 or 70 miles range I must be doing
something wrong there. Lee Hart's and Bob Bath's civics do 45+ miles at 144
volts. I would be estatic with even 30 or 40. Anybody have any ideas?
> Hi Mike;
Yes! After you drive awile at higher amps. Stop, open yur battery boxes
and feel around your terminal connections. Any hot, warm, or HOT? Too hot to
trouch? Converters often over look these things. You could be dropping
several volts, in resistance, turned to heat. Do this with all your traction
cabling, you may be surprised.I have gotten my voltage sag down to about 5
volts with a 120 volt system@ say, 150-200 amps. All my terminals are
soldered, and are good quality cast ones from my local battery
distributer.Not wanting to reignite the crimping vs soldering thing again,
it works for me.
Happier Motoring
Bob
> Mike Malmberg
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Nick Viera wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > John Wayland wrote:
> > It just makes good sense to use a light weight DC-DC combined with a
> > small stout AGM type 12V battery for your EV's 12V system. It works
> > better than the car's original system,
>
> I guess the success of this system really depends on how powerful the
> DC/DC converter is?
True.
>
>
> My current 12 volt system setup is a DCP DC/DC converter and a Hawker
> Odyssey PC625 battery. I still have a lot of voltage fluctuations in the
> system (dimming lights, etc..) using this setup. I know that my MR2
> power steering pump is the main cause, as I have it connected directly
> to 12 volts anytime my Jeep is on and it pulls a lot of power.
Sure it is. It pulls up to 50 amps. The power steering pump alone, can make for
a 20 amp deficit
when you only have a30 amp DC-DC.
>
> It seems that the 30-amp output of the DC/DC isn't enough when I'm using
> this pump and other things (vacuum pump, headlights, wipers, etc) or
> when I'm making tight turns, as the voltage sags down in the 12 volt
> range (even though the DC/DC "ignition on" voltage is set to the highest
> setting).
Exactly. I am often called by those who are developing EV products for my input
on things. Such was
the case when the DCP guys were designed their DC-DC. I was quite vocal about
how the 30 amp output
wasn't high enough...alas, the power level stayed at 30 amps. I believe that
for most conversion
applications, 40 amps is a minimum, and, if you're looking at power steering
operating off the 12V
system, 75 amps is more in order. Red Beastie used twin DC-DC converters, a 40
amp model and a 30
amp model, plus, it had an Optima Yellow Top to act as a current reservoir to
prevent brown-outs,
such as when one turned the steering wheel into a locked mode and the pump
pulled 50 amps. With the
Optima held at 14+ volts most of the time while the truck was being run, even
when 12V system
current draws exceeded the 70 amps of DC-DC power, voltage only sagged to the
mid 13's for the 5-10
second high current peaks. Of course, a continual draw in excess of 70 amps
could eventually bring
the system to the mid 12V area, but I found that never to be the case, as you
have to be an idiot to
simply hold the steering wheel in the locked mode purposefully.
>
> I'm (slowly) building a PWM circuit for the P/S pump, so hopefully that
> will take some load off the 12 volt system (as I'll be able to slow or
> stop the pump when not turning).
>
> At least things have improved some since I ditched the flooded U1
> battery I had and got the Hawker. Though, the amount of voltage sag is
> still borderline unacceptable...
Todd made a 75 amp DC-DC, though it might be hard to find one these days. You
could sell the DCP
DC-DC, as for an EVer with an older conversion that doesn't have power steering
or electric window
defrosters, it can work well, then replace it with enough converter power to do
the job correctly.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While I am not sure of the hp I need for sure, the gas motor is about 45 hp.
The Zamboni weighs about 6000 lbs (without batteries) and the machine planes
the ice which takes a fair amount of power especially when the blade gets dull,
The augars pick up the snow and throw it into the snow tank, all run through
hydraulics. I would rather have more then not enough. The Shunt wound certainly
is the way to go as I have already converted one with that kind of motor and it
was easy and simple and works great, however that was found after the junking
of a large industrial machine that the chap wanted the hydraulics off of and no
need of the motor, it was some kind of forklift made in Germany, I do have two
curtis controllers on my first tractor conversion and am thinking I may try
the series motors as they are easier to pick up (electric forklift) I am lucky
that weight is actually better as it gives more traction on the ice.
Ellery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My battery pack is getting old and the Zamboni is slowing down. I am running 13
deep cycle and have been charging with an industrial charger that offers 12,
24, 36, 48 and 72 volt settings. I found that the charger was putting out about
95 volts and around 50 Amps and could handle the 13 batteries at the 72 volt
setting. I added another battery yesterday unsure if the charger would be able
to handle the higher battery voltage. To my surprise the charger voltage
increased to 110 volts as the batteries neared full charge.
Can someone explain why the voltage on the charger increases as the batteries
get charged and how the 72 volt charger can charge a 84 volt pack of batteries?
I have charged the pack about 1500-2000 times and I will be honest very little
care of the pack, flood the ice plug the battery pack to the charger for 30-45
minutes, when I come back for he next flood if I smelled the batteries strong I
shut the charger off, checked the water every couple of weeks and still managed
a good number of recharges.
This sure is complicated field.
You guys have helped a lot and I appreciate your comments and suggestions
Ellery
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
> What if your voltage is over 156v, but not over 240. I'm thinking
> about using two DC/DCs on Paul's 22 orbital car, and have them in
> series.
22 x 12v = 264vdc nominal. That's close enough to 220vac x 1.4 = 308vdc
so almost any standard switching power supply will work fine (set for
240vac input, of course).
DON'T wire the inputs in series! Their inputs are NOT resistive, and
they won't share the load!
If you have two DC/DCs with a true 132vdc input, connect each one across
half the pack, 11 x 12v = 132vdc each. Adjust their output voltages to
be the same. Parallel them, with a diode in series with each output to
the 12v accessory battery's positive terminal. The diodes will help
equalize the load, and prevent the 12v battery from discharging back
into the DC/DC if one of them turns off.
To keep the pack balanced in case one DC/DC fails, use a 2-pole circuit
breaker, so it turns BOTH of them on/off together. This won't be a
redundant system; it functions like having a single DC/DC, so you still
need the 12v accessory battery for backup.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sound to me like you are not too much off. My 93 Civic gets, by the
emeter, an average over the last 37,000 miles of about 232 wh per mile.
This can vary greatly as a result of weather, traffic, number of
stoplight I have to stop at, etc. I have battery heaters and cooling
fans in my battery boxes to keep the batteries at 80-90F. My watt hours
per mile vary from best ever for the 43.1 mile run, 185 an a beautiful
summer day with no traffic, to stop and go traffic in the winter with
the heat on at 334 wh per mile (on a 30 mile run).
Things that help:
Drive like you have an egg between your foot and the acclerator pedel.
Keep your speed at, not over the speed limit. Energy needed at 55 is
much less that 65, of course if you only have a 10-15 miles to go, it's
fun to get the speed up.
Keep your batteries warm. If you do not have battery heaters, put your
charger on a timmer to have the charge just finish right before you are
ready to travel. This heats the batteries a little and provides longer
time at higher voltage. I use this method in the spring and fall and it
heats the pack nicely. I insulate my pack for the winter which helps
retain heat.
Increase your tire pressure to the max. I have my at 44 PSI, the max
rating for my tires (ok, some times a few pounds extra but I see little
difference).
Replace your transmission fluid with Mobile one. Saw an immediate 3%
change in effencicy.
Make maximum use of kinetic energy.
Try these things and please let the list know how you progress.
Lynn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 7:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Honda EV using too many amps?
Hi Mike,
1) 290 wh per mile is actually pretty good!
2) Lynn Adams (CO) has the other Civvy, not Lee Hart
(MN, I think). (;-p
3) I have confirmed 35 miles (partial charge, and
Lynn is the expert at getting a confirmed 44 miles. If
I recall, he is around 45-55 mph on his commute, not
65, though...
4) Remember, we're carrying 1270 pounds of lead,
though. (144V) More lead = more range.
5) Get on the EV Album!
6) Weights:
DX with air conditioning is 2220 lbs. Subtract 375
for engine block and the rest of unused parts. New
weight for my rig, w/o me, is 3300. This is actual,
not calculated.
Delighted to see you corresponding on the list! Most
times you'll find you can flag all, and delete the
batch, but on one of them, you'll want to uncheck so
that you can read a pearl of wisdom from one who has
"been there, done that".
Hope this helps. Say a prayer for dropping NiMH
prices, and LiPB prices, if range is critical. Best
to you, fellow EVCivvy pilot!
I run about 150 to 170 amps at 55 mph
> on the flat. Car was weighed before I bought it and
> I believe that figure is about 3100 lbs. I am using
> a Zivan NG 3 charger. I've checked the specific
> gravity of the batteries, all looks excellent.
> resting voltage 102.5 volts hours after charge. My
> range is about 25 miles max. around the 20 mile
> mark I have to watch for voltage sagging below 80
> volts. Do I have a problem with internal battery
> resistance or drive train dr!
> ag? How
> can I check these things? I tried Uve's calculator
> using the 88 civic dx vehicle, it says I should get
> like 60 or 70 miles range I must be doing something
> wrong there. Lee Hart's and Bob Bath's civics do 45+
> miles at 144 volts. I would be estatic with even 30
> or 40. Anybody have any ideas?
>
> Mike Malmberg
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search presents - Jib Jab's 'Second Term'
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 8:06 PM
Subject: 12V battery stuff - capacitors
> Hi yall,
>
> Thanks John for yet another great post. I'm very glad I went with the
> twin 55 amp IOTA power supplies. The only thing I'm not sure I'm happy
> with is that two relays (the P&B ~15A ones) separate the power supplies
> from the traction pack when the vehicle is off. I did this because I
> was under the impression from reading the PFC charger manual that there
> shouldn't be any draw from the traction pack while charging. Is this
> correct Rich?
NOT true at all!!
I have been using Goldie as the drive for the Dyno the last couple of weeks.
I have the PFC30 supplied from a Iso transformer, and the Raptor 1200 drives
the motor on the Dyno, NOT the drive motor in Goldie.. and I have the
charger on all the time while I am sucking a few Hundred motor amps at will
from the Pack. The charge keeps up, when I am doing signal conditioning
designs between pulls.
So... don't worry about small loads or even monster loads while the charger
is on. The charger will fingure it out, and keep on stuffing what it can
into the pack.
>
> Because of this, my 12V battery has been found dead a few times. And
> since those relays I mentioned are fired into action from the 12V
> system, if the 12V system is down, the relays don't go. It's a nasty
> cycle...overcome with a little bypass wire that just has to be touched
> from the 144V fuse block to the power supplies. I think my 12V battery
> is a piece of junk. I got the cheap one from Autozone thinking I didn't
> need a good one. Boy, was that stupid!
Leave the DC/DC on all the time, I do.
>
> One other thing - when I pull 1000 amps from my Orbitals on a EV
> grinning stoplight takeoff, and the pack dips down in the 80V range, the
> 12V output drops (which makes sense since the power supplies are only
> being fed with 80V instead of 144V - I'm guessing they just turn off).
> So here's what I'm wondering - could I find some bulky capacitors to
> help out either with the 144V side, or the 12V side? I'm guessing I'll
> have better luck with 12V caps. Can someone recommend a specific part
> that will help keep the 12V system from dimming during those
> accelerations? Maybe a better battery would solve the problem? Whatever
> the case, it will have to be a fairly inexpensive solution as the EV
> funds have dried up :)
Just get a better battery!!.
Hold up caps can help for the few seconds, but after about 5 seconds.. a
battery is better and cheaper.
>
> I imagine some fat caps on the 144V side would help make a faster speed
> run since the voltage wouldn't drop as fast. That will have to be a
> later modification.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
You will need a diode to keep the caps on the 144 volt side from...trying to
hold up the entire pack, instead of just the DC/DCs
> --
> - EV Source -
> Zillas, PFC Chargers, and other EV stuff at great prices
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is very hand-wavey, but forging ahead fearlessly... During the
gas crisis of the 70's some folks in the VW crowd claimed a bug would
get really good highway gas mileage if you put a really heavy
flywheel in it. The insight electric motor putting in pulses between
the gas cylinder pulses would effectively make the motor act like one
with a heavy flywheel. Perhaps not having to torsionally accelerate
and deaccelerate the motor helps it run more efficiently.
My prediction is this trick eventually hits the hotrod crowd. You
could have a "heavy" flywheel at low rpm for smooth idle, and a
"light" flywheel for good acceleration at high rpm. When I was
shopping for a light flywheel for my conversion, I was repeatedly
warned (before they knew it was going to be electric) I would hate
driving the car with a light flywheel, it would stall all the time.
No worries in an electric, though :) .
--- Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> Finally, is there a paper that talks about using the electric motor
> to
> smooth out the 3 cylinder insight? I can't see Honda doing it AND
> getting the mileage at the same time.
> ...
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two points Rod and Bill.
I am NOT the one who wants the classes to change.
I did not start this, and had just Logged my ideas.
Encourage Roy and the Clouds to come up with a class structure and guide
lines, as best they can.
NHRA may not care one way or the other, and posting our battery voltage on
the EV may be all that NHRA needs to see. This is good for me and racing
brackets or time trials.
No complaints here. The work you guys did to get this all put together is
still impressive.
BUT... not much has changed in 5 to 8 years.
Alot of the excitement has gone away
.. and I venture to say that we have fewer racers now as we did then when it
was a challenge.
So when somebody says let change all the rules, I say Whoa!! lets talk this
over... and see what develops.
A side note:
Running Wattage limits, will Kill those that want it!!
If we lock down the wattage that is available to the a EV then most of the
gains will have to be in Motor and chassis mods. The same guys that won't
spend a dime to improve thier stock motors, will now be forced to find gains
where they won't at the present time. This could be very amusing.... to say
the least.
I can see where the Clouds( Dave and Steve) want the wattage limits.
Steve is into Electrathons, and Dave has more than a few range Racing
awards. Given these guide lines.... The Clouds are as competitive as Dennis
Berube is in all out Ev dragster motors.
I have a real problem in changing rules to favor any one racer, and his
skill sets.
Chip and others... when the 240 and up class was introduced there were about
3 racers up that high. I can clearly see a 240 to 360 and now a 360 and up
class. Since we don't have anyone runing above 360 right now... This
effectivley creates a OPEN voltage class. I would strongly suggest that
anyone running in the 360+ class have all thier Safety equipment papers in
order! Because we should do a senior Nedra Tech inspection on them before
the NHRA guys are even called over to look. AKA we should police our own
before NHRA track guy gets involved.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
> Rich Rudman wrote: "Improvements should be made and discussed. Not just
> swept away. The issues will come back and if you don't take them into
> account, they are a serious force that could break NEDRA into ever
smaller
> less effective racing groups."
>
> Rich please clarify this. What issues are you talking about here and what
is
> your recommendation for resolving them? Are talking about going to a
wattage
> based class structure. I believe Bill did a very good job of explaining
why
> that wouldn't work. Keep in mind that we race on NHRA tracks using NHRA
> inspectors. In fact now you can go out and bracket race any weekend you
> wish, when the track is open. This option is now available to you due to
the
> hard work of the NEDRA board in getting electrics into NHRA racing. If you
> have other issues that should be discussed, please don't just say that you
> don't like the way it is set up now but spend the time and effort to offer
a
> viable solution. I'm sure the entire board would be open to discussing the
> options.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> NEDRA President
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 9:45 PM
> Subject: Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 11:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Rich Rudman was whining recently that his front wheel drive car was at
a
> >> disadvantage to the rear wheel drive cars. Yes, it is true that, on the
> >> drag strip, powerful front wheel drive cars do not get the traction
that
> >> rear wheel drive cars easily archive. This is exactly why I stopped
drag
> >> racing my Wabbit and built a completely different vehicle (the
> > KillaCycle.)
> >> I realized that I was "pushing on a rope" and built a rear wheel drive
> >> vehicle. Rich needs to switch over to a rear wheel drive car if he
wants
> > to
> >> be more competitive. Plenty of rear wheel drive gliders to be had for
not
> >> much money.
> >>
> >>
> >> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> >> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> =(___)=
> >> U
> >> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
> >>
> >
> > Or is this the tech inspector whining because I have kicked your but
with
> > Goldie everytime The Wabbit showed up at the track????
> > Oh no this couldn't be...
> > Or the fact the Robert Salem will clobber either one of our Tin Can
Econo
> > Boxes with a Pick up truck??
> >
> > What about the Fiero in the shop??? Got it converted it... Fear crushing
> > the
> > tranny.....Sigh..... gotta find something I can stuff a narrowed 9
incher
> > into the back of.
> > So I already have a rear driver that did wheel stands..
> >
> > There are sub 10 second Rice Rockets out there Bill. The hard part would
> > be
> > making our front drive boxes DO the 12s and the 11s that they could do
> > with
> > the power we have on tap.
> >
> > And Yea I know there's no way in Heck Goldie can do 11 and 12 right now.
> > Goldie will go as fast as her Tranny will take her, it's that simple. I
> > have
> > one back up tranny , and probably can get many more. It's a good gamble
> > on
> > finding 2 seconds of ET and 20 MPH.
> > I will be tickled with either.
> >
> > Lets make it clear I am not Whining for a new class, just pointing out
> > there
> > are some real inequalities in the current class structure.
> >
> > You Bill are the tech Guy... Improvements should be made and discussed.
> > Not
> > just swept away. The issues will come back and if you don't take them
into
> > account, they are a serious force that could break NEDRA into ever
> > smaller
> > less effective racing groups.
> >
> > I seriously suggest you let the "Power class" guys try thier best to
make
> > a
> > fair set of class Rules. If they fail, OK we told them so... if they
> > succede, Great! we let them grow and prosper.
> > Since any class is really made up of those that want to play by some
> > agreed
> > upon rules. Let 'em try. Hold thier hands, take notes, and see what
> > happens.
> >
> > Just saying "it won't work", makes you Bill, a sitting Duck, and you
don't
> > need that right now.
> > Lead Damit!!!
> > Or follow or get out of my way.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
>
--- End Message ---
