EV Digest 4163
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 0-10V controller input? - conversion circuit link
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lithium Titanate anode
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Bearingless Switched Reluctance motor
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) potbox tolerance
by "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Belly Pan Questions
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Controller Wanted
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Belly Pan Questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas Led Sleds
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Belly Pan Questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: potbox tolerance
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: potbox tolerance
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Jeep EV Update (New Controller!)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to Mike for posting my schematic.
I used this on my 1995 Club car for 7 years
without a problem. It converts a standard 0-5K pot
into a 6-10V input required on a Curtis, Taylor-Dunn
control.
Rod
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Rod,
>
> Okay, the pdf can be accessed at:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/tech/
>
> I will let you mention it to the list if you want.
>
> Thanks,
>
> MIke
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a supplier willing to work with medium size quantiies and some
more info. Not quite the same stuff physically. They have even sent me
samples but I need to find a supplier for liPF6 (eletrolyte salt) and
DEC,DC to play with and figure out 1 more detail. Actually I found a new
solvent, but lost the link at the moment, that replaces the DEC/DC
solvent with an aqueus one and therefore doesn't require a glovebox
during electrode manufacturer and assembly, just the electrolyte filling
operation.
http://www.sud-chemie.com/scmcms/web/binary.jsp?nodeId=4855&binaryId=3991&preview=&disposition=inline&lang=en
As I understand it, This would create a 2.4Volt cell with extendend
cycle life. I wonder if being 2.4V, exactly twice the lead acid pre cell
voltage will help when buying chargers, controllers and dc-dc converters.
Altair is going beyond the sud-chemie product but the artical says
"keeping it close to chest" ie not yet avail.
I don't think it would be that hard to make our own lithium ion
batteries (I know I could just be naive) Does anyone know if large scale
(50-200ah) cells use a slurry on a plate or a slurry pressed into a
screen for the electrode/current collector configuration ?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought some on the list would be interested
in this motor.
http://www.glitec.org/tech110104.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> David, I couldn't agree more with this statement and it is so
> much more
> evident in gas racing than electric where the price spread is
> enormous. The
> cars that get all the press, TV and sponsorship are sub four
> second rails
> and "Funny Cars". This is just the way it is. People don't
> want to come to
> an event to see sub twenty second lead sleds. In order to
> gain the respect
> of the gas crowd we have to go head to head with them.
> Although I think it
> is great to see what people can put together on a shoestring
> I don't think
> it does that much for the acceptance of EVs. People are going
> to judge them
> by their appearance and how quick they are. It's just the way
> it is. I
> didn't create this culture, I just wish to change it and I
> believe this is
> the intention of NEDRA as well.
Hi Roderick,
All good points, but you might be missing something. Presenting EVs well to
the gas crowd *is* very important. Unfortunately, the people who know the
ropes in drag racing, the ones who can put the best face on EVs, generally
came from the gas crowd. Getting gas racers to cross over to EVs will be
hard. EVs are just too weird for them to wrap their heads around. And
there are only so many people like you, John, Dennis, Bill and the other top
EV racers who are crazy enough to go head-to-head with the gassers. ;^)
Waiting for more EVers to learn the ropes of drag racing might take a Very
Long Time.
Unless you help them along. We certainly still need the top dogs in EV
racing need to keep pushing the limits and challenging the gassers. But we
also need to encourage more EVers to join you. Face it - most EVers don't
fit the racing demographic. We come at this from an entirely different
mindset than the typical gas racer. The reason you see so many 20 second
lead sleds is that people are racing their daily drivers. We're more
concerned with (for example) keeping that low battery from going BANG so we
can get to work tomorrow, than in the latest speed tweaks.
Let's be honest - don't you think the usual test and tune crowd sees a NEDRA
event as something like Geeks on Parade? I've been to the Power of DC.
Everyone gets along very well, and lots of the fun is in bridging the gap.
But the gap is wide. Most of the EVers are there more for the EVs than the
racing.
You need to make it easy for EVers to get hooked on racing. I think a
claimer class could help do that. You can pick how much you want to spend.
Most likely the cars will be built specifically for racing. This is
important, since trying to make your daily driver do race duty can be Very
Frustrating. Some of the claimers will probably look pretty rough, but some
will be very nice - the same kind of spread you're likely to find in the
gasser pits. And I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how quick the
claimers can be once the class establishes itself. You just might find the
claimers to be a source of real innovation.
If it was me, I would not enforce an auction at an event. The claimers
should be an entry level, somewhere an EVer can get into racing and learn
with a minimum of cost and frustration. Learning takes some continuity. If
you force people to start over too often, I feel the whole effort will
collapse. Claiming someone's car should be done only as a protest, to keep
the costs reasonable within the various claiming levels. That way the
claimers cause little work for officials - they police themselves.
There may be other ways to increase participation EV racing. I think
claimer classes are an option that should be considered.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lithium might get you to your 1000 mile range, it would require about
> 170 kWh worth of capacity in a well designed and executed vehicle.
> Currently available Kokam Li-polymer are rated at 171Wh/kg, you would
> need about 1000kg (2,200Lbs, just over 1 Ton). If you can still
> achieve 6 miles per kWh of capacity this would yield 1000 miles with 20
> to spare. The T-Zero and other modern BEV's can currently do this.
They can do it because they aren't pushing around a ton of batteries. Add
all the other bits required by an EV (motor, controller, chasis, etc.) and
you are close to 2 tons (4,000 lbs)
Achieving 6 miles per kwh at resonable speeds with a 4,000 lb vehicle is
going to be challenging.
Getting 1,000 mile range with todays technology is impractical, and
uneccessary. 200-300 miles would be more than adequate, especially if you
could devise a rapid refueling method.
I'm going to get optimistic and I'll bet we get affordable batteries that
can give us 200+ miles within 5 years. The Kokam LiPoly are very
promising, though still a bit pricey.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a Magura twist grip pot for my motorcycle. I measured it the other
day and it is actually a 4.7k ohm pot. Should I be concerned that I am not
getting fully to 5K? I had to think I am not getting all I can out of the
bike because of the pot value.
Thanks,
Garret in the Denver area
P.S. any Colorado guys want to get together and talk shop, or work in the
shop?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1) What's a good material to use for belly pans
2) Where's a good place to buy the material
3) Do I need to drill weep holes in the bottom of the belly pan in case
water gets in?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Refueling 170kWh wouldn't be trivial. To recharge in 8 hours, you'd need to
be pushing about 75A on a 220V line into them. 50A from a PFC-50 would
probably take around 12 hours or so.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:23 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
> Lithium might get you to your 1000 mile range, it would require about
> 170 kWh worth of capacity in a well designed and executed vehicle.
> Currently available Kokam Li-polymer are rated at 171Wh/kg, you would
> need about 1000kg (2,200Lbs, just over 1 Ton). If you can still
> achieve 6 miles per kWh of capacity this would yield 1000 miles with 20
> to spare. The T-Zero and other modern BEV's can currently do this.
They can do it because they aren't pushing around a ton of batteries. Add
all the other bits required by an EV (motor, controller, chasis, etc.) and
you are close to 2 tons (4,000 lbs)
Achieving 6 miles per kwh at resonable speeds with a 4,000 lb vehicle is
going to be challenging.
Getting 1,000 mile range with todays technology is impractical, and
uneccessary. 200-300 miles would be more than adequate, especially if you
could devise a rapid refueling method.
I'm going to get optimistic and I'll bet we get affordable batteries that
can give us 200+ miles within 5 years. The Kokam LiPoly are very
promising, though still a bit pricey.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
True enough, but I look at it like this,
The farthest I have EVER driven a car was from Charlotte NC to Ft.
Lauderdale FL. It took me 12 hours +- and was something like 700
miles. I promptly got to my destination. I got to my destination at
about 8:00 pm. Had I plugged my car into a 50 amp charger, it would
have been completely recharged in about 8hours. I know *I* would not be
recharged in 8 hours.
I think any range over about 200-300 miles, while nice, and a selling
point even, is really overkill. Who drives 200-300 miles a day on a
regular basis?
I have a farm that is 35 miles from my house. My worst "day" driving I
drive to work (14 miles) the farm, (38 miles) and home (35 miles). Even
if while I am at the farm I run into town for lunch (15 mile round trip)
I have only driven a little over 100 miles, and except for while I was
at work, I could have charged at 15-20 amps between trips.
Couple this with a 30-50 amp 220 charger at home, and I could in theory
do this EVERY DAY FOR A WEEK without charging with an 800 mile range. I
could do it every day no problem with a 150 mile range.
I think about 300 miles is the "sweet spot" for EV's. Get them there
with reasonable (sub 12 hour) recharge times and you are set IMHO.
James
On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 09:57, Bill Dennis wrote:
> Refueling 170kWh wouldn't be trivial. To recharge in 8 hours, you'd need to
> be pushing about 75A on a 220V line into them. 50A from a PFC-50 would
> probably take around 12 hours or so.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:23 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
>
> > Lithium might get you to your 1000 mile range, it would require about
> > 170 kWh worth of capacity in a well designed and executed vehicle.
> > Currently available Kokam Li-polymer are rated at 171Wh/kg, you would
> > need about 1000kg (2,200Lbs, just over 1 Ton). If you can still
> > achieve 6 miles per kWh of capacity this would yield 1000 miles with 20
> > to spare. The T-Zero and other modern BEV's can currently do this.
>
> They can do it because they aren't pushing around a ton of batteries. Add
> all the other bits required by an EV (motor, controller, chasis, etc.) and
> you are close to 2 tons (4,000 lbs)
> Achieving 6 miles per kwh at resonable speeds with a 4,000 lb vehicle is
> going to be challenging.
>
> Getting 1,000 mile range with todays technology is impractical, and
> uneccessary. 200-300 miles would be more than adequate, especially if you
> could devise a rapid refueling method.
>
> I'm going to get optimistic and I'll bet we get affordable batteries that
> can give us 200+ miles within 5 years. The Kokam LiPoly are very
> promising, though still a bit pricey.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris, I didn't mean to offend anyone with the remark about Lead Sleds. If
so, I sincerely apologize. Concerning "Claimer Classes" we at NEDRA are
currently considering them. When we set up NEDRA we wanted to have lots of
classes to be fair to everyone and we do have classes down to the point that
you can obtain a World Record with a 48 volt car. We also accomplished
getting EVs into the NHRA so people can bracket race. Not only does bracket
racing totally level out the playing field but there are more than just a
few isolated events happening around the country each year. I would say
don't let the lack of claimer races stop you. Get out there on the weekend
and race your daily driver without harming it. It is all in place. Take
advantage of it. This is where you will get some of the gas crowd
interested. When we go to bracket racing I have always found the gas crowd
to be very welcoming and curious. After all, the history of drag racing has
much more to do with innovation to the power unit than with the power unit
itself. It was formed by people stepping out of the box and trying new
things to get more performance. This is how we relate to that crowd.
Roderick Wilde
NEDRA President
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 5:52 AM
Subject: RE: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
Roderick Wilde wrote:
David, I couldn't agree more with this statement and it is so
much more
evident in gas racing than electric where the price spread is
enormous. The
cars that get all the press, TV and sponsorship are sub four
second rails
and "Funny Cars". This is just the way it is. People don't
want to come to
an event to see sub twenty second lead sleds. In order to
gain the respect
of the gas crowd we have to go head to head with them.
Although I think it
is great to see what people can put together on a shoestring
I don't think
it does that much for the acceptance of EVs. People are going
to judge them
by their appearance and how quick they are. It's just the way
it is. I
didn't create this culture, I just wish to change it and I
believe this is
the intention of NEDRA as well.
Hi Roderick,
All good points, but you might be missing something. Presenting EVs well
to
the gas crowd *is* very important. Unfortunately, the people who know the
ropes in drag racing, the ones who can put the best face on EVs, generally
came from the gas crowd. Getting gas racers to cross over to EVs will be
hard. EVs are just too weird for them to wrap their heads around. And
there are only so many people like you, John, Dennis, Bill and the other
top
EV racers who are crazy enough to go head-to-head with the gassers. ;^)
Waiting for more EVers to learn the ropes of drag racing might take a Very
Long Time.
Unless you help them along. We certainly still need the top dogs in EV
racing need to keep pushing the limits and challenging the gassers. But
we
also need to encourage more EVers to join you. Face it - most EVers don't
fit the racing demographic. We come at this from an entirely different
mindset than the typical gas racer. The reason you see so many 20 second
lead sleds is that people are racing their daily drivers. We're more
concerned with (for example) keeping that low battery from going BANG so
we
can get to work tomorrow, than in the latest speed tweaks.
Let's be honest - don't you think the usual test and tune crowd sees a
NEDRA
event as something like Geeks on Parade? I've been to the Power of DC.
Everyone gets along very well, and lots of the fun is in bridging the gap.
But the gap is wide. Most of the EVers are there more for the EVs than
the
racing.
You need to make it easy for EVers to get hooked on racing. I think a
claimer class could help do that. You can pick how much you want to
spend.
Most likely the cars will be built specifically for racing. This is
important, since trying to make your daily driver do race duty can be Very
Frustrating. Some of the claimers will probably look pretty rough, but
some
will be very nice - the same kind of spread you're likely to find in the
gasser pits. And I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how quick the
claimers can be once the class establishes itself. You just might find
the
claimers to be a source of real innovation.
If it was me, I would not enforce an auction at an event. The claimers
should be an entry level, somewhere an EVer can get into racing and learn
with a minimum of cost and frustration. Learning takes some continuity.
If
you force people to start over too often, I feel the whole effort will
collapse. Claiming someone's car should be done only as a protest, to
keep
the costs reasonable within the various claiming levels. That way the
claimers cause little work for officials - they police themselves.
There may be other ways to increase participation EV racing. I think
claimer classes are an option that should be considered.
Chris
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone have a 120V, 500+ Amp controller they'd like to sell?
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 1) What's a good material to use for belly pans
> 2) Where's a good place to buy the material
> 3) Do I need to drill weep holes in the bottom of the belly pan in case
> water gets in?
I've used Colorplast, it's like cardboard only made out of plastic. I
bought it at a sign shop, they get it in 4' x 8' sheets.
It's light, durable, easy to work with, and reasonably cheap.
Another possiblity is the fiberglass sheets they sell at hardware stores.
I believe it's intended for bathrooms and so forth.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: Dave Cloud's Rules ideas
> Chris, I didn't mean to offend anyone with the remark about Lead Sleds.
No offense here, ether! I run TRAINS, Acela, that can blow my Rabbit's
doors in on a quarter mile, EVery day. EV's are something for everybody,
mild to wild(e) I wouldn't think of racing it, well, maybe against OTHER Led
Sleds. For me it's driving without GAS in these troubled times. Gas is about
2 bux a gal in CT As Mad Magazine used to say "Cheap"on the cover right
after 25 cents, that dates me, I guess. Subways in NYC were 15 sense, gas
was 28 a gal.They are talking about 3 bux a gal this summer, just in time
for the driving season.But you can still go transcon by plane for 99 bux!
guess they don't fill up where I buy gas! But for how much longer?
Well, when I can scrape toghther enough Nicads to do my next car? So it
isn't over GVW, no heavier springs etc. drive like a .well, CAR! Not a
truck.
So, Push the envelope. Race the hell out of the EV's so I don't hafta
break things, and all that. I see a lotta changes for the faster as the new
batteries come on line, or are more affordable, race proven if ya will?
Seeya at the races
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course a tool like this is simple to make. I made mine from a syringe we
used for giving the kids medicine (I had several of them laying around) and
a piece of insulation from some 10 guage wire I had stripped.
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 23:30:18 +0100
i have +2000Amp capable Saft cells (50Ah/1C: CVH500), same type and usage
than marathon BB-600 (aircraft starting)
they are both high power low energy cells (40wh/kg compared to Saft EV
purpose 55wh/kg batteries)
Saft, like Marathon, make a lot of cells and batteries type for a lot of
usage :^)
The issue with this cells is watering, there is a special tool you
absolutely need to have correct level (watering is often and vital for
cells
like BB-600 because they have tiny water reserve and high water consuption)
this is one for CVH500:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/SeringueSaft.jpg
the genuine 24V50Ah aircraft starting box open
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/Aprilia%20Eproject%20001.jpg
a special made 13,2V box (for 24V box complement on an 37,2V electric
scooter)
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/SaftCVH50504.jpg
i discharged and charged 2 days ago the 37,2V pack with a special
Nicad/Nimh
algorythme charger, they are now sitting at 42.2V (1.38V/cells) waiting for
next hard discharge test :^)
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
> I thought that the BB600 Nicad cells were manufactured by Marathon, not
Saft.
>
> Saft makes Nicad cells and batteries that have higher energy density,
but
> nowhere near the power density of the sintered-plate BB600s.
>
> On the other hand, I've heard that BB600 is actually a military
> designation, and not the real product name for the Marathon cells (which
I
> think is something like "H-120" or similar) ... Are you saying that
Saft
> has a sintered-plate cell product that is identical (i.e. 2000+ amps,
> etc)?
>
>
> --chris
>
>
>
>
> Tim Humphrey said:
> > Please reply OFF-LIST if you would be interested in purchasing some
never-
> > used military surplus BB-600 NiCad cells.
> >
> > These are manufactured by Saft. They are flooded 34ah aircraft
starting
> > battery individual cells.
> >
> >
> > 3.3 lbs
> > 1.2 volts
> > 34 ah
> > 772 amps discharge rate
> >
> >
> > How about a buck a cell, plus shipping, initial offering.
> >
> > Reply off list.
> >
> >
> > -
> >
> > Stay Charged!
> > Hump
> > "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
> > Ford
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have Saft cells that are almost identical to the BB600. Usually when
Saft's are mentioned on this list people are referring to the 6 volt STM
modules, but Saft is a big player in the airline battery market and have a
whole line of high current sintered plate cells.
damon
From: "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2005 15:24:35 -0600 (CST)
I thought that the BB600 Nicad cells were manufactured by Marathon, not
Saft.
Saft makes Nicad cells and batteries that have higher energy density, but
nowhere near the power density of the sintered-plate BB600s.
On the other hand, I've heard that BB600 is actually a military
designation, and not the real product name for the Marathon cells (which I
think is something like "H-120" or similar) ... Are you saying that Saft
has a sintered-plate cell product that is identical (i.e. 2000+ amps,
etc)?
--chris
Tim Humphrey said:
> Please reply OFF-LIST if you would be interested in purchasing some
never-
> used military surplus BB-600 NiCad cells.
>
> These are manufactured by Saft. They are flooded 34ah aircraft starting
> battery individual cells.
>
>
> 3.3 lbs
> 1.2 volts
> 34 ah
> 772 amps discharge rate
>
>
> How about a buck a cell, plus shipping, initial offering.
>
> Reply off list.
>
>
> -
>
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
> "Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry
> Ford
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This was done back in 1975!!!
When I pick up my EV call the Transformer I from the Electric Fuel Propulsion
Company in Troy, Michigan, it had 1056 test miles on it. They wanted to prove
to all the critics that a EV can be driven 1000 miles in 24 hours.
This car had 300 AH lead cobalt cells that had the plates tie together at the
top and bottom. On a road course and or test track they drove the 1056 miles
in 24 hours averaging 44 mph.
The car has a top speed of 92 mph at 6000 rpm in 4th gear with a ratio of
5.57:1. The battery pack was charge to 100+ percent at start to 1.320+
specific gravity.
About every hour of driving, the battery would be charge with a large off board
charging station starting at 300 AMPS!!! FOR 15 TO 20 MINUTES to 80 percent
charge and then the drivers would go again.
It was also a endurance test to see if they can break down any components on
the EV. They had to replace one small 25 amp diode.
When I received the car, I drove it for 10 years, replacing only THREE CELLS!!
at a cost of $30.00 a cell. My driving here in Montana could be call extreme
by some EV drivers today. My daily driving to work was starting from my home
which is at a bottom of a long steep hill that is 3 miles long to my work site
on top of hill.
I would pull about 600 amps at 60 mph going up this hill for about 3 minutes.
The voltage lag was only to 170 volts on a 180 volt battery pack that was
CHARGE TO 2.77 VOLTS PER CELL OR ABOUT 250 VOLTS.
Ohh, it was great driving that EV in the winter time at -30 below going up that
hill, that was not plow yet very early in the morning passing all the ICE's
that was slipping and sliding all over the place. This car would walk right up
that hill.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: James Jarrett<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:13 AM
Subject: RE: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
True enough, but I look at it like this,
The farthest I have EVER driven a car was from Charlotte NC to Ft.
Lauderdale FL. It took me 12 hours +- and was something like 700
miles. I promptly got to my destination. I got to my destination at
about 8:00 pm. Had I plugged my car into a 50 amp charger, it would
have been completely recharged in about 8hours. I know *I* would not be
recharged in 8 hours.
I think any range over about 200-300 miles, while nice, and a selling
point even, is really overkill. Who drives 200-300 miles a day on a
regular basis?
I have a farm that is 35 miles from my house. My worst "day" driving I
drive to work (14 miles) the farm, (38 miles) and home (35 miles). Even
if while I am at the farm I run into town for lunch (15 mile round trip)
I have only driven a little over 100 miles, and except for while I was
at work, I could have charged at 15-20 amps between trips.
Couple this with a 30-50 amp 220 charger at home, and I could in theory
do this EVERY DAY FOR A WEEK without charging with an 800 mile range. I
could do it every day no problem with a 150 mile range.
I think about 300 miles is the "sweet spot" for EV's. Get them there
with reasonable (sub 12 hour) recharge times and you are set IMHO.
James
On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 09:57, Bill Dennis wrote:
> Refueling 170kWh wouldn't be trivial. To recharge in 8 hours, you'd need to
> be pushing about 75A on a 220V line into them. 50A from a PFC-50 would
> probably take around 12 hours or so.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:23 AM
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
>
> > Lithium might get you to your 1000 mile range, it would require about
> > 170 kWh worth of capacity in a well designed and executed vehicle.
> > Currently available Kokam Li-polymer are rated at 171Wh/kg, you would
> > need about 1000kg (2,200Lbs, just over 1 Ton). If you can still
> > achieve 6 miles per kWh of capacity this would yield 1000 miles with 20
> > to spare. The T-Zero and other modern BEV's can currently do this.
>
> They can do it because they aren't pushing around a ton of batteries. Add
> all the other bits required by an EV (motor, controller, chasis, etc.) and
> you are close to 2 tons (4,000 lbs)
> Achieving 6 miles per kwh at resonable speeds with a 4,000 lb vehicle is
> going to be challenging.
>
> Getting 1,000 mile range with todays technology is impractical, and
> uneccessary. 200-300 miles would be more than adequate, especially if you
> could devise a rapid refueling method.
>
> I'm going to get optimistic and I'll bet we get affordable batteries that
> can give us 200+ miles within 5 years. The Kokam LiPoly are very
> promising, though still a bit pricey.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would it not be what the belly pan is protecting against from. Here in
Montana, I'am driving down a rough trail that may have rocks and boulders.
For this type of road driving, they used 1/4 inch stainless steel plate. You
could go with 1/4 inch aluminum plate and epoxy paint with appliance paint.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: Belly Pan Questions
> 1) What's a good material to use for belly pans
> 2) Where's a good place to buy the material
> 3) Do I need to drill weep holes in the bottom of the belly pan in case
> water gets in?
I've used Colorplast, it's like cardboard only made out of plastic. I
bought it at a sign shop, they get it in 4' x 8' sheets.
It's light, durable, easy to work with, and reasonably cheap.
Another possiblity is the fiberglass sheets they sell at hardware stores.
I believe it's intended for bathrooms and so forth.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Garret,
Lee Hart answered this question when responding to a different email. He was referring
to a Curtis controller. Look for a message titled "Contactor Straight to Motor Test
OK?" posted by Patrick Matson on March 7th. Lee's reply is quoted (in part) below:
First, I'd see if the potbox is actually calling for full throttle.
Measure its resistance; it should change from 0 ohms to 5k ohms as the
throttle is moved from fully released (off) to fully depressed (full
power. The controller actually starts turning on at around 300 ohms, and
is fully on over 4400 ohms.
Maki, Garret wrote:
I have a Magura twist grip pot for my motorcycle. I measured it the other
day and it is actually a 4.7k ohm pot. Should I be concerned that I am not
getting fully to 5K? I had to think I am not getting all I can out of the
bike because of the pot value.
Thanks,
Garret in the Denver area
P.S. any Colorado guys want to get together and talk shop, or work in the
shop?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And with proper super cap with lion cell youll get it all out nicely.
With out much performance degration in the low SOC area. At least in EV
use. This will also help lions to survive much longer in EV.
I have fallen love with these Lions... Driving EV with them is keeping
my Grin on constantly......
-Jukka
fevt.com
Lightning Ryan kirjoitti:
ProEV wrote:
Let's take a look at some published Kokam data on their other Li-Poly
batteries. At http://www.kokam.com/english/product/battery_main.html
under SLB603870H, there is a zip file that charts information for
their high
capacity 1.5 amp-hr cell used in R/C planes.
The information is in terms of capacity but we can translate it. Time X
current = amp-hrs
If .5 C provides 1.6 amp-hrs, = .75 amps for 128 minutes.
If 3 C provides 1.49 amp-hrs, = 4.5 amps for 19.9 minutes.
If 5 C provides 1.44 amp-hrs, = 7.5 amps for 11.5 minutes.
If 7 C provides 1.36 amp-hrs, = 10.5 amps for 7.8 minutes.
If 10 C provides .99 amp-hrs, = 15 amps for 4.0 minutes.
I think the difference in Ah capacity that you see here at various
rates is simply due to the ammount of voltage sag at those rates
and a fixed cut off voltage that ends of the tests.
My cycler stops when 3.0vpc is reached. So...
at 0.5C there is very little voltage sag, you get the full capacity.
at 1.0C there is slightly more sag, and the discharge ends sooner.
at 2.0C there is even more sag, and thus less "aparent capacity"...
But, if you were to re-discharge the 2.0C test at 0.5C you would
most likely end up with the same total capacity taken from the cell.
eg. using the numbers from above...
If you run the 10C discharge, with lots of sag, you get 0.99Ah out.
Now if you were to continue to discharge at 7C you get another 0.37Ah.
Again at 5C=0.08Ah, Again at 3C=0.05Ah, One last time at .5C=0.11Ah.
Add them all up, 0.99+0.37+0.08+0.05+0.11 and you get Whala! 1.6Ah!
So there isn't any Puckert's effect, only various sag levels which
make the test end at various points below the full capacity.
Isn't Lithium Great!!! 1Ah actually means 1Ah! Very Nice.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maki, Garret wrote:
> I have a Magura twist grip pot for my motorcycle. I measured it the
> other day and it is actually a 4.7k ohm pot. Should I be concerned
> that I am not getting fully to 5K?
The Curtis controllers specify 4.4k as "full throttle", so you should be
ok. I'm not sure about other brands of controller.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Lead-acids fit Peukert's equation pretty well. Other types not so well,
though still well enough so that Peukert's equation is a better fit than
assuming no Peukert effect at all (i.e. no change in amphour capacity
regardless of the discharge current).
Lee, what makes you think so? Any data or experiences/observations?
Did you do any such tests with your TS-LP90's ?
Are you sure that Ah reduction is not due need to cut off battery
eatrlier because of increased voltage sag and so extracted Ah
is lower but remaining Ah are still in the battery?
Well, this is the case for lead as well, but to extract all
Ah from lead (20h rate) requires single amps rate - totally
unuseable for EV purpose. With lithium you may have slow
down from 10C to, say, 3C to extract all Ah, and 3C is still
high enough for EV use (if the pack is not undersized).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Jarrett kirjoitti:
True enough, but I look at it like this,
The farthest I have EVER driven a car was from Charlotte NC to Ft.
Lauderdale FL. It took me 12 hours +- and was something like 700
miles. I promptly got to my destination. I got to my destination at
about 8:00 pm. Had I plugged my car into a 50 amp charger, it would
have been completely recharged in about 8hours. I know *I* would not be
recharged in 8 hours.
I drove once 1100 miles with one seating. PAIN ! And in previous job as
coputer geek I drove about 150 miles per day. And alway there was a
chargign post at customer (220VAC 16A) and again in home. I did some of
these trips with my EV (home customer one 50 miles, customer one to cust
two 20 miles and home through food store 40 miles) Thou in the 10 miles
before home I was crawling @ 10 mph.
Now when I have Lions (+150 mile range) and new job my daily driving to
work is about 30 miles round trip. Ironic.
I think any range over about 200-300 miles, while nice, and a selling
point even, is really overkill. Who drives 200-300 miles a day on a
regular basis?
Cabs and delivery companies have here about 190 miles average daily
driving. They could get away already with Lions and EV1 -class cars
(10kwh/60 miles)
I think about 300 miles is the "sweet spot" for EV's. Get them there
with reasonable (sub 12 hour) recharge times and you are set IMHO.
Almost all homes have here 3 phase connection to grid. During night time
houses need about 2 % of that. Why the car should not rest while we are
? (23:00 - 06:30 about 170 kWh available (energy worth of ~10 litres
diesel = 120 miles in normal EU car today))
-Jukka
fevt.com
James
On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 09:57, Bill Dennis wrote:
Refueling 170kWh wouldn't be trivial. To recharge in 8 hours, you'd need to
be pushing about 75A on a 220V line into them. 50A from a PFC-50 would
probably take around 12 hours or so.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:23 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
Lithium might get you to your 1000 mile range, it would require about
170 kWh worth of capacity in a well designed and executed vehicle.
Currently available Kokam Li-polymer are rated at 171Wh/kg, you would
need about 1000kg (2,200Lbs, just over 1 Ton). If you can still
achieve 6 miles per kWh of capacity this would yield 1000 miles with 20
to spare. The T-Zero and other modern BEV's can currently do this.
They can do it because they aren't pushing around a ton of batteries. Add
all the other bits required by an EV (motor, controller, chasis, etc.) and
you are close to 2 tons (4,000 lbs)
Achieving 6 miles per kwh at resonable speeds with a 4,000 lb vehicle is
going to be challenging.
Getting 1,000 mile range with todays technology is impractical, and
uneccessary. 200-300 miles would be more than adequate, especially if you
could devise a rapid refueling method.
I'm going to get optimistic and I'll bet we get affordable batteries that
can give us 200+ miles within 5 years. The Kokam LiPoly are very
promising, though still a bit pricey.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Isn't the output fuse supposed to be a 25 to 30 amp fuse??? it's a 300 watt
DC/DC converter. So the 30 amp ATO fuse is needed to support it.
The input fuse is NOT supposed to open that's why it's burried inside the
cover.
How much Green fuzz is inside the converter on the High voltage rail?
A Raptor 1200 would have been my starting point with anything over 3000 lbs.
The Red Beastie had a Raptor 450... special build for John Wayland.
I clearly remember fusing all of John's contactors with one of the first DCP
1200s 1000 amps and 250 amp Czonka contactors... NOT good.
We walked home from the West Portland hills in a VERY chilly wind from the
Gorge.
I have lost one fuse on my DCP DC/DCs Years ago.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 8:29 PM
Subject: Jeep EV Update (New Controller!)
> Hi,
>
> I am happy to announce that my Jeep EV is now powered by a Zilla 1K
> motor controller! This motor controller upgrade was prompted by the poor
> performance I was getting out of my Jeep. (As an after-thought, I've
> learned now that 600 amps is NOT sufficient for a 4500+ lb Jeep. (Too
> bad my parts supplier didn't know this before he sold me a controller)).
>
> It seems the Raptor 600 controller I was using just wasn't powerful
> enough to push this heavy vehicle around with any power. True, the Zilla
> 1K upgrade only gives me at best 400 more amps to work with, but this
> has proved to be a big help! This is even despite the fact that I am
> limiting the Zilla by setting the maximum battery amps to 400 amps (and
> the motor amps are set at max to 1000 amps of course). I've done this
> because I have flooded batteries and want to avoid blowing them up
> (among other things). Still, even with the battery amps set low, the
> Zilla makes the Jeep pull hard. It has finally brought my Jeep out of
> the "will this little Jeep that could make it up the hill" stage to
> being an EV with solid, reasonable performance! I guess the best
> comparison for the performance is that my Jeep now feels like a stock
> Cherokee with a 6- cylinder engine, except with more low end torque ;-).
> Seeing as how my Cherokee weighs 1200+ lbs more than a stock Cherokee, I
> think this performance is just fine. Put shortly, the Zilla really rocks!
>
> There are pictures of the Zilla 1K and potbox installation here:
> http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/photos/pgallery5_1.php
>
> Now, on to a problem which has surfaced:
>
> Since I installed my Zilla, my DC/DC converter has begun blowing its
> input fuse. I own a DCP DC/DC converter. Basically, it appears the DC/DC
> converter works fine when the Jeep is off. However, when I turn on the
> Jeep (by taking the ignition switch to the start position to activate
> the Zilla), the DC/DC converter's input fuse would blow within a minute
> or two. This appears to be a repeatable occurrence.
>
> After blowing the fuse three times, and getting sick of removing the
> DC/DC from the Jeep so I could take the cover off and replace the fuse,
> I installed a larger 30 amp fuse in the holder. I did, however, keep a
> 10 amp fuse installed in the main B+ line to the DC/DC, so it is still
> adequately protected. Well guess what? I went for a drive tonight and
> the DC/DC blew the external 10 amp fuse a few minutes into the drive.
>
> What gives? I never had the DC/DC converter blow its input fuse until I
> installed the Zilla in the Jeep. I am not trying to blame the Zilla for
> anything, just pointing out that connection. Also, If you are thinking
> about now that this problem sounds familiar, it is because Mark Farver
> was/is? having the exact same problems with his DCP DC/DC converter
> which is also installed in a car with a Zilla 1K.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
--- End Message ---
