EV Digest 4164
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Tire pressure for lower rolling resistance?
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Jeep EV Update (New Controller!)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Jeep EV Update (New Controller!)
by "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: FW: EV1 Vigil - More Big Wig GM Contact Info . . . Keep the
calls coming
by "Tim Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Barton & Shorty by B.I.G. Man
by "J Mac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Controller Wanted
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) AC Bandsaw motor questions
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Tire pressure for lower rolling resistance?
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AC Bandsaw motor questions
by Frank Schmitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: C-Cars AXE? controller
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: potbox tolerance
by "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: C-Cars AXE? controller
by "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: potbox tolerance
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: potbox tolerance
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I can second that statement about ultracaps. They do make critical
difference in the car behavior during accelerations (and regen braking
in my case) taking all the current abuse. LiIons happily supply steady
average current well below their max rating (about 30A come out
of my cells in my case in steady city driving on flat).
With 140A hard accelerations 100A come from ultracaps and 40A from
LiIons.
As an advantages of ultracaps vs boost lead pack:
They don't need charging infrastructure,
They don't care about the temp (helped me this winter immensely)
Life time many times over car's life time.
I see ultracaps as permanent part of the car like drive system,
not a disposable item as a battery.
Driving with 16.7F 400V capacitor for over a year now. Love it.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Jukka J�rvinen wrote:
And with proper super cap with lion cell youll get it all out nicely.
With out much performance degration in the low SOC area. At least in EV
use. This will also help lions to survive much longer in EV.
I have fallen love with these Lions... Driving EV with them is keeping
my Grin on constantly......
-Jukka
fevt.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Will I have lower rolling resistance with a higher pressure tire in the
same size and weight rating as a lower pressure tire? The tires I'm
considering are 175/70-13: Sumitomo HTR 200 @ 51 PSI max and an H speed
rating, and Goodyear Integrity @ 44 PSI max and an S speed rating. Both
have an 82 load rating (1047 pounds) at max pressure.
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan-
I almost agreed with you that LiPo batteries don't exhibit a Peukert
effect---almost.
You hypothesized that:
> I think the difference in Ah capacity that you see here at various
> rates is simply due to the ammount of voltage sag at those rates
> and a fixed cut off voltage that ends of the tests.
Then offered the following:
> My cycler stops when 3.0vpc is reached. So...
> at 0.5C there is very little voltage sag, you get the full capacity.
> at 1.0C there is slightly more sag, and the discharge ends sooner.
> at 2.0C there is even more sag, and thus less "aparent capacity"...
OK.
> But, if you were to re-discharge the 2.0C test at 0.5C you would
> most likely end up with the same total capacity taken from the cell.
What do you base this conclusion on?
Take ANY Lead Acid battery, discharge it at a 2C rate until its voltage
reaches some arbitrary level of depletion, then remove the load, or reduce
it to 0.5C and you will see the same thing---the voltage rebounds.
This doesn't imply anything about HOW MUCH energy is left in the battery.
You CAN'T have it both ways---you can't talk about the Lithium battery's
"voltage sag" (read: I*R drop, i.e. internal POWER LOSS) and then also
conclude that the energy delivered to a load by a Lithium battery is the
same at all discharge levels (i.e. no Peukert effect).
If a Lithium battery has internal resistance (Rint), and they do, then:
Pload = Pbatt - Pint ; where Pint = I * Rint
Since energy is equal to the integral of the power, the longer the current
flows at a higher rate, the more energy is lost to battery heat.
The more energy is lost, the less is deliverable.
The less internal resistance, the less affected by load a battery will be.
LiPos are not immune to this---in fact, internal resistance can be
relatively high as with the Thunder Sky batteries.
Since Pint = Rint * I^2, the internal loss is proportional to the square of
the battery current.
It seems obvious to me that the square effect of the battery current on
internal energy loss is where the exponential impact current has on battery
capacity in the Peukert equation.
Again, in applying the Peukert model to the Kokam battery you described, I
found the logarithmic model to fit fairly well, with the right parameters,
from 0.5 - 7C.
That's a pretty broad range.
I would be curious to see any test results which might support the claim
that this may be indeed true:
> If you run the 10C discharge, with lots of sag, you get 0.99Ah out.
> Now if you were to continue to discharge at 7C you get another 0.37Ah.
> Again at 5C=0.08Ah, Again at 3C=0.05Ah, One last time at .5C=0.11Ah.
> Add them all up, 0.99+0.37+0.08+0.05+0.11 and you get Whala! 1.6Ah!
To make the test accurate (and I have a 290mah 3.7v Kokam I could play games
with as well), do the test as follows:
1) Fully charge the battery and discharge it at 0.5, 2.0, 5.0, 7.0 and 10.0C
levels to the desired discharge voltage and note the time to discharge.
2) Recharge and repeat these tests to confirm validity of the values.
3) Next, recharge, then dischare at say, 5C to the same discharge voltage.
Note the time to discharge. Without recharging, continue from this point
with a discharge rate of 2C to the same discharge voltage. Note the time to
discharge. Recharge and repeat this test from 7.0 or some other level, or,
attempt something like a 7.0, 5.0, 2.0, 0.5 discharge sequence and note the
times to discharge to the test point.
Use the times measured at the current rates to compute the AH delivered in
each case.
Then conclude whatever can be concluded.
Remember, even a Lead Acid battery can discharge to its 20% voltage level at
2C, then, changing the load to 0.5C, get more energy out of the battery
before the voltage again reaches the same voltage level---we've all probably
'limped home' on electrons by doing this...
LiPos are not unique in this respect.
-Myles Twete
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great! How do they work for watering?
These are probably the ones we have.
Chris
damon henry wrote:
I have Saft cells that are almost identical to the BB600. Usually when
Saft's are mentioned on this list people are referring to the 6 volt STM
modules, but Saft is a big player in the airline battery market and have
a whole line of high current sintered plate cells.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Rich Rudman wrote:
Isn't the output fuse supposed to be a 25 to 30 amp fuse???
I was not talking about the output fuse, I'm talking about the INPUT
fuse blowing.
The input fuse is NOT supposed to open that's why it's burried inside the
cover.
But unfortunately the input fuse HAS been blowing. I can't get this unit
to stay running anymore...
How much Green fuzz is inside the converter on the High voltage rail?
None. My DC/DC is VERY clean on the inside. No burn/ scorch marks
anywhere. No burnt components. Yet, it continues to blow its input fuse.
A Raptor 1200 would have been my starting point with anything over 3000 lbs.
Yeah, as I said, I was counting on my parts supplier's advice for
controller selection, among other things. This is because I paid him for
his advice to help me get started. That was a mistake. Note that this
occurred before I found the Austin EV group and the EVDL. Oh, and by the
way, he originally sent me a 400 amp Curtis to use in my Jeep. But I
never used it, I ended up getting the Raptor instead.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick, who was your supplier?
Patrick
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 3/8/05 10:38:53 AM >>>
Yeah, as I said, I was counting on my parts supplier's advice for
controller selection, among other things. This is because I paid him
for
his advice to help me get started. That was a mistake. Note that this
occurred before I found the Austin EV group and the EVDL. Oh, and by
the
way, he originally sent me a 400 amp Curtis to use in my Jeep. But I
never used it, I ended up getting the Raptor instead.
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't forget to include your congress's as addressee's in those letters.
It was , after all, largely Gov't(public) money that built those EV-1's.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chip Gribben
> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 11:58 PM
> To: Ev
> Subject: EV1 Vigil - More Big Wig GM Contact Info . . . Keep the calls
> coming
>
> Thanks everyone for your efforts in contacting GM about destroying the
> last
> 78 EV-1s.
>
> We have more contact information listed below.
>
>>From what we can tell GM has been caught off guard by all the messages
> getting through, both in their Detroit and Washington DC offices.
>
> Apparently Mr. Lutz has asked his assistants to stop forwarding calls to
> him
> concerning the EV-1. This is a result of our phone-in efforts. But there
> are
> more numbers we can call.
>
> We can also be creative and also fax and write.
>
>
> Richard Wagoner
> President and CEO
> General Motors
> 300 Renaissance Center
> Mail Call 482-C39-B40
> Detroit, MI 48265
>
> Phone: (313) 556-5000
> Fax: (517) 272-3709
>
>
> Mr. Rober Lutz
> Vice Chairman
> General Motors
> 300 Renaissance Center
> Mail Call 482-C39-B40
> Detroit, MI 48265
>
> Phone: (313) 556-5000
> Fax: (517) 272-3709
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> Jill Banaszanski
> Brand Analyst, EV1, S-10 EV, NEV
> 1996 Technology Drive
> Troy, MI 48007-7083
>
> Phone: (248) 680-5509
> Fax: (248) 680-5600
>
>
> Chris Preuss
> Director of GM Communications, Washington DC.
> Phone: (202) 775-5008
> Cell: 202-329-7011
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> Dave Barthmuss
> GM Spokesman (works for Chris Preuss)
> (202) 775-5008
> (313) 665-9036
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> Thanks everyone!!
>
> Chip Gribben
> Save the EV1
> http://www.saveev1.org
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What do you know about these two electric vehicles?
Reliable?
Dependable?
Durable?
Worth the price?
Does anyone own one?
Mac
_________________________________________________________________
FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Lead-acids fit Peukert's equation pretty well. Other types not so
>> well, though still well enough so that Peukert's equation is a
>> better fit than assuming no Peukert effect at all (i.e. no change
>> in amphour capacity regardless of the discharge current).
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Lee, what makes you think so? Any data or experiences/observations?
> Did you do any such tests with your TS-LP90's ?
Yes, I did. As soon as you define a minimum voltage cutoff point (other
that 0v/cell), then current affects the amphours at which the cell is by
definition "dead". And that means Peukert's equation is a more accurate
predictor than a straight-line AmpHours = Amps x Hours equation.
> Are you sure that Ah reduction is not due need to cut off battery
> eatrlier because of increased voltage sag and so extracted Ah
> is lower but remaining Ah are still in the battery?
Peukert's equation does not say anything about the *cause* of the
amphour reduction -- it just fits an equation to a curve of what
*actually* happens.
In most batteries, the Peukert effect is caused by the cell's internal
resistance. The internal resistance is not stable; it changes with
current, temperature, state of charge, age, charge-discharge cycles,
etc. In lead-acids, this resistance changes more than for most other
types, because the acid gets used up by the discharge reactions.
> Well, this is the case for lead as well, but to extract all
> Ah from lead (20h rate) requires single amps rate - totally
> unusable for EV purpose. With lithium you may have slow
> down from 10C to, say, 3C to extract all Ah, and 3C is still
> high enough for EV use (if the pack is not undersized).
The effect is there, but it's not as drastic as you think. Look at it
this way: Normal lead-acids have Peukert exponents in the range of
1.10-1.40. Nicads are more like 1.04-1.12 (i.e. the best lead-acids can
be better than the worst nicads). I've only tested a few small Nimh;
they are 1.10-1.20. And I've only tested the one set of ThunderSky
LiIons; they were 1.15-1.20.
Now, I know the LiIons I have are not representative of "good"
ThunderSkys; but they are all I have to test. Why don't you try some
discharge tests on one of your ThunderSkys at several different load
currents, and see how many amphours you get to some defined cutoff
voltage? Plot the points on a graph and see what their Peukert exponent
turns out to be.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*sigh* Yet another bump in the road to having an electric vehicle...
I was all set to hoist my 9" ADC into my Porsche 914 this week so that
I could design my battery boxes around it. I've bolted on my adapter
plate from Electro Automotive and went to bolt on the mounting bracket
(also from electro auto), which attaches to the tail end of the motor
and a cross-bar in the engine compartment, when I discovered that my
motor has no mounting holes.
The aft end of the motor (the end opposite the transmission; the end
with the commutator) has a tail shaft, four bolts that hold the face
onto the motor, four *tiny* holes (1/16th inch?), and no places to
attach the mount using a pair of 3/8" bolts. Even the little tiny
holes aren't spaced correctly to match up with my electro auto adapter.
Until today, I had thought I was just supposed to take out two of the
bolts that mount the aluminum face of the motor to the rest of the case
and replace them with longer ones, but alas, I was quite wrong, as
those holes don't line up either.
Has anyone else run into this problem? Any suggestions? I'm not a
machinist and I don't have the right tools to drill and tap the holes
myself.
If people need pictures, let me know and I'll go take some.
Thanks
-Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
you are lucky, 120V 550A curtis 500$ for the moment (new price is about 3
times this):
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=40155&item=7139727081&rd=1
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:53 PM
Subject: Controller Wanted
> Anyone have a 120V, 500+ Amp controller they'd like to sell?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Patrick Maston
> 1981 Jet Electrica
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Why don't you try some
discharge tests on one of your ThunderSkys at several different load
currents, and see how many amphours you get to some defined cutoff
voltage? Plot the points on a graph and see what their Peukert exponent
turns out to be.
Poor excuse, but basically, lack of time.
I believe Gary Graunke already did such tests
since has somewhat automated logging gear. If I recall though, his
exoeriments were aimed to cover many cells at the same discharge rate
to compare them and collect statistics, not the same cell at different
rates to determine Peukert value. I'll ask him if he can do it, as
modifying his setup is easier than for me to put together logging
hardware.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1700km in 24H with charge has been done in France (2001) with 2 electric
Citro�n Saxo relaying:
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Download/24HSaxo.pdf
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les v�hicules �lectriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
This was done back in 1975!!!
When I pick up my EV call the Transformer I from the Electric Fuel
Propulsion Company in Troy, Michigan, it had 1056 test miles on it. They
wanted to prove to all the critics that a EV can be driven 1000 miles in 24
hours.
This car had 300 AH lead cobalt cells that had the plates tie together at
the top and bottom. On a road course and or test track they drove the 1056
miles in 24 hours averaging 44 mph.
The car has a top speed of 92 mph at 6000 rpm in 4th gear with a ratio of
5.57:1. The battery pack was charge to 100+ percent at start to 1.320+
specific gravity.
About every hour of driving, the battery would be charge with a large off
board charging station starting at 300 AMPS!!! FOR 15 TO 20 MINUTES to 80
percent charge and then the drivers would go again.
It was also a endurance test to see if they can break down any components on
the EV. They had to replace one small 25 amp diode.
When I received the car, I drove it for 10 years, replacing only THREE
CELLS!! at a cost of $30.00 a cell. My driving here in Montana could be
call extreme by some EV drivers today. My daily driving to work was
starting from my home which is at a bottom of a long steep hill that is 3
miles long to my work site on top of hill.
I would pull about 600 amps at 60 mph going up this hill for about 3
minutes. The voltage lag was only to 170 volts on a 180 volt battery pack
that was CHARGE TO 2.77 VOLTS PER CELL OR ABOUT 250 VOLTS.
Ohh, it was great driving that EV in the winter time at -30 below going up
that hill, that was not plow yet very early in the morning passing all the
ICE's that was slipping and sliding all over the place. This car would walk
right up that hill.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: James Jarrett<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:13 AM
Subject: RE: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
True enough, but I look at it like this,
The farthest I have EVER driven a car was from Charlotte NC to Ft.
Lauderdale FL. It took me 12 hours +- and was something like 700
miles. I promptly got to my destination. I got to my destination at
about 8:00 pm. Had I plugged my car into a 50 amp charger, it would
have been completely recharged in about 8hours. I know *I* would not be
recharged in 8 hours.
I think any range over about 200-300 miles, while nice, and a selling
point even, is really overkill. Who drives 200-300 miles a day on a
regular basis?
I have a farm that is 35 miles from my house. My worst "day" driving I
drive to work (14 miles) the farm, (38 miles) and home (35 miles). Even
if while I am at the farm I run into town for lunch (15 mile round trip)
I have only driven a little over 100 miles, and except for while I was
at work, I could have charged at 15-20 amps between trips.
Couple this with a 30-50 amp 220 charger at home, and I could in theory
do this EVERY DAY FOR A WEEK without charging with an 800 mile range. I
could do it every day no problem with a 150 mile range.
I think about 300 miles is the "sweet spot" for EV's. Get them there
with reasonable (sub 12 hour) recharge times and you are set IMHO.
James
On Tue, 2005-03-08 at 09:57, Bill Dennis wrote:
> Refueling 170kWh wouldn't be trivial. To recharge in 8 hours, you'd
need to
> be pushing about 75A on a 220V line into them. 50A from a PFC-50 would
> probably take around 12 hours or so.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 7:23 AM
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Subject: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
>
> > Lithium might get you to your 1000 mile range, it would require about
> > 170 kWh worth of capacity in a well designed and executed vehicle.
> > Currently available Kokam Li-polymer are rated at 171Wh/kg, you would
> > need about 1000kg (2,200Lbs, just over 1 Ton). If you can still
> > achieve 6 miles per kWh of capacity this would yield 1000 miles with
20
> > to spare. The T-Zero and other modern BEV's can currently do this.
>
> They can do it because they aren't pushing around a ton of batteries.
Add
> all the other bits required by an EV (motor, controller, chasis, etc.)
and
> you are close to 2 tons (4,000 lbs)
> Achieving 6 miles per kwh at resonable speeds with a 4,000 lb vehicle is
> going to be challenging.
>
> Getting 1,000 mile range with todays technology is impractical, and
> uneccessary. 200-300 miles would be more than adequate, especially if
you
> could devise a rapid refueling method.
>
> I'm going to get optimistic and I'll bet we get affordable batteries
that
> can give us 200+ miles within 5 years. The Kokam LiPoly are very
> promising, though still a bit pricey.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
This is not an EV question, but it does have to do with AC motors and
controllers, so I thought that someone might be able to answer my questions.
I just got a old bandsaw (Moak, 36 inch, made in 1967). It has a Baldor 3
phase, 5 HP, 230/460V motor on it, with a GE 300 In line Mag starter switch. I
don't have 3 phase, so I can get a static phase converter for about $125 from
andersonconverters.com. But it will only give me about 3 HP instead of the 5 HP
of the motor, I also understand that it will really use amps. Or I can trade
out the motor for a new/used 5 hp, 220 V motor. It is a direct drive with a
keyed shaft, so I might need a shaft adapter.
Which is my best option? Use the existing motor and get a static converter or
get a new 1 phase motor?
Thanks for the help,
Rush
Tucson AZ
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.4 - Release Date: 3/7/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Patrick Maston wrote:
> 175/70-13: Sumitomo HTR 200 @ 51 PSI max
I'd get those. Should roll real nice when aired up all the way.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James and All,
Driving 300 miles you really need a break
anyways as it's about 4-6hrs to travel that distance.
I like a break every 200 or so miles or less.
But is carrying that much battery power
worthwhile? Besides costs of the batts, the energy
needed to carry it's weight around when you don't need
it plus the space it takes up and the structure needed
to carry it make it not worthwhile.
Much better is a small generator of about
4kw/1,000lbs vehicle along with 70-130 mile range
gives you unlimited range at a much lower costs and a
fuel mileage on the few times you need it of
80-125mpg! A small gen would only weigh about 100lbs
for a 2500lb EV so wouldn't burden an EV anywhere near
as much as even 50 miles worth of Li-ions in weight!
This small gen would make EV's much more
useful and allow only owning one car, saving much at a
very small cost, much less than the longer range batt
pack would be.
It could be run on biodiesel, ethanol, NG or
propane too for those really against oil use. The
energy to build, cart around a longer range batt pack
would be much greater than the small amount of fuel
used on the few times it would be needed.
All my future EV's will have a demountable
gen for long trips.
My goal is low cost driving overall which
EV's play a big roll as it so eff but a little
compromise can make them even better, more practical!
HTH,
jerry dycus
--- James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> True enough, but I look at it like this,
> The farthest I have EVER driven a car was from
> Charlotte NC to Ft.
> Lauderdale FL. It took me 12 hours +- and was
> something like 700
> miles. I promptly got to my destination. I got to
> my destination at
> about 8:00 pm. Had I plugged my car into a 50 amp
> charger, it would
> have been completely recharged in about 8hours. I
> know *I* would not be
> recharged in 8 hours.
>
> I think any range over about 200-300 miles, while
> nice, and a selling
> point even, is really overkill. Who drives 200-300
> miles a day on a
> regular basis?
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I just got a old bandsaw (Moak, 36 inch, made in 1967). It has a
Baldor 3 phase, 5 HP, 230/460V motor on it, with a GE 300 In line Mag
starter switch. I don't have 3 phase, so I can get a static phase
converter for about $125 from andersonconverters.com.
Here's a 5hp electronic inverter, but it's $560:
http://www.3-phaseconverter.com/64.html
-Frank
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I froogled around and found good ole EVparts.com to have the best
price at the time. I bought the 450 amp, 72 volt version.
There is a significant error in the manual that will cause
frustration. It says that the unit can be bench programmed powered
from a 12 volt battery. This is true for the lower voltage units (I
have a 48 volt 400 amp AXE on my GoBig scooter) but not this one. A
minimum of 24 volts is required to light off the processor.
John
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:09:52 -0700, "David Chapman"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>John,
>Do you have a source for the controller you found to be a good match? I have
>a C-Car that I will be getting on the road soon, was planning to start
>looking for a controller. Thanks David Chapman.
>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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Can you use a band clamp (Similar to a hose clamp) to attach the motor case
to the bracket? Does the bracket support weight or is it simply an
anti-rotation mount? Could you weld studs to the motor case to line up with
the holes in the bracket?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:25 AM
Subject: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
*sigh* Yet another bump in the road to having an electric vehicle...
I was all set to hoist my 9" ADC into my Porsche 914 this week so that I
could design my battery boxes around it. I've bolted on my adapter plate
from Electro Automotive and went to bolt on the mounting bracket (also
from electro auto), which attaches to the tail end of the motor and a
cross-bar in the engine compartment, when I discovered that my motor has
no mounting holes.
The aft end of the motor (the end opposite the transmission; the end with
the commutator) has a tail shaft, four bolts that hold the face onto the
motor, four *tiny* holes (1/16th inch?), and no places to attach the mount
using a pair of 3/8" bolts. Even the little tiny holes aren't spaced
correctly to match up with my electro auto adapter. Until today, I had
thought I was just supposed to take out two of the bolts that mount the
aluminum face of the motor to the rest of the case and replace them with
longer ones, but alas, I was quite wrong, as those holes don't line up
either.
Has anyone else run into this problem? Any suggestions? I'm not a
machinist and I don't have the right tools to drill and tap the holes
myself.
If people need pictures, let me know and I'll go take some.
Thanks
-Ben
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I am using an Alltrax. I found the manual and in case anyone else was
wondering it states full on at 4.7k.
Too bad, I thought I might have found some free horsepower hiding, guess
not. Thanks for the help.
-Garret
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: potbox tolerance
Maki, Garret wrote:
> I have a Magura twist grip pot for my motorcycle. I measured it the
> other day and it is actually a 4.7k ohm pot. Should I be concerned
> that I am not getting fully to 5K?
The Curtis controllers specify 4.4k as "full throttle", so you should be
ok. I'm not sure about other brands of controller.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Strange, I have the same controller. My manual said it can be programmed
off a 9v battery which I couldn't get to work, but I did get it to work off
a 12V battery. It did just come off the charger though.
-Garret
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 1:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: C-Cars AXE? controller
I froogled around and found good ole EVparts.com to have the best
price at the time. I bought the 450 amp, 72 volt version.
There is a significant error in the manual that will cause
frustration. It says that the unit can be bench programmed powered
from a 12 volt battery. This is true for the lower voltage units (I
have a 48 volt 400 amp AXE on my GoBig scooter) but not this one. A
minimum of 24 volts is required to light off the processor.
John
On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 22:09:52 -0700, "David Chapman"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>John,
>Do you have a source for the controller you found to be a good match? I
have
>a C-Car that I will be getting on the road soon, was planning to start
>looking for a controller. Thanks David Chapman.
>
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.johngsbbq.com
http://neonjohn.blogspot.com <-- NEW!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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Which controller are you using and about how much does the bike weigh? What
is your gearing. My bike weighs around 800 lbs with me on it. I have the
48V 400amp alltrax and 14 to 41 gearing. I am happy with the performance.
Acceleration is accetable, perhaps a little slow for a motorcycle, but
easily as good as most cars, and I have about a 60mph top end.
You realize that if you want quicker acceleration you need more amps, or
lower gearing, and if you want more top end speed you need higher volts or
higher gearing right?
damon
From: "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: potbox tolerance
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2005 14:52:12 -0600
I am using an Alltrax. I found the manual and in case anyone else was
wondering it states full on at 4.7k.
Too bad, I thought I might have found some free horsepower hiding, guess
not. Thanks for the help.
-Garret
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: potbox tolerance
Maki, Garret wrote:
> I have a Magura twist grip pot for my motorcycle. I measured it the
> other day and it is actually a 4.7k ohm pot. Should I be concerned
> that I am not getting fully to 5K?
The Curtis controllers specify 4.4k as "full throttle", so you should be
ok. I'm not sure about other brands of controller.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Wouldn't the lower final resistance mean that the motor still gets a little
juice even when all the way off?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold S.
Hulbert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:52 PM
Subject: RE: potbox tolerance
I am using an Alltrax. I found the manual and in case anyone else was
wondering it states full on at 4.7k.
Too bad, I thought I might have found some free horsepower hiding, guess
not. Thanks for the help.
-Garret
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: potbox tolerance
Maki, Garret wrote:
I have a Magura twist grip pot for my motorcycle. I measured it the
other day and it is actually a 4.7k ohm pot. Should I be concerned
that I am not getting fully to 5K?
The Curtis controllers specify 4.4k as "full throttle", so you should be
ok. I'm not sure about other brands of controller.
--
"The two most common elements in the universe
are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Thanks for your response.
The mount is a 90-degree welded steel piece with angle pieces on the
sides to add rigidity. The engine/tranny combo in the 914 has a total
of four bolts holding it in the car -- two on the far end of the
transmission at the rear of the car, and this piece, at the front of
the motor ("front" meaning the part of the motor closest to the front
of the car). It's definitely needed to hold the motor up, though
*maybe* two tranny bolts could hold it temporarily if they were tight
enough. I doubt a band clamp would work very well, since my
understanding is that it wouldn't do a very good job preventing
rotation, and there's really nothing else in the engine compartment to
which one could mount the motor. I would have a very tough time trying
to machine a proper support that would attach to a band clamp, but if
it turns out that's the only solution...
-Ben
On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:46 PM, Dave wrote:
Can you use a band clamp (Similar to a hose clamp) to attach the motor
case to the bracket? Does the bracket support weight or is it simply
an anti-rotation mount? Could you weld studs to the motor case to line
up with the holes in the bracket?
David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
- Harold
S. Hulbert
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:25 AM
Subject: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
*sigh* Yet another bump in the road to having an electric vehicle...
I was all set to hoist my 9" ADC into my Porsche 914 this week so
that I could design my battery boxes around it. I've bolted on my
adapter plate from Electro Automotive and went to bolt on the
mounting bracket (also from electro auto), which attaches to the tail
end of the motor and a cross-bar in the engine compartment, when I
discovered that my motor has no mounting holes.
The aft end of the motor (the end opposite the transmission; the end
with the commutator) has a tail shaft, four bolts that hold the face
onto the motor, four *tiny* holes (1/16th inch?), and no places to
attach the mount using a pair of 3/8" bolts. Even the little tiny
holes aren't spaced correctly to match up with my electro auto
adapter. Until today, I had thought I was just supposed to take out
two of the bolts that mount the aluminum face of the motor to the
rest of the case and replace them with longer ones, but alas, I was
quite wrong, as those holes don't line up either.
Has anyone else run into this problem? Any suggestions? I'm not a
machinist and I don't have the right tools to drill and tap the holes
myself.
If people need pictures, let me know and I'll go take some.
Thanks
-Ben
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Lee Hart kirjoitti:
Lee Hart wrote:
Lead-acids fit Peukert's equation pretty well. Other types not so
well, though still well enough so that Peukert's equation is a
better fit than assuming no Peukert effect at all (i.e. no change
in amphour capacity regardless of the discharge current).
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Lee, what makes you think so? Any data or experiences/observations?
Did you do any such tests with your TS-LP90's ?
Yes, I did. As soon as you define a minimum voltage cutoff point (other
that 0v/cell), then current affects the amphours at which the cell is by
definition "dead". And that means Peukert's equation is a more accurate
predictor than a straight-line AmpHours = Amps x Hours equation.
Ahh.. Yes. This cut off voltage is quite a thing. I was just going to
punch these lines in this list. You were faster Lee...
I know about TS cells and when we are looking in to the battery it self
we will see what is going on in there.
If cell is say 10 celsius when starting the discharge say 3C. It will
heat only little during the discharge and voltage drops to 2,5V after 18
minutes or so. We stop the discharge. Now what is going on with
battery... voltage rises again. If you keep dischargign the cell and
lighten the throttle to keep the voltage in 2,5 V you will end up with
rated capasity.
What then ? There is still 10 to 15 % left in the battery. Going to 2v
has not damaged cells when going there once now and then. But it is
scary place to be. Voltage can drop like a rock to 0V and under. Then
cell dies on your hands. No resurrection. And it will happen FAST.
So the actual meaning of "empty" is not a voltage value. Nor is the
"full" either. The operating area cell has its best lifetime is
somewhat indiviual per cell. I have no idea does other battery
chemistries actually behave like this. I'm talking about LiCo-cells now.
Not LiMn. They are again little different.
One thing... If cells are discharged with lower current and regened
frequently cell will heat nicely up to 50 celsius. Then the fun begings.
I've dragged 6C nicely out of TS cells. You just need to preheat them
up. Nowadays I play nice boy and prefer using supercaps. Much longer
lifetime for Lions. But for racing heated TS is light, cheap and powerful.
Are you sure that Ah reduction is not due need to cut off battery
eatrlier because of increased voltage sag and so extracted Ah
is lower but remaining Ah are still in the battery?
Peukert's equation does not say anything about the *cause* of the
amphour reduction -- it just fits an equation to a curve of what
*actually* happens.
In most batteries, the Peukert effect is caused by the cell's internal
resistance. The internal resistance is not stable; it changes with
current, temperature, state of charge, age, charge-discharge cycles,
etc. In lead-acids, this resistance changes more than for most other
types, because the acid gets used up by the discharge reactions.
Well, this is the case for lead as well, but to extract all
Ah from lead (20h rate) requires single amps rate - totally
unusable for EV purpose. With lithium you may have slow
down from 10C to, say, 3C to extract all Ah, and 3C is still
high enough for EV use (if the pack is not undersized).
The effect is there, but it's not as drastic as you think. Look at it
this way: Normal lead-acids have Peukert exponents in the range of
1.10-1.40. Nicads are more like 1.04-1.12 (i.e. the best lead-acids can
be better than the worst nicads). I've only tested a few small Nimh;
they are 1.10-1.20. And I've only tested the one set of ThunderSky
LiIons; they were 1.15-1.20.
Now, I know the LiIons I have are not representative of "good"
ThunderSkys; but they are all I have to test. Why don't you try some
discharge tests on one of your ThunderSkys at several different load
currents, and see how many amphours you get to some defined cutoff
voltage? Plot the points on a graph and see what their Peukert exponent
turns out to be.
I hope you'll get some good TS cells soon Lee.
-jukka
fevt.com
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