EV Digest 4166
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Comet CVT/Torque converters in a lightweight ev?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: potbox tolerance
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Jeep EV Update
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Comet CVT/Torque converters in a lightweight ev?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Reality, was RE: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) RE: Comet CVT/Torque converters in a lightweight ev?
by "Tim Medeck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Fwd: Re: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Jeep EV Update DC/DC is DEAD
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by Bryan B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EV1 Vigil - Updated contact list for GM Execs and CA State Attorney
by "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) EV1 Vigil - Latest News from Chelsea Sexton
by "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Tire pressure for lower rolling resistance?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Chico EAA meeting March 12th
by "Chuck Alldrin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Controller Wanted
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Tire pressure for lower rolling resistance?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Peukerts for TS LI-Ions
by Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
I was under the impression that this was yet another "proof" project.
1000 miles with a ton of tomorrows Lithium cells isn't very practical,
but it is plausable, I would think that you could keep the total
vehicle weight under 1000 Lbs since it's a purpose built car anyway.
That's a battery/vehicle ratio of 2/3.
Like others have mentioned, 300 miles is about all you "need", It's
also about all the current grid (homes) can resanably handle charging.
Personally, I like the idea of starting out with the new 50A 26650's
for a 1120 cell, 10kWh, 60 miles, 200kW, 222Lbs pack at $5-$10K.
Add the new 22,000 cycle, 6min charge tricks for 1,200K mile life.
L8r
Ryan
PS. I sometimes drive 2000 miles (once in 26 hours) but that is
probably still best suited to high effeciency gas hybrids. But
there's no reason we couldn't have both in a single vehicle.
Think a PHEV-60 Insight.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But, if you were to re-discharge the 2.0C test at 0.5C you would
most likely end up with the same total capacity taken from the cell.
What do you base this conclusion on?
My admitidly less than perfect tests with some 1Ah Li-ion cells...
Take ANY Lead Acid battery, discharge it at a 2C rate until its voltage
reaches some arbitrary level of depletion, then remove the load, or reduce
it to 0.5C and you will see the same thing---the voltage rebounds.
Of course, but aren't we talking about much higher discharge rates, like
at the low end, pulling 500Amps from a 50Ah Optima, that's 10C. Perhaps
some of it has to do with the capacity vs C rates, this ratio is more
extreme for PbA's, I haven't tested high rate Li with a similar ratio.
This doesn't imply anything about HOW MUCH energy is left in the battery.
Right, but I was under the impression that at high rates PbA will only
deliver a fraction of it's lower rate nameplate capacity. After such
a high rate discharge you can't lower the rate and get the other half
of it's capacity out because it's lost due to Puckerts.
You CAN'T have it both ways---you can't talk about the Lithium battery's
"voltage sag" (read: I*R drop, i.e. internal POWER LOSS) and then also
conclude that the energy delivered to a load by a Lithium battery is the
same at all discharge levels (i.e. no Peukert effect).
I'm not saying (though I may have appeared to have been implying) that
Lithium has Zero Puckert, rather it's very small (unmeasureable by me)
in the low rate cells that I'm testing, it may be more apparent in high
rate cells like the new Li-ion and current Li-P.
If a Lithium battery has internal resistance (Rint), and they do, then:
Pload = Pbatt - Pint ; where Pint = I * Rint
Since energy is equal to the integral of the power, the longer the current
flows at a higher rate, the more energy is lost to battery heat.
The more energy is lost, the less is deliverable.
The less internal resistance, the less affected by load a battery will be.
LiPos are not immune to this---in fact, internal resistance can be
relatively high as with the Thunder Sky batteries.
In my notes on the web I've recorded 15-20 degF rises durring discharge,
but that seems to high. I'll take a closser look at the original notes.
In the case of the 96 cell scooter pack I don't appear to have any temp
rise data on the web. I seem to recall though that the rise on a warm
day was less than 10 degF, and most of that I attributed to solar heat
from the black toolbox. It got up to 111 degF while in the sun but not
in use at all, I started keeping it in the shade after that.
.oO( Need to paint the box white or silver )
Shrugs, I suppose I could measure the cell resistance with the current
draw and voltage drop? Maybe that would help, what's the formula?
Since Pint = Rint * I^2, the internal loss is proportional to the square of
the battery current.
So then higher rate Li cells may very well exibit higher Puckert losses.
I suspect that they are still much lower then PbA and Ni chemestries.
It seems obvious to me that the square effect of the battery current on
internal energy loss is where the exponential impact current has on battery
capacity in the Peukert equation.
Again, in applying the Peukert model to the Kokam battery you described, I
found the logarithmic model to fit fairly well, with the right parameters,
from 0.5 - 7C.
That's a pretty broad range.
My cells are LGQ A&TBi prismatic Li-ion cell phone cells, 2C rated,
4C max. I believe they are similar to the sony or panasonic 18650's.
I don't have any of the kokam Li-Pol cells, too expensive.
I would be curious to see any test results which might support the claim
that this may be indeed true:
If you run the 10C discharge, with lots of sag, you get 0.99Ah out.
Now if you were to continue to discharge at 7C you get another 0.37Ah.
Again at 5C=0.08Ah, Again at 3C=0.05Ah, One last time at .5C=0.11Ah.
Add them all up, 0.99+0.37+0.08+0.05+0.11 and you get Whala! 1.6Ah!
To make the test accurate (and I have a 290mah 3.7v Kokam I could play games
with as well), do the test as follows:
1) Fully charge the battery and discharge it at 0.5, 2.0, 5.0, 7.0 and 10.0C
levels to the desired discharge voltage and note the time to discharge.
2) Recharge and repeat these tests to confirm validity of the values.
3) Next, recharge, then dischare at say, 5C to the same discharge voltage.
Note the time to discharge. Without recharging, continue from this point
with a discharge rate of 2C to the same discharge voltage. Note the time to
discharge. Recharge and repeat this test from 7.0 or some other level, or,
attempt something like a 7.0, 5.0, 2.0, 0.5 discharge sequence and note the
times to discharge to the test point.
Use the times measured at the current rates to compute the AH delivered in
each case.
I've done some of this already...
0.1C 940mAh (89.5%) % of nameplate capacity (1050 mAh).
1.0C 836mAh (86 %)
2.0C 749mAh (71 %)
2.5C 659mAh (63 %)
There were also a few cycles that include multiple discharges at
decreasing rates. Cycle 60 and Cycle 99 are interesting.(v_see link_v)
The charger I'm using is a "high end" computerized Hobby charger, it
measured mAh, time, temp, aswell as average discharge voltage => Wh.
LGQ link & http://www.definity-systems.net/Transportation/EV/Li-ion/
There is a graph and table for the 167 cycles on the test cell, and
the 23 cycles on the full scooter pack. Ambient temp still appears
to play a large roll in the capacity. The test cell is discharged
at 2C (2A for a ~1Ah), which is higher than the average scooter load.
Then conclude whatever can be concluded.
Remember, even a Lead Acid battery can discharge to its 20% voltage level at
2C, then, changing the load to 0.5C, get more energy out of the battery
before the voltage again reaches the same voltage level---we've all probably
'limped home' on electrons by doing this...
LiPos are not unique in this respect.
I'll have to go perform the above test that you mention and I eluded
to in my previous post and see what happens, I though I already had..
Also not that I have some data on the "Dunno" cells which are "Rated"
identically as the LQG cells, but are obviousely not the same. These
cells demonstrate much lower capacity, rate capabilities, and probably
have much higher internal resistance and Puckert characteristics.
( But I'm mostly interested in the "Good" mass produced Li cells )
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm bouncing around the idea of a light weight 3 wheeler EV probably 48 volts
an ETek and matching PM millipak controller. Probably not much heavier than a
similar motorbike. If I use a single gear ratio even though it's light I'm
concerned not having any low end accelleration and also still have enough to go
50mph or so.
Someone suggested a comet torque converters that say they act as a CVT. Looking
up I think the Comet 44 Magnum it gives an 18hp max and shows 1.24:1 - 2.83:1
ratio at engaged 800rpm - 4000 rpm. Note sure if that means at lower RPMs it
doesn't turn or from 0-800 rpms it moves through it's range. I wrote them for
more info but I was wondering if anyone on the list had used something like it
before? Seems to easy to be a solution. Couldn't find anything in the evalbum
about it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Alltrax software allows you to program 'throttle
down' and 'throttle up'. Playing with these settings
should solve your problems.
Steve Richardson at Alltrax could comment further.
Rod
--- "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dave, I've only been taking about the full on state.
> The throttle still
> closes all the way, so when it is off, it is off and
> no current is coming
> out.
>
> I want to tweak the throttle curve a little because
> I feel like it doesn't
> really go until it's twisted a good amount. Wait, I
> guess that won't work
> since if I remember right there is a actually a
> mechanical problem where the
> resistance didn't start changing until the good bit
> into the twist. It may
> have been designed this way to have a safe margin
> where it is off as the
> grip is in its rest position.
>
> Still, as I turn it, it feels like "nothing,
> nothing, Bam here we go."
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dave
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 2:07 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: potbox tolerance
>
> Wouldn't the lower final resistance mean that the
> motor still gets a little
> juice even when all the way off?
>
> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
> Children need love, especially when they do not
> deserve it.
>
> - Harold S.
> Hulbert
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Maki, Garret" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 12:52 PM
> Subject: RE: potbox tolerance
>
>
> >I am using an Alltrax. I found the manual and in
> case anyone else was
> > wondering it states full on at 4.7k.
> > Too bad, I thought I might have found some free
> horsepower hiding, guess
> > not. Thanks for the help.
> > -Garret
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Lee Hart
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:31 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: potbox tolerance
> >
> > Maki, Garret wrote:
> >> I have a Magura twist grip pot for my motorcycle.
> I measured it the
> >> other day and it is actually a 4.7k ohm pot.
> Should I be concerned
> >> that I am not getting fully to 5K?
> >
> > The Curtis controllers specify 4.4k as "full
> throttle", so you should be
> > ok. I'm not sure about other brands of controller.
> > --
> > "The two most common elements in the universe
> > are hydrogen and stupidity." -- Harlan Ellison
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could replace the fuse with a light bulb ( or maybe a bulb and fuse
in series) then watch the bulb as you turn things on.
Maybe a PTC has gone out or a cap has dried up causeing to much inrush
on the DC -DC during startup. Perhaps the old controller pulled down
the system voltage slowly before it's load hit the "line" and the zilla
is just coming up a little faster.
Anyway the light bulb will allow you to put an ammeter on it and see
whats up.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.3 - Release Date: 3/7/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was all set to hoist my 9" ADC into my Porsche 914 this week so that I
could design my battery boxes around it. I've bolted on my adapter plate
from Electro Automotive and went to bolt on the mounting bracket (also
from electro auto), which attaches to the tail end of the motor and a
cross-bar in the engine compartment, when I discovered that my motor has
no mounting holes.
The aft end of the motor (the end opposite the transmission; the end with
the commutator) has a tail shaft, four bolts that hold the face onto the
motor, four *tiny* holes (1/16th inch?),
These are what hole the brush rigging to the case from the inside.
and no places to attach the mount using a pair of 3/8" bolts Even the
little tiny holes aren't spaced correctly to match up with my electro
auto adapter. Until today, I had thought I was just supposed to take out
two of the bolts that mount the aluminum face of the motor to the rest of
the case and replace them with longer ones, but alas, I was quite wrong,
as those holes don't line up either.
Where did you get your motor? These motors have come standard with two
mounting pads, 90 degrees apart, drilled and tapped 3/8-16, on the
anti-drive end for many years now. Our mount was designed to mate up to
these factory mounting holes.
I would suggest buying just the correct factory end bell from whoever sold
you the motor. You can probably get this without the brush rigging and
just swap yours over. Any of the other suggestions offered will only lead
to grief.
We always recommend, whenevery you have a problem with a part, go FIRST to
the people you bought the parts from. They will be in the best position to
help you.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hastings [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Someone suggested a comet torque converters that say they act
> as a CVT. Looking up I think the Comet 44 Magnum it gives an
> 18hp max and shows 1.24:1 - 2.83:1 ratio at engaged 800rpm -
> 4000 rpm. Note sure if that means at lower RPMs it doesn't
> turn or from 0-800 rpms it moves through it's range.
The sheave that attaches to the motor shaft includes a centrifugal
clutch so that when used with an ICE engine the engine can spin the
sheave while idling without turning the belt and the driven sheave.
Between 0-800rpm the sheave halves move closer together until they
engage the belt. Most models allow you to tune the engagement
characteristic by installing different weights in the clutch, however, I
don't know how much lower you can tune it. You can tune the 'shift'
characteristic by installing different springs in the driven sheave and
by changing the preload on them.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
--- David Navas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jerry Dycus correctly points out:
> >Much better is a small generator of about
> >4kw/1,000lbs vehicle along with 70-130 mile range
> >gives you unlimited range at a much lower costs and
> a
> >fuel mileage on the few times you need it of
> >80-125mpg!
>
> I agree, but you miss the purpose of pipe dreams.
> :)
> There are many ways to push the limits of
> technology.
I'd rather do something than dream about it.
> One way is to produce affordable, electric cars.
> Another way is to build wicked-fast electric cars.
> Another way is to build extreme-range vehicles.
> Or rapid-charge vehicles.
> ...the most efficient vehicle.
> ...the lightest vehicle.
> etc.
As long as you are flexable there is little reason
not to get almost all this in an EV.
Get a GT-40 kitcar body and finish it in
composites into a mono-coque with 120vdc of Orbitals
and 200 amphr li-ions with a Zilla 2k and 2 8"warp
motors would give you very fast, lightweight of under
2,000lbs, range of over 200 miles with a 7kw, 100lb
gen give you over 125mpg and could be built for around
$35k.
Or if you go to 240-288v of Orbitals you could get
70mile+ range under batt and wicked fast for around
$25k to build with unlimited range with the gen at
125mpg..
Or use a composite version of my e-woody with a
SRE 900 amp controller at 96vdc and 200 amphrs of
li-ions and 2 36v motors and be wicked fast, handle
great with 200+ mile EV range with a 6kw gen and get
unlimited range about 125mpg at a built cost of about
$23k or $15k with Orbitals or 26amphr Hawkers and
27tmh's instead of the li-ions for a 100 mile range at
about 12-1400lbs and still be in the 13sec range.
No unobtainium needed.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
>
> And there are battery technologies you can point to
> that, in theory,
> could make most of those happen. Just not all at
> the same time.
> There are lithium batteries today with 50C charge
> rates -- build a
> vehicle with 100kwh, and tell Rich you need a 5MW
> charger. :>
> Of course, those batteries are of the micro-variety,
> and likely won't
> scale.
> There are lithium-air batteries with theoretical,
> cathode-less energy
> densities of a tad over 11kwh/kg (very close to
> gasoline). But, I bet
> their rate of charge and discharge stinks (and the
> ones I've read
> about are getting between 1kwh and 1.5kwh/kg).
> There are lithium systems whose discharge rates are
> over 100C.
>
> And then, there are the batteries that we can buy.
>
> And then, there are affordable batteries :)
>
> I see nothing wrong with someone building a 1000mi
> range electric car,
> if that's what they want to do. I don't think
> anyone believes that
> to be currently practical. I get a fantastic kick
> out of seeing all
> the wicked-fast cars built and raced by people on
> this list, but I
> also consider a car that needs to be hauled to and
> from the track to be
> impractical.
>
> Fundamentally, I agree with you, Jerry -- I like
> what Greg Hanssen has
> done with the Prius. It wasn't clear to me how he
> runs the car at freeway
> speed on electric, but the EVWorld interview didn't
> cover it (or I
> missed it). Regardless, plug-in hybrids make a lot
> of sense, in my
> opinion, given the current set of tradeoffs.
>
> That doesn't mean I wouldn't want to put a 300HP
> monster into my
> Saturn coupe at some point, though. Sometimes,
> practical isn't the
> end goal. I'd equally applaud the madman that took
> an Elise, stuck an
> Exige, carbon-fiber body on it, and stuffed as much
> electric horsepower
> in there as would fit. The fact that it would cost
> as much as or more
> than the last TZero just means I won't be the person
> doing that.
>
> <shrug> :>
>
> Waiting for FEVT pricing :) :),
>
> -Dave
>
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
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--- Begin Message ---
Did you let the shipper know that this would be a hazardous material shipment?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan B" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:58 PM
Subject: BB-600 Nicad Cells
> Hi,
> Anyone in the northern california looking to buy some? Shipping for 300
> is over 525, but for more cells coming to california, the cost-per-unit
> should go down.
> Interested? We would pay Tim individually, then pay for the total
> shipping using freightquote.com. Could store them here if needed for
> pickup? I get a sizable discount through them. Or can someone get even
> more of a discount? Any better ideas?
> Bryan
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Someone suggested a comet torque converters that say they act as a CVT.
Looking up I think the Comet 44 Magnum it gives an 18hp max and shows
1.24:1 - 2.83:1 ratio at engaged 800rpm - 4000 rpm. Note sure if that means
at lower RPMs it doesn't turn or from 0-800 rpms it moves through it's
range. I wrote them for more info but I was wondering if anyone on the list
had used something like it before? Seems to easy to be a solution. Couldn't
find anything in the evalbum about it.
My Freeway has a comet torque converter. It turns at all RPM, but the cones
don't start to close until 800 RPM. It works okay for forward, but reverse
stinks because the cones don't close when you reverse the rotation of the
converter. It backs up, but with a lot of slipping and jumping of the belt.
It was used on all Freeways, but the vast majority of them were ICE powered
and had no reverse.
I suppose you could cure the reverse slipping with a belt tensioner that
would be electrically or manually actuated.
Tim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> These motors have come standard with two
> mounting pads, 90 degrees apart, drilled and tapped 3/8-16, on the
> anti-drive end for many years now. Our mount was designed to mate up to
> these factory mounting holes.
>
I have the same motor with the same filled in holes. The car it came from was
converted around
1991. The motor was attached directly to transmission and "belted" around the
middle with a heavy
metal strap fit around the waist of the motor. Two bolts secured the strap to
rubber mounts in the
floor pan.
There are two mounting pads on the commutator end case but they aren't drilled.
If it's safe to
drill I'll do it myself. Seems beefy enough. Is a non drilled end case
different from a drilled
one such that it is too weak to act as a mounting surface? I'm planning on
using a cross brace to
support the motor so drilling these holes would be the cat's pajamas! I'll
probably use some kind
of rubber bushing between the motor and the cross brace. Haven't figured that
one out yet.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Otmar wrote:
Were you driving when it blew? If yes then what did you set your Low
Battery Voltage cutback to?
Low battery voltage is set to 110 volts. Note that the batteries sagged
down to this voltage a few times before (when I was using the Raptor)
and it never caused any problems with the DC/DC
Is your DC-DC wired so it is always on, 100% of the time, or does it
have it's own relay for turning it on?
It was wired to always be on (set the LV pot to 13.2 volts). When the
ignition was on, the DC/DC would then kick up to the HV pot setting
(which was 14.4 volts).
So this morning I replaced the input fuse again. The DC/DC came up to
the proper voltage and held there for about 30 seconds. Then, without
the least bit of warning, *large sparks* flew out of the front of the
unit, and the input fuse blew again! I disassembled the unit expecting
to see huge zorch marks or something but saw nothing. There is no
evidence of anything gone wrong. But now my DC/DC is as DEAD as a dead
DC/DC gets. It will NOT power up at all. Mark looked at it and I'm
afraid he is right in thinking that it was the MOSFETs in the unit that
blew up. As the chips are not visible without separating the heatsink
from the control board, I haven't looked at them yet. All I know is that
something went ZORCH and yet everything mounted to the top of the
control board looks fine.
Ughhh... what terrible terrible timing for my DC/DC to blow up. The
weather is finally good outside this week so I could be driving the
Cherokee everyday, but the little hawker 12 volt battery just can't
power the 12 volt system by itself.
I guess I need to look for a new DC/DC converter (I really want one that
outputs at least 50 amps)...
--
-Nick
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
---------------------------
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--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
Watering the Safts is the same as the Marathon's. Unscrew the valve
cover, and water with syringe, then repeat on next cell. It's not bad
on my motorcycle, because there are not that many cells and they are
easy to get at. For most cars it would be a real bummer though.
I was actually wondering how often you have to water them. Weekly?
Monthly? About as often as a flooded lead acid or more?
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
I went back to freightquote and checkbox hazardous material, seems all
they wanted contact info.
I increased the shipping weight to 2000 lbs, 4 pallets (4'x4')
non-stackable gives a quote of $865. Not too bad compared to $525 for
half the weight. Cuts shipping to $432.50 /1000Lbs.
I would have to pick up from Old Dominion terminal unless I pay extra
(maybe a good idea considering 2000Lbs - about $75-100 for delivery)
More weight may offer a greater individual $ savings on shipping.
I can firm up the quote once the number of cells being transported is
known.
Why do the good buys always seem to be located on the east coast?
----
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Did you let the shipper know that this would be a hazardous material shipment?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan B" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:58 PM
Subject: BB-600 Nicad Cells
Hi,
Anyone in the northern california looking to buy some? Shipping for 300
is over 525, but for more cells coming to california, the cost-per-unit
should go down.
Interested? We would pay Tim individually, then pay for the total
shipping using freightquote.com. Could store them here if needed for
pickup? I get a sizable discount through them. Or can someone get even
more of a discount? Any better ideas?
Bryan
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--- Begin Message ---
Hey everyone!
Here is the latest contact list from Chelsea Sexton whose maintaining vigil for
the last EV-1s.
We appreciate everyone's efforts so far.
GM Contacts:
Richard Wagoner, Jr.
President and CEO
General Motors
300 Renaissance Center
Mail Code 482-C39-B40
Detroit, MI 48265
(313) 556-5000 phone
(313) 556-5108 fax
Robert Lutz
Vice Chairman, Product Development
General Motors
300 Renaissance Center
Mail Code 482-C39-B40
Detroit, MI 48265
(313) 556-5000 phone
(517) 272-3709 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Beth Lowery
Vice President of Environment and Energy
General Motors
300 Renaissance Center
Mail Code 482-C39-B40
Detroit, MI 48265
Robert Purcell
Executive Director
General Motors Advanced Technology Vehicles
1996 Technology Drive
Troy, MI 48007-7083
(248) 680-5509 phone
(248) 680-5600 fax
Ken Stewart
Marketing Director, New Ventures
General Motors Advanced Technology Vehicles
1996 Technology Drive
Troy, MI 48007-7083
(248) 680-5509 phone
(248) 680-5600 fax
Jill Banaszynski
Program Manager, EV1, S10 E, NEV
General Motors Advanced Technology Vehicles
1996 Technology Drive
Troy, MI 48007-7083
(248) 680-5509 phone
(248) 680-5600 fax
Dave Barthmuss
Manager, Environment and Energy Communications
General Motors
505 Marin St. #216
Thousand Oaks, CA 91360
(805) 373-9572 phone
(805) 373-9572 fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chris Preuss
Director of GM Communications, Washington DC.
Phone: (202) 775-5008
Cell: 202-329-7011
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
CA State Attorney General
Rich Magisin (AG Resources Attorney): 213-897-2609
Mary Hackenbractch: 510-622-2140
CARB
Tom Jennins(Attorney): 916-323-9608
Chip Gribben
http://www.saveev1.org
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Today has been a big day. A major Washington newspaper is doing a story within
the next couple of days.
We did get an article in the Daily Breeze on Sunday (which covers LAX to LA
Harbor) http://www.dailybreeze.com/columnists/bogert/1339217.html
And the Voice Yourself piece got picked up and reprinted by EV World:
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=815
But here's my personal favorite of the day... Wednesday I will be doing
Eco-talk w/ Betsy Rosenberg, on Air America. Up against GM Spokesman Dave
Barthmuss
Chelsea Sexton
Save the EV1
http://www.saveev1.org
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> This was done back in 1975!!!
-snip-
> About every hour of driving, the battery would be charge with a large off
> board charging station starting at 300 AMPS!!! FOR 15 TO 20 MINUTES to 80
> percent charge and then the drivers would go again.
Read the original post.
Driving 1000 miles in one day with hourly charging is ENTIRELY different
to driving 1000 miles on *ONE CHARGE*
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----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Maston<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: Tire pressure for lower rolling resistance?
OK, thanks for that. But which of the two tires I specified will have
lower rolling resistance?
Thanks,
Patrick
You will have to weigh your EV front to rear and calculated the weight on
each wheel. The closer the weight is to the maximum weight of the tire, will
have the lowest resistance.
Lets say you have a tire rated for 50 PSI at 1000 lbs and you have 1200 lbs
on that tire, then it will have a higher resistance than 1000 lbs on that tire
because you will have too much deflection.
Normally the lower PSI tire at the same weight will ride harsher because the
side walls are more stiffer. My Dunlap tires at 65 PSI rating has a less
stiffer sides which balloon out more, than the GoodYears I had on that was
rated a 40 PSI at 2500 lbs.
Do not used a nylon/steel belted type tire, as they will tend to become out
of round while they are setting. It is best to used the new poly belt type.
Roland
Try to get as close as possible.
On my EV, I have 65 PSI at 2500 lbs rated tires of which I have 2376 lbs on
each rear tires and 1188 lbs on each front tire.
Therefore:
(65 x 2376)/2500 = about 62 lbs on the rear and
(65 x 1188)/2500 = about 31 lbs on the front.
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 3/8/05 3:34:13 PM >>>
The tire pressure for a certain weight per wheel is the calculation of
the deflection rate of the tire.
A standard deflection rate is about 5 percent of the side wall height
of the tire, which is measure from the road surface to the lower rim of
the wheel.
For Example:
If the rating of a tire is 50 PSI at 1000 lbs then:
1. Jack the tire off the road surface.
2. Air up the tire to 50 PSI.
3. Let the tire down until it just touches the road surface
4. Measure from the road surface to the bottom of the
wheel rim. Lets say it is 5 inches.
5. Take 5 percent of 5 inches or is 0.25 inches.
6. Let the total weight of the tire on the road.
7. Measure again, and if it is 4.75 inches, then you have
0.25 inch deflection and the weight is at 1000 lbs on
that wheel.
If you have too much deflection, than the tire type is wrong. With too
much deflection at high speeds for long period of time, the tire wire
overheat.
If you are driving at lower speeds or short period of time at highway
speeds, you could get by with a higher deflection rate of 0.50 inch.
Large semi rigs used about 0.385 deflection rate on there 20 inch tires
for highway driving.
Also how rough a ride do you want. A low deflection rated will give
you a harsh ride, but the tire will last longer.
Or if you want a softer ride, for town driving only, a deflection rate
of up to 0.75 will work. This is what they did to those Firestone Tires
when the car manufacture tire specific a low PSI at 22 lbs for a soft
ride, but the tire could not withstand the higher deflection rated at
higher speeds. The air pressure recommended by the Firestone was at
least 32 lbs.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Maston<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:06 AM
Subject: Tire pressure for lower rolling resistance?
Will I have lower rolling resistance with a higher pressure tire in
the
same size and weight rating as a lower pressure tire? The tires I'm
considering are 175/70-13: Sumitomo HTR 200 @ 51 PSI max and an H
speed
rating, and Goodyear Integrity @ 44 PSI max and an S speed rating.
Both
have an 82 load rating (1047 pounds) at max pressure.
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
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You are invited to attend the Chico chapter of the Electric Auto Association
or "EAA".
Learn more about:
� Electric automobiles
� How to convert a car to electric
� Hybrid automobiles
� Fuel cell powered automobiles
� Compressed natural gas automobiles
Date: Saturday, Mar. 12th from 11 am. The meeting is FREE, and all are
welcome.
Join us at Chuck Alldrin's home located at:
930 West 11th Ave
Chico, CA 95926
530-899-1835
Directions:
Go West on 11th Ave.. 1/4 mile past Holly on the North side. Look for the
black mailbox and Birch trees.
We need you at the meeting to help our new EAA chapter in Chico. If you are
not now affiliated with a local chapter, we would welcome you to transfer to
our chapter.
EV's of all types (i.e.: autos, scooters, skateboards) and Hybrids are
welcome.
For more information call:
Chuck Alldrin
530-899-1835
www.energy-alternatives.com
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***************************************************************
Chuck Alldrin Chico, CA. KN6JS Ham call
"If my people...will humble themselves and pray...I will heal their land."
II Chronicles 7:14
***************************************************************
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I haven't used them enough to have any good data on that. How much watering
they need is directly related to how much overcharge you give them. This
can vary depending on use. Since they are NiCads you can always undercharge
them a bit and not water hardly at all. For the most part this has been my
pattern. I have actually been surprised at how little water they have used.
damon
From: Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2005 22:56:13 -0500
damon henry wrote:
Watering the Safts is the same as the Marathon's. Unscrew the valve
cover, and water with syringe, then repeat on next cell. It's not bad on
my motorcycle, because there are not that many cells and they are easy to
get at. For most cars it would be a real bummer though.
I was actually wondering how often you have to water them. Weekly? Monthly?
About as often as a flooded lead acid or more?
Chris
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Hi Patrick,
I might. I will have to check the voltage/amperage specs tho. Its a spare
Curtis PMC for my 1981 Jet Electrica (Escort version) that I sold off a
couple years ago. Contact me OL if its of interest and i will dig it out and
test.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Maston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 8:53 AM
Subject: Controller Wanted
Anyone have a 120V, 500+ Amp controller they'd like to sell?
Thanks,
Patrick Maston
1981 Jet Electrica
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--- Begin Message ---
Ignoring tire wear, ride quality, and handling issues for the moment,
wouldn't you get the least rolling resistance by being as far below
the rated load as possible, and as high a pressure as possible?
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> Try to get as close as possible.
>
> On my EV, I have 65 PSI at 2500 lbs rated tires of which I have
> 2376 lbs on each rear tires and 1188 lbs on each front tire.
>
> Therefore:
>
> (65 x 2376)/2500 = about 62 lbs on the rear and
>
> (65 x 1188)/2500 = about 31 lbs on the front.
> ...
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
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I'll be glad to do the experiment. My cells are older (just like
yours--no new ones yet). I did notice a fairly large variation in the
internal resistance and capacity at the 25A load. I stopped discharge
for about 1 minute every 10 minutes in an attempt to measure the
internal resistance as a function of SOC.
However, I mostly noticed the large variation in internal resistance and
capacity between cells. (I guess I need to get that data on my website).
I would be glad to run cycles at various loads (say 5A increments to 25A).
There might be a break-in effect, so perhaps I should run a few cycles
first just to get them going.
I measure the temperature--I guess I could try to control it as well.
(Someone (whose name escapes me) visiting from AC Propulsion suggested
keeping them in the 20-30C range for best life).
Any other considerations?
Gary
================
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue Mar 8, 2005 7:33 pm
Subject: Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
Lee Hart wrote:
> Why don't you try some
> discharge tests on one of your ThunderSkys at several different load
> currents, and see how many amphours you get to some defined cutoff
> voltage? Plot the points on a graph and see what their Peukert exponent
> turns out to be.
Poor excuse, but basically, lack of time.
I believe Gary Graunke already did such tests
since has somewhat automated logging gear. If I recall though, his
exoeriments were aimed to cover many cells at the same discharge rate
to compare them and collect statistics, not the same cell at different
rates to determine Peukert value. I'll ask him if he can do it, as
modifying his setup is easier than for me to put together logging
hardware.
--
Victor
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The original pdf file showed that there were 6 banded pallets at 32,000 lbs.
total.
Therefore 32000/6= 5,333 lbs per pallet, and 9000 cells / 6 = 1,500 cells.
Tim would not have to repack anything, just reship one of the pallets....
Just thinking outloud...
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan B" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
>
> I went back to freightquote and checkbox hazardous material, seems all
> they wanted contact info.
>
> I increased the shipping weight to 2000 lbs, 4 pallets (4'x4')
> non-stackable gives a quote of $865. Not too bad compared to $525 for
> half the weight. Cuts shipping to $432.50 /1000Lbs.
> I would have to pick up from Old Dominion terminal unless I pay extra
> (maybe a good idea considering 2000Lbs - about $75-100 for delivery)
> More weight may offer a greater individual $ savings on shipping.
> I can firm up the quote once the number of cells being transported is
> known.
> Why do the good buys always seem to be located on the east coast?
> ----
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>Did you let the shipper know that this would be a hazardous material shipment?
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: "Bryan B" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: <[email protected]>
>>Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:58 PM
>>Subject: BB-600 Nicad Cells
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Hi,
>>>Anyone in the northern california looking to buy some? Shipping for 300
>>>is over 525, but for more cells coming to california, the cost-per-unit
>>>should go down.
>>>Interested? We would pay Tim individually, then pay for the total
>>>shipping using freightquote.com. Could store them here if needed for
>>>pickup? I get a sizable discount through them. Or can someone get even
>>>more of a discount? Any better ideas?
>>>Bryan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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