EV Digest 4150
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) PM motor for gen RE: 3 phase PM-long and heading OT
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Why bother saving factory EV's???? Cheap EV's and CAREFUL!!!!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) 914EV on ebay,, ooooo
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Why bother saving factory EV's????
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 100,000 volt DC power supply
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Compound wound motors
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 914EV on ebay,, ooooo
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Plug in Hybrids, some OT Re: EVLN(pih: the solution is already with us)
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Compound wound motors
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Why bother saving factory EV's???? Cheap EV's and CAREFUL!!!!!
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) SiC Schottkys part 473
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas.
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Report from Geneva Auto Show - Outside everyday Reality !
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Myles and All,
Surplus Center has a Leeson 1800 rpm, 24vdc,
62amp,, 32 lbs, sealed, 15min duty that should work
for you for a gen at $119.99 though you may need to
put a fan on it at 60 amps though 40 amps should be
cool. Should be 75% eff or better.
# is 10-2119 and phone is 800-488-3407. They
just put out a new catalog.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
--- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks Ray, for the generous offer on the
> alternator.
> I've sent email to my friend to ask him if he's
> interested---I'll email you
> off list if he's interested.
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know, this sounds like something I might like to try. I used to own an old
VW Beetle, and there is a guy near my folks that works on nothing but old VWs.
I bet I could get a mechanically sound one for very little money without an
engine.
I like the idea of a contactor controller too. The problem with this is I can't
for the life of me find anyplace to buy contactors that could handle 72 - 96v
and a reasonable enough amp load for a small ev that aren't so expensive as to
be almost as much as a cursit. Am I missing something?
James
Quoting jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I'd go with the Steve Clunn method of making your
> own adaptor like putting an extension on the trans
> input shaft if nessasary, I don't know what it looks
> like, and drill a hole in the plate to fit it exactly,
> then just drill out the bell housing holes.
> After that centered on that hole and drill the
> motors mounting bolts for it from a paper pattern.
> Then mount it direct to the input shaft with a Love
> Joy or other coupler connector. This will only cost
> under $100 or less if you use 1/2" alum plate. You
> could get by with thinner. Use a 100-150 amp series
> motor you can get for under $400 surplus or used.
> Or do the center pulley thing like the website
> mentioned did and with 2 golf cart motors and 8mm cog
> belts.
> I'd go with 72vdc pack of Trojan 27tmh 12v or
> t105-125's or US batt versions for longer range if
> needed charged with a 36vdc charger modified for 72vdc
> if using an E controller or my favorite, a contactor
> controller and charge them in parallel at 36vdc. By
> series/parallel both the batts and the motors you get
> 3 speeds and 4 gears plus reverse.
> This will get you a true 50mph and about 20 mile
> range with the 12vdc batt pack and probably 50 miles
> with the t125 pack. YMMV
> And do it for around $700-1200 for the EV parts
> depending on how well you can scrounge. And be a much
> better EV than the one from the website.
>
> >
> > It's a great idea, but I don't know enough about
> > this particular kit to
> > say whether it actually works or is junk.
> >
> > As you say, the old VW Beetles are an attractive
> > "glider" due to their
> > simplicity. They are small and light, which scales
> > down all the EV parts
> > needed, to keep the price low. If all you are
> > striving for is NEV type
> > performance, it could indeed be a very simple and
> > inexpensive
> > conversion.
> >
> > I'm trying to imagine the "typical" person that
> > wants to try an EV
> > conversion (if there is such a thing! :-) I see
> > someone who is:
> >
> > - sick and tired of the high cost of driving
> > - has serious environmental or political concerns
> > with our present
> > imported-oil-based transportation system
> > - has a reasonable amount of mechanical skill
> > - likes "tinkering" with things to get them to work
> > - actually enjoys being a bit "different" from
> > others
> > - already has an old car they would like convert
> >
> > Now, what is stopping them from actually doing an EV
> > conversion?
> >
> > - doesn't have much money
> > - no good place to work on it
> > - lack of knowledge
> > - knows very little about EV parts
> > - fear of failure
> >
> > The EV list goes a long way towards addressing these
> > concerns. I think
> > once a person discovers the EV list, it goes a
> > *long* way towards
> > encouraging them to proceed. Information is POWER!
> >
> > But, the EV list isn't very good at providing
> > *complete* information.
> > People are more likely to say "This is how I did it"
> > rather than
> > describe "How *you* can do it" in sufficient detail
> > so a beginner
> > actually *can* do it. Good directions are difficult
> > to write!
> >
> > A good conversion kit helps a lot, but they are only
> > available for a few
> > specific vehicles. And (wouldn't you know it) many
> > potential builders
> > don't happen to have (or are not interested in)
> > those vehicles.
>
> >>
> > I wonder if a motor coupler and adapter plate might
> > be able to be
> > fashioned with similar techniques. Something a "guy
> > in his garage" could
> > make with hand tools. Perhaps by using the vehicle's
> > existing engine
> > block and crankshaft end as patterns (cut 'em off
> > with a torch or
> > sawsall and use them?)
>
> NO!!!! At least not on a VW Bug as they are made
> from magnesium!!!!! Alway be careful especially when
> cutting, grinding as it can explode!!! One kid in
> Sarasota did this with a grinder and the grinded bits
> ignited and badly burned INTO his face!
> And diffinently not using a torch!!
> HTH's,
> jerry dycus
>
> >
> > The goal is to provide sufficiently detailed
> > instructions, that do not
> > require too many special skills or tools, and with
> > sources and prices
> > for parts, so that a reasonable person can look it
> > over and say, "Yes! I
> > can do that!"
> > --
> > "The two most common elements in the universe
> > are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
> Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
> http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4531093063&category=34202&sspagename=WDVW
I am gonna have to hurry up and do my taxes! I will ask him for more specs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"I read of a TEVan being stripped and converted into
conventional ICE
Dodge
Caravan and I cringed."
Mike,
Any details on this? Just curious about the
conversion.
Thanks,
Rod
P.S. What did they do with the extra parts?
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> > > Why bother saving Factory EV's when you can
> convert a VW to electric power
> > > for around $2,000.00.
>
> Don't just save factory EV's, don't just convert of
> VW''s into rather NEV
> like vehicles, save anything that even remotely
> looks like an EV or even
> part of an EV and convert everything in sight!
>
> Face it, EV's work. Some better than others, but
> they all do work. Not
> one should be allowed to be destroyed if at all
> possible. Even less than
> successful once have lessons to teach.
>
> I read of a TEVan being stripped and converted into
> conventional ICE Dodge
> Caravan and I cringed. I read of the Globe-Union
> Fairmont station wagon
> being stripped and scrapped and I cringed again. I
> was told of two unused
> Citicars being canabalized to make a hangar door
> opener. Next I hear of a
> Solectria Force found in a scrap yard with a car
> sitting on top of it and
> the roof crushed in. Then I read of one of the
> Sundancers being turned
> into a carnival ride. Finally there is the pictures
> of EV1 pancakes. All
> this gets a might bit depressing.
>
> No EV should end up like that. Save them all.
>
> I think a privately owned EV1, turning up at various
> green vehicle events,
> would be a constant and powerful reminder of just
> what is possible. That
> is probably one of the the reasons GM will probably
> not back down like Ford
> did. Face it, a Ranger EV looks like any other
> Ranger. An EV1 looks like
> the future. The sad part is while I know for all
> the anti-EV types at GM,
> there had to also has to have been a core group of
> true believers who have
> to be just about in tears to see all their effort
> end up like this. Oh well.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at:
> http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at:
> http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Another point is that in actuality we have a greater
> percentage of electric vehicle racers in relationship
> to the number of EVs on the road than the gas vehicles
> have..
I am happy to stand corrected, Rod! ;^>
> The NEDRA board will be considering a Claimer Class
> and may have something for Woodburn to see just how
> much interest there is.
I don't think anyone could ask for much more.
> From the
> people I have talked to it appears as if everyone who entered
> would all be in the under $5000.00 class. I personally don't
> see how that would advance EV technology.
My hope is that even if technological advancements don't occur in the
$5k class, increased participation and competition in the "low-buck"
classes would result in greater numbers of EV racers and technological
advancements would result in the higher buck classes as people with
deeper pockets get attracted or greater sponsorship interest is
generated (or simply as people get bored with the performance ceiling of
the $5k class, and head for higher classes).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: 100,000 volt DC power supply
> Humm, regarding the hood orniment applications...
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > Is there anyway this could be used for EV R&D purposes?
> >
Just having that box in plain sight with "United Nuclear" visable, plus a
few blue sparks floating around the car! Would be able to park most
everywhere. in any major American ghetto, car wouldn't be touched!! I'd go
for it, but rather spend 150 bux on something more practical, like paying my
electric bill!
Somebody mentioned train warning devices; horns, bells, etc.Horns, we
used to call them whistles in former daze. Todaze stuff runs on 140 psi,
Main Resovoir pressure, or the supply the on board air compresser pumps
things up to. Horns work on the 140 lbs Almost loud enough to be heard
above a Wayland Signiture stereo! Building in a 140 psi air system is doable
on a EV I guess, what's a few more pumps , tanks and motors among friends? I
once had a VW bug in my Detroit daze fitted with a two and a half ton Army
truck horn. They are DAMN LOUD! Had a cute little vacuum pump size air
compressor and a scuba tank under the front hood , to store a little air
away, to give me, maybe a good bone shaking 5 second blast For those
occasions where a beep-beep doesn't hack it. Uh yes, I had a good old OOGA
horn on a EV in Taiwan, Boy! Was THAT effective!! They never heard an OOGA
horn there! JC Whitney still sells these wierd noisemakers, still.
In my Junque collection I hava few old Hancock Chime Whistles I
scavenged from junked lokies, years ago. Horn/whistle is usually the LAST
thing to wear out on a train. They sound like a train, as God intended, the
lonesome multi chime whistle, that gave you the Blues in the Night, Dynah
Shore sang about, before most of ya were born<g>! Now one of these would
sound nice on the hiway! Hysterical point of useless trivia here: When the
New Haven started Diseaselizing, folks complained about the Diesels horn's
racket. "Hey, It doesn't SOUND like a train"The public spirited New Haven
fitted the Diseasels with the above Hancock chime whistle, about when they
did their classic wartime ad" The Kid in Upper Four" Google it, yul get 28
hits<g>! OT a bit, sorry!
Seeya at traintime
Bob
> > http://www.unitednuclear.com/hvsupply.htm
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod, Thanks, thanks, thanks, now that makes a lot of sense. I am using an
old Baldor 72V motor that seems pretty tough. I will remember the "Never
completely remove shunt field power". You said the shunt field voltage is
controlled in parallel with armature control, would not that be the same as
wired for cumulative compound and varying the battery voltage? Wouldn't this
be max shunt field and armature current on take off and then a decrease in
shunt field as I lowered the voltage with the pedal? Would a separate
control for each make much of a difference? I can see I need to experiment
this weekend, thanks again, Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: Compound wound motors
Jack,
I designed compound wound motor controls when
I worked at Caterpillar.
The shunt field had a PWM control to vary field power
and the high current armature control ran the
armature/series field. I think the most cost
effective way at looking at these control methods is
to check out the GE Elec Trak, E15 would be a good
example.
These riding mowers use small relays to switch in
various 10W resistors to control field current.
There are a couple of things you should be carefull
with;
Don't weaken the field to much, you will get
commutator arcing and low efficiency with high
armature current.
You should have the speed torque curves of the motor
in question to make sure this is not an issue.
The simple answer is to test this motor on your
application. NEVER completely remove shunt field
power, you will get huge armature current!. The best
method is to slowly reduce field current and keep the
motor in it's most efficient torque/speed point.
You could use a low current PWM control (like those on
PM motor Ebikes) to control the field current.
Most of the sepex and compound wound motors never
required more than 20 amps on the field.
The shunt field would be connected from battery
positive to the control that is connected to battery
negative.
You can use a Curtis type control for the armature
circuit, but you need to make sure the shunt field
voltage is controlled in parallel with this control.
For example, full field for starting the vehicle and
when it gets up to speed you can reduce field current
to increase speed. When you encounter a hill you need
to increase field current for more torque.
This is best done with a control designed for the job,
but it can be done with seperate controls and
experimenting.
Good luck
Rod
--- Jack Knopf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Actually, I know exactly what the difference is
between a shunt winding and
a series winding is, my motor is hooked up as
cumulative compound , not the
shunt field in parallel with the series field as I
stated. I am looking at
"Build Your Own Electric Vehicle" by Bob Brant right
now and I clearly see
the difference between short shunt(parallel to arm)
and long shunt(parallel
to arm and s winding), and I understand the
difference between differential
compound and cumulative compound. What I don't know
YET, is what will happen
if I : 1. connect the shunt field directly to the
battery and vary the
series field with my controller, as in your link and
the Ward-Leonard
wiring, and 2. vary the shunt field in the opposite
way I vary the series
field. I think number 2 will work better but will
just have to try it. Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Shipway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:43 PM
Subject: Re: Compound wound motors
> You seem to have misunderstood how the shunt
winding differs from the
> series winding.
>
> <teacher mode on>
> The amount of field that each winding produces is
the current times the
> number of turns in the winding.
> Current is Voltage divided by the Resistance of
the coil (I=V/R)
>
> The Shunt winding is made of many turns of fine
wire and is supposed to
> carry a couple amps at full voltage (e.g. 5 amps
@ 48 volts)
> The Series winding is a few turns of fat wire and
is supposed to carry ALL
> the amps that go through the armature, but to only
drop a few volts in
> doing so (e.g. 200 amps at 5 volts, with the other
43 volts dropping
> across the armature).
> Using these admittedly made up numbers you'd have
the following
> resistences:
> Shunt = 48v/5a = 9.6 ohms
> Series=5v/200a= 0.025 ohms
>
> Since you've put the shunt in parallel with the
much smaller resistance
> series winding, there will be the same voltage
across both and most of the
> current will go through the series with the shunt
having only a small
> effect. This may be why you don't see much change
when you connect it
> this way.
>
> Since you where using it on a 42' boat, the
resistance of the water would
> limit the motor speed in series mode, and may mask
small changes in motor
> behavior.
>
> Look at the diagrams on my first link (fig.12-7)
for how a shunt winding
> is expected to be connected, which is in parallel
with the armature (short
> shunt)
> or in parallel with both the armature and the
series winding (which are in
> series with each other).(Long Shunt)
>
> Now to make things more confuzzling, the two
windings don't have to be of
> equal effect.
> It might have a wimpy series winding so that it
mostly behaves well as a
> shunt motor, or it might have a Beefy series
winding so it mostly is
> torquey like a series, but is a little better
behaved (with regards to
> speed regulation).
> <teacher mode off>
>
> I'm not sure how you'd determine which flavor you
have without a
> specification sheet or counting the coils.
> Maybe a good Ohm-meter would help?
>
> You can get more power out of it (at a given RPM
and field strength) the
> same way we do for series motors, increase the
voltage to the armature to
> push more current thru it. This will increase the
current in the series
> winding, increasing the field, but it would not
change the current in the
> shunt field, so it's contribution to the field
remains the same. The two
> fields add together to give the total magnetic
field that the armature get
> to play in. The two windings are usually wound on
the same hunk of iron,
> IIRC.
>
> I know folks often use double the nameplate
voltage as thier peak (and
> pack) voltage on series motors and report good
results. I don't know if
> you'd want to change the voltage on the shunt
field the same way, but I'm
> guessing not. Anyone know for sure?
>
>
>
> Jack Knopf wrote:
>
>> Thanks Lee, you put me on a good train of
thought. I reread the info on
>> compound motors that Michael Shipway pointed me
to, the one with all the
>> math, and what you were saying about reducing the
shunt field current for
>> low rpm HP, which is what I am after, and came to
the conclusion that I
>> am not sure what will happen If I do this your
way or the Ward-Leonard
>> way, which has a fixed shunt field, if I
understand correctly. The info
>> says the Ward-Leonard way is used in elevators
for good starting torque.
>> Right now my shunt field is connected in parallel
to the series field and
>> my controller controls both. I wonder what will
happen if I connect my
>> shunt field directly across the batteries without
control and leave the
>> series field on the controller? The other thing I
want to try is , which
>> runs with your advice , if I understand correctly
is, modify my
>> controller to control both series and shunt
fields so when I press the
>> electric pedal the shunt field is max and the
series field is minimum and
>> they both reverse as the electric pedal is
floored where the shunt field
>> is minimum and the series field is maximum. My
ampmeter and some time
>> this weekend should make me more sure. Thanks for
your time, Jack.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am gonna have to hurry up and do my taxes! I will ask him for more specs
Oh boy...
As a 914 owner myself, I'd have to say that you really need to prod hard
on this car for the rust. A single starter battery that leaks on the
frame will usually wreck a 914 (rusts out the inner wheelhouse); having
12 batteries in a "collector" car would freak me out. I replaced my
914's battery with a 26ah Hawker; they really do rust.
It also looks like he cut into the front of the car (there's something
odd under the bumper) I'm not sure what was done in the midship/rear.
For pictures and description of my (now junked) 914 rustbucket, see
http://www.crystel.com/porsche/914/Greenie/greenmachine.html
Sorry to rain on parade.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod the car has made 500.+ as of feb 10th this year.D.Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich and All,
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maybe you should since it RAN in this week's
> Newsweek. I reread it last
> night, Word for word.
>
> This Guy just told the world About Plug in
> Hybrids... Why this list in not
> feeling the ground shake beneath our feet is hard to
> fathom.
> Most of the world thinks Hybrids are a final save
> all solution. Plug in
> Hybrids with some kind of Fuel support IS the
> solution.
> Of course if you can store all your driving needs, a
> EV pure and simple,
> lets you move with Zero fuel.. but everybody on this
> list already knows
> that....Don't we??
I too thought it was a good article and brought
up some interesting points, ways of thinking about
energy,ect of which the best was plug in Hybrids.
Especially as I'm building a sometimes hybrid EV
just to show off that this is a practical idea. Not to
mention unlimited range for long trips of 100mpg or
better.
>
> was responding to what
> > appeared to me to be a completely ridiculous piece
> of writing nonsense.
> > It seemed so fantastically over the top with it's
> claims and
> > characterizations that I assumed it must be from a
> shill or some fringe
> > author looking to make a name for himself. I
> clearly should have left
> > the personal name calling out of it. I am
> sometimes a bit overly
> > passionate when I come across the media trumpeting
> things that appear to
> > be utter rubbish to me.
Calm down Ken! He is a very good writer and has
very good ideas of how and why to keep us out of wars,
stop feeding terrorists oil money, increasing
economic, national security and stop shipping jobs
overseas and instead make many new ones right here in
the US instead. What's wrong with that especially if
plug in hybrids are a part of that?
> >
> > I just last week attended a symposium at WWU on
> the subject of foreign
> > oil reduction through the use of ethanol and
> methanol (among other
> > options) and the data that was presented painted a
> very different
> > picture than this writer laid out in his article.
Let's take ethanol and the cr-- printed about it.
If you take a bushel of corn, $2.19 on the spot
market today, it makes 2.5 gal of ethanol. But that's
not All and what they leave out convenently!
It also makes about $2.00+ of high quality,
predigested, higher protein, animal feed, 1/2 gal of
corn oil that can be used in diesels plus cow dung
that makes methane and it's waste after that
fertilizer so after selling the byproducts you get the
ethanol for the cost of processing it, about $.30/gal
and from what I hear is selling for $.60/gal in Kansas
or $1.00/gal gasoline energy equivelent! And that
doesn't include the feed or gas making value of the
stalks.
Add to that about 250,000 jobs ethanol made last
yr and another 1,000,000 jobs those job's wages made
that stayed in the US instead of going to corrupt
dictators who sponsor the terrorism against us and
it's truly a great thing.
So stop listening to Prof Pimental's followers
who put out this crap funded by the oil, car companies
and learn a little.
With oil prices back up over $54/bbl today you
better hope they make a lot more of it!!!
If we had done this bigger and earlier, we could
have saved the $300 billion on Iraq we'll spend and
the our soldiers lives, ect.
So Rich it is not cheaper to send in the Marines.
If that cost was in the oil as it should be, about
$1-2/gal more, we would already have ethanol,
biodiesel, jobs, a good economy everywhere and EV's,
plug in hybrids would be widespread.
Instead we get wars, dead soldiers, terrorism,
mounting national debt on our children and corporate
welfare to the largest, richest international oil
companies with record profits in the world coming out
of our pockets!!!
Thanks to our useless energy policies, corporate
welfare, Bush has now killed, over 1500 soldiers as of
yesterday or maimed more Amercians, 34,000, done much
more economic damage, $500 billion, to us than the
terrorist have by far.
Take your pick, wars, death, debt, bad economy or
go with ethanol, biodiesel, plug in hybrids, EV's,
national, economic security?
I'll take the later any day!!
HTH's,
jerry dycus
> I also recently
> > attended a major Green Power conference in Seattle
> that had a number of
> > experts in this field saying many the same things
> as I asserted with the
> > data to back it up.
> >
> > As this entire topic is pretty much off topic for
> this forum, if anyone
> > wants to discuss my views on this subject, please
> contact me back
> > channel.
> >
> > -Ken Trough
> > Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> > http://visforvoltage.com
> > AIM - ktrough
> > FAX - 801-749-7807
> > message - 866-872-8901
> >
>
> I am sure the list Gods are NOT going to slow us
> down when one of the
> largest News Rags on the planet actually mentioned
> Plug in Hybrids.
> Beware that the naysayer.... don't like ethanol....
> I remember most of Idaho
> trying to make EtOH in the 80s from surplus
> potatoes..... I have fond
> memories of the 3 or 4 story reforming Still in the
> Chemical engineering Lag
> at the U of Idaho... in the early 80s. THEY had
> plans to make a LOT Of EtOH.
> Oh yea it was all Glass!!
>
> Right now the world is full of folks preaching 1970
> vintage energy concepts
> and Dogma. They have forgotten that the world is 40
> years older and
> hopefully wiser. Wind was a Joke back then you can
> still see the rusting
> vertical axis turbine just West of Ellensburg, and
> it's almost within sight
> of the monster wind farms of the Yakima Valley.
> Using Standard layout
> horizontal axis blades... One is a nifty 70s
> concept, that didn't work very
> well, the New stuff is monster engineering done with
> serious solid concepts.
> Guess which one made the Big time?
>
> The 300 and 500 miles per gallon, References... are
> to how much Gasoline you
> would use if a Gallon of Fuel only had %15 gasoline
> in it. The writer kinda
> lost the line on this, Even I missed it until the
> second pass through. If I
> had a Plug in Hybrid, and ran 450 miles EV mode, and
> used only 1 gallon of
> gas of that 50 miles running when you came up short
> some lonely night out on
> the highways. Then I would have traveled 500 miles
> on a Gallon of petro
> based fuel. And if that gallon of fuel had even
> less petro base in
> it....you get even more than 500....
>
> The Solutions is with us,and has been for Decades,
> It's just cheaper the
> send in the marines and secure it with force. Or
> just let Exxon do it...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Wouldn't
this
be max shunt field and armature current on take off
and then a decrease
in
shunt field as I lowered the voltage with the pedal?
Would a separate
control for each make much of a difference? I can see
I need to
experiment
this weekend, thanks again, Jack."
Jack,
Yes, max field on take off and lower voltage with the
pedal.
I worked at Baldor for 4 years designing AC induction
controls, unfortanetly I didn't find any of these
motors in the scrap bin for my projects :-)
Go to www.elec-trak.org to find an E15 manual to see
how this riding mower controls the field in a compound
wound motor. This is a very good way to get an
education on compound wound motor control.
I went to this web site and noticed they changed
everything. If you can't find the manual I can send
it offlist.
Rod.
--- Jack Knopf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rod, Thanks, thanks, thanks, now that makes a lot of
> sense. I am using an
> old Baldor 72V motor that seems pretty tough. I will
> remember the "Never
> completely remove shunt field power". You said the
> shunt field voltage is
> controlled in parallel with armature control, would
> not that be the same as
> wired for cumulative compound and varying the
> battery voltage? Wouldn't this
> be max shunt field and armature current on take off
> and then a decrease in
> shunt field as I lowered the voltage with the pedal?
> Would a separate
> control for each make much of a difference? I can
> see I need to experiment
> this weekend, thanks again, Jack.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 7:55 PM
> Subject: Re: Compound wound motors
>
>
> > Jack,
> > I designed compound wound motor controls when
> > I worked at Caterpillar.
> > The shunt field had a PWM control to vary field
> power
> > and the high current armature control ran the
> > armature/series field. I think the most cost
> > effective way at looking at these control methods
> is
> > to check out the GE Elec Trak, E15 would be a good
> > example.
> > These riding mowers use small relays to switch in
> > various 10W resistors to control field current.
> > There are a couple of things you should be
> carefull
> > with;
> > Don't weaken the field to much, you will get
> > commutator arcing and low efficiency with high
> > armature current.
> > You should have the speed torque curves of the
> motor
> > in question to make sure this is not an issue.
> > The simple answer is to test this motor on your
> > application. NEVER completely remove shunt field
> > power, you will get huge armature current!. The
> best
> > method is to slowly reduce field current and keep
> the
> > motor in it's most efficient torque/speed point.
> > You could use a low current PWM control (like
> those on
> > PM motor Ebikes) to control the field current.
> > Most of the sepex and compound wound motors never
> > required more than 20 amps on the field.
> > The shunt field would be connected from battery
> > positive to the control that is connected to
> battery
> > negative.
> > You can use a Curtis type control for the armature
> > circuit, but you need to make sure the shunt field
> > voltage is controlled in parallel with this
> control.
> > For example, full field for starting the vehicle
> and
> > when it gets up to speed you can reduce field
> current
> > to increase speed. When you encounter a hill you
> need
> > to increase field current for more torque.
> > This is best done with a control designed for the
> job,
> > but it can be done with seperate controls and
> > experimenting.
> > Good luck
> > Rod
> > --- Jack Knopf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Actually, I know exactly what the difference is
> >> between a shunt winding and
> >> a series winding is, my motor is hooked up as
> >> cumulative compound , not the
> >> shunt field in parallel with the series field as
> I
> >> stated. I am looking at
> >> "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle" by Bob Brant
> right
> >> now and I clearly see
> >> the difference between short shunt(parallel to
> arm)
> >> and long shunt(parallel
> >> to arm and s winding), and I understand the
> >> difference between differential
> >> compound and cumulative compound. What I don't
> know
> >> YET, is what will happen
> >> if I : 1. connect the shunt field directly to
> the
> >> battery and vary the
> >> series field with my controller, as in your link
> and
> >> the Ward-Leonard
> >> wiring, and 2. vary the shunt field in the
> opposite
> >> way I vary the series
> >> field. I think number 2 will work better but will
> >> just have to try it. Jack.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Michael Shipway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 5:43 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Compound wound motors
> >>
> >>
> >> > You seem to have misunderstood how the shunt
> >> winding differs from the
> >> > series winding.
> >> >
> >> > <teacher mode on>
> >> > The amount of field that each winding produces
> is
> >> the current times the
> >> > number of turns in the winding.
> >> > Current is Voltage divided by the Resistance of
> >> the coil (I=V/R)
> >> >
> >> > The Shunt winding is made of many turns of fine
> >> wire and is supposed to
> >> > carry a couple amps at full voltage (e.g. 5
> amps
> >> @ 48 volts)
> >> > The Series winding is a few turns of fat wire
> and
> >> is supposed to carry ALL
> >> > the amps that go through the armature, but to
> only
> >> drop a few volts in
> >> > doing so (e.g. 200 amps at 5 volts, with the
> other
> >> 43 volts dropping
> >> > across the armature).
> >> > Using these admittedly made up numbers you'd
> have
> >> the following
> >> > resistences:
> >> > Shunt = 48v/5a = 9.6 ohms
> >> > Series=5v/200a= 0.025 ohms
> >> >
> >> > Since you've put the shunt in parallel with the
> >> much smaller resistance
> >> > series winding, there will be the same voltage
> >> across both and most of the
> >> > current will go through the series with the
> shunt
> >> having only a small
> >> > effect. This may be why you don't see much
> change
> >> when you connect it
> >> > this way.
> >> >
> >> > Since you where using it on a 42' boat, the
> >> resistance of the water would
> >> > limit the motor speed in series mode, and may
> mask
> >> small changes in motor
> >> > behavior.
> >> >
> >> > Look at the diagrams on my first link
> (fig.12-7)
> >> for how a shunt winding
> >> > is expected to be connected, which is in
> parallel
> >> with the armature (short
> >> > shunt)
> >> > or in parallel with both the armature and the
> >> series winding (which are in
> >> > series with each other).(Long Shunt)
> >> >
> >> > Now to make things more confuzzling, the two
> >> windings don't have to be of
> >> > equal effect.
> >> > It might have a wimpy series winding so that it
> >> mostly behaves well as a
> >> > shunt motor, or it might have a Beefy series
> >> winding so it mostly is
> >> > torquey like a series, but is a little better
> >> behaved (with regards to
> >> > speed regulation).
> >> > <teacher mode off>
> >> >
> >> > I'm not sure how you'd determine which flavor
> you
> >> have without a
> >> > specification sheet or counting the coils.
> >> > Maybe a good Ohm-meter would help?
> >> >
>
=== message truncated ===
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James, try this, make a controller by using stainless steel plates slowly
dipped into a salt water solution. Parts available from Wal-Mart. The more
surface area on your plates, the more amps. I have used this at both 48 and
96 volts. 400 plus amps on take off and good smooth acceleration. There is
no doubt in my mind that I could build a 2000 amp controller this way. Have
not tried it with a series motor, just my old compound wound. The pedal is
mechanically connected to pivot arm that lowers the plates into the salt
water. One thing though, the chemical engineers say I have Chlorine and
Hydrogen Gas floating around. They disagree on the amount. Some say I should
be dead, some don't see a problem as long as it is vented. Have fun, Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: Why bother saving factory EV's???? Cheap EV's and CAREFUL!!!!!
You know, this sounds like something I might like to try. I used to own
an old
VW Beetle, and there is a guy near my folks that works on nothing but old
VWs.
I bet I could get a mechanically sound one for very little money without
an engine.
I like the idea of a contactor controller too. The problem with this is I
can't
for the life of me find anyplace to buy contactors that could handle 72 -
96v
and a reasonable enough amp load for a small ev that aren't so expensive
as to
be almost as much as a cursit. Am I missing something?
James
Quoting jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
I'd go with the Steve Clunn method of making your
own adaptor like putting an extension on the trans
input shaft if nessasary, I don't know what it looks
like, and drill a hole in the plate to fit it exactly,
then just drill out the bell housing holes.
After that centered on that hole and drill the
motors mounting bolts for it from a paper pattern.
Then mount it direct to the input shaft with a Love
Joy or other coupler connector. This will only cost
under $100 or less if you use 1/2" alum plate. You
could get by with thinner. Use a 100-150 amp series
motor you can get for under $400 surplus or used.
Or do the center pulley thing like the website
mentioned did and with 2 golf cart motors and 8mm cog
belts.
I'd go with 72vdc pack of Trojan 27tmh 12v or
t105-125's or US batt versions for longer range if
needed charged with a 36vdc charger modified for 72vdc
if using an E controller or my favorite, a contactor
controller and charge them in parallel at 36vdc. By
series/parallel both the batts and the motors you get
3 speeds and 4 gears plus reverse.
This will get you a true 50mph and about 20 mile
range with the 12vdc batt pack and probably 50 miles
with the t125 pack. YMMV
And do it for around $700-1200 for the EV parts
depending on how well you can scrounge. And be a much
better EV than the one from the website.
>
> It's a great idea, but I don't know enough about
> this particular kit to
> say whether it actually works or is junk.
>
> As you say, the old VW Beetles are an attractive
> "glider" due to their
> simplicity. They are small and light, which scales
> down all the EV parts
> needed, to keep the price low. If all you are
> striving for is NEV type
> performance, it could indeed be a very simple and
> inexpensive
> conversion.
>
> I'm trying to imagine the "typical" person that
> wants to try an EV
> conversion (if there is such a thing! :-) I see
> someone who is:
>
> - sick and tired of the high cost of driving
> - has serious environmental or political concerns
> with our present
> imported-oil-based transportation system
> - has a reasonable amount of mechanical skill
> - likes "tinkering" with things to get them to work
> - actually enjoys being a bit "different" from
> others
> - already has an old car they would like convert
>
> Now, what is stopping them from actually doing an EV
> conversion?
>
> - doesn't have much money
> - no good place to work on it
> - lack of knowledge
> - knows very little about EV parts
> - fear of failure
>
> The EV list goes a long way towards addressing these
> concerns. I think
> once a person discovers the EV list, it goes a
> *long* way towards
> encouraging them to proceed. Information is POWER!
>
> But, the EV list isn't very good at providing
> *complete* information.
> People are more likely to say "This is how I did it"
> rather than
> describe "How *you* can do it" in sufficient detail
> so a beginner
> actually *can* do it. Good directions are difficult
> to write!
>
> A good conversion kit helps a lot, but they are only
> available for a few
> specific vehicles. And (wouldn't you know it) many
> potential builders
> don't happen to have (or are not interested in)
> those vehicles.
>>
> I wonder if a motor coupler and adapter plate might
> be able to be
> fashioned with similar techniques. Something a "guy
> in his garage" could
> make with hand tools. Perhaps by using the vehicle's
> existing engine
> block and crankshaft end as patterns (cut 'em off
> with a torch or
> sawsall and use them?)
NO!!!! At least not on a VW Bug as they are made
from magnesium!!!!! Alway be careful especially when
cutting, grinding as it can explode!!! One kid in
Sarasota did this with a grinder and the grinded bits
ignited and badly burned INTO his face!
And diffinently not using a torch!!
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> The goal is to provide sufficiently detailed
> instructions, that do not
> require too many special skills or tools, and with
> sources and prices
> for parts, so that a reasonable person can look it
> over and say, "Yes! I
> can do that!"
> --
> "The two most common elements in the universe
> are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You guys wanna discuss our points of view on evtech? This is probably
boring to the EVDL.
Seth
On Mar 2, 2005, at 6:17 PM, Lee Hart wrote: (more on SiC Schottkys)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can see this from another angle , if you feel your $10k worth of parts is
worth $50k then you will have to race agents other's that feel there cars
are worth the same . I don't think Dave meant you had to sell if for the
price of the parts , you set the price but then have to race in that price
group . So you just pick a price that you would be happy with , and race in
that group , . There won't be anybody racing $10 worth of parts in a $10 k
class , unless they just want to get rid of the car, or take a chance . So
for "having to sell it " that only happens if somebody wants to buy it and
will pay the price you set on it
stave Clunn .
Ken Trough wrote:
What makes a vehicle go faster is more money, not more voltage.
Dragster class might have something like 6 divisions: $5K, $10K, $20K,
$50, $100K, Unclaimable. For example, it you entered your vehicle in
the $10K category, you would have to sell it at the end of the event for
that price.
No offense to Dave Cloud, but this has got to be the most ill conceived
idea for classes I have ever heard! So if I sink $5K into an electric
motorcycle and race it at a NEDRA event, I have to sell it for $5K at the
end of the day?!? Ridiculous! I've probably got far MORE than $5K worth
of labor into the unit, not to mention the fact that I just MIGHT like to
race it more than one day.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear NPR Day2Day: ( re. interview from Geneva 3/3/05)
Previous to going "GA-Ga" over alt.Fuel Vehicles, mainly BEV's (Battery
powered EVs) our family had a GM dealership here in Seattle for 45
years. I know my way around a car, a garage, and the 'biz'. With the
way the world is going, and the environment, what possible relevance do
$$ Million Dollar Cars $$ have to us every day folks out here in Radio
Land !! ??? Where could you possible drive one of them - unless that
is, you kept it in FIRST GEAR !!!
Im sure there were more than ONE hybrid at the show. Not to mention a
few BEV's using new Li.-Ion Batteries. I know of many with over 200
miles of RANGE at FREEWAY SPEED using these super light, super energy
dense batteries. Now if we could only talk GM, Ford, Honda or Toyota to
get away from the H2 craze, and build an inexpensive freeway capable
Battery Electric Vehicle ( before the Chinese DO !!! )
Course it would help if the Auto Media stopped talking HORSEPOWER,
Million Dollar Cars, and SPEED, and talked High Tech, High Performance,
and High Efficiency and really... How far CAN YOU go on
2 Dollars of Energy.
Yours Truly - and still listening...
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
