EV Digest 4123
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: simple fuse indicator
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Multiple Breakers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) 360 Volt limit?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Running Amps
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: simple fuse indicator
by Catbus Mike <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Industrial charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery Pack Advice
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: BLDC system versus AC induction and hydraulics
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Regenerating a series wound motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) 100 mile trip
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
by Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: PFC charger capabilities -was- 12V battery stuff - capacitors
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Fuel cell debunking info
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) OT: Spam? (was: RE: Fuel Cell debunking info needed)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) max. wet cell temperatures
by "Raymond Knight" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 100 mile trip
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Industrial charger
by "Deuville's Rink" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Changing from sealed beam to H4
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Battery Box Advice Sought
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: 100 mile trip
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> I am personally looking forward to the day when we can have a
> double A class which would be above 360 volts since that is the
> current limit of DC cars. I don't see DC going much above that.
> It's not that efficient up there. The future of electric drag
> racing is in AC so I could logically assume up to and beyond
> 600 volt machines.
Well now, I wouldn't say that...
Motors (AC or DC) are generally more efficient and easier to build if
the voltage and current are about the same; 12v at 12a; 120v at 120a,
etc. Large motors for buses and trains are rated 600v at 600a. Since
power = volts x amps, this is how they get really large amounts of
horsepower without either the voltage or the current getting
unreasonable.
You find a power source that can deliver 600 volt at 600 amps, and the
motor and controller will be *NO* problem, either AC or DC!
Voltage works as a class indicator because it's easy to measure, and all
the batteries people are using have roughly the same current limit;
around 500-1000 amps. If the current is fixed, then voltage is a good
indicator of relative horsepower.
But as soon as someone finds a good power source that happens to deliver
much higher currents (but lower voltages), or much higher voltage at
lower currents, then voltage will no longer work.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I would think that a fun class might be based on what is called in
> horse racing a "claiming" race. In horse racing, there is a type
> of race in which all of the horses are automatically up for sale
> at a "claiming price", typically $2,000. If you enter, you must be
> willing to sell your horse for $2000.
>
> I would think that it would be very interesting to have some sort
> of claiming race for EVs. Perhaps just the battery pack (and/or
> some other components of the drive system) could be "claimed."
> Folks would figure out a cheap way to make an EV go fast, that
> is for sure.
Yes, it could work well to keep down the price of racing... until some
joker comes along that can afford to just "buy" every race. Build a
throwaway one-use car for $4000, win the race, and sell it for $2000.
Even the guy that buys it would have trouble beating him, because it's
shot. For instance, it uses primary batteries, or the motor is destroyed
from arcing or overheating after one race.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> On some old machines, a neon bulb was placed across the fuses.
> When the fuse blew the potential accros it rose and lit the neon
> bulb. A newer machine has a resistor and an LED, the neon would
> draw less current I think.
Yes, this works for any circuit over about 60v (AC or DC). A neon lamp
*plus* a resistor of about 22k-100k. LEDs work too, but need
considerably more current to light; also they are DC only (so you need a
diode as well as a resistor to work in an AC circuit).
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> If, with two parallel strings of batteries, you want the ability
> to turn off either one separately, or both together via a second
> breaker that also functions as an emergency shutoff, would the
> following setup work?
>
> +-------------+ +--------------+ +--------------+
> | Bat. Str. A |O===O| 250A Breaker |O===O| 400A Breaker |O==> 1231C
> +-------------+ +--------------+ |+--------------+
> |
> +-------------+ +--------------+ |
> | Bat. Str. B |O===O| 250A Breaker |O===+
> +-------------+ +--------------+
Sure; that works fine. However, I might put the 400a breaker in the
negative lead, and leave the two 25a breakers in the positive lead. This
way, if I turn off all breakers, the pack is completely disconnected for
servicing, storage, etc.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
>From Jeff Shanab:
> Just curious, why is 360 Volts the present voltage limit for dc
> systems. (I initially typed "current voltage limit" and confused myself
> LOL)
>
>From Rod Wilde:
> >360 volts is the current limit of specially prepared Zillas. No one
> >in EV racing history has built a more powerful DC motor controller
> >than Otmar. www.cafeelectric.com
>
>From Otmar:
> Thanks for the kudos Rod!
> But I must correct you. The limit is 348V nominal, not 360.
>
> Just because Dennis is getting away with it does not mean that it is
> ok to do. Dennis has the the receipts to prove he is a true racer...
> :-)
>
360V limit? What limit? I ran 408V at Woodburn in 2002! Respecting the 348V
limits of the
great Godzilla controller, I had an additional 72V pack (6 more Hawker 16 EP)
that I
tapped into once full PWM had run its course. It was a bypass that went in
series with the
full 336V pack, an interesting experiment that I used as a bandaid applied to
the
aging pack of little Hawkers so that the car could make an OK showing at the
track. White
Zombie had slowed into the mid 14's due to the exhausted, then 5 year old pack
of 28. 13.5
lb. Hawkers, and no new battery sponsorship had come my way. Adding those extra
72 volts
really did the trick, as it pushed the car back into the 13's, with a best ET
of 13.8
seconds...not bad. That bypass was a precursor of things to come, I guess.
See Ya...John '408V' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
John Westlund wrote:
> John Wayland wrote:
>
> >My Datsun 1200, Blue Meanie, currently runs on 156V.
> >At 2340 lbs. With a small
> >profile and
> >weighing just 2340 lbs., and with LRR tires pumped
> >up to 50 psi, it rolls very
> >easily and
> >requires very little power.
>
> Out of curiosity, how is its handling with those tires? Any
> cars on the market today or in the past 10 years that you
> could compare its handling to? It's low center of gravity
> would offset the loss of traction some, I'd think.
To be honest, it handles 'OK'. Keep in mind, you're asking a guy who's owned a
lowered 911
SC Porsche, various Datsun 510's slammed to the ground with Koni shocks, BRE
front and
rear sway bars, racing springs, etc., and other machines that would peel the
skin off your
face when cornering! A Datsun 1200 properly lowered with Nissan Comp suspension
parts and
light alloy wheels with low profile rubber can corner like a roller
skate...this is not
Blue Meanie. Blue Meanie 'does' have chopped Z Car front springs and an extra
leaf added
to the rears, so it certainly doesn't wallow or lean in the curves, but minus
competition
front and rear bars and wider, lower profile rubber, it's just, as I say, 'OK'.
I'd
characterize its handling as responsive and crisp, but no where near a canyon
racer. I've
often thought of doing the mods to really make it handle, but minus the LRR
tires at 50
psi, I'd probably lose a few of those precious miles already in scant supply,
so when it
comes to handling, the car is a compromise....good, but not killer. Let's put
it this
way....if a 500 lb. of pack of high power LiIon batteries found their way into
the car,
where the same 0-60 acceleration was on hand, along with, say 150-200 miles
range, I'd
happily give up 25 miles of that, and do a full blown handling setup!
The closet recent car I compare its handling to, is the Honda Insight, another
feather
light car. The first test drive of an Insight made me smile, as it felt like a
stock
Datsun 1200 to me....light and tossable. The Insight has a quirky darting thing
it does
with its LRR tires and the 4 inch narrower rear track, but other than that,
lowered as
it comes from Honda, an Insight corners fairly flat and has a crisp steering
feel. Blue
Meanie doesn't feel darty at all, so it's comes off more composed than an
Insight.
>
> I wonder how this car would do in range and speed with a
> 240V+ pack and a Zilla 2k... (Unfortunately to properly fit
> such a pack, it probably wouldn't have enough room for the
> audio gear to remain a soundoff car.)
240V would make the car too heavy and it would loose some of its 'light and
tossable' feel
that I love so much. Unlike White Zombie that is tune-less and has light weight
seats and
the stock, spartan 1200 interior panels, this car packs extra weight in the
sound system,
motorized rear battery tray, and custom interior pieces. It's at 2340 lbs.
right now, so
an extra 7 batteries is another 315 lbs., so it would weigh a porkier 2655 lbs.
And yes,
you're correct, parts of the comp. stereo system would have to go to fit in
those 7 extra
batteries. Finally, the extra torque that 2000 amps through the 9 inch ADC
would make,
would probably vaporize either the tranny, the rear end, or both. To make it
live, a
bigger and heavier tranny would be needed, and a beefier rear end, like what's
in White
Zombie, would also be needed...there's another 100 lbs....now we're looking at
a 2755 lb.
car. I like the feel of a light car, and the 2340 lb. Blue Meanie just feels
'right' where
it's at.
>
> It already sounds like fun to drive as it is, rattling
> people's windows with the sound system, embarrassing Detroit
> iron at a stoplight, and scaring old ladies!
Guilty as charged. Immature? Sophomoric? Yes, but it 'is' fun!
> Still planning that 204V Orbital upgrade(Or with Optimas
> instead of Orbitals)? You'd cut your 60 MPH draw to 53-57
> amps and you'd have a performance boost.
Yes, still planning the 204V Orbital powered version. At 5 lbs. less per
battery the 204V
Orbital pack is just 680 lbs. ....95 lbs. more than the 156V pack of Optimas.
I've got
about 40 lbs. of 'stuff' that will be removed in the reconversion project, so
that makes
the car just 55 lbs. heavier. Who knows, maybe I'll find more hidden weight I
can take
out. The 1000 amps from the Z 1K won't quite match the 1200 amps of the DCP
Raptor 1200,
so max torque will go down slightly, from an estimated 300 ft. lbs. to more
like 280 ft.
lbs., but with more voltage on hand, the controller will stay in current limit
longer,
thus widening the torque curve substantially. Along with a wider torque band,
max hp will
definitely take a big jump when the 'sagged voltage' under full current will
rise from the
130V it now sags to with 13 Optimas, to somewhere around 170V @ 1000
amps...that's about
170 hp @ 280 ft. lbs....yeah, I'll take that! That much power, especially when
it's electric
power, is a lot for a 2300+ lb. car. The 35 extra horses under the hood should
give the car
an honest 125 mph top end, and the 3rd gear pull from 50 to 100 mph should be
fantastic.
Range might be as high as 40 miles per charge pushing things, and around 30
miles reliably.
Man, between the Zombie mods currently underway, the 'Hyster from Hell'
project, the drag minitruck
project (with the Father Time-Jim Husted-Wayland modified 13" Allis Chalmers
motor), and
Blue Meanie's stereo system and controller-battery pack upgrade, I'm going to
be a busy
boy in 2005!
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Jeff Shanab wrote:
On some old machines, a neon bulb was placed across the fuses.
When the fuse blew the potential accros it rose and lit the neon
bulb. A newer machine has a resistor and an LED, the neon would
draw less current I think.
Yes, this works for any circuit over about 60v (AC or DC). A neon lamp
*plus* a resistor of about 22k-100k. LEDs work too, but need
considerably more current to light; also they are DC only (so you need a
diode as well as a resistor to work in an AC circuit).
I was about to respond with:
"But LEDs are Light Emmiting _Diodes_, why would you need an additional
diode?"
But I decided to look up LEDs first, and found out why Lee was right.
As you can see by the following link, the repesentative LEDs listed all
have a maximum reverse voltage of 5V.
http://www.kpsec.freeuk.com/components/led.htm#data
Mike Shipway
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Deuville's Rink wrote:
> I am running 13 deep cycle [batteries] and have been charging with
> an industrial charger that offers 12, 24, 36, 48 and 72 volt
> settings. I found that the charger was putting out about 95 volts
> and around 50 Amps and could handle the 13 batteries at the 72 volt
> setting. I added another battery yesterday unsure if the charger
> would be able to handle the higher battery voltage. To my surprise
> the charger voltage increased to 110 volts as the batteries.
>
> Can someone explain why the voltage on the charger increases as
> the batteries get charged and how the 72 volt charger can charge
> a 84 volt pack of batteries?
A 72v string is supposed to be twelve 6v batteries (12 x 6v = 72v).
That's a total of 36 cells. Industrial deep-cycle flooded battery
chargers typically charge to 2.55v per cell, which is 2.55v x 36 cells =
92v for a 72v pack. That's pretty close to the 95v you mentioned.
You actually have thirteen 6v batteries; a 13 x 6v = 78v pack with 39
cells. This "72v" charger which actually goes to 95v would then take
each cell to about 95v / 39cells = 2.44v/cell. This is still an
acceptable end-of-charge voltage It will take longer to reach full
charge and amphour capacity will be slightly less; but the battery will
use less water and last a little longer.
I'm surprised that adding yet another battery (14 x 6v = 84v; 42 cells)
caused the charger to reach 110 volts. That would be 110v / 42cells =
2.62v/cell. The volts/cell cannot *increase* by adding batteries to the
string unless the charger is smart enough to automatically reconfigure
itself for a higher-voltage pack.
In any case, 2.62v/cell is too high. This will overcharge the batteries;
they will get hot, gas too much, use a lot of water, and have shortened
life.
I would check again with a known accurate meter. If this 110v is real,
then the charger is automatically reconfiguring itself, probably for a
96v pack. Or, perhaps your AC line voltage varies a lot, and the charger
is badly regulated and so just passes any increase in line voltage right
through to its output.
> This sure is complicated field.
It only seems that way. Actually batteries are a *lot* less complicated
than ICEs!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard R. Marcus wrote:
> I need to replace a battery pack and would like advice. It is a
> Ford Escort body currently with 6 Trojan 5SHP (72 volts).
That is a *tiny* battery pack for an Escort. You only have 6 x 86 lbs =
516 lbs of batteries in a vehicle weighing perhaps 2500 lbs total. They
would provide pitiful range, performance, and life.
> This is a commuter so I want to maximize range (even at the
> expense of performance). I thought about a dozen T-145s (are
> my calculations right that I would expect about a 50 mile range)?
Assuming you want to stay at 72v to keep the same charger, motor, and
controller, this will require 12 T-145s. This is a 71 lbs battery, so
your pack weight is now 852 lbs. The vehicle weight also increases, but
your percent battery weight has gone up significantly. You could expect
at least double the range with these batteries, though I doubt you could
reach 50 miles without a lot of other work and very slow careful
driving.
> Does someone have a better battery suggestion? A modest
> modification suggestion? Thanks!
If range is important, you need good instrumentation so you can tell how
you're doing. An E-meter is the best single instrument, because it will
tell you how many KWH you used to cover a given distance.
First, you learn to drive so as to minimize power usage. Lower is
better. About the only mistake you can make in this regard is to drive
in too high a gear, forcing the motor to turn too slowly. It gets better
efficiency, but the motor will run too hot and overheat because it's
internal fan isn't working. It's better to do all your driving in 2nd
gear, or 3rd only if you get on the expressway at 50+mph.
Then, you start looking for all the simple things that kill range. Bad
tires, dragging brakes, poor wheel alignment, terminals getting hot,
that sort of thing. As you find 'em and fix 'em, range improves.
The other big factor is the care of your batteries. They are almost like
a living thing. They need exercise or they get lazy; but not too much or
you work them to death. They need to be fed (charged) properly; not too
much, and not too little. They need to be kept at reasonable
temperatures; those that you would find comfortable. Luckily, flooded
lead-acids are pretty tolerant of mild abuse.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Is there a BLDC as powerful as an 8" ADC at 96v?
You can't really talk about the "power" of an electric motor alone; you
need to include the power source and controller.
An 8" ADC motor at 96v *and what current*? Depending on rpm and the
controller used, the current could be anything from 1 amp to 1500 amps.
The horsepower varies accordingly, from 0.1hp to over 100hp.
A BLDC motor can of course match this; but it will require a controller
that is also capable of delivering 100+amps. Since BLDC controllers are
so expensive per HP, you rarely see one that can deliver more than 100a
for more than a few minutes without overheating. It's the controller
that limits the performance; not the motor.
> How stout are air conditioner clutches? Strong enough to stand up
> to the weight of a small pick-up?
I think you mean "torque", not weight. And no; they are probably only
good for about 1/10th the torque of a normal vehicle's clutch.
> Also, at the risk of being off-topic, does anyone know of a source
> for reversible hydraulic motor/pumps like the one used by Permo
> Drive www.permo-drive.com) to make big rigs hydraulic hybrids?
Hydraulic motors and pumps are widely used in industrial, off-road,
mining, and other electric vehicles. They are expensive, but extremely
rugged and versatile. There are dozens of manufacturers. You might start
by getting a Surplus Center catalog (www.surpluscenter.com,
1-800-488-3407). They show the range of hydraulic motors and pumps
available, are a source of cheaper parts for experimenting, and have
some quickie formulas for figuring horsepower vs. pressure and flow
rates. To do it "right", you'll probably have to find a sympathetic
hydraulics expert, and have him guide you.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Sharpe wrote:
> I have a converted Diahatsu Charade that I bought from the CSIRO
> here in Melbourne Australia. It has a 4001A 9" motor and DCP1200
> controller on 144V 99Ahr Panasonic batteries. I would like to get
> engine braking automatically. Can the controller be arranged to
> supply the field only and connect the armature direct to the
> batteries during braking?
This motor and controller aren't designed for "engine" or regenerative
braking. It could be added to them, but it's a lot of trouble and
probably not worth the effort.
A much better method would be to add a separate generator or alternator
for engine braking / regenerative braking. In its simplest form, it is
an ordinary auto alternator belt-driven from the traction motor much
like it would be in a normal car. Use the brake light switch to command
the alternator to full power when you step on the brakes. This will dump
braking energy into the car's 12v accessory battery. This will give you
mild "engine" braking; about like a normal car if you simply take your
foot off the accellerator.
For more aggressive braking, use a larger alternator, chosen or rewound
to charge the main propulsion pack. You'll have to build your own
voltage regulator to control the amount of charging current it produces
-- basically a scaled-up version of the circuit in a normal alternator.
This will produce braking force similar to a normal car when you
downshift it.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I'm new to the world of EV, but have used PV on my 5th wheel
(www.ironandwood.org/graphics/PV_RE.pdf an article in HOME POWER) so I'm primed
for a conversion.
But I have a problem, I need to have a 100 mile range. I am in Tucson AZ,
actually about 25 miles outside in 3 Points. So when I go into town for
shopping, movie, dinner, friends, whatever, I need to have a 100 mile range.
The end (and also every beginning) of my trip is up an incline of about 1% for
5 miles. For most of the drive, 25 miles, into tucson I can travel at 65 mph,
but 55 is fine. I would like the conversion to be a light truck, S-10, Ranger
or Toyota Extrcab so that if need be I can carry some materials and I also
figure that I can put the batteries under the bed, maybe even replace the metal
bed with wood (if weight wise that is possible). Even though it is hot in the
summer I don't need AC, just some heat for defrost and if it is cold.
So far I have come up with the following: truck donner S-10, Ranger, Toyota
Xtracab or similiar with a FB4001 motor, a Zilla controller and a BIG battery
pack, at least 120 V pack (120 v / 6 v =20 bats x 72 lbs = 1440 lbs). I would
use the Zilla to limit the amount of volts that go to the motor so that the
volts don't cook the motor (thanks to Rich for the suggestion). And of course
a PFC50 charger so I can use 120, 240 v outlets and really charge up the pack
fast.
If I go to 156 V, the weight becomes 1872 lbs, 170 V pack is 2040.
How do I figure out what my reserve would be with the various volt packs?
Am I pushing the frame specs by adding so much weight?
>From my PV experience I know that the Trojan L-16H (6 volt, 20 H rate 420 AH ,
>121 lbs, 11 5/8 L x 7 W x 16 3/4 H) is the preferred battery cause it holds so
>many amp hrs with basicly the same footprint, only higher by 6 inches, which
>in a house is no problem. Is the increased weight not worth the increased
>Amps? Again how do I figure how many miles I can get from Amps?
With the L-16H's the 140 V pack is 2904 lbs but 420 AH at 20 H rate. 120 V pack
is 2420 lbs.
All comments are welcome...
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI-
Looking at their web site, there calculations were based on accelerating
100kg ~ 220lb with 1680 watts ~ 820ft
The rules also state that the driver must be weighted to 175lb. 220-175=45
Why don't some of you computer dragracing geeks get your back sides out
of that custom fit chair and out to the shop and build a 45lb vehicle with a
1680watt
array of PV and come to the race.
Father Time
bholmber wrote:
> The organizers website has a calculation page that estimates 1/4km times of
> 18 seconds with terminal speeds of 55mph. I'm not sure their calcs are
> correct. My time didn't match theirs with the same equations and
> assumptions. I got 14.5s and 55mph. I guess that isn't too bad for a solar
> car, assuming this model is remotely correct.
>
> http://users.applecapital.net/~jim/solardragrace.htm
>
> Brett
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
> Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 12:10 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
>
> Has anyone figured an estimated ET and terminal speed for a solar car that
> would fit in within the size specs. It's just my cuiosity acting up again.
> They say there is a cure.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't see how it violates the laws of physics, can you explain how?
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> When I reported at EVS-20 and mentioned in a question session that
> the
> "hydrogen economy" of running vehicles off of H2 goes against the
> laws of
> physics and therefore won't happen, ...
=====
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2005 10:46 PM
Subject: PFC charger capabilities -was- 12V battery stuff - capacitors
> But... I was unsure as to whether this type of use was well within the
> design parameters of your chargers.
>
> So... you are saying that the PFC chargers can be considered to be a
> reliable device for use under dynamic charging/discharging conditions?
>
> Like a homebrew hybrid?
>
>
Correct!
Infact The PFC chargers let you get the full power that your Genset can
provide, Because they are Power factor corrected.
In the old days of a Genset and a rectifier, you would be lucky to get 1/2
the generator's rated power into the pack.
I have done over %95 of rated Kw into the lead.
It's hard to get much better...
I didn't expect the flow through to be as good as I have measured it at.
Nice surprise.
The towed gencart math is a LOT better with a box that can handle all the
charger chores unattended.
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I like the way things are set up right now, they are very clear, easy to
understand, I cannot think of any reason to even consider messing with them.
NEDRA is slowing coming known to the average ICE racer, and eventually the
average racing fan will know of it as well. 99% of mechanics in the world
don't understand what watts are, neither does half of the auto electric
industry. So if you make things confusing for them, then electric vehicles
will be confusing to them, and they will take a quick look and walk away
scratching their head. Go back to their big block versus small block
conversations and forget all about electrics.
When I talk to ICE racers most of them understand that 24volts is bigger
than 12 volts, and 240 volts is a lot bigger than 24 volts. They can
appreciate the differences. Who ever set up NEDRA classes, did it right the
first time. All I can say is if ain't broke, don't fix it. The only thing
that needs to be adjusted is the number of records Brain Hall owns. Knowing
Mr. Halls capabilities, that might harder to do than changing the classes.
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Why assume oil needs to be involved at all? The nature of oil demands
a few, big companies to "mine" and distribute it. The nature of H2 is
that appliances in the home could provide it, or "gas" stations could
make it themselves.
If the hydride tanks lasted a long time, a solar panel or wind mill
powered H2 setup could actually be greener than a battery EV. Yes the
H2 setup needs bigger panels or windmills, but if the hydride tanks
last longer it needs less energy/pollution to build one set of
hydride tanks than several sets of batteries.
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> the efficiency losses well to wheels are staggering with a
> hydrogen ICE setup.
> ...
> But unless you have solar panels or wind generators, you'll
> be buying your fuel from the oilies in the event this ever
> takes off and actually works.
> ...
=====
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> At 5:52 PM -0800 2-23-05, Sherry Boschert wrote:
> >I think this is the study that Otmar referred to:
> >http://www.ilea.org/downloads/MazzaHammerschlag.pdf
> >
> >Sherry Boschert
> >San Francisco Electric Vehicle Association
>
> That's the one! Thanks!
> --
> -Otmar-
Otmar's right, this is a good paper. Good enough that I saved it for future
reference. I've never heard of ILEA before, and don't think I've been to
their site before today.
Oddly enough, a short time after I downloaded the paper I received a spam
email from ILEA describing some of the green options people have for
personal transportation. In this (extremely rare) case I don't really mind
the spam. I'm actually interested in what they have to say.
My question is this - how did they get my email address? It seems too much
of a coincidence that they got it by some other means and just happened to
send the first spam email shortly after I had been to their site. Is it
possible to build a website that collects the email addresses of those who
visit it?
Chris
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50 to 60c is less than the average operating temperature under the hood of
most ICE vehicles. At 125F the battery will actually have 105% of its
capacity measured at 80F. So I would think you will see no negative effect
on the batteries. I would be more concerned about the over heating of your
motors. As their temperature rises, so does their power requirement.
The Honda regulator you are using, is that the one in the vehicles
alternator? If so what is the year, make, and model, or do you have an
actual part number from the vehicle. Most modern alternators already have
temperature compensation in them. If it doesn't I may be able to give to you
a part number for a bolt in replacement for it that does have T/C..
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How many miles can I go???
How big a tank?? how big a engine? how heavy?
What we EVers get it down to is Watthours per mile. Or Miles per Kwhr. Until
we know this we can't guess at your range.
You can calculate the potential stored energy in your pack by multipling
Amphours by pack volts. You get a number for a complete perfect discharge
cycle.
In the real world you will be lucky to get half of this.
So.. 420 amphours times 120 volts is... 50.4 Kwhr full to Crawling(Bad Bad
bad!), or 25.2 Kwhr on tap and a nice few thousand cycle life.
So...25.2Kwhr.
Your EV, how much juice does it take to run?. OK.. Motor, speed ,
driving attitude, alignment...blah blah.... Really good for this weight
would be 500 whrs per mile, Be pleased with 750 until you get the car fully
tuned up. Perfectly aligned high pressure low roll R tires, No brake drag,
THIN tranny oil...etc
Buck up, I have seen some folks get heavy rigs down to 425 watts a mile.
Still this gets you 100 miles in a real pinch and 56 miles that you can live
with.
Adding voltage with a 156v pack will give you more range with a higher
power draw. You can suck them lower and still have some snort. 120 volts is
a bare minimum for running the 9 incher. With a sagging pack at say 90 volts
the motor just won't pull to high rpms to support 60 mph and any grade.
Floodes are going to sag like rocks. So you need to have some extra voltage
overhead.
Keep in mind that a full run will still take hours to refill even with a
charger that can deliver 10Kw from a 12.5 Kw source.
Be warned that Otmar will want you to buy the bigger Z2K for the more
thermal capabilities. Really a Z1K is all you need. Even a 1K will cook you
9 incher in just a few minutes at 500 amps and over.
So..keep in mind that high RPMs and light amp loads will help the motor stay
cool and the controller benifits also.
If you want reliable 100 mile runs, you need to find a couple of hundred
pounds more lead.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:00 AM
Subject: 100 mile trip
> Hi all,
>
> I'm new to the world of EV, but have used PV on my 5th wheel
(www.ironandwood.org/graphics/PV_RE.pdf an article in HOME POWER) so I'm
primed for a conversion.
>
> But I have a problem, I need to have a 100 mile range. I am in Tucson AZ,
actually about 25 miles outside in 3 Points. So when I go into town for
shopping, movie, dinner, friends, whatever, I need to have a 100 mile range.
The end (and also every beginning) of my trip is up an incline of about 1%
for 5 miles. For most of the drive, 25 miles, into tucson I can travel at 65
mph, but 55 is fine. I would like the conversion to be a light truck, S-10,
Ranger or Toyota Extrcab so that if need be I can carry some materials and I
also figure that I can put the batteries under the bed, maybe even replace
the metal bed with wood (if weight wise that is possible). Even though it is
hot in the summer I don't need AC, just some heat for defrost and if it is
cold.
>
> So far I have come up with the following: truck donner S-10, Ranger,
Toyota Xtracab or similiar with a FB4001 motor, a Zilla controller and a BIG
battery pack, at least 120 V pack (120 v / 6 v =20 bats x 72 lbs = 1440
lbs). I would use the Zilla to limit the amount of volts that go to the
motor so that the volts don't cook the motor (thanks to Rich for the
suggestion). And of course a PFC50 charger so I can use 120, 240 v outlets
and really charge up the pack fast.
>
> If I go to 156 V, the weight becomes 1872 lbs, 170 V pack is 2040.
>
> How do I figure out what my reserve would be with the various volt packs?
>
> Am I pushing the frame specs by adding so much weight?
>
> >From my PV experience I know that the Trojan L-16H (6 volt, 20 H rate 420
AH , 121 lbs, 11 5/8 L x 7 W x 16 3/4 H) is the preferred battery cause it
holds so many amp hrs with basicly the same footprint, only higher by 6
inches, which in a house is no problem. Is the increased weight not worth
the increased Amps? Again how do I figure how many miles I can get from
Amps?
>
>
> With the L-16H's the 140 V pack is 2904 lbs but 420 AH at 20 H rate. 120 V
pack is 2420 lbs.
>
> All comments are welcome...
>
> Thanks
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
>
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: Industrial charger
>
> A 72v string is supposed to be twelve 6v batteries (12 x 6v = 72v).
> That's a total of 36 cells. Industrial deep-cycle flooded battery
> chargers typically charge to 2.55v per cell, which is 2.55v x 36 cells =
> 92v for a 72v pack. That's pretty close to the 95v you mentioned.
>
> You actually have thirteen 6v batteries; a 13 x 6v = 78v pack with 39
> cells. This "72v" charger which actually goes to 95v would then take
> each cell to about 95v / 39cells = 2.44v/cell. This is still an
> acceptable end-of-charge voltage It will take longer to reach full
> charge and amphour capacity will be slightly less; but the battery will
> use less water and last a little longer.
>
> I'm surprised that adding yet another battery (14 x 6v = 84v; 42 cells)
> caused the charger to reach 110 volts. That would be 110v / 42cells =
> 2.62v/cell. The volts/cell cannot *increase* by adding batteries to the
> string unless the charger is smart enough to automatically reconfigure
> itself for a higher-voltage pack.
>
> In any case, 2.62v/cell is too high. This will overcharge the batteries;
> they will get hot, gas too much, use a lot of water, and have shortened
> life.
>
> I would check again with a known accurate meter. If this 110v is real,
> then the charger is automatically reconfiguring itself, probably for a
> 96v pack. Or, perhaps your AC line voltage varies a lot, and the charger
> is badly regulated and so just passes any increase in line voltage right
> through to its output.
>
> > This sure is complicated field.
>
> It only seems that way. Actually batteries are a *lot* less complicated
> than ICEs!
> --
> If you would not be forgotten
> When your body's dead and rotten
> Then write of great deeds worth the reading
> Or do the great deeds worth repeating
> -- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
Thanks Lee, I checked my charger voltage with another analog meter and
received the same voltage as my digital meter.....But the voltage was 112
volts after the charger was left on for over an hour which is longer than I
usually use ( the charger has a timer on it and I just use the last hour or
portion) it is an old charger, could it be putting out a peak voltage that
may be throwing the meters off? I believe that it is a pulsating dc with
perhaps quite a ripple that may be showing up? In any case if I watch the
charging voltage and don't let it pass the 107 volt mark will that be
satisfactoy? I am in a position that I can keep a close eye on things and
once I find out how long it takes for a charge under certain conditions I
can set the timer accordingly, I am repeating the same use of the Zamboni
with small variances such as dull blade, taken off more ice , cold batteries
(Wow what a difference from 1st flood with cold batteries and the last flood
with warm batteries)etc.
thanks again
Ellery
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Older Sealed beams are a bit wasteful energy wise. I found out that there
are limits on brightness but not dimness. 35 watt DOT H4 are available. I
found this company as one that offers sealed beam conversion kits.
Basically a sealed beam with the back part cut out to fit and H4 bulb. I
have a 35watt in my motorcycle. Any 5 or 7 inch sealed beam can be
converted.
http://www.bluhmenterprises.com/
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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I'm getting ready to build my rear battery box and have made a mockup. I
could make the box out of angle iron, or sheet metal (not aluminum; I don't
have TIG welder). If I use sheet metal, I'd like some advice on how thick
(gauge) it needs to be to safely support the weight of the TS cells.
There's a 3-part image at:
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/Mockup3Fold.jpg .
The first image shows the cutout of the gas tank hump. It measures 36 x
10.5 inches. The battery box won't drop down into it, but will span it.
The second image shows a particle board mockup of the battery box. Box has
two levels (rear level about 4 inches higher than front) and is 45-1/8
inches at its widest point. The 18 inches from front to back, divided into
10.5-inch front section and 7.5-inch rear section.
The third image shows my (artistically poor!) attempt at demonstrating what
the TS cell arrangement will look like in the box.
The front part of the box will hold around 275 pounds of TS cells, and the
rear part of the box will hold around 190 pounds of TS cells.
All advice appreciated.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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You might want to poke around the Land Speed racing sites and see
what they do to optimize aerodynamics. Smooth hubcaps, removing the
right side exterior mirror, removing the antenna, covering the bed,
and blocking off the grill are easy things.
Shaving the rain gutters and door handles, narrow wheels, and
lowering would be a "Stage II."
Going all out: Chop the top, section the bed so it tapers to the
rear, belly pan, and cover the rear wheel wells.
Going really all out: Throw away the truck body and put on a
fiberglass Corvette replica body.
In any case, you can do alot of aero optimization cheaper than Lion
or Nicad or Nimh batteries.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:00 AM
> Subject: 100 mile trip
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I'm new to the world of EV, but have used PV on my 5th wheel
> (www.ironandwood.org/graphics/PV_RE.pdf an article in HOME POWER)
> so I'm
> primed for a conversion.
> >
> > But I have a problem, I need to have a 100 mile range. I am in
> Tucson AZ,
> actually about 25 miles outside in 3 Points. So when I go into town
> for
> shopping, movie, dinner, friends, whatever, I need to have a 100
> mile range.
> The end (and also every beginning) of my trip is up an incline of
> about 1%
> for 5 miles. For most of the drive, 25 miles, into tucson I can
> travel at 65
> mph, but 55 is fine. I would like the conversion to be a light
> truck, S-10,
> Ranger or Toyota Extrcab so that if need be I can carry some
> materials and I
> also figure that I can put the batteries under the bed, maybe even
> replace
> the metal bed with wood (if weight wise that is possible). Even
> though it is
> hot in the summer I don't need AC, just some heat for defrost and
> if it is
> cold.
> >
> > So far I have come up with the following: truck donner S-10,
> Ranger,
> Toyota Xtracab or similiar with a FB4001 motor, a Zilla controller
> and a BIG
> battery pack, at least 120 V pack (120 v / 6 v =20 bats x 72 lbs =
> 1440
> lbs). I would use the Zilla to limit the amount of volts that go to
> the
> motor so that the volts don't cook the motor (thanks to Rich for
> the
> suggestion). And of course a PFC50 charger so I can use 120, 240 v
> outlets
> and really charge up the pack fast.
> >
> > If I go to 156 V, the weight becomes 1872 lbs, 170 V pack is
> 2040.
> >
> > How do I figure out what my reserve would be with the various
> volt packs?
> >
> > Am I pushing the frame specs by adding so much weight?
> >
> > >From my PV experience I know that the Trojan L-16H (6 volt, 20 H
> rate 420
> AH , 121 lbs, 11 5/8 L x 7 W x 16 3/4 H) is the preferred battery
> cause it
> holds so many amp hrs with basicly the same footprint, only higher
> by 6
> inches, which in a house is no problem. Is the increased weight not
> worth
> the increased Amps? Again how do I figure how many miles I can get
> from
> Amps?
> >
> >
> > With the L-16H's the 140 V pack is 2904 lbs but 420 AH at 20 H
> rate. 120 V
> pack is 2420 lbs.
> >
> > All comments are welcome...
=====
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