EV Digest 4124
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Battery Box Advice Sought
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Fuel cell debunking info
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: World's First Solar-Powered Drag Race
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: max. wet cell temperatures
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: BELT-ALTERNATOR-STARTERS
by "Jonathan \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 100 mile trip
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) March NBEAA meeting announcement
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: max. wet cell temperatures (and OT Honda ICE batt.
regulators)
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Light weight Ring and Pinion
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Siemens motors - More info available
by "Markus L" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Ampabout ... Don't Think Neighbor
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: max. wet cell temperatures (and OT Honda ICE batt. regulators)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Battery Box Advice Sought
by "Matthew D. Graham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Simple Fuse Indicator
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Simple Fuse Indicator
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Brakes on 300zx
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Regenerating a series wound motor
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: NEDRA Wattage Classes
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) More calculator stuff
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Impromptu NBEAA meeting on Saturday
by Nick Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fuel Cell debunking info needed
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 100 mile trip
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Battery Box Advice Sought
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bill, I made mine from 18ga sheet metal and welded it as a structural part
of the car. I would have used 20ga steel (same thickness as the car), but I
only had a MIG, and 20ga is too light for me to weld with a MIG. To
reinforce the box I had a mechanical engineer make a few suggestions for
stiffening the box. The stiffening members are put around the bottom
corners as well as an "X" on the bottom of the box.
So far, they are excellent. They easily support the weight of the lead acid
batteries I put inside them, and are very rigid with the supports. Although
I have not crashed tested them, I have beat them up, jumped on them, bang
them around with wood 4x4s and there is not signs of any damage (of course
200lbs at 50mph is another story). I expect they are as good as or better
than other metal boxes done with thicker steel. The rear box is designed to
hold 640 lbs.
Here is the web page:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_BatteryBoxConstruction.html The corner
stiffening member is not as shown. I simply took a light gauge box section
and cut it to fit the corner:
+--
|
|
|
|
| |
+-----------+
This light sheet metal really warps while welding, so here are a few tips:
- use TIG if you can, it produces much less heat
- tack **everything** in place before making final welds to prevent
heat warpage
- use aluminium bars clamped to the welds to absorb heat while
welding
- use heat absorbent paste to help to absorb heat while welding
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bill Dennis
Sent: February 24, 2005 10:48 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Battery Box Advice Sought
I'm getting ready to build my rear battery box and have made a mockup. I
could make the box out of angle iron, or sheet metal (not aluminum; I don't
have TIG welder). If I use sheet metal, I'd like some advice on how thick
(gauge) it needs to be to safely support the weight of the TS cells.
There's a 3-part image at:
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/Mockup3Fold.jpg .
The first image shows the cutout of the gas tank hump. It measures 36 x
10.5 inches. The battery box won't drop down into it, but will span it.
The second image shows a particle board mockup of the battery box. Box has
two levels (rear level about 4 inches higher than front) and is 45-1/8
inches at its widest point. The 18 inches from front to back, divided into
10.5-inch front section and 7.5-inch rear section.
The third image shows my (artistically poor!) attempt at demonstrating what
the TS cell arrangement will look like in the box.
The front part of the box will hold around 275 pounds of TS cells, and the
rear part of the box will hold around 190 pounds of TS cells.
All advice appreciated.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Why assume oil needs to be involved at all? The
>nature of oil demands
>a few, big companies to "mine" and distribute it.
>The nature of H2 is
>that appliances in the home could provide it,
>or "gas" stations could
>make it themselves.
Ever take a look at the oil industry's plans to develop(and
thereby own/control) the pipe infrastructure? Or the DOE's
lowest infrastructure cost estimates based on using existing
gas stations(Which oil companies own and control)? For that
matter, most gas stations are owned by the oil companies
themselves(Though the possibility of many independent new
stations is intriguing and highly viable, I wouldn't bet
money on it). Hydrogen keeps people tied to the pump in some
form, unless they make the H2 themselves.
Which takes us to your statement on DIY H2. You are
completely right in that H2 can be produced at home and is
catered to that, unlike oil. That's the way I think it
should be should hydrogen become reality. It's all a matter
of whether some bogus regulations will get passed that would
bar the everyday person from making it themselves on grounds
of 'safety', and regardless of that hypothetical situation,
the initial cost of the equipment used in the process of
making the hydrogen, compressing it, and storing it would be
too steep for the everday person to regularly consider in
the case it costs more than $2k, otherwise we'd be seeing
more solar panels and wind turbines around on rooftops
powering homes and saving people money in the long term
(although compressing H2 is much less of an issue with
hydride tanks). I have no idea what the cost for such a
production/storage/compression system would be for home use
and good for making enough H2 a day for 30 miles driving,
and I have tried to find it.
Too many unknowns and hard to find figures.
>If the hydride tanks lasted a long time, a solar
>panel or wind mill
>powered H2 setup could actually be greener than a
>battery EV. Yes the
>H2 setup needs bigger panels or windmills, but if
>the hydride tanks
>last longer it needs less energy/pollution to build
>one set of
>hydride tanks than several sets of batteries.
With this I agree, but there's that 'if' word. I tried
finding data on the pollution associated with and energy
consumed making appropriately-sized hydride tanks for a car
and could not find it. My best guess is that it would be
similar to NiMH batteries or any other metal hydride battery
chemistries that have been tried.
Needless to say, I'm very interested in the figures and have
been for a long time. Still looking. I'd guess that it is
less over its lifetime than any battery.
This would also be an instance where 'greener' would at the
same time mean 'more energy consumption'. :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jessica & Donald Jansen & Crabtree wrote:
>
> HI-
> Looking at their web site, there calculations were based on accelerating
> 100kg ~ 220lb with 1680 watts ~ 820ft
> The rules also state that the driver must be weighted to 175lb. 220-175=45
> Why don't some of you computer dragracing geeks get your back sides out
> of that custom fit chair and out to the shop and build a 45lb vehicle with a
> 1680watt
> array of PV and come to the race.
Good point!
Let's see... how about an electric bicycle with a "trailer" consisting
of a flat 30'x7' solar panel on wheels?
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Raymond Knight wrote:
> 50 to 60c is less than the average operating temperature under the
> hood of most ICE vehicles. At 125F the battery will actually have
> 105% of its capacity measured at 80F. So I would think you will
> see no negative effect on the batteries.
Lead-acid battery capacity goes up with temperature, true enough. But
it's calendar life expectancy goes down. If you are going to "use up"
the battery quickly due to high currents and deep discharge cycles, then
keep it hot. But if you expect it to last for years, keep it cool.
> I would be more concerned about the over heating of your
> motors. As their temperature rises, so does their power requirement.
Only trivially so. Copper has a positive temperature coefficient; it's
resistance goes up slightly with temperature. But you can usually ignore
this effect from an efficiency standpoint.
Usually, designers only worry about the peak insulation temperature, and
run the motors, transformers, etc. as hot as they can stand without
exceeding the insulation ratings.
> Most modern alternators already have temperature compensation in them.
Yes; but it is often very crude and makes lots of assumptions. For
instance, they often guesstimate the battery temperature from the
alternator's temperature, which is often only vaguely related.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While not as "pure" as a traditional hybrid, this technology returns
much of the benefit at dramatically lower cost. Actually this IS
hybrid technology, simply delivered via a belt instead of gears and
couplings. Why am I not surprised to hear the usual suspects
criticizing this technology instead of praising it?
On the contrary.. I'm delighted by any research into hybrid-EV
operations, even if they are 'just' BAS systems - the more vehicles
built with traction power coming from a battery pack are deployed, the
more we will learn about battery management, drive systems, etc - and
the cheaper all of these things will be for us pure EV enthusiests.
The automakers have to walk before they can run - this is expected, and
good.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm primed for a conversion... So far I have come up with the
> following: Truck donor S-10, Ranger, Toyota Xtracab or similiar
> with an FB4001 motor, a Zilla controller and a BIG battery pack,
> at least 120 V pack (120 v / 6 v =20 bats x 72 lbs = 1440 lbs).
It sounds like you have a good handle on what needs to be done. The key
of course is to get a high *percentage* of the vehicle's total weight in
batteries. Modern pickups like the Chevy S-10 or Toyota Xtracab are
pretty heavy (4000-5000 lbs), but have pitiful stock load-carrying
capacities (typically 1000-1500 lbs). They have become cars that look
like trucks. You'll have to get higher-capacity versions, or add
aftermarket equipment to increase the load rating.
Luckily, you live in a place where older vehicles are still available
and practical. So, I think I would look for an older, less-porky pickup
with a high load-carrying capacity. The older the better!
As an extreme, the early Datsun and Toyota mini-pickups are unbeatable.
My 1974 Datsun pickup weighed 2700 lbs and had a 4000 lbs GVWR. After
pulling the engine and related parts, I had a vehicle that could carry
over 40% of its weight in batteries without going over GVWR. It could
carry your 20 T-145's with ease, and the tiny frontal area and light
weight would give it tremendous range.
> I would set the Zilla to limit the amount of volts that go to
> the motor so that the volts don't cook the motor (thanks to Rich
> for the suggestion).
I think that should be to limit the CURRENT, not the voltage! You'd fry
the motor for sure if you limited it to low voltage!
> If I go to 156V, the weight becomes 1872 lbs, 170V pack is 2040.
I doubt that a modern pickup can carry that much weight safely.
> How do I figure out what my reserve would be with the various
> volt packs?
It's not the voltage; it's the total pack weight as a percentage of
total vehicle weight.
> From my PV experience I know that the Trojan L-16H (6 volt, 20H
> rate 420 AH, 121 lbs, 11 5/8 L x 7 W x 16 3/4 H) is the preferred
> battery... Is the increased weight not worth the increased Amps?
Golf cart batteries (T105, T125, T145) and the L16 are basically the
same, just repackaged. The same *weight* of any of give about the same
range and life. The L16, being heavier, just leads to a lower system
voltage. The motors and controllers generally availalble favor a higher
system voltage; thus the golf cart batteries are generally a better
match.
> Again, how do I figure how many miles I can get from Amps?
Think WATTHOURS, not volts or amphours. Multiply the battery's voltage
times its amphours (preferably at the 1-hour rate, not the 20-hour rate)
to get the battery's figure of merit.
Most EVs use around 300 watthours per mile. To go 100 miles takes (100
miles x 300wh/mile) = 30,000wh (or 30 kwh). The T-145 delivers 6v x
200ah = 1200wh (at the 6-hour rate; best number I have handy :-). So,
you need 30,000wh / 1200wh = 25 of them to go 100 miles (in 6 hours,
i.e. driving at 17 mph!). 25 T-145's weigh 25 x 72 lbs = 1800 lbs and
you have a 25 x 6v = 150v system.
In comparison, the L16 delivers 6v x 300ah = 1800wh (at the 6-hour
rate). So you need 30,000wh / 1800wh = 17 of them to go 100 miles. 17 x
113 lbs = 1921 lbs -- hardly any difference. But now you have a 17 x 6v
= 102v system.
Do the same sort of calculation for any batteries you are considering.
As you can see, it's best if you can find or estimate the true capacity
at the 1-hour or 2-hour rate. I doubt you want to drive at 16 mph! :-)
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
March NBEAA Meeting Announcement
1 - ~3pm, Sunday, 13th March, 2005
Fred Cork has invited NBEAA to be a part of his Oil on Ice house
party on Sunday March 13. See http://nbeaa.org/cork.html for
details.
NBEAA has also been asked to participate again in the Earth Day
Celebration
at the Calpine Geothermal Visitor Center in Middletown this year.
It will be on April 24th. The pages http://nbeaa.org and
http://nbeaa.org/futuremeetings.htm#FutureEVents will have the
details.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All (thanks to those who replied)
I may not have been as clear as I could have been of the conditions that
the battery will be under.
At 12:41 PM 24/02/05 -0500, Raymond Knight wrote:
50 to 60c is less than the average operating temperature under the hood of
most ICE vehicles. At 125F the battery will actually have 105% of its
capacity measured at 80F. So I would think you will see no negative effect
on the batteries.
I couldn't see there would be a significant effect due to the battery. Can
someone give me an idea of the full-charge voltage that the 12V battery
would be at under these temperatures?
We are anticipating that the battery will not be deeply discharged during
normal operations (its' biggest load is the autopilot acuator - also
working on collision avoidance actions. We think that there is enough
generation capacity to keep the battery full, which is why I'm more
concerned about the regulators' potential to cause problems at these
temperatures.
The Honda regulator you are using, is that the one in the vehicles
alternator?
The base vehicle is an 85cc 4-stroke quad bike, the regulator is a
'factory' add-on, magneto generator with an external module. No idea on
part numbers, etc. I doubt it has temperature compensation. The battery is
stuck out on the front of the vehicle where the sun will be shining on it
(we will be adding sun-shields), but there will be little engine heat. Wind
cooling will not help much, at a target speed of 6km/h. If the system works
as a whole to the level the customer is anticipating, we may get to build a
ground-up vehicle that we would like to do as an EV using a solar array as
its' power source (which the customer likes the idea of). We have not done
a full evaluation of the power requirements and other considerations of
such a vehicle, so that will be a matter for a later date.
There seems to be no adjustments available on the regulator, but I could
put diodes in the charge circuit to lower the voltage that reaches the
battery (although this may upset the regulator). Depending on version, some
of these 'lighting coil' regulators are designed as implied by its name -
to regulate enough to provide a suficiently stable voltage for lights when
used with no battery, and provide an 'acceptable' level of charge under
temperate conditions when using a battery.
If the battery is likely to be OK for 6 months of these conditions, then
they are happy to accept that, knowing that this is a prototype (the
vehicle would be changed if there is another one). I am more concerned that
the battery may suddenly 'collapse' on them, shutting it all down and being
unable to call for help with no radio power, and a problem to find (since
it could be 5km away from the camp site).
All opinions welcome, and thanks.
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The ring gear weighs up to 2 lbs less:
http://www.motivegear.com/press/88ax.htm
You might think "Oh, only 2 pounds!?". 2 lbs less rotating weight
should be fairly significant I would think?
Also, has anyone here ever driven a vehicle that had a spool in it?
The stock Traction Loc weighs ~19 lbs:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=225
A spool might only weigh 8 lbs:
http://www.strangeengineering.net/catalog/13.html
I just cringe at the thought of when the vehicle is turning and the
inner tire wants to turn slower but can't... Nascar's don't seem to
have any problem with it though do they?
I wonder about making a tight turn with the spool. Maybe a lot of
stress on the axle(s)? Might be hard on the tires? Or is it no
problem?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys,
I happen to have a bit more information on these Siemens motors.
The ranger version by Ballard is a complete package with an
an integrated single ratio gear reduction as well as a
differential. I think the gear reduction is about 10:1. The
motor has a hollow armature shaft, and the gear reduction
and differential attached to one side incl. a park lock.
The picture on the motors for sale shows the flange for this
gearbox. (Motor RPM is up to 14000RPM)
Through the hollow motor shaft the drive shaft at the opposite
end of the motor is connected to the differential and gear
reduction output.
Question is, can these parts be gotten from ballard? I'd guess
not. Ballard also makes a matching inverter. The new version
of this drive system is labeled A 312V67 MS. 67 kw peak, 32kw
continuous. 190 Nm peak torque. 260 - 385 V. CAN Capable.
I have some measurements if somebody is interested in the
packaging.
Markus
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Markus L
> Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 11:05 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Siemens motors
>
>
> Lawrence,
>
> IMO these motors are great. We have a complete ranger drive in our
> shop right now which we are putting into a dodge neon.
>
> However, the motors offered by Electro Mavin are only the bare
> motors. The ranger drive has a differential (and I think a
> gear reduction) added to it that also has a "park" position.
> The half-shafts are then coupled directly to this motor/differential
> combination. The motor for sale is missing all this.
>
> Also they do not sell matching inverters and I think the inverter
> is actually the expensive part in such a system. On the EV trading
> post I saw an AC traction controller for sale in about the right
> power range. Maybe somebody could combine the two and adapt them to
> each other. For me this would be too much of a task and risk, I
> would rather pay more and get a warranted and working solution from
> MetricMind.
>
> Markus
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
> > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 5:14 PM
> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List;
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Siemens motors
> >
> >
> > Electro Mavin co. has the following Siemens AC Induction
> > Electric Vehicle
> > motors FOR SALE...
> >
> > AC ELECTRIC MOTORS made by SIEMENS as used in the FORD
> > ELECTRIC RANGERS
> >
> > We do not have any Inverters or Controllers or
> > Batteries.....just the above
> > mentioned motors only
> >
> > This is the situation with these Ranger motors. Does anyone
> > know if there
> > are off the shelf solutions for these? Is an adapter needed
> > or will it bolt
> > right into a Ranger or a gear reduction Lawrence Rhodes.......
> >
> >
> > Lawrence Rhodes
> > Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> > Reedmaker
> > Book 4/5 doubler
> > Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 415-821-3519
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My schedule has been a bit busy lately. I am winding down my
selling rebuilt PCs the money going to the EV charging
infrastructure installations.
I will be trading that time for the on-line classes I will be
starting in April. It may take me a while to earn a BSCS degree
because I won't be taking a full load while I am working.
But I have made time for other things too. One of those was the
POST to the EVDL about a person in Atherton who needed help with
her EV.
An EAA member came over last Saturday to go with me. We used my
EV to get there, because his ICE died (OK all EV drivers may
chuckle now). After we grabbed lunch, the EV was only a few
miles away from my home.
We met the owner in their driveway next to a Ford Th!nk nEV
which looked like it had been sitting for months (dirt, leaves,
etc.).
She (the owner) said the nEV won't not start even after
charging it for several days. And that is why it had been
sitting in the driveway for over six months (looked like a
year).
I had done my homework the night before, reading all the
pertinent entries on the Th!nk forum. They had mentioned three
different revisions of motor-controller assemblies. Also, that
the charger may hum, but that the sound is no indication that
the pack is actually getting current.
We first worked to get at the batteries. Our fear was that the
72V pack was six old dried out group 27 deep-cycle wet-cell
batteries, and all that sitting around not charged had sulfated
them to death.
Different than the GEM nEV, the Think Neighbor nEV placed its
battery pack directly under the front driver-passenger seats.
We removed the seat bottoms to start removing a large plastic
shroud underneath the seat frame which covers the batteries.
The shroud was held on with mostly plastic screw-in clips, as
well as four bolts. These bolts screwed in to spot-welded nuts
which were on the underside of the seat's metal cross bar. We
noticed that the plastic around one of the bolts holding the
shroud had been cut-away, as if to by-pass the bolt.
We found out why.
Two of the four bolts came out, but the last one would not come
out. It was captured. The nut had broken its weld and was
spinning. There was no way to get the bolt out. So we got
permission to cut the plastic around that bolt.
With the shroud off, we saw that it was not a wet-cell pack,
but six gel-cell type batteries (similar to what the Solectria
Force EV uses).
As I measured each battery by lifting up the protective cap. I
had to probe through a huge brown grease blob that Ford
applied to each battery terminal (odd). All the batteries
measured 13 VDC except one which read 12 VDC.
Measuring across pack I read 77.1 VDC. As we plugged in the
battery charger, the pack voltage did not rise. Even changing
the position of the service toggle switch did not make a
difference. This meant to me the charger was not pushing
current to the pack, else the pack voltage would have risen.
I put a standard 6 amp automotive battery charger on one of the
13 VDC batteries. It initially took 4 amps, but tapered off to
3 amps in about 5 minutes. I used a second automotive battery
charger on another 13 VDC battery, with similar results.
I felt the pack was not totally dead but likely partially charged.
It had likely self-discharged from months of sitting around in
their driveway.
With the nEV not able to start (no display when the key is on),
and the charger is not working, advised the owner to consider
getting an estimate of the repair costs, and looking at the web
for a replacement nEV cost.
She mentioned that she had bought the nEV through her company for
only $1000. I let her know the days of automakers giving-away
nEVs for CARB credits were gone. But there are low priced nEVs
on Ebay and other outlets. She said she would check it out.
But this hands-on experience with the Ford Think Neighbor nEV,
has me form my own opinion of which nEV to buy.
IMHO:
With a design that looks like the Ford team threw it together as
quickly and cheaply as possible, with no consideration of any
regular maintenance (cheap bolts and welds that break), Think
again if you are looking to buy a Neighbor nEV. Plus it is a
discontinued line. The GEM is still in production, and has plenty
of support. Not to mention a much better design for the same
price range (used).
-
=====
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Massey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Can someone give me an idea of the full-charge voltage that the
> 12V battery would be at under these temperatures?
A typical charge voltage for a flooded lead acid battery is 2.43V/cell @
27C.
This is 14.6V @ 27C. Temperature compensate by 0.030V/deg. C, so 14.0V
@50C, and 13.6V @ 60C.
> We are anticipating that the battery will not be deeply
> discharged during normal operations
Is the generator runnng continuously? If so, then setting the regulator
up for more of a float voltage (~13.2V @ 27C, temperature compensate as
above) may be the better way to go.
If the generator isn't running continuously, what determines when it
starts and stops?
> If the battery is likely to be OK for 6 months of these
> conditions, then they are happy to accept that, knowing
> that this is a prototype (the vehicle would be changed
> if there is another one). I am more concerned that the
> battery may suddenly 'collapse' on them, shutting it all
> down and being unable to call for help with no radio
> power, and a problem to find (since it could be 5km
> away from the camp site).
I would strongly suggest that the vehicle either have the intelligence
to regularly report its system status (including battery voltage) by
radio to provide advance warning of an impending battery failure, or
preferrably, that it include some sort of emergency locating transmitter
with its own power source (e.g. primary batteries).
> All opinions welcome, and thanks.
A flooded battery may be a poor choice for this application, since the
electrolyte will tend to evaporate in the high ambient. One of the
advertised advantages of Optimas in automotive use is their ability to
survive higher temperature ambients better than flooded batteries, so a
Group 31 yellow or blue top might be a better choice. They will also
stand up to vibration better and will keep on running even in the event
that the vehicle tips over (electrolyte will not spill out).
Depending on the voltage output by the lighting coil, you might be
better off to use one of the aftermarket regulators targetting boaters
as they are reputed to provide a better charge profile than stock
regulators and may even have temperature compensation and/or
adjustability features. Locate the regulator near the battery so that
it 'sees' something more representative of the battery temperature.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
That sounds exactly like where I was just a few months ago. I debated this
issue for the four battery boxes in the Nissan 240SX conversion I'm working
on for holding 25 Orbitals. I found that after exhaustively working on all
the design details of sheet metal boxes and incorporating features for all
the strength-adding ribbed supports, I didn't have the tools and technical
expertise to do it myself, and for the life of me, couldn't get anyone to
quote the job for me.
So, I ended up going with the angle iron approach. Easy to weld, but hard to
look at. Of course my preference (and I assume yours) would be to have
beautiful, perfectly incorporated sheet metal boxes. In the end, my decision
was really based on what I could get done in the interest of getting the car
on the road sooner rather than later. I've always planned on improving on
this aspect in the future by ripping out the angle iron and installing
professional sheet metal boxes. Of course, after a visit with John Wayland
in Bend a couple weeks back (story to follow later) I've been absolutely
shamed into moving that higher up in my list of priorities.
That said, I expected to use 18GA steel for my boxes when I considered doing
it myself. (Later, I was leaning towards aluminum, done professionally) With
Dutch bends and ribs for support, it should be pretty sturdy. Of course,
thicker gauge might be necessary for other reasons--namely your welding
equipment and skills. I've had difficulty MIG welding 20 GA, and sometimes
18, even when using Argon. Then again, my welding experience is very
limited.
Let us know what you decide!
Matt Graham
300V Nissan 240SX (STILL in progress!)
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Dennis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Battery Box Advice Sought
I'm getting ready to build my rear battery box and have made a mockup. I
could make the box out of angle iron, or sheet metal (not aluminum; I don't
have TIG welder). If I use sheet metal, I'd like some advice on how thick
(gauge) it needs to be to safely support the weight of the TS cells.
There's a 3-part image at:
http://www.fredrickgroup.com/ElectricCarConversion/Mockup3Fold.jpg .
The first image shows the cutout of the gas tank hump. It measures 36 x
10.5 inches. The battery box won't drop down into it, but will span it.
The second image shows a particle board mockup of the battery box. Box has
two levels (rear level about 4 inches higher than front) and is 45-1/8
inches at its widest point. The 18 inches from front to back, divided into
10.5-inch front section and 7.5-inch rear section.
The third image shows my (artistically poor!) attempt at demonstrating what
the TS cell arrangement will look like in the box.
The front part of the box will hold around 275 pounds of TS cells, and the
rear part of the box will hold around 190 pounds of TS cells.
All advice appreciated.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
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--- Begin Message ---
That is why I was surprised the doorbell button lighted on the 12V horn
circuit, Althought the button is usually on the secondary 24Volt of a
doorbell transformer so it shouldn't surprise me. I drove with it today
and I noticed that it isn't really bright enough in full daylight. I
really like the suggestion of replacing the battery light witha green
one and I think I'll go one step furthour and use a tristate led, one of
the 3 leaders. Green is "on" red is "no dc-dc" so amber means I am
driving without my dc-dc.
--
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Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can you replace the bulb itself with one that has a lower voltage rating?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 3:42 PM
Subject: Re: Simple Fuse Indicator
That is why I was surprised the doorbell button lighted on the 12V horn
circuit, Althought the button is usually on the secondary 24Volt of a
doorbell transformer so it shouldn't surprise me. I drove with it today
and I noticed that it isn't really bright enough in full daylight. I
really like the suggestion of replacing the battery light witha green one
and I think I'll go one step furthour and use a tristate led, one of the 3
leaders. Green is "on" red is "no dc-dc" so amber means I am driving
without my dc-dc.
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.4.0 - Release Date: 2/22/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am finishing up my adapter to get the warp 9 married up to the nissan
tranny and am looking forward into the other "stuff" I need to do.
How reasonable would it be to change master cyl or calipers and
eliminate the power brake booster. I would like to keep this car simple
it is already going to be overweight.
willwood,tilton? Anyone have nissan 300zx suggestions. (1987 300zx- "z31" )
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for your reply.
The alternator idea would be far to midland there is no room to fit.
I have agonised over ideas to regenerate with this controller/drive
system. It seems to me that the controller could feed the series field
direct with the armature bypassing the controller either using the built
in back diodes of the mosfets or separate ones to the battery. When you
put your foot on the brakes the controller feed the field only. You
could train your self to apply force to brake pedal and accelerator
pedal at same time. The harder you hit the accel pedal the more braking.
If the controller does not like field only perhaps some additional
inductance could be added. I should think formidable braking would be
available this way and if you have a gearbox you could flip thru the
gears like an F1 driver. My travels take me thru hilly country where
mechanical braking is needed if no elec braking can be done.
Perhaps you would be brave to try this out. A blown controller is
expensive to repair.
David Sharpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, 25 February 2005 4:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Regenerating a series wound motor
David Sharpe wrote:
> I have a converted Diahatsu Charade that I bought from the CSIRO
> here in Melbourne Australia. It has a 4001A 9" motor and DCP1200
> controller on 144V 99Ahr Panasonic batteries. I would like to get
> engine braking automatically. Can the controller be arranged to
> supply the field only and connect the armature direct to the
> batteries during braking?
This motor and controller aren't designed for "engine" or regenerative
braking. It could be added to them, but it's a lot of trouble and
probably not worth the effort.
A much better method would be to add a separate generator or alternator
for engine braking / regenerative braking. In its simplest form, it is
an ordinary auto alternator belt-driven from the traction motor much
like it would be in a normal car. Use the brake light switch to command
the alternator to full power when you step on the brakes. This will dump
braking energy into the car's 12v accessory battery. This will give you
mild "engine" braking; about like a normal car if you simply take your
foot off the accellerator.
For more aggressive braking, use a larger alternator, chosen or rewound
to charge the main propulsion pack. You'll have to build your own
voltage regulator to control the amount of charging current it produces
-- basically a scaled-up version of the circuit in a normal alternator.
This will produce braking force similar to a normal car when you
downshift it.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Also, where are you getting the http://www.nedra.com/records.html link
>from?
>
http://www.nedra.com/links.html
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi listees -
I've fixed a javascript problem and the EV Calculator is back up to speed with
the new variables, so now I'm back here begging for new info - feel free to
double check anything you feel may be in error, and let me know what might be
useful to everyone. Also, if anyone works with javascript, I'd love to add an
acceleration section - right now, the controller's peak current entry is a moot
point.
cowtown @ spamcop.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There will be an impromptu get-together
this Saturday (Feb 26th) at Thunderstruck Motors
in Santa Rosa for test drives of two Vectrix
e-motorbikes with Jim Plagenhoef, Director of Sales
for North America, Vectrix Corporation.
This meeeting is quite a coup for NBEAA and
something I've been working on for some time, so
please come along and give Jim feedback on this
exciting new form of electric transportation.
More info at:
http://www.vectrixusa.com
Start time: 10am.
Location:
Thunderstruck Motors
3200 Dutton Avenue #220
Santa Rosa, CA 95407
(707)575-0353 Tel/Fax
http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com
Avcon, 220V and 110V charging available.
and here's a map:
http://tinyurl.com/4fcgk
Look forward to seeing you there,
Nick
Dr Nick Carter,
Owner, npc Imaging, 2228 Magowan Drive, Santa Rosa, CA 95405 USA
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax: +1 (707) 573 9361
http://www.npcimaging.com
ex-Th!nk City EV driver
President, North Bay Electric Auto Association
"Spare the air every day - drive electric!"
***************************************************************
** CoachMe - Complete Opera/Soloist Roles on audio CD **
** 59 CD sheet music titles: thousands of pages from $18.95! **
** CD-ROM versions of Ted Ross and Stiller Handbook **
** Books by Powell, Stone, Ross, Gerou & Lusk, Stiller, etc. **
** Dover miniature & full-size orchestral scores in stock **
***************************************************************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A couple small issues you might want to correct:
> kilowatt for an internal combustion engine [60]. Not only
> that, it currently costs $5.00 per kilogram of gaseous
> hydrogen [63], or about 33 kWh worth [64], while a gallon of
> gasoline, containing the same amount of energy [64], is
> about $1.90 in the United States.
While this is interesting, it's kind of useless information since we can't
extract 100% of the energy stored in either hydrogen or gasoline. What is
much more important (at least to the average consumer) is "How far can I
go on $1 worth of X" or "How much does it cost me to go Y distance"
Where X would be Hydrogen, Gasoline or Electricity.
Currently, in an average car, you can go about;
14 miles per $1 of Gas (CAFE requires 27.5 mpg average)
25-40 in a hybrid.
20-40 miles per $1 of Electricity
12-24 miles per $1 of Hydrogen (depending on the actual cost of the H2)
Note: the final figure assumes a cost of $.19 to $.38 per kwh of fuel cell
output, http://www.acpropulsion.com/Veh_Grid_Power/V2G-Cal-ExecSum.pdf)
> The main problem with
> hydrogen fuel cells, however, is that they will not make
> American consumers independent from oil use in their
> automobiles unless a drastic change in hydrogen production
> occurs. The majority of hydrogen produced comes from crude
> oil as of today [65].
Umm, actually most hydrogen is produced from natural gas, not oil, though
I'll grant you that natural gas is a petroleum by-product.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rush, David and All,
--- David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You might want to poke around the Land Speed racing
> sites and see
> what they do to optimize aerodynamics. Smooth
> hubcaps, removing the
> right side exterior mirror, removing the antenna,
> covering the bed,
> and blocking off the grill are easy things.
>
> Shaving the rain gutters and door handles, narrow
> wheels, and
> lowering would be a "Stage II."
>
> Going all out: Chop the top, section the bed so it
> tapers to the
> rear, belly pan, and cover the rear wheel wells.
>
> Going really all out: Throw away the truck body and
> put on a
> fiberglass Corvette replica body.
I like this idea using as Lee said an older,
small truck frame from the 70's Datsun, Luv's, ect
when some trucks really were small but still carried
weight well , better in fact than todays so called
compact trucks do. There are several kit cars bodies
that could be put on it that are aero.
Though on one of them you could put on an aero
rear shell with other aero mods since they are fairly
lightweight and lower frontal area could work.
Wood can be good for this as it can weigh 1/2 as
much easily and made very aero. How you do it is make
1/4 rounds just behind the cab like they do on
semi-trailer fronts and then curve the sides, top
inward as it goes aft will greatly decrease your aero
drag by 1/3 or maybe more if done right.
Done right you could get your wthr/mile down to
200/mile allowing small batt packs, ect with a 50%
batt weight ratio needed for 100 mile range.
For a while in the 80's, El Camino's were fairly
small and might do for you.
Another is build an aero EV car with extra power
and tow a trailer when you need to haul stuff.
For extra range you could have a small gen to
charge while driving or when you can't get a plug
though it needs to be a 3ph AC or DC gen or a PFC
charger as 1 ph doesn't charge eff or well. I prefer
using a DC gen as most eff, cheaper usually.
I have places around town where I usually go so
when I stop I can just plug in while shopping, seing
friends, having dinner. All the parking garages here
in Tampa have lots of plugs while I'm out on the town.
So basicly start with smaller size, lightweight,
more aero and you'll be sucessful at reasonable costs.
And/or use good charging stratigies to increase
range to lower costs, weights.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> In any case, you can do alot of aero optimization
> cheaper than Lion
> or Nicad or Nimh batteries.
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 8:00 AM
> > Subject: 100 mile trip
> >
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I'm new to the world of EV, but have used PV on
> my 5th wheel
> > (www.ironandwood.org/graphics/PV_RE.pdf an article
> in HOME POWER)
> > so I'm
> > primed for a conversion.
> > >
> > > But I have a problem, I need to have a 100 mile
> range. I am in
> > Tucson AZ,
> > actually about 25 miles outside in 3 Points. So
> when I go into town
> > for
> > shopping, movie, dinner, friends, whatever, I need
> to have a 100
> > mile range.
> > The end (and also every beginning) of my trip is
> up an incline of
> > about 1%
> > for 5 miles. For most of the drive, 25 miles, into
> tucson I can
> > travel at 65
> > mph, but 55 is fine. I would like the conversion
> to be a light
> > truck, S-10,
> > Ranger or Toyota Extrcab so that if need be I can
> carry some
> > materials and I
> > also figure that I can put the batteries under the
> bed, maybe even
> > replace
> > the metal bed with wood (if weight wise that is
> possible). Even
> > though it is
> > hot in the summer I don't need AC, just some heat
> for defrost and
> > if it is
> > cold.
> > >
> > > So far I have come up with the following: truck
> donner S-10,
> > Ranger,
> > Toyota Xtracab or similiar with a FB4001 motor, a
> Zilla controller
> > and a BIG
> > battery pack, at least 120 V pack (120 v / 6 v =20
> bats x 72 lbs =
> > 1440
> > lbs). I would use the Zilla to limit the amount of
> volts that go to
> > the
> > motor so that the volts don't cook the motor
> (thanks to Rich for
> > the
> > suggestion). And of course a PFC50 charger so I
> can use 120, 240 v
> > outlets
> > and really charge up the pack fast.
> > >
> > > If I go to 156 V, the weight becomes 1872 lbs,
> 170 V pack is
> > 2040.
> > >
> > > How do I figure out what my reserve would be
> with the various
> > volt packs?
> > >
> > > Am I pushing the frame specs by adding so much
> weight?
> > >
> > > >From my PV experience I know that the Trojan
> L-16H (6 volt, 20 H
> > rate 420
> > AH , 121 lbs, 11 5/8 L x 7 W x 16 3/4 H) is the
> preferred battery
> > cause it
> > holds so many amp hrs with basicly the same
> footprint, only higher
> > by 6
> > inches, which in a house is no problem. Is the
> increased weight not
> > worth
> > the increased Amps? Again how do I figure how many
> miles I can get
> > from
> > Amps?
> > >
> > >
> > > With the L-16H's the 140 V pack is 2904 lbs but
> 420 AH at 20 H
> > rate. 120 V
> > pack is 2420 lbs.
> > >
> > > All comments are welcome...
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Whoa! Careful! It looks like you are thinking of using the TS cells
without their aluminum end plates and strapping! They need to be strapped
together, cell to cell, broad sides against each other, not thin sides,
using the hardware supplied by Thunder Sky. They should not be unstrapped,
due to internal pressure, until discharged to an appropriate level as
described in TS battery manual. A practical arrangement, which weighs
about 40 pounds and is similar in size to a 6V GC battery, is a module of 3
of the 200A-Hr. cells strapped together.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 1:47 PM
Subject: Battery Box Advice Sought
snip
The third image shows my (artistically poor!) attempt at demonstrating
what
the TS cell arrangement will look like in the box.
The front part of the box will hold around 275 pounds of TS cells, and the
rear part of the box will hold around 190 pounds of TS cells.
All advice appreciated.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
