EV Digest 4119
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction and hydraulics
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Honda EV using too many amps?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 12V System Battery Info
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Honda EV using too many amps?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Portable Drag Racing Setup
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: "on light"
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Honda EV using too many amps?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Portable Drag Racing Setup
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 12V battery stuff - capacitors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
by "bholmber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fuel cell debunking info
by Steve Downing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Fuel cell debunking info
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> How stout are air
> conditioner clutches like one lister was talking about? Strong enough to
> stand up to the weight of a small pick-up?
Auto AC units draw something like 1 or 2 hp, so I wouldn't bet on the
clutch being able to handle much more than that.
Rouchly speaking, braking a vehicle at a given deceleration rate requires
approximately the same HP as accelerating it at a similar rate.
So if zero-60 in a moderate 30 seconds or so takes (SWAG) 50 hp, then
braking from 60 to zero in 30 seconds also requires 50 hp worth of
friction or regen.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> BTW, Solectria specs its alignments at 0 tow in. I am not sure how well
> that would work on a Civic. I had mine aligned to factory specs, but I
> asked them to go as near 0 tow as the acceptable range allowed.
>
Just want to add a litlle warning about toe in. (To some this is pretty obvious
and you should
just delete it.)
<rant>
In the "Old Days", when roads were a little less smooth, alignments were set up
to compensate for
the road crown as well as the slop in the parts. Where I learned to drive, if
you took your hand
off the wheel for a second, on any road, you'd end up in the ditch in no time.
Nowadays I doubt
anyone uses road crown correction, but there is still a need for toe in. As you
drive down the
road the front wheels are pulled back a little from their resting position. Toe
in helps
compensate for this by making your car a little pidgeon toed. If you set the
car up so the front
end has zero toe in on the stand, they will splay outwards as you are driving.
And the splaying
means scuffing and that's a drag. The manufacturers specs should handle this
pretty well. Not
perfectly, but pretty well. One of the best indicators of a toe in problem is
tire wear. Check to
see if you tires are wearing evenly. You should be able to run your hand across
the top of the
tire, inline with the axis of rotation, and not feel any difference. A sharp
edge on one side of
the tread blocks indicates a toe in problem. Tires wearing just on the inside
edge or the outside
edge may also indicate a toe in problem. Tires wearing just on the middle of
the tread pattern
indicates overinflation. Tires wearing on both the outside and inside edges
indicate
underinflation. Scallops are from a balance problem.
Don't forget that any change in ride height due to extra weight (lead) will
affect this also. Too
low or too high a ride height can cause tire wear by throwing off the camber
adjustment. Make sure
you aren't defeating the purpose of alignment by putting in more drag instead
of removing it.
</rant>
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA for futue 800V+?
As most of the stuff labeled backwards, including wire size :-)
Why not simply say 300V+ class? Then there is no need to memorize
how many "A" belong to what voltage range...
Nah. Won't happen.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No problem Chip. Just use 'AA' for 300V+, 'AAA' for 360V+, etc. Kinda like
wire sizes...........
Darin Gilbert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
If you have two DC/DCs with a true 132vdc input, connect each one across
half the pack, 11 x 12v = 132vdc each. Adjust their output voltages to
be the same. Parallel them, with a diode in series with each output to
the 12v accessory battery's positive terminal. The diodes will help
equalize the load, and prevent the 12v battery from discharging back
into the DC/DC if one of them turns off.
And use Shottky ones; else each diode will get really hot
dissipating, say at 30A about 0.8*30=24W of power.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> As you drive down the road the front wheels are pulled
> back a little from their resting position. Toe in helps
> compensate for this by making your car a little pidgeon toed.
Note that this is true only for RWD vehicles.
A FWD vehicle's front wheels pull forward and so will tend to toe-in
under power as the slop/play in the steering linkage, etc. is taken up.
When you back off the throttle on a FWD, the toe-in decreases and can
result in handling issues (just one reason why you want to stay on the
throttle when taking a corner in a FWD).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need some info showing fuel cell vehicles to be half as efficient as
electrics, from what I remember reading. If you have any links you can
respond to me off list.
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd like those as well, I just had that conversation
with someone yesterday and found that I need more ammo
in that conversation.
Gadget
--- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I need some info showing fuel cell vehicles to be
> half as efficient as
> electrics, from what I remember reading. If you have
> any links you can
> respond to me off list.
>
> Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
> Your Online EV Superstore
> www.evparts.com
> 1-360-385-7082
> Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
> PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
> 108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release
> Date: 2/22/2005
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about classes based on the weight of the motor and controller? Do
anything you want for a motor and controller and their cooling systems are
less than 100 lbs, 200 lbs, 300 lbs, etc.
At 12:17 PM 2/23/2005, you wrote:
And AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA for futue 800V+?
As most of the stuff labeled backwards, including wire size :-)
Why not simply say 300V+ class? Then there is no need to memorize
how many "A" belong to what voltage range...
Nah. Won't happen.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
No problem Chip. Just use 'AA' for 300V+, 'AAA' for 360V+, etc. Kinda
like wire sizes...........
Darin Gilbert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
Two points Rod and Bill.
I am NOT the one who wants the classes to change.
I did not start this, and had just Logged my ideas.
Encourage Roy and the Clouds to come up with a class structure and guide
lines, as best they can.
I personally am not proposing major changes to anything.
I am afraid my little dig at Roderick concerning NEDRA classes has gotcha
all going on this.
Bill Dube' has made some very good points as to why things are done the way
that they are.
I suspect that anything has room for improvement, including racing
classifications.
I am certainly not on any type of personal jihad to change things. :^D
Nuf said.
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This EVent-
http://users.applecapital.net/~jim/solardragrace.htm
Is now being sanctioned by Electrathon America.
BillDube wrote:
At 02:49 PM 2/20/2005, you wrote:
>>EVTC disbanded many years ago. They would have sold off their assets. My
>>question is, why they don't just go to a local strip.
>>
>>Roderick Wilde
>>"Suck Amps EV Racing"
>>www.suckamps.com
>
>Some possible reasons why they wouldn't go to a
>dragstrip-
>
>They already have a facility available for free.
"Free" often does not mean "less expensive."
The insurance, timing lights, ambulance crew, fire crew, PA
system, over-run sand pit, bathroom facilities, etc. all cost money and
take time and effort to set up. What about the training of the tech
inspection crew? Do you have legally-tested liability waivers prepared for
the competitors? Are the competitors and track crew covered? Does the track
have guard rails to separate the cars from the spectators?
Make arrangements to be part of a test and tune or other event at
an existing track. Rent the track for an afternoon if you can't fit into an
existing event.
You will find that insurance is the most difficult aspect. If you
hold the event at an existing track, insurance is not a problem. Otherwise,
it is impossible.
>Use of a dragstrip would likely be cost prohibitive
>and track management would likely see this new
>area of competition as unknown, untested, and a
>possible liability.
This is because of insurance concerns. The insurance company will
not even talk to you without a certified facility, a sanctioning body, and
safety rules. This is why we formed NEDRA, so we could race.
>And... The most important part for the
>sun-driven racers, the east-west orientation
>of the track.
At noon, it won't matter much. :-)
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
> Jeff Schanab wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> >What do you guys do to remind yourself your car is "on"
>
> On my Civic I changed the red filter behind the battery
> warning indicator
> to green and used that. My Force has no power on light, and
> I think that
> is an oversight. I may have to add one.
Hi Mike,
I wired my voltmeter to the controller side of the + and - contactors. That
way it only comes up off the peg when the car is live.
I wonder if that's too subtle, though. Maybe an "On" light is necessary for
non-EVers who naturally think silence means "engine off".
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, your right. I was thinking rear wheel drive because of my project.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd like those as well, I just had that conversation
with someone yesterday and found that I need more ammo
in that conversation.
Somewhere I have a great paper on this subject from a place that
sounds something like the institute for life cycle analysis, I know
it's somewhere in the 50 gigs on my computer, but I'm not finding it.
:-/
In the meantime, there are a lot of links at the end of this paper:
http://www.evworld.com/library/carbdetour.pdf
hth,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone figured an estimated ET and terminal speed for a solar car that
would fit in within the size specs. It's just my cuiosity acting up again.
They say there is a cure.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Using the Electrathon America sanctioning is a great idea as they have event
insurance for only $380.00 which is a very reasonable price.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: Portable Drag Racing Setup
This EVent-
http://users.applecapital.net/~jim/solardragrace.htm
Is now being sanctioned by Electrathon America.
BillDube wrote:
At 02:49 PM 2/20/2005, you wrote:
>>EVTC disbanded many years ago. They would have sold off their assets.
>>My question is, why they don't just go to a local strip.
>>
>>Roderick Wilde
>>"Suck Amps EV Racing"
>>www.suckamps.com
>
>Some possible reasons why they wouldn't go to a
>dragstrip-
>
>They already have a facility available for free.
"Free" often does not mean "less expensive."
The insurance, timing lights, ambulance crew, fire crew, PA
system, over-run sand pit, bathroom facilities, etc. all cost money and
take time and effort to set up. What about the training of the tech
inspection crew? Do you have legally-tested liability waivers prepared
for the competitors? Are the competitors and track crew covered? Does the
track have guard rails to separate the cars from the spectators?
Make arrangements to be part of a test and tune or other event
at an existing track. Rent the track for an afternoon if you can't fit
into an existing event.
You will find that insurance is the most difficult aspect. If
you hold the event at an existing track, insurance is not a problem.
Otherwise, it is impossible.
>Use of a dragstrip would likely be cost prohibitive
>and track management would likely see this new
>area of competition as unknown, untested, and a
>possible liability.
This is because of insurance concerns. The insurance company
will not even talk to you without a certified facility, a sanctioning
body, and safety rules. This is why we formed NEDRA, so we could race.
>And... The most important part for the
>sun-driven racers, the east-west orientation
>of the track.
At noon, it won't matter much. :-)
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found this link but it's pretty technical:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/35948.pdf .
Steve
www.ghiamonster.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Otmar
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
>I'd like those as well, I just had that conversation
>with someone yesterday and found that I need more ammo
>in that conversation.
Somewhere I have a great paper on this subject from a place that
sounds something like the institute for life cycle analysis, I know
it's somewhere in the 50 gigs on my computer, but I'm not finding it.
:-/
In the meantime, there are a lot of links at the end of this paper:
http://www.evworld.com/library/carbdetour.pdf
hth,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to and is
intended for the use of only the individual(s) to whom it is addressed. If the
reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby advised
that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly
prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately
delete.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
>> twin 55 amp IOTA power supplies... two relays separate the power
>> supplies from the traction pack when the vehicle is off. I did
>> this because I was under the impression from reading the PFC
>> charger manual that there shouldn't be any draw from the traction
>> pack while charging. Is this correct Rich?
Rich Rudman wrote:
> NOT true at all!!
It's not that simple, Ryan (and Rich).
Most charging algorithms are based on knowing the battery voltage and
*current* during charge. If you leave some load on the battery while you
are charging, it can fool the charger into improperly charging the
battery.
If the load is trivial, then it won't matter. But if the load is a
significant fraction of the end-of-charge current, then you could have
trouble. A charger that looks for some particular end-of-charge current,
or that applies a constant-current and waits for the voltage to rise to
some set level will not see these levels until much later. The battery
thus gets overcharged. If the load is too large, the charger may NEVER
shut off!
Conversely, if the charger just charges for some fixed time, it will
turn off too early. The battery would not get fully charged.
Because of this, most chargers tell you to turn off all loads across the
battery while charging. Obviously some tiny load is Ok, but not anything
approaching the lowest current that the charger will supply.
Now, I think the PFC chargers have a pretty crude charging algorithm.
Rich, isn't it just constant current to X volts, then constant voltage
for Y hours, then off? If this is the case, the bigger the load from the
DC/DC, the more the PFC would undercharge the battery.
If the PFC charger has per-battery regulators, I don't know what the
final charge algorithm turns out to be. Rich, have you actually measured
the true battery voltage and current versus time, and total amphours put
in for a charge cycle? Try it with no load, and then with a small load
across the battery. I guarantee you will get different results!
> Leave the DC/DC on all the time, I do.
This is easy. But it usually results in your accessory battery being
mostly shot after a couple years. It "works", but will have lost most of
its amphour capacity and will have a much higher internal resistance due
to chronic overcharging.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I should've elaborated on my last email. Since it seems most plans to
produce hydrogen involve using electrolysis, a measure of the
efficiency, or lack thereof, of the process of electrolysis should be
indicative of the maximum efficiencies fuel cells could ultimately
achieve.
Steve
www.ghiamonster.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Marks
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
I found this link but it's pretty technical:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/pdfs/35948.pdf .
Steve
www.ghiamonster.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Otmar
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
>I'd like those as well, I just had that conversation
>with someone yesterday and found that I need more ammo
>in that conversation.
Somewhere I have a great paper on this subject from a place that
sounds something like the institute for life cycle analysis, I know
it's somewhere in the 50 gigs on my computer, but I'm not finding it.
:-/
In the meantime, there are a lot of links at the end of this paper:
http://www.evworld.com/library/carbdetour.pdf
hth,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
The information contained in this email message is being transmitted to
and is intended for the use of only the individual(s) to whom it is
addressed. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient,
you are hereby advised that any dissemination, distribution or copying
of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
message in error, please immediately delete.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The organizers website has a calculation page that estimates 1/4km times of
18 seconds with terminal speeds of 55mph. I'm not sure their calcs are
correct. My time didn't match theirs with the same equations and
assumptions. I got 14.5s and 55mph. I guess that isn't too bad for a solar
car, assuming this model is remotely correct.
http://users.applecapital.net/~jim/solardragrace.htm
Brett
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
Has anyone figured an estimated ET and terminal speed for a solar car that
would fit in within the size specs. It's just my cuiosity acting up again.
They say there is a cure.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Has anyone figured an estimated ET and terminal speed for a solar car that
would fit in within the size specs. It's just my cuiosity acting up again.
They say there is a cure.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
I doubt there is a cure for whatever it is you got Rod, I think it is a
permanent condition :^D
Seriously, we don't yet know what kind of weight will be pushed, but we can
guesstimate the wattage available depending on the PV array used.
PV comes in a wide variety of forms with various mounting schemes, some
weigh alot more than others.
If you used 12 of these multicrystalline panels-
http://store.solar-electric.com/bpso125wasop.html
That would 1500 rated watts.
You could use lightweight flexible amorphous panels and save some weight-
http://www.uni-solar.com/cons_products.html
These are less efficient in direct sunlight than crystalline panels.
If you used 21 of the Uni-Solar FLX-32 panels (looks like would fit) that
would be 672 rated watts.
There is also amorphous PV that is extremely thin and lightweight, attached
to like a metallized mylar type of plastic, this stuff is very light.
It will be interesting to see what folks come up with :^D
Roy LeMeur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.cloudelectric.com
http://www.dcelectricsupply.com
Cloud Electric Vehicles
19428 66th Ave So, Q-101
Kent, Washington 98032
phone: 425-251-6380
fax: 425-251-6381
Toll Free: 800-648-7716
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Warning The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears - Popular
Science
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/article/0,20967,927469,00.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------
For more stories, visit Popsci.com (http://www.popsci.com)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's a running hydrogen car:
http://www.unitednuclear.com/h2.htm
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 11:36:44 +1300, Steve Downing
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> >Warning The Hydrogen Economy May Be More Distant Than It Appears - Popular
> >Science
> >
> >http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/article/0,20967,927469,00.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, I figured you guys really knew your sh-- so to speak.
Well, here's a lot of articles/studies/other crap I
referenced that you might want to look at snipped from a
little something I am writing(It's about EVs in general,
this from a section on fuel cells I wrote under a category
of EV myths. Some of the info needs to be corrected due to
being outdated, as this little document I am writing is over
a year old and 70 pages and chances are has flaws in it due
to either being outdated or to author not being an
'expert'):
The problems that many critics claim battery electric cars
have are not only now absent from BEVs using the latest
technology, but present in FCVs, and in fact multiplied with
fuel cell vehicles. Fuel cell vehicles are hard pressed to
attain adequate range. The maximum cruising range is
generally up to 100 miles, while cycle ranges are usually 45
miles, per tank of hydrogen [57]. This can be doubled, if
higher storage pressures are used, but compressing it
further consumes precious energy. In fact, for a hydrogen
fuel cell vehicle to have a 150 mile range, the hydrogen
within them would have to be compressed perhaps as much as
10,000 PSI [139]. Battery electric vehicles, as previously
noted, can attain ranges exceeding 200 miles per charge with
far less effort using recent technology. A hydrogen
infrastructure could cost upwards of $1 trillion [58] nor
does any significant portion of a hydrogen infrastructure
yet exist. BEVs can be plugged into any standard 110 to 220
volt outlet and those can be found in any location in an
urban environment [38]. Fuel Cell cars cost hundreds of
thousands of dollars to manufacture. The GM Hy-Wire cost $10
million to make and has a maximum cruising range of 100
miles [59]. Today, if FCVs were to be put into mass
production, they�d cost 5 or 6 times more than a
conventional car [87]. A study compared the Solectria
Sunrise battery electric vehicle and Honda�s FCX fuel cell
vehicle in price, and after 10 years if mass produced, Honda
claimed the FCX could potentially cost only $100,000, while
the hand-made Solectria Sunrise in prototype quantities not
only had similar performance and range, but in prototype
quantities cost $100,000 today, not ten or more years from
now and without mass production. In prototype form, the FCX
cost about $1 million today [99]. Likewise, some companies
like AC Propulsion are theoretically capable of making and
selling BEVs at somewhat cost competitive levels with ICE
cars, even with low production volumes(Although these cars
will be for more expensive markets such as high performance
vehicles). Comparing overall energy efficiency, one study by
the ILEA concluded that a battery electric car would be
twice as efficient as a fuel cell car in energy
transmission, more efficient than a fuel cell car in energy
storage using advanced batteries by a factor of 1.6, and
overall that BEVs could offer twice the work for the same
energy as an FCV [91]. Fuel Cell Vehicles also have problems
of their own Battery Electric Cars do not have. Their
membranes are made of platinum, thus a substitute will need
to be found to bring prices down [60]. Not only that, but
their membranes cannot last anywhere near as long as either
an internal combustion engine or a battery pack, failing
within their first 2,000 hours of operation [88]. Fuel Cells
on a per kilowatt basis are not cost competitive with
internal combustion vehicles to date, costing $1,000 to
$3000 per installed kilowatt versus $30 per installed
kilowatt for an internal combustion engine [60]. Not only
that, it currently costs $5.00 per kilogram of gaseous
hydrogen [63], or about 33 kWh worth [64], while a gallon of
gasoline, containing the same amount of energy [64], is
about $1.90 in the United States. The main problem with
hydrogen fuel cells, however, is that they will not make
American consumers independent from oil use in their
automobiles unless a drastic change in hydrogen production
occurs. The majority of hydrogen produced comes from crude
oil as of today [65]. Unfortunately, gaining hydrogen from
water is a much more inefficientand costly process,
requiring far more electricity than a BEV would need, even
though a much more attractive option than crude if renewable
energy sources generate the electricity to create the
hydrogen, but why all that waste? Why not just put it
straight into a battery?
Sources:
[38]
http://www.acpropulsion.com/Infrastructure/Electric_Vehicle_Infrastr.htm
--�...with the ability to charge with 115VAC, virtually
every home, business, and parking structure becomes a
potential charging location. So instead of people bitching
about the number of EV filling stations compared to ICE
filling stations, There is 1000's of times more EV refueling
stations. A simple point and - no matter how slow the
charge, it is a safety blanket. "
[57] http://www.acpropulsion.com/PDF files/ANB ZEV comments
4.pdf ��Finally, the California Fuel Cell Partnership
2001 highlights showed 754 hydrogen refueling events for the
34,000 miles covered by the fuel cell vehicle fleet, or
about 45 miles on average between refuelings. When
automakers quote range in their press releases, we don�t
know what the test cycle is. But it seems to be of the �up
to so many miles� king of figure. I�ve asked engineers
that work on fuel cells what the range is, and at first I
get a stock answer � something like �100 miles�. Then
I ask is this the urban cycle range? �well, no.�.
�What is the urban cycle range?� �Lower.� �A lot
lower?� �Yes.� �
[58] http://www.sentech.org/fuel cell
report/DetailedSummary-Infrastructure.PDF �Page 6 �
�High risk, long term capital investments are needed with
no assurance of payback- �replacement� cost of
infrastructure $1trillion.�
[59] http://www.acpropulsion.com/PDF files/ANB ZEV comments
4.pdf �Page 9 � �Finally, here is the GM Hy-Wire, the
most expensive car GM has ever built at $10 million. This 4
door weighs in at 4180 pounds- about as much as a 7
passenger minivan. Those three hydrogen tanks in the
11-inch-thick skateboard chassis hold 2 kg of hydrogen. The
range is only 60 miles. With higher pressure 10,000 psi
tanks, the range would increase to only 100 miles.�
[60] http://www.eetimes.com/at/hpm/news/OEG20030522S0017
��The key scientific obstacle facing fuel cell
researchers is the fact that automotive fuel cells require
large amounts of precious metals-usually platinum-and these
are costly. "For fuel cells in automobiles, the issue is
cost, cost, cost," said Cairns of UC Berkeley. "And maybe
'cost' a couple of more times." Indeed, researchers say that
fuel cell costs are currently hovering between $1,000 and
$3,000 per kilowatt. To compete with vehicles equipped with
internal combustion engines, those figures need to plummet
to about $30/kW.�
[63] http://www.acpropulsion.com/PDF files/ANB ZEV comments
4.pdf �Page 3 � �Annual fuel cost is estimated
assuming 15,000 miles of travel per year (55% city, 45%
highway) and a fuel cost of $5.05 per kilogram of gaseous
hydrogen.�
[64] http://www.acpropulsion.com/PDF files/ANB ZEV comments
4.pdf �Page 2 - �It turns out that a kilogram of
hydrogen contains very close to the same amount of energy as
a gallon of gasoline � about 33 kWh.�
[65]
http://manila.servlet.net/fuelcellfolly/stories/storyReader$22
��The big question is �where does the so called �non
polluting� hydrogen come from�? It comes from a
polluting process called �reforming� (or �steam
reforming�). In this process a hydrocarbon fuel that
contains hydrogen (coal, oil, natural gas) is �reformed�
creating hydrogen and carbon dioxide (CO2) as well as other
pollutants. The CO2 and pollutants are released into the
atmosphere. The fundamental difference between a fuel cell
car and an internal combustion engine car is that the
hydrogen fuel for the fuel cell car is manufactured in a
factory and the CO2 is released into the atmosphere at the
hydrogen factory. In a conventional car, the CO2 is released
wherever the car is being driven. Fuel cell proponents have
invented the concept of �sequestration� which means that
the CO2 will be buried in the ground at the factory site,
although that has not been done as yet. Like the nuclear
waste to be stored at Yucca flats, the CO2 will hopefully
stay underground for several centuries. 96% of the hydrogen
used today comes from this reforming process, with natural
gas the primary �feedstock� (48%) for the
�reformation�, followed by oil (30%) and coal (18%). The
small remainder (4%) comes from electrolysis, which is a
process of separating water into hydrogen and oxygen using
electricity.�
[87]
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/article/0,20967,927469-2
,00.html ��Simply mass-producing fuel cell cars won�t
necessarily slash costs. According to Patrick Davis, the
former leader of the Department of Energy�s fuel cell
research team, �If you project today�s fuel cell
technologies into high-volume production�about 500,000
vehicles a year�the cost is still up to six times too
high.�
[88]
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/generaltech/article/0,20967,927469-2
,00.html �� Raj Choudhury, operations manager for the
General Motors fuel cell program, claims that GM will have a
commercial fuel cell vehicle ready by 2010. Others are
doubtful. Ballard says that first there needs to be a
�fundamental engineering rethink� of the proton exchange
membrane (PEM) fuel cell, the type being developed for
automobiles, which still cannot compete with the industry
standard for internal combustion engines�a life span of 15
years, or about 170,000 driving miles. Because of membrane
deterioration, today�s PEM fuel cells typically fail
during their first 2,000 hours of operation.�
[91] http://www.ilea.org/downloads/MazzaHammerschlag.pdf �
Page 42��Energy Transmission- Direct electricity is far
more efficient than ReH2. Comparable scenarios show direct
electricity delivering energy with 92% efficiency, while
pipeline scenarios range from 45-63%. Energy Storage- ReH2
is exceeded in efficiency by advanced batteries, compressed
air and pumped water storage by a factor of at least 1.6. In
effect, using ReH2 instead of other storage media would
waste substantial amounts of a clean energy resource. Local
Generation- Production of ReH2 at local vehicle fueling
stations is no more efficient than mass production and
transmission from central plants; if anything economies of
scale will favor central generation. Long-distance
transmission losses of electric and hydrogen transmission
are nearly the same, and losses from on-site electrolysis
and H2 compression swamp those due to transmission. Electric
power demands for a local generating station serving 2,000
cars each day would amount to 57 MW, comparable to the load
of a sprawling institutional campus. Vehicle Technology- EVs
can offer twice the useful work from the same electrical
energy as ReH2-powered FCVs. A fleet of 10,000 FCVs might
consume between 250 and 360 TJ of electricity each year. The
same fleet of battery electric cars would consume 180 TJ.�
[99] http://www.evuk.co.uk/EAVES_BEV_VS_FCV 040703.pdf
�Page 2 ��For example, despite promises of vastly
improved performance and affordability, actual results from
FCVs have not shown considerable improvement over what was
demonstrated by electric vehicles years ago with less modern
batteries. The Honda FCX, recently presented as one of the
first commercially available fuel-cell vehicles, has a peak
power of 80 HP (considerable less pick-up than a Geo Metro
when the vehicle�s weight is considered) and a 220 mile
range under ideal conditions. Honda�s chief engineer for
fuel-cells commented that the vehicle currently costs
approximately $1 million to produce, but they believe they
can reduce the cost of the vehicle to $100,000 in high
production volume after 10 years. Comparatively, Solectria
Corporation in 1997, using battery technology that had less
than � the energy density as what is available today in a
laptop computer, drove 216 miles from Boston to New York,
under normal driving conditions. At the time, Solectria
quoted the cost of the car in prototype quantities to be
$100,000.�
[139]
http://www.visforvoltage.com/main/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=14&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
��H2 must be compressed to 10k PSI to have adequate
>150mile range which reduces efficiency further.�
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--- Begin Message ---
Roderick:
Here are a few.
Hydrogen – the “Do Less with More” Fuel
Alec Brooks
September 16, 2004
A favorite vision for hydrogen powered transportation in the future is
that hydrogen would be produced by electrolysis with renewable energy.
System diagrams often show an electrolyzer next to a graphic of a
windmill or solar array to symbolize that the hydrogen will be ‘green’.
Such an approach is said to provide zero emissions driving with no
greenhouse gas emissions. It is certainly feasible to hook an
electrolyzer up to a solar array or windmill – but the question is
whether this is the best use of the energy. The problem with making
hydrogen with electricity is the large amount of electricity that is
wasted. Fully three quarters of the electricity used to make and
compress hydrogen is lost in the process; the electricity coming out of
the fuel cell to drive a vehicle’s motor is only one quarter of the
energy used to make the hydrogen. This begs the question as to whether
there might be alternate, less wasteful uses of this energy.
In a recent Los Angeles Times article, writer Dan Neal described his
experiences driving a Honda FCX fuel cell vehicle fueled by hydrogen
made at Honda’s solar hydrogen fueling station. He was struck that a
vehicle could be propelled by energy from the sun. He rhapsodized, “I'm
driving pharmaceutical-grade California sunshine: hydrogen generated in
an experimental solar-powered station at Honda R&D America's facility
in Torrance”, and “I’m driving on pure hydrogen, the converted essence
of the sun itself.” He went on to explain that Honda’s large solar
refueling station was designed to generate enough solar energy to
produce hydrogen sufficient to drive the FCX about 10,000 miles a year.
This works out to about a half a kilogram of hydrogen a day, good for
up to 28 miles in the FCX. Honda’s published data for the solar
refueling station shows that it takes about 64 kiloWatt hours (kWh) of
electricity to produce, purify, and compress each kilogram of hydrogen.
So on a daily basis, 32 kWh is consumed to make 1/2 kilogram of
hydrogen. Of that 32 kWh, only about 8kWh is provided by the fuel cell
system to run the vehicle’s drive motor; the other 24kWh is wasted.
Studies comparing hydrogen fuel cell vehicles to other alternatives
often have comparative bar graphs showing well-to-tank efficiency, and
tank-to-wheels efficiency. These do not promote a good understanding of
the real situation. Vehicle drivers know and care about how much energy
(fuel) their vehicle uses, not what the tank-to-wheels efficiency is.
Vehicle fuel economy is an all-inclusive measure of utilization of
energy stored in the vehicle per unit of distance traveled.
Tank-to-wheels efficiency is a related concept, but is not a very
accurate measure of vehicle energy consumption. Vehicles with very
efficient engines can and often do get poor fuel economy.
To illustrate how that 32 kWh consumed every day to make hydrogen could
be used more effectively, consider electrical loads that are familiar
on a daily basis.
First off, we’d like to provide the same 28 miles of transportation
electrically. With a battery electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid vehicle
of the same size as the FCX, it will take about 0.30 kWh/mile for
battery charging, or 8.4 kWh for 28 miles. This leaves 23.6 kWh (about
three quarters) of the energy left over to be used for other purposes.
With an overall energy budget of 23.6 kWh, all of the
following common household loads can be served using energy
efficientappliances:
1. Run ten compact fluorescent light bulbs for 5 hours
2. Provide the daily energy needs of the refrigerator
3. Run the television for 4 hours
4. Run the computer for 4 hours
5. Run the dishes through the dishwasher, including
electrically heating the water
6. Run a load of laundry through the washer, including
electrically heating the water
7. Dry the load of laundry (gas dryer)
8. Heat water for four showers
9. Run a 3-ton (36000 btu/h) central air conditioner for 5
hours
This is a lot of utility and illustrates just how much energy is
squandered in the hydrogen vehicle route. The comparison is simple: Use
32 kWh to (a) run a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle for 28 miles, or (b)
provide energy for all of the functions above PLUS run a battery
electric or plug-in hybrid vehicle for 28 miles.
All forms of energy, renewable and otherwise, result in some form of
environmental impact. Energy should be treated as an increasingly
precious commodity to be used effectively and efficiently. It is hard
to imagine that society would want, or would tolerate, the costs and
environmental impacts of thousands of windmills dotting the landscape
churning away to make hydrogen, knowing that 75% of the energy
generated is thrown away. Better and easier alternatives exist that can
serve the same transportation needs with only one quarter of the
energy, leaving the rest of the renewable energy to serve other
loads. Hydrogen produced with electricity, renewable or not, is a bad
idea. I call hydrogen the “Do less with more” fuel. California needs
electric expressways, not hydrogen highways.
Alex has an excellent paper comparing actual installations in real
cars. He comes up with a 4:1 ratio for energy required by the FCV vs
BEV. So do others. You may want to contact him.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--------------
Comments from people working on fuel cells:
"As far as I know, no one who is technically literate is an
enthusiastic supporter of fuel-cell-powered vehicles," said Donald R.
Sadoway, professor of materials engineering and faculty fellow at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and a nationally recognized
battery expert.
"I doubt I will ever see a hydrogen car for personal consumption in a
showroom. I said this years ago and see no reason to change my mind:
The family-owned, garaged vehicle is the last vehicle that's going to
get a fuel cell. " -- Geoffrey Ballard.
"Hydrogen cars are a poor short-term strategy, and it's not even clear
that they are a good idea in the long term," Alexander Farrell,
assistant professor of energy and resources at the University of
California, Berkeley.
"Even though fuel cells are great devices, you can still do unwise
things with them," Patrick B. Davis, a team leader in the Energy
Department's fuel cell program, told a recent meeting of experts at the
University of South Carolina examining the engineering challenges.
Reuel Shinnar, a professor of chemical engineering at City College of
New York, reviewing the options for power production and fuel
production, concluded in a recent paper, "A hydrogen economy is at
least twice as expensive as any other solution."
"Don't hold your breath on fuel cells. Every 10 years they say
commercial deployment is only 10 years away. We're still not seeing any
real fuel cells that can
run, say, a car," said Robert Lifton, chief executive of Medis
Technologies.
sessment came from Joseph J. Romm, the chief Energy Department official
in charge of conservation and alternative energy in the Clinton
administration. His book "The Hype About Hydrogen" will be published
this spring.
"Fuel-cell cars will not be environmentally desirable for decades,
because there are better uses for the fuels you can make the hydrogen
out of," said Joseph J. Romm chief Energy Department official in charge
of conservation and alternative energy in the Clinton administration.
New York Times, Feb. 6, 2004.
He [Bill Reinert, U.S. manager of Toyota's advanced technologies group]
is less optimistic about fuel cells. Asked when they might replace
gas-powered or gas-and-electric-powered vehicles, he replied wistfully:
"If I told you 'never,' would you be upset?" January 2005.
Hydrogen Hokum
While politicians of both stripes promote the hydrogen-powered "Freedom
Car" as a solution to many of the ills associated with
gasoline-dependent vehicles, serious automotive and aerospace
engineers, acutely aware of stubborn problems involved in its
development, are less optimistic. Bruce a. McHenry, MIT Alumni
Association magazine, March 19, 2004.
Producing the hydrogen equivalent in energy to the oil now used in U.S.
transport would require 10 trillion kilowatt hours of electric energy;
we would have to triple our electric generation capacity. James Jordan
and James R. Powell , Washington Post Sunday, June 6, 2004. James C.
Jordan is a former energy program director for the Navy. James R.
Powell, a former senior scientist at Brookhaven National Laboratory.
On Wednesday, February 23, 2005, at 10:45 AM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
I need some info showing fuel cell vehicles to be half as efficient as
electrics, from what I remember reading. If you have any links you can
respond to me off list.
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
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