EV Digest 4159
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: TIG welding using an alternator
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: PM w/ separate lead for each brush?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Insight aerodynamics (was GM Starts Hauling Away the First of 78
EV1s)
by Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Wife hates smelly flooded batteries.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) 600 volt AC S10
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Iota DLS series
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Why bother saving factory EV's???? Cheap EV's and CAREFUL!!!!!
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery Desulfation of Lead Acid Batteries s
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Why bother saving factory EV's???? Cheap EV's and CAREFUL!!!!!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: PM w/ separate lead for each brush?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Iota DLS series
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Why bother saving factory EV's???? Cheap EV's and CAREFUL!!!!!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Battery Desulfation of Lead Acid Batteries s
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EV1 Vigil - Call GM Director of Communications Chris Preuss
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Las Vegas NEDRA Wicked Watts Head Count
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EV-1's and Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Fw: Auto transport trains in Europe
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Fw: Railroad - or roller coaster?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: 600 volt AC S10
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Introduction
by "dmarks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) AC welder available, was Re: TIG welding using an alternator
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) Re: Emeter question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If anyone is in or near Riceville TN and wants to get into TIG welding, I
have a friend there that has an older AIRCO air cooled unit for sale that he
said he only wants 200 for when i talked to him last week. Contact me OL if
you want me to put you in touch. Not mine, just passing this along in case
an EVer is interested.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 3:24 PM
Subject: TIG welding using an alternator
With all this talk as of late about alternators, here is a thread with
extensive talk about a particular alternator:
http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8872
There used to be lots of pics, but the board crashed and the pics got
lost.
Alternator in question:
http://www.alternatorparts.com/Ford_3G.htm
Since TIG welders are expensive, this might be a low cost way to weld
up battery racks or boxes. Or rent a MIG welder from Home Depot..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is cheaper and more robust that internal interconnects. I have several
motors like that as well.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Shipway" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 9:00 PM
Subject: PM w/ separate lead for each brush?
> I just encountered a new thing.
> A small (2 hp) DC permanent magnet(field) motor with 4 power leads, 2
> red and 2 black.
> I determined that each lead connected to only one of the 4 brushs, with
> no internal connections between opposing brushs.
>
> Connecting both reds to plus and both backs to minus makes the motor
> spin in the direction expected, as does connecting one of each.
>
> Question is, why are the 4 leads instead of 2?
> Under what circumstances would you want to connect it differently?
>
> Only thing I can think of is if you connect the inside red and black
> together and outside red to plus, outside black to minus, you'd be
> putting the armature in series with itself.
> I was unwilling to try this without drawing it on paper first, or better
> yet asking the list.
>
> Mike Shipway
> Puzzled...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure the Insight will quite catch the EV1, but as the most
efficient car you can actually buy, it comes pretty close.
I also rented a (Panasonic lead-acid) EV1 and drove it from LA to UC
Santa Barbara, about 100 miles one way.
I've also converted an Insight, and have been driving it for about 2
years. The underbody has composite panels under most of the bottom, but
there is a part down the middle where the hot tailpipe was that is not
covered. So there is definitely a bit more areodynamic gain to be had.
While I'm using the orginal radiator for water cooling for the motor and
inverter, I could block off most of it--only the size of a motorcyle
radiator is needed. I bet a tail would make it better as well.
While I haven't done much driving at freeway speeds (most so far has
been 65 mph), I'm very pleased with the efficiency. It gets about 6-8
mi/kwh for normal driving 35-45 mph. About 5 mi/kwh at 55 mph, and
almost 10 mi/kwh driving around the block at school zone speeds (20-25
mph).
I'm trying to keep it light as I convert it. The biggest problem is the
low weight capacity. However, as far as efficiency, its among the best.
I think only John Bryan's VW Ghia does better.
Gary
From: "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon Mar 7, 2005 12:32 am
Subject: Re: GM Starts Hauling Away the First of 78 EV1s
It may not be as bad as you first think. The Insight needs a lot of air
flowing through it for the ICE. Close up the front grill opening and add a
belly pan and the Cd should come down quite a bit. I've thought the Insight
would be an excellent start for an EV-1 clone. However, I would need more
than 2 seats to justify doing my own conversion. Has anyone done an Insight
conversion yet? Real world numbers?
Dave Davidson
Glen Burnie, Maryland
1993 Dodge TEVan
>Maybe have a look at the Honda Insight. I've think it's pretty much as
good
>as a EV-1 for a conversion platform. Plus you can buy one new still.
>
>I have not compared frontal CDA numbers for both, I think it would be an
>interesting comparison. Now there are a couple cars that would be great in
>the EV calculator!
>
>Lets see, a quick webs search gets this:
>The EV-1 numbers are 0.19 Cd and 1.89 sq.m for a CDA of 0.359.
>Insight numbers of 0.25 and 1.9 sq for a CdA of 0.475.
>
>Shucks it's not as close as I thought. I had always assumed the EV-1 was
>larger outside than the Insight, I guess I was wrong..
>Still, I think the Insight has the potential for a very efficient EV.
>
>Interesting table of top CD numbers here:
>http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/aero/tech_aero.htm
>
>--
>-Otmar-
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Mar 2005 at 10:53, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I get that "battery smell" at the end of charge with my flooded pack.
As others have posted, I think you are overcharging. I also suspect you
may have a questionable module in the pack, despite the fact that they're
relatively new. Have you checked individual module voltages under load?
> I went 15 miles yesterday and the pack was below 50%
Are you sure your SOC meter is right? Have you measured the battery SG?
Voltage can be misleading. Again, there's the possibility of a bum module
in pack.
You may also have a dragging brake, underinflated tires, tight wheel
bearings, insane toe setting, etc. You should be able to push the vehicle
on level ground with one hand. Can you?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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Republicans have perfectly nice manners, normal hair,
pleasant smiles, good deodorants; but when it comes down
to cases, you do not want them to be monitoring your oxygen
flow. They will set it to the minimum required to sustain basic
brain function, and then they will recite a little prayer for you.
-- Garrison Keillor
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Playing with the numbers:
Orbitals weighing 40lbs each and costing $100 a piece.
50 of them at 600 volts weighing 2000 lbs costing $5000.
Each orbital having 300 Wh? If so..
Range at 250 Wh/mile: 60 miles
Range at 150 Wh/mile: 100 miles
I think they will fit in a 4' by 6' pickup bed if they are 10" long
and 7" wide. 5 rows of 10.
Range is good... How about the performance? I'd be very disappointed
if it was very slow..
What is most likely going to be the max amps the big AC motors are
going to be able too take as soon as higher amp inverters are
available?
650v Siemens 4WS24 motor specs:
http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm
Elfa 650v inverter specs:
http://www.metricmind.com/inverter.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim, It uses high frequency transformers and works off DC as well. They
were one of our sponsors on "Gone Postal". We run their 240 volt input unit.
It works very well.
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV-List-Post" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 8:31 PM
Subject: Iota DLS series
Rod,
I'm assuming from your post that the Iota will
work with a DC input? The specs @ the Iota page
specify AC input from 108V to 132, 47 to 63HZ. I'm
looking for a DC to DC for my truck right now as well.
Thanks for the info.
TiM
'61 Corvair Rampdide
'80 Jet 007
Claudio, Todd has been out of business for several
years. Go to
http://store.solar-electric.com/bach1.html and order
the Iota DLS-30.
This is a very similar product and of high quality for
less money.
$147.00.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
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--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Mar 2005 at 13:04, Dave wrote:
> So making a controller with the 2
> plates and the salt water tank is only for AC?
I don't think you could really use such a "controller" to satisfactorily
drive an AC motor. As far as I know, AC motors require changes in the
frequency of the power source to change speed. However, those on the list
more acquainted with motor design can correct any errors in that statement
and/or elaborate on it.
This "controller" is essentially a giant rheostat. It's cheap and fairly
simple, but those are about its only virtues. It would be hard to keep it
from being messy, I'd expect reliability to be an issue, and it's woefully
inefficient. As mentioned, it also generates chlorine.
Resistive controllers (using resistors, not saltwater!) used to be common in
golf cars. They've given way to PWM controllers because they waste a
dismaying amount of energy as heat. With a contactor or PWM controller,
this energy would be driving the vehicle. With a variable resistor (or
switchable resistor array) energy is just thrown away.
I think an EV hobbyist would be better served to buy an older used PWM
controller rather than hacking up something like this.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
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As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents,
more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some
great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach
their hearts' desire at last, and the White House will be
adorned by a downright moron.
-- H L Mencken, 1920
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry dycus wrote:
> I want to enter a desulfator of a lightbulb and
> a bridge rect from 120vac and want to know the best
> way to do it. How long and when to stop?
By "desulfator" I assume you just mean "charger". Charging *is*
desulfating, since the charging reaction converts lead sulfate into lead
oxide and metallic lead.
> I was thinking connect it up with 1 wt/amphr
> lightbulb and run it until the voltage reached 18vdc
> per 12vdc nom batt. Would this be the way?
A good 12v battery would never reach 18v. 15v yes; 16v maybe under
extraordinary conditions, but 18v only if it is damaged or bad.
But, I think your basic idea is ok. You *can* wire a light bulb and a
bridge rectifier in series, and use it to charge any battery or pack
voltage up to a 144vdc string. The light bulb sets the current
(watts/120v = amps, i.e. a 60w light bulb will charge at 0.5 amps).
Just remember that this is a trickle charger -- it will deliver this
current *forever*, and (eventually) overcharge the batteries.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave wrote:
> So making a controller with the 2 plates and the salt water tank
> is only for AC?
Correct. If you do it with DC, you will generate chlorine gas!
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Shipway wrote:
> I just encountered a new thing. A small (2 hp) DC permanent
> magnet motor with 4 power leads, 2 red and 2 black. I determined
> that each lead connected to only one of the 4 brushs, with no
> internal connections between opposing brushs.
> Question is, why are there 4 leads instead of 2?
> Under what circumstances would you want to connect it differently?
There are several ways to wind a motor's armature. Some only require 2
brushes for a 4-pole motor; others require all 4. But they almost always
provide 4 brushes, just for reasons of symmetry and balance. You then
connect the opposite pairs in parallel, just as you've described
(red-red, and black-black). Having 4 wires has the minor advantage of
increasing the symmetry by having exactly the same resistance for each
brush.
Or, it is possible that you have a rotary converter, with two *isloated*
pairs of windings. If this is the case, it will have *two* commutators.
And, an ohmmter would tell you that the two pairs of wires are *not*
connected.
It may also be a servomotor, where precision speed control was a design
goal. For this, one pair of wires is for power, and the other just to
sense the back emf externally without the voltage drop caused by the
brushes.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been using on in my truck at 150v ,
steve clunn
Rod,
I'm assuming from your post that the Iota will
work with a DC input? The specs @ the Iota page
specify AC input from 108V to 132, 47 to 63HZ. I'm
looking for a DC to DC for my truck right now as well.
Thanks for the info.
TiM
'61 Corvair Rampdide
'80 Jet 007
Claudio, Todd has been out of business for several
years. Go to
http://store.solar-electric.com/bach1.html and order
the Iota DLS-30.
This is a very similar product and of high quality for
less money.
$147.00.
Roderick
Roderick Wilde, President, EV Parts Inc.
Your Online EV Superstore
www.evparts.com
1-360-385-7082
Phone: 360-582-1270 Fax: 360-582-1272
PO Box 834, Carlsborg, WA 98324
108-B Business Park Loop, Sequim, WA 98382
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
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--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> I don't think you could really use such a "controller" to
> satisfactorily drive an AC motor. As far as I know, AC motors
> require changes in the frequency of the power source to change
> speed.
No, they do not. If you simply reduce the voltage to an AC induction
motor (by whatever means) but keep the frequency the same, it slows
down. There are *lots* of examples of variable-speed AC motors in your
home that do this; fans, furnace blowers, etc. Yes, the efficiency
stinks. But it's cheap, and most people don't know or care.
A real resistor is rare, unless it's a heating appliance of some sort
(so the resistor was already there for "free"). More commonly, they use
phase control (like a ceiling fan), or the motor is built with extra
inductive windings that can be jumpered or switched in series (like a
furnace blower).
> This "controller" is essentially a giant rheostat. It's cheap and
> fairly simple, but those are about its only virtues. It would be
> hard to keep it from being messy, I'd expect reliability to be an
> issue, and it's woefully inefficient. As mentioned, it also
> generates chlorine. Resistive controllers... waste a dismaying
> amount of energy as heat.
About the only time such a controller might be justified is when you
need an adjustable resistor that can burn up a lot of heat. Maybe
because you *want* the heat for something. Or, just for testing, such as
a load resistor to discharge a battery pack.
Also, if we think about it, we can probably find something other than
salt to throw in the water to improve its conductivity that won't
produce toxic or flammable gases.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just ran across a article on sulfation in
www://www.batteryfaq.org/carfaq16.htm
For Heavy Salvation, it states to replace the old electrolyte with distilled
water and let stand for one hour. Apply a constant current at four amps at 13.8
VDC until there is no additional rise in specific gravity, remove the
electrolyte, wash the sediment out, replace with fresh electrolyte and
recharge. If the specific gravity exceeds 1.300, then remove the electrolyte,
wash the sediment out, and start over from the beginning with distilled water.
You might have to increase the voltage in order to break down the hard lead
sulfate crystals. If the battery gets above 125 F, then stop charging and slow
the battery to cool down.
Discharge to 50 % the battery several times and test capacity. The sulfate
crystals are soluble in water then in electrolyte. As these crystals are
dissolved, the sulfate is converted back into sulfuric acid and the specific
gravity rises.
A Constant Voltage Chargers does better then desulfators or pulse chargers in
preventing sulfation.
It is best to size the battery to your EV, so it would never discharge below
80%!!. This is what I do. I have 260 AH batteries, and it takes me week to
discharge to below 80%. A lot of times, I may recharge at 85 to 90% with a
PFC-50 at 50 amps for a very short time which the temperature never goes above
80 degrees at ambient temperature of 60 degrees and holding the voltage at a
constant rating while the ampere drops to prevent any bubbling.
After 4 years of this type of charging, my batteries are still in with 0.02
volts of each other!!
Before the PFC-50 I had a on board 100 amp pulsematic charger that takes
directly off 120 or 240 volts single phase or 208 or 250 volts three phase
commercial power. This charger is so violent, when turn way up, it would
mechanical pulse the whole car.
Roland
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 3:14 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Desulfation of Lead Acid Batteries s
jerry dycus wrote:
> I want to enter a desulfator of a lightbulb and
> a bridge rect from 120vac and want to know the best
> way to do it. How long and when to stop?
By "desulfator" I assume you just mean "charger". Charging *is*
desulfating, since the charging reaction converts lead sulfate into lead
oxide and metallic lead.
> I was thinking connect it up with 1 wt/amphr
> lightbulb and run it until the voltage reached 18vdc
> per 12vdc nom batt. Would this be the way?
A good 12v battery would never reach 18v. 15v yes; 16v maybe under
extraordinary conditions, but 18v only if it is damaged or bad.
But, I think your basic idea is ok. You *can* wire a light bulb and a
bridge rectifier in series, and use it to charge any battery or pack
voltage up to a 144vdc string. The light bulb sets the current
(watts/120v = amps, i.e. a 60w light bulb will charge at 0.5 amps).
Just remember that this is a trickle charger -- it will deliver this
current *forever*, and (eventually) overcharge the batteries.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget your perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen, from "Anthem"
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Marc for calling!
We've had a run in with Mr. Preuss before.
Last year, Charlie Garlow, our EVA/DC VP, wrote an editorial about GM and
the EV-1 in the Washington Post.
Charlie's editorial said GM should spend more of its money on EV development
instead of hiring high priced lawyers to fight the CA ZEV mandate.
Mr. Preuss must have choked on his morning coffee when he read that, because
that morning he found our website and emailed us a scathing letter telling
us we should know better and gave us the same usual excuses for not selling
the EV-1.
If I can find the letter I'll post it.
So thanks for calling Mr. Preuss. It will prove to him we aren't letting up
on our stand to save the EV-1.
I will be posting more GM contact information including snail mail addresses
soon.
Thanks again Marc!!
Chip Gribben
Save the EV-1 hat on
http://www.saveev1.com
On 3/7/05 12:18 AM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 10:13:11 -0800
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: EV1 Vigil - Call GM Director of Communications Chris Preuss
>
> Thanks for that phone # Chip. I've called.
>
> Marc Geller
> San Francisco Electric Vehicle Assn.
> www.sfeva.org
>
> On Mar 6, 2005, at 5:54 AM, Chip Gribben wrote:
>
>> Let's flood Mr Preus voice mail so when he returns to work on Monday
>> his messages will be filled with support for the EV-1
>>
>> Chris Preuss, Director of GM Communication, Washington DC.
>>
>> (202) 775-5008
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Chip Gribben
>> Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC
>> http://www.evadc.org
>>
>> Save the EV1
>> http://www.saveev1.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's cool Gadget!
So far, Brigham Young University will be there with their ultra capacitor
powered EV-1.
NEDRA VP, Brian Hall will be there with his record setting bikes.
Brent and Ken Singleton will be racing with their record setting electric jr
dragster.
William Keuhl will be racing his NEDRA record breaking Pontiac Fiero.
I think Richard plans to race his RX7 but may have some battery issues with
it.
There are some folks flying in from California to spectate.
That's what I know off hand. We'll know more towards the end of March.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
On 3/7/05 12:18 AM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2005 11:17:05 -0800 (PST)
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Las Vegas NEDRA Wicked Watts Head Count
>
> Gadget will be there with camera and crew. we would
> like to get some footage to use in our upcoming pilot.
> I'd love to know who's going.
>
> Gadget
> --- Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> Hey everyone,
>>
>> There's been a lot of discussion about NEDRA classes
>> lately but now its time
>> to start doing some racing!
>>
>> Our NEDRA Season opener will be at Las Vegas April
>> 9. Just a month away.
>>
>> We need a head count of who is going.
>>
>> Please respond to Stan Hanel, Richard Furniss or
>> myself if you plan to race
>> or visit.
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>> So dust off those battery caps and get on out to Las
>> Vegas April 9.
>>
>> Chip Gribben
>> NEDRA hat on
>> http://www.nedra.com
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Hi EVerybody;
Been following the EV-1 Vigil-ers EVery day. What a great, fine job these
folks are doing. They are getting some publicity, I guess?? I'm NOT a TV
watcher, so I havent seen anything here in CT about it. Has it made national
TV, squeezed in between "Ask your docter about........" and SUV ads? Been
covered nicely on the Net, though! Only a few clicks away.
The much mentioned Batteries and Motors thing here in CT at the Foxwoods
Casino went off as planned. About 40 interesting , interested folks showed up
at the Pequat Museum and Research Center, ajoining the Casino. IMHO the Indian
Museum is in itself, eworth the trip to Foxwoods , EVen if you never pull the
handle of a slot machine. a money-was-no-object beautiful building, doing
passive solar heating and lighting, tells the real story of the Indian, or
Native American story, here in the East.
Sad to say Key People that were to show up didn't, the CT Biz folks were to
toute the availabilabilty of State of the Art motors and batteries...Duh! I was
surprised that so much stuff existed. A Cart Co was to show its wares, a no
show. Sigh! Wanted to make a point that the Sunrise car was languishing in a
wherehouse in Boston, waiting for a few million bucks to be thrown it's way. IF
James Worden would want to carry on with it? The Native Americans wanted to DO
something with that Casino money. Gees! I could root for the Indians on our own
turf!! But could they pull it off? Nobody, other than I had EVen HEARD of
Solectria and the Sunrise. All I wanted to do was sort of plant a seed or idea
into somebodies mind. Gee! We could DO something. Again, well, here I go,
again. Politics raised it's ugly head, mention of the movie "Tucker, the Man
and his Dream" It was diss-cusse at length the CARB situation in CA and on and
on. I will follow up on a few leads, but it takes BIG bux and politics on OUR
side. Agreed, that NO gas or 10bux a gal gas BY appointment, rationing , you
older folks remember ration cards, during WW2, I'm an old fart but NOT that
old, was a hand held portable model then, but family fotos show the Bantam car
with the windshield sticker. THAT dates me, a Bantam? Yes, Virginia there WERE
Bantams! Tiny cars built in PA ,I think?Uncle had one, when he was in the Navy.
Back to the story: A nice afternoon but I don't know HOW you can put this
together, other than having Osama's money, to pull it off. I feel that the
Native Americans are Good Folks and hit up the right way, could join our
movement. But a recent example comes to mind. They wanted to build and run a
Hyspeed ferry servive to NYC from Foxwoods, right on the CT's Thames River, a
quick , maybe 2 hour drive, by Hydrofoil jet job ferry. OK, they, the Pequots?
I think, built a shipyard in a depressed part of CT built several Ferries to
run the servive. They are beauties, look like they are doing 60 mph standing
still! I pass them, tied up at New London, next to the RR, seems that they, Fox
Navigation, they called it, couldn't pull permits to land in NYC. Trump
interests took care of that! HE has casinoes in NJ, we can't have CT ones
closer, timewise. So I would imagine the Native Americans that- were- here
-first, are/were bummed out about that, would be stepping VERY carefully into
any new biz ventures. Especially a very political thing like EVs.They would be
stepped on AGAIN very heavily by the White Guyz!
My take on the weekend thing I went to. It was interesting to chat up the
rather diverse folks that DID show up.
Seeya
Bob
PS Hey! Nobody here bought the White Planes EV's? Really!!? Poor folks
going it UNlisted into EV's ? Hope they show up here to show an' tell!
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Hi EVer's Thought you might like to see moving cars electrically means
in Europe, especially German speaking folks, but the pix are in English<g>!
Seeya in training!
Bob
Subject: Auto transport trains in Europe
> Came across these pics in "misc.transport.rail.americas", showing auto
rack
> trains in Europe. But look what they're using to haul them. Some of them
are
> the same basic design as the NJ Rail ALP-46's.
>
> <http://www.privatbahn.info/images/photos/nebahn/netlog/185512_txl_c.jpg>
> <http://www.privatbahn.info/images/photos/nebahn/netlog/185537_txl_h.jpg>
> <http://www.zu-den-zuegen.de/seiten/tauri/tauri6.htm>
> <http://www.zu-den-zuegen.de/seiten/tauri/tauri1.htm>
> <http://www.zu-den-zuegen.de/seiten/145er/71.htm>
> <http://www.zu-den-zuegen.de/seiten/145er/72.htm>
> <http://www.privatbahn.info/images/photos/nebahn/netlog/185511_txl_c.jpg>
>
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Hi All;
More cool RR stuff, electric, of course!
Subject: Railroad - or roller coaster?
> Pic from the German "ICE train" attached.
>
> Also, how'd you like to work in _this_ engine compartment?
> (check the link):
>
<http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/de/electric/emu/ICE/ICE-3/cab%2Binterior/I
CE3_Lounge_NBS.jpg>
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YEEEAAAHHHAA! It MUST bew an optical disallusion. on a rainy day it would
be too slick getting UP there, but a hoot coming down, though!Obviously they
don't run 200 car coal trains there!
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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I think (anybody, please correct me if I am wrong) that Peukerts equation is
specific to lead acid batteries.
We can try and ignore this and do a Pseudo Peukerts but I am not sure how
useful it
will be.
Let's take a look at some published Kokam data on their other Li-Poly
batteries. At http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
under SLB603870H, there is a zip file that charts information for their high
capacity 1.5 amp-hr cell used in R/C planes.
The information is in terms of capacity but we can translate it. Time X
current = amp-hrs
If .5 C provides 1.6 amp-hrs, then that translates as .75 amps for 128
minutes.
If 3 C provides 1.49 amp-hrs, then that translates as 4.5 amps for 19.9
minutes.
If 5 C provides 1.44 amp-hrs, then that translates as 7.5 amps for 11.5
minutes.
If 7 C provides 1.36 amp-hrs, then that translates as 10.5 amps for 7.8
minutes.
If 10 C provides .99 amp-hrs, then that translates as 15 amps for 4.0
minutes.
Using the Peukerts calc at http://www.geocities.com/hempev/Battery.html
.5 C to 3C Peukert's exponent 1.04 and Peukert's capacity 1.58 amp-hrs
3C to 5C Peukert's exponent 1.07 and Peukert's capacity 1.67 amp-hrs
5C to 7 C Peukert's exponent 1.15 and Peukert's capacity 1.96 amp-hrs
7C to 10C Peukert's exponent 1.87 and Peukert's capacity 10.62 amp-hrs
.5C to 10C Peukert's exponent 1.16 and Peukert's capacity 1.53 amp-hrs
There seems to be pretty substantial differences. How accurate would this
be?
Anyway, if it might help, here is ProEV's data:
Keep in mind we only tested a single battery of each type. Different cells
could vary.
For the 70 amp/hr (at 1 C) rated Kokam, we have 70 amp discharge for 60.8
minutes and 700 amps for 5.2 minutes.
This gives us a Pseudo Peukerts capacity of 94.653 and Pseudo Peukerts
exponent of 1.068.
For the 40 amp-hr (at 1C) rated Kokam, we have 40 amp discharge for 60
minutes and 400 amp for 5.62 minutes.
This gives us a Pseudo Peukerts capacity of 44.420 and Pseudo Peukerts
exponent of 1.028
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
Definitely would want to race with the Kokams - I added some of these
specs to
my battery page off of http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html -
if I
had an idea of a Peukert's exponent, I'd even have them in the calculator
itself.
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> What is most likely going to be the max amps the big AC motors are going
to be able too take as soon as higher amp inverters are available?
On the specs you cited, it says the max current for the inverter is 564
Amps. On the motor spec is says max current is 400 Amps. So the max
current would be 400 Amps. This would be Power = Volts * Amps = 600V * 400A
= 240,000 Watts. Or 322 Horsepower. That's a lot of electrical power
available.
If you get all the specs for the EV set up (frontal area, weight, wheel
radius, gear ratios), you can plug it into one of the EV calculators or
spreadsheets. It will tell you lots about your car.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: March 6, 2005 9:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: 600 volt AC S10
Playing with the numbers:
Orbitals weighing 40lbs each and costing $100 a piece.
50 of them at 600 volts weighing 2000 lbs costing $5000.
Each orbital having 300 Wh? If so..
Range at 250 Wh/mile: 60 miles
Range at 150 Wh/mile: 100 miles
I think they will fit in a 4' by 6' pickup bed if they are 10" long and 7"
wide. 5 rows of 10.
Range is good... How about the performance? I'd be very disappointed if it
was very slow..
What is most likely going to be the max amps the big AC motors are going to
be able too take as soon as higher amp inverters are available?
650v Siemens 4WS24 motor specs:
http://www.metricmind.com/motor.htm
Elfa 650v inverter specs:
http://www.metricmind.com/inverter.htm
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Hi, I am David Marks I applied for and recieved a listing to recieve and
exchange information concerning the design and various features required to
produce a marketable Electrical Engined Vehical. At present we are
concentrating on methods to increase the range by supplemental means such as a
Turbogenerater harvesting the wind flow. I am a Graduate Marine Enginer Kings
Point United States Merchant Marine Academy. Class of '42. I retired in 1987
with 40 years of Pension credits. This includes active duty service in the
U.S. Navy and the U.S. Maritime Commision As an Assoc.Proffesser of Engineering
and Mathmatics. After WW2 (The Big One) I went to work in the Areo Space
industry primarily in the field of Pick up devices such as presure,
displacement acceleration and force transducers. During this time I was
fortunate to be working for and with men who were in the Manhattan Project.
Where the basic knowlege of these products was studied and developed to aid in
the development of a don't stand too close or touch product. I returned to my
first love the sea and seagoing vessels in the mid 60's My experience in
Electrical propultion includes Turbo Electric drive systems. Vessel types such
as the T-3 Tanker developed in the early 40's A>C> 3phase variable frequency
drive main drive sychronous direct coupled electric drive motor. Prime mover a
8500 HP Cross coupled Steam turbine driving a 3Phase AC Generator through a
three step reduction gear. Auxillaries were powered by 220 volt dc turbogens
witch also suplied the Main drive generator excitation. At present I do
consucting and training of key personell for a fish processing co in Alaska. I
became very interested in energy conservation when I noted the wastfull rutines
enforced by FDA and was able to design a waste heat recovery system that has
reduced fuel costs by just over 1/3 34% to be more exact and am expecting FDA
approval this spring. The Fish processor has a converted Diesel electric drive
ex Coast Guard Buoy tender Ice breaker in service which requires my presence to
show the engineers how to operate same. The turn over in Engineers is quite
large. Hello and I hope that my input in the EV field earns the help that I
need to achieve an EV milage range of 1000 miles without use of fossle fuel
support.
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> For the 40 amp-hr (at 1C) rated Kokam, we have 40 amp discharge for 60
> minutes and 400 amp for 5.62 minutes.
>
> This gives us a Pseudo Peukerts capacity of 44.420 and Pseudo Peukerts
> exponent of 1.028
>
> Cliff
>
> www.ProEV.com
Thanks, Cliff - this is the one now found on the calculator.
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> If anyone is in or near Riceville TN and wants to get into TIG welding, I
> have a friend there that has an older AIRCO air cooled unit for sale that he
> said he only wants 200 for when i talked to him last week. Contact me OL if
> you want me to put you in touch. Not mine, just passing this along in case
> an EVer is interested.
Along the same thread, if anyone near Vacaville, CA wants a Miller AC "buzz
box", I have one I've never used, since lack of ability meant I paid someone
else to do the work! I'll check the specs if you contact me directly - cowtown
@ spamcop.net
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John,
I already sent second email 5 minutes after this one acknowledging
broken link, and posted correct one. BRUSA moved docs around and
I just forgot to update mine on the web - will do that.
The cost of the most expensive Ah counter perhaps is 4 times
of the cheapesr e-meter. The cost of basic model is probably *about
the same*.
How much the emeter cost (add all those prescalers, the shunt,
isolated 12V source, everything you need to make it functional)?
As of eurosnobbery: it was asked about alternatives, so I pointed
to the alternative. Others will decide for themselves if the price
worth the product and may not see other optiions as snobbery
just because it is not made in the USA.
So get patriotic and use US emeter if you want, no problem.
It doen's look good labeling others (not me, people looking
for alternatives).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 04 Mar 2005 12:55:10 -0800, Victor Tikhonov
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dave,
Other option - Brusa Ah counter. Does everything Link10
does (except has no RS232) and some more, depending on the model.
http://www.metricmind.com/counter.htm
At over 4 times the cost of an E-meter, I'm scratching my head trying
to figure out what this line of meters has to offer. Other than
eurosnobbery, of course. BTW, Victor, the link to the user's manual
on the above page is broken. Here is the only one I could find on the
Brusa site:
http://www.brusa.biz/assets/downloads/manuals/bcm_155.pdf
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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