EV Digest 4167
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: BB-600 NiCad Cells
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction) an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: PM w/ separate lead for each brush?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: chatting with GM
by "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Prefab battery boxes available for VW conversions?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Peukerts for LI-Poly (was Re: Additional outside funding)
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Tire pressure for lower rolling resistance?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: AC Bandsaw motor questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 9' ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Jeep EV Update (New Controller!)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Comet CVT/Torque converters in a lightweight ev?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) article: Bendy batteries: the MIT Slimcell
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction) an' Stuff
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 9' ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) all chapters EV conference in Austin TX
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction) an'
Stuff
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: article: Bendy batteries: the MIT Slimcell
by "Brown, Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Tire pressure for lower rolling resistance?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Tire pressure for lower rolling resistance?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 4:17 PM +0000 on 3/8/05, damon henry wrote:
Of course a tool like this is simple to make. I made mine from a
syringe we used for giving the kids medicine (I had several of them
laying around) and a piece of insulation from some 10 guage wire I
had stripped.
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
The issue with this cells is watering, there is a special tool you
absolutely need to have correct level (watering is often and vital for cells
like BB-600 because they have tiny water reserve and high water consuption)
Is there an "automatic" watering system available for these? I know
Saft sells them along with other of their battery models. Or is this
just not possible with these cells?
I'm very interested in these, but if I have to spend hours every week
painstakingly injecting 50ml of distilled water into each of the 400
or so cells I'd have in my vehicle manually (or something like it),
I'm not sure the extra lifespan is worth it.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
This was done back in 1975!!!
When I pick up my EV call the Transformer I from the Electric Fuel
Propulsion Company in Troy, Michigan, it had 1056 test miles on it. They
wanted to prove to all the critics that a EV can be driven 1000 miles in 24
hours.
This car had 300 AH lead cobalt cells that had the plates tie together at
the top and bottom. On a road course and or test track they drove the 1056
miles in 24 hours averaging 44 mph.
The car has a top speed of 92 mph at 6000 rpm in 4th gear with a ratio of
5.57:1. The battery pack was charge to 100+ percent at start to 1.320+
specific gravity.
About every hour of driving, the battery would be charge with a large off
board charging station starting at 300 AMPS!!! FOR 15 TO 20 MINUTES to 80
percent charge and then the drivers would go again.
It was also a endurance test to see if they can break down any components on
the EV. They had to replace one small 25 amp diode.
When I received the car, I drove it for 10 years, replacing only THREE
CELLS!! at a cost of $30.00 a cell. My driving here in Montana could be
call extreme by some EV drivers today. My daily driving to work was
starting from my home which is at a bottom of a long steep hill that is 3
miles long to my work site on top of hill.
I would pull about 600 amps at 60 mph going up this hill for about 3
minutes. The voltage lag was only to 170 volts on a 180 volt battery pack
that was CHARGE TO 2.77 VOLTS PER CELL OR ABOUT 250 VOLTS.
Ohh, it was great driving that EV in the winter time at -30 below going up
that hill, that was not plow yet very early in the morning passing all the
ICE's that was slipping and sliding all over the place. This car would walk
right up that hill.
Roland
Hi Roland;
Thanks for the Transformer update, that was a tad after my tenure at EFP.
Did you drive the Transformer home from Detroit? Back then ya coulda driven
from Detroit to Chicago with the power from Holiday Inns set up for the
purpose. Bob had all that in place in about 1970 or so. The nice thing about
the EFP batteries was that you could melt the sealing goo and pull a bum
cell out, resoldering, Burning I think they in the Bat. Biz call it,
reconnecting everything. Could do that with ALL the batteries when I was a
kid.
EFP cars had International Rectifier 3 phaze 240 volt rectifyer power
supplies, a off-the-shelf unit that you could walk in off the pavement and
buy, at their wherehouse. You controlled it with a 5 k pot, I think, crank
it up to 300 [EMAIL PROTECTED] volts. Things would hum like hell and the air was
charged with sheer power. Ya needed 2 ought power cables to the box, GOBS of
power. BUT, and this is a damn big but. WHERE do you get this? Sureashell
not at home, unless you pay Edison Big money to give you a 3 faze service
drop. They don't do that HERE in CT, no residential 3 faze. All this would
warm Rich Rudman's heart, I'm sure?Rich could have set us up with a voltasge
control like the PFC's do. We didn't have that back then, had to carefully
baby sit the fast charge or quit before things bubbled! These things would
be set up like Bob had planned. Much as EFP is/was sort of ridiculed, he DID
have some damn good ideas, Fast Charging, and higher traction
voltages-120-144 or so.Remember the bad old 24 or 48 volt EV daze, back in
the 60's? Aircraft starters, cables the size of your fingers to carry 400
amp cruising speeds Everything speedwise is right on as Roland sez! Lots of
battery amps pumped into a big motor.Sorta old hat, on the MAX or Amtrak.
Wish we coulda gotten our act together at EFP. Bob had some good ideas, but
we couldn't settle on ONE basic EV, conversion, to get a poz cash flow.
American Motors, remember them? THEY were willing to sell us gliders set up
for conversion, brakes, springs etc. We, Ron and I wanted to do a Gremlin,
yeah, they're ugly, but woulda worked as a BASIC EV, we coulda turned out
hundreds, in a few years. The doors, windows, seats, and stuff ya take for
granted, would be THERE already. Unlike say, Citicar. The Hornet Sportabout
made a decent Wagon conversion, the Matador was a bigger car, we did one of
them, too. Carry off 6 people across town, nicely. The Transformer was an
outgrowth of the relatively sucessful Matador conversion.
So much for a bit of EV history<g>!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eight brushes alternating around the commutator look like eight batteries
connected positive to positive and negative to negative alternating around
the perimeter.
Assuming the virtual batteries are 12 volts each, there would be 12 volts
between each pair of brushes.
Assuming the motor field is stock, if you numbered the brushes 1 through 8
the even numbered ones would be 12 volts if the odd numbered ones are
grounded. The polarity of each segment of commutator is determined by the
magnet polarity acting on that segment of the armature.
Therefore if you wanted to have a 12 volt motor, the field magnets would be
NSNSNSNS around the perimeter of the armature.
If you wanted a 24 volt motor, you would need to rearrange the magnets to be
NNSSNNSS which would cause brushes to be 0,12,24,12,0,12,24,12 around the
perimeter of the motor.
If you wanted a 48 volt motor, you would need to rearrange the magnets to be
NNNNSSSS which would cause brushes to be 0,12,24,36,48,36,24,12 around the
perimeter of the motor.
In order to build a flexible motor like you describe, you must change the
field polarity on each segment of the field separately. You cannot do this
with a PM motor but you can do it with a wound field motor.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 11:12 PM
Subject: Re: PM w/ separate lead for each brush?
> Myles Twete wrote:
> >>I sure wish the E-Tek were made that way,
> >>It's got 8 brushes, 4 pairs, Imagine all the
> >>Series, Series/Parallel, Parallel switching
> >>modes you could play with in a single motor!
> >
> > And you could be the first.
> > How difficult would it be to separate the brush leads, add more
terminals
> > and go gonzo?
>
> Humm, actually, Didn't Lawrence or someone do just that rescently?
>
> The brush interconnects? got fried, melted, zorched or something.
> Anyway, I'm betting that the actual brushes and commutater were
> just fine, and melted interconnect material probably produces some
> "unwanted" shorts throught the motor.
>
> But should you remove them under say, a more controlled environment.
> What would be the result? It's difficult for me to even speculate
> as I haven't had the good misforture of exploring that part of the
> E-Tek motor. All I know is that there is internal connectivity
> between every other brush, via the blown out interconnect I presume.
>
> So, eight brushes, staggered evenly on the com bar, producing four
> fields with the same orientation, which shift possition as the com
> rotates, right? (so how are the magnets orientated exactly?, anyway)
> ( I might already be way off base here ? )
> So, the interconnects do what? connect these four fields internally,
> why? aren't they already all currently in parallel since the brushes
> are all tied (alternately) to either the positive or negetive posts?
> ( See, this is why I think I must be wrong )
> So, removing the interconnects should have no effect, correct?
> Once the fields were isolated I see no reason why one couldn't
> break the current brush connections and reconnect them in various
> configurations, all in series, a series pair in parallel, or parallel
> in the stock 48v configurations. It I'm close then you would have
> yourself a 12-24-48v motor, 18v/rpm,36v/rpm,72v/rpm motor. Although
> it might also change current handeling capacity aswell to something
> like [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] due to the loss
> of brush/com contact.
> Properly cooled it might be possible to double the current, and since
> the interconnect weakness is gone perhaps it would survive more abuse?
>
> Pinch me and tell me I'm way off base or I'll have to brake an e-tek.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One mighty heavy pallet. I would have to do the math but seems like it would
be large too. I wonder what the weight/size limit is using this freightquote
service? Would almost have to be a dock delivery, doubt that a 6K lb pallet
would be gateable or pallet jackable. Also, I tried to get an estimate to
85331 and it returned "no carrier available". Also just thinking outloud.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
The original pdf file showed that there were 6 banded pallets at 32,000
lbs. total.
Therefore 32000/6= 5,333 lbs per pallet, and 9000 cells / 6 = 1,500 cells.
Tim would not have to repack anything, just reship one of the pallets....
Just thinking outloud...
Rush
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan B" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 9:14 PM
Subject: Re: BB-600 Nicad Cells
I went back to freightquote and checkbox hazardous material, seems all
they wanted contact info.
I increased the shipping weight to 2000 lbs, 4 pallets (4'x4')
non-stackable gives a quote of $865. Not too bad compared to $525 for
half the weight. Cuts shipping to $432.50 /1000Lbs.
I would have to pick up from Old Dominion terminal unless I pay extra
(maybe a good idea considering 2000Lbs - about $75-100 for delivery)
More weight may offer a greater individual $ savings on shipping.
I can firm up the quote once the number of cells being transported is
known.
Why do the good buys always seem to be located on the east coast?
----
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Did you let the shipper know that this would be a hazardous material
shipment?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan B" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 4:58 PM
Subject: BB-600 Nicad Cells
Hi,
Anyone in the northern california looking to buy some? Shipping for 300
is over 525, but for more cells coming to california, the cost-per-unit
should go down.
Interested? We would pay Tim individually, then pay for the total
shipping using freightquote.com. Could store them here if needed for
pickup? I get a sizable discount through them. Or can someone get even
more of a discount? Any better ideas?
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 23:20:41 +0200, Jukka J�rvinen wrote:
> If cell is say 10 celsius when starting the discharge say 3C. It will
> heat only little during the discharge and voltage drops to 2,5V after 18
> minutes or so. We stop the discharge. Now what is going on with
> battery... voltage rises again. If you keep dischargign the cell and
> lighten the throttle to keep the voltage in 2,5 V you will end up with
> rated capasity.
Lead-acid batteries behave similar. IMHO, Peukert happens with all
chemical batteries because the speed of chemical reaction is limited in
all cases.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Sherry & All,
Subject: SAE 2005 World Congress
April 11-14, 2005
Cobo Center, Detroit, Michigan
Host Company: General Motors
Unless you're already an SAE member (& live near Detroit or can get cheap
airfare), the attendance price is pretty steep. But there's probably
something for everyone at next months SAE meeting. It's of course geared
towards ICE-heads, but *maybe* this is your chance to get up close &
personal with auto industry movers and shakers (including Mr. Lutz hisself)
to understand where they're coming from (and perhaps inject an alternatiEV
approach:-)
Detailed session info & calendar at:
http://www.sae.org/calendar/techsess/63532.pdf
Following are just a few of the 40+ seminars & 250+ tech sessions:
- Bob Lutz, Vice Chairman, General Motors delivers a keynote address on
"The Lost Art of Fun".
http://www.sae.org/servlets/newsletter?LINK=CONG05EMLa013&PID=4558250
- The Hands-on Race Car Suspension Set-up Seminar in partnership with Panoz
Racing School will feature a TransAm, Champ car, Star Mazda, Porsche GT, and
Panoz Esperante stationed on the SAE Exhibition.
http://www.sae.org/servlets/newsletter?LINK=CONG05EMLa016&PID=4558250
- POWER PANEL - "Hybrids vs. Diesels vs. Modified Gasoline, the Near Term -
Is it time for a reality check?" moderated by Paul Eisenstein, publisher of
TheCarConnection features leading industry experts from Delphi,
DaimlerChrysler, Toyota, Bosch, U.S. EPA and General Motors.
http://www.sae.org/servlets/newsletter?LINK=CONG05EMLa027&PID=4558250
- Specialized sessions take place every day on "Diesel Exhaust Emissions
Control" covering "DPF Systems and Substrates", "Durability", "Modeling",
"HC-DeNOx", and more.
http://www.sae.org/servlets/newsletter?LINK=CONG05EMLa009&PID=4558250
- For the first time ever, the April Detroit Section Meeting featuring
General Motors - Hummer H-3, Corvette Z06, and Pontiac Solstice, will be
held at Cobo Center during SAE World Congress.
http://www.sae.org/servlets/newsletter?LINK=CONG05EMLa054&PID=4558250
cheers!
Jim Waite
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:50:16 -0800, Lightning Ryan wrote:
> Right, but I was under the impression that at high rates PbA will only
> deliver a fraction of it's lower rate nameplate capacity. After such
> a high rate discharge you can't lower the rate and get the other half
> of it's capacity out because it's lost due to Puckerts.
No, the energy is not lost. Please read through the following paper:
http://www.ee.ncue.edu.tw/note/data/o/21/91.pdf
A similar effect probably happens to Lithium cells.
Of course, there are also higher resistive losses with high discharge
currents. But, this may be compensated by higher reactivity of the
chemicals through the higher temperature in the cell. Lithium cells may
have here a higher gradient than lead-acid.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone make prefab battery boxes that would fit a VW Bug conversion?
Mark Freidberg
______________________________________________________________________
Speed up your surfing with NetZero HiSpeed.
Now includes pop-up blocker!
Only $14.95/month -visit http://www.netzero.com/surf to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Went to http://www.saftbatteries.com/090-MS_Road/20-20-30_Electric_vehicle.asp
and got some info about watering their batteries. They have many probe
diameters and spacers, so I guess the process can be applied to any battery if
the probe and spacer dimensions are deciphered.
http://www.saftbatteries.com//130-Catalogue/PDF/celltopper_en.pdf
http://www.saftbatteries.com//130-Catalogue/PDF/commis-kit_en.pdf
http://www.saftbatteries.com//130-Catalogue/PDF/wfs_en.pdf
Notice in this how the battery pack containing 42 cells and how the battery
terminals are protected. The pack is charged as a whole, not individually.
http://www.saftbatteries.com//130-Catalogue/PDF/tm_bb.pdf
This is what Saft says is in about 8000 or 80% of todays EV's.
Rush
Tucson AZ
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Heating the cell will level out the "loss" in the low SOC. Getting
better performance and less V sag. But the whole issue seems to haul
around on the cut off voltage.
I tried to find out more about the lower end of TS cells by destroying
cells until reversed. I used 50 Ah cells. I coul not dare do it with
over 200 Ah cells yet. Little too pricy game.
I left cells to hang in 0.15 , 0.5 , 1.0 , 1.9 and 2.2 V for months. I
expected some thing to happen in chemistry vice. Cells under 1 V were
not perfec anymore. 1,9 V and up, perfect.
Going repeatedly under 2 V will eventually show up as reduced cell
performance. With lithium ,as mentioned many times, voltage is NOT a
indication of SOC. You need much more to even to use it as reference.
Temp, lifetime, original Rint, load, etc.
-Jukka
Emil Naepflein kirjoitti:
On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 16:50:16 -0800, Lightning Ryan wrote:
Right, but I was under the impression that at high rates PbA will only
deliver a fraction of it's lower rate nameplate capacity. After such
a high rate discharge you can't lower the rate and get the other half
of it's capacity out because it's lost due to Puckerts.
No, the energy is not lost. Please read through the following paper:
http://www.ee.ncue.edu.tw/note/data/o/21/91.pdf
A similar effect probably happens to Lithium cells.
Of course, there are also higher resistive losses with high discharge
currents. But, this may be compensated by higher reactivity of the
chemicals through the higher temperature in the cell. Lithium cells may
have here a higher gradient than lead-acid.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Will I have lower rolling resistance with a higher pressure tire in the
> same size and weight rating as a lower pressure tire? The tires I'm
> considering are 175/70-13: Sumitomo HTR 200 @ 51 PSI max and an H speed
> rating, and Goodyear Integrity @ 44 PSI max and an S speed rating. Both
> have an 82 load rating (1047 pounds) at max pressure.
>
Rolling resistance is affected by more than just tire pressure, tire
compound plays a big part too. You can't really tell for sure which tire
will have a lower rolling resistance without actually testing them.
Your best bet is to contact the manufacturer and give them the details on
your vehicle (approx weight on each tire, etc.) and ask them which tire
they offer has the lowest rolling resistance for that vehicle.
Of course that won't help you decide which tire has better RR between two
different manufacturers though.
There is a fellow at Goodyear (Bill Egan?) that I've contacted in the past
and he will recommend a Goodyear tire that will work best for you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just out of curiousity, have you checked with the power company to see how
much it would cost to have three phase power installed?
Probably more expensive than either option you've mentioned, but it
doesn't cost anythng to ask.
> I just got a old bandsaw (Moak, 36 inch, made in 1967). It has a Baldor 3
> phase, 5 HP, 230/460V motor on it, with a GE 300 In line Mag starter
> switch. I don't have 3 phase, so I can get a static phase converter for
> about $125 from andersonconverters.com. But it will only give me about 3
> HP instead of the 5 HP of the motor, I also understand that it will really
> use amps. Or I can trade out the motor for a new/used 5 hp, 220 V motor.
> It is a direct drive with a keyed shaft, so I might need a shaft adapter.
>
> Which is my best option? Use the existing motor and get a static converter
> or get a new 1 phase motor?
>
> Thanks for the help,
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.6.4 - Release Date: 3/7/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is what I would do.
Use a trolley jack to hold the motor/tranny in the proper position.
Attach the bolts at the rear of the transmission.
Attach the front motor mount to the car.
Use a grease pencil/etc. to mark the position of the front mount on the
motor. Probably good idea to add an index mark that goes across the motor
onto the mount.
Take the motor and mount to a local machine shop (check the yellow pages).
have them drill and tap the holes for you. Should be fairly cheap as this
is a simple operation.
Problem solved.
P.S. if you can't find a machine shop, a good auto-mechanic could do it
too, I'd look for someone that does custom work, i.e. custom 4wd vehicles,
race cars, etc.
P.P.S. try to avoid getting shavings inside the motor and clean them out
if you do get them in.
> Thanks for your response.
>
> The mount is a 90-degree welded steel piece with angle pieces on the
> sides to add rigidity. The engine/tranny combo in the 914 has a total
> of four bolts holding it in the car -- two on the far end of the
> transmission at the rear of the car, and this piece, at the front of
> the motor ("front" meaning the part of the motor closest to the front
> of the car). It's definitely needed to hold the motor up, though
> *maybe* two tranny bolts could hold it temporarily if they were tight
> enough. I doubt a band clamp would work very well, since my
> understanding is that it wouldn't do a very good job preventing
> rotation, and there's really nothing else in the engine compartment to
> which one could mount the motor. I would have a very tough time trying
> to machine a proper support that would attach to a band clamp, but if
> it turns out that's the only solution...
>
> -Ben
>
>
>
> On Mar 8, 2005, at 3:46 PM, Dave wrote:
>
>> Can you use a band clamp (Similar to a hose clamp) to attach the motor
>> case to the bracket? Does the bracket support weight or is it simply
>> an anti-rotation mount? Could you weld studs to the motor case to line
>> up with the holes in the bracket?
>>
>> David C. Wilker Jr. USAF (RET)
>> Children need love, especially when they do not deserve it.
>> - Harold
>> S. Hulbert
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:25 AM
>> Subject: 9" ADC aft mounting holes (rather, lack thereof)
>>
>>
>>> *sigh* Yet another bump in the road to having an electric vehicle...
>>>
>>> I was all set to hoist my 9" ADC into my Porsche 914 this week so
>>> that I could design my battery boxes around it. I've bolted on my
>>> adapter plate from Electro Automotive and went to bolt on the
>>> mounting bracket (also from electro auto), which attaches to the tail
>>> end of the motor and a cross-bar in the engine compartment, when I
>>> discovered that my motor has no mounting holes.
>>>
>>> The aft end of the motor (the end opposite the transmission; the end
>>> with the commutator) has a tail shaft, four bolts that hold the face
>>> onto the motor, four *tiny* holes (1/16th inch?), and no places to
>>> attach the mount using a pair of 3/8" bolts. Even the little tiny
>>> holes aren't spaced correctly to match up with my electro auto
>>> adapter. Until today, I had thought I was just supposed to take out
>>> two of the bolts that mount the aluminum face of the motor to the
>>> rest of the case and replace them with longer ones, but alas, I was
>>> quite wrong, as those holes don't line up either.
>>>
>>> Has anyone else run into this problem? Any suggestions? I'm not a
>>> machinist and I don't have the right tools to drill and tap the holes
>>> myself.
>>>
>>> If people need pictures, let me know and I'll go take some.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> -Ben
>>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do the HV wires for the DC-DC connect directly to the battery pack or to ...?
> At 10:29 PM -0600 3-7-05, Nick Viera wrote:
>>Since I installed my Zilla, my DC/DC converter has begun blowing its
>>input fuse. I own a DCP DC/DC converter. Basically, it appears the
>>DC/DC converter works fine when the Jeep is off. However, when I
>>turn on the Jeep (by taking the ignition switch to the start
>>position to activate the Zilla), the DC/DC converter's input fuse
>>would blow within a minute or two. This appears to be a repeatable
>>occurrence.
>
> Well that sure is odd.
> I wonder if it's the load of the contactor on the 12V system, or some
> of the top secret Alien sourced parts from outer space that I use in
> the Zilla causing the problem? :-)
>
> A few questions:
>
> Unfortunately this might cost you a few fuses to figure out...
>
> Were you driving when it blew? If yes then what did you set your Low
> Battery Voltage cutback to? (Battery menu, setting v) If it's too low
> then the DC-DC might be trying too hard to keep up and draw too much
> current. Since you have a 160V pack, I would try it at no less than
> 110V.
>
> Does it blow if you start the controller and do not drive?
>
> Does it blow if you do not start the controller, but just turn on the
> headlights for ten minutes?
>
> Is your DC-DC wired so it is always on, 100% of the time, or does it
> have it's own relay for turning it on?
>
> That's all I can think to ask at the moment.
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Efficiency wise, you'd probably be better off using a two-speed chain
drive with a sprauge-clutch for the low speed gear and a centrifugal
clutch for the high speed.
I haven't actually tried this yet, so I'm not sure how well it'd work.
> I'm bouncing around the idea of a light weight 3 wheeler EV probably 48
> volts an ETek and matching PM millipak controller. Probably not much
> heavier than a similar motorbike. If I use a single gear ratio even
> though it's light I'm concerned not having any low end accelleration and
> also still have enough to go 50mph or so.
>
> Someone suggested a comet torque converters that say they act as a CVT.
> Looking up I think the Comet 44 Magnum it gives an 18hp max and shows
> 1.24:1 - 2.83:1 ratio at engaged 800rpm - 4000 rpm. Note sure if that
> means at lower RPMs it doesn't turn or from 0-800 rpms it moves through
> it's range. I wrote them for more info but I was wondering if anyone on
> the list had used something like it before? Seems to easy to be a
> solution. Couldn't find anything in the evalbum about it.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another new cell design, giving 250 wh/kg:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/03/bendy_batteries.php
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
There was no charging stations going north out of Detroit going over the Mack.
Bridge, so I haul in on a U-haul carrier. The car had a built in on board
charger that I could crank up to 50 amps. This charger would work on 120/240
single phase and 208 Y or 250 D three phase.
My power going past my house is three phase, which only two of the phases went
to my house. I had the power company tap up the power to 125/250 volts. If I
wanted to, I could add two dry type transformers in my circuit breaker room to
change this to a open Delta three phase.
I could had drove the car from Detroit to Montana using a optional plug in
motor generator, which this car was all set up for. This was a 37.5 KW 3 phase
alternator connected up in Delta which 250 volts going through a 3 phase
rectifier that jack the voltage up to 280 volts, that could drive the motor
directly and charge the batteries which was rated for 300 amps.
A person could used this as standby power for there home or as a power supply
for on site welding.
These are the best batteries, I even had. There were about 18 inches high and
in a epoxy coated insulated box that extended below the bed of the car. I
transfer the EV system into its Sistor Car a 1977 El Camino, so I can have 12
inch high batteries inside the car.
I have contacted Robert Aronsson about a new set of Cobalt Lead batteries,
which are made in a smaller size that may fit this car. He is now located at:
Apollo Energy Systems
2301 N.W. 33rd Court
Pompand Beach
Florida, 33069
Tel. (888) 783-7050
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Web: www.apolloenergysystems.com<http://www.apolloenergysystems.com/>
They are now in the production in there new plant making fuel cells design by
Dr. Karl Kordesch work as scientist for the Union Carbide. He has built and
design Alkaline Fuel Cells for General Motors and Ford Company, they are now in
production of fuel cells for the military and government divisions.
These units are used as standby power and power in remote areas. They are in
design of a proto type EV that will run with on Cobalt Batteries and 50 KW fuel
cell that can run the vehicle or/and charge the batteries.
This will be my next mod to my EV.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Rice<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction) an' Stuff
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: Pipe dreams - 1,000 mile EV (was Re: Introduction)
This was done back in 1975!!!
When I pick up my EV call the Transformer I from the Electric Fuel
Propulsion Company in Troy, Michigan, it had 1056 test miles on it. They
wanted to prove to all the critics that a EV can be driven 1000 miles in 24
hours.
This car had 300 AH lead cobalt cells that had the plates tie together at
the top and bottom. On a road course and or test track they drove the 1056
miles in 24 hours averaging 44 mph.
The car has a top speed of 92 mph at 6000 rpm in 4th gear with a ratio of
5.57:1. The battery pack was charge to 100+ percent at start to 1.320+
specific gravity.
About every hour of driving, the battery would be charge with a large off
board charging station starting at 300 AMPS!!! FOR 15 TO 20 MINUTES to 80
percent charge and then the drivers would go again.
It was also a endurance test to see if they can break down any components on
the EV. They had to replace one small 25 amp diode.
When I received the car, I drove it for 10 years, replacing only THREE
CELLS!! at a cost of $30.00 a cell. My driving here in Montana could be
call extreme by some EV drivers today. My daily driving to work was
starting from my home which is at a bottom of a long steep hill that is 3
miles long to my work site on top of hill.
I would pull about 600 amps at 60 mph going up this hill for about 3
minutes. The voltage lag was only to 170 volts on a 180 volt battery pack
that was CHARGE TO 2.77 VOLTS PER CELL OR ABOUT 250 VOLTS.
Ohh, it was great driving that EV in the winter time at -30 below going up
that hill, that was not plow yet very early in the morning passing all the
ICE's that was slipping and sliding all over the place. This car would walk
right up that hill.
Roland
Hi Roland;
Thanks for the Transformer update, that was a tad after my tenure at EFP.
Did you drive the Transformer home from Detroit? Back then ya coulda driven
from Detroit to Chicago with the power from Holiday Inns set up for the
purpose. Bob had all that in place in about 1970 or so. The nice thing about
the EFP batteries was that you could melt the sealing goo and pull a bum
cell out, resoldering, Burning I think they in the Bat. Biz call it,
reconnecting everything. Could do that with ALL the batteries when I was a
kid.
EFP cars had International Rectifier 3 phaze 240 volt rectifyer power
supplies, a off-the-shelf unit that you could walk in off the pavement and
buy, at their wherehouse. You controlled it with a 5 k pot, I think, crank
it up to 300 [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> volts. Things would
hum like hell and the air was
charged with sheer power. Ya needed 2 ought power cables to the box, GOBS of
power. BUT, and this is a damn big but. WHERE do you get this? Sureashell
not at home, unless you pay Edison Big money to give you a 3 faze service
drop. They don't do that HERE in CT, no residential 3 faze. All this would
warm Rich Rudman's heart, I'm sure?Rich could have set us up with a voltasge
control like the PFC's do. We didn't have that back then, had to carefully
baby sit the fast charge or quit before things bubbled! These things would
be set up like Bob had planned. Much as EFP is/was sort of ridiculed, he DID
have some damn good ideas, Fast Charging, and higher traction
voltages-120-144 or so.Remember the bad old 24 or 48 volt EV daze, back in
the 60's? Aircraft starters, cables the size of your fingers to carry 400
amp cruising speeds Everything speedwise is right on as Roland sez! Lots of
battery amps pumped into a big motor.Sorta old hat, on the MAX or Amtrak.
Wish we coulda gotten our act together at EFP. Bob had some good ideas, but
we couldn't settle on ONE basic EV, conversion, to get a poz cash flow.
American Motors, remember them? THEY were willing to sell us gliders set up
for conversion, brakes, springs etc. We, Ron and I wanted to do a Gremlin,
yeah, they're ugly, but woulda worked as a BASIC EV, we coulda turned out
hundreds, in a few years. The doors, windows, seats, and stuff ya take for
granted, would be THERE already. Unlike say, Citicar. The Hornet Sportabout
made a decent Wagon conversion, the Matador was a bigger car, we did one of
them, too. Carry off 6 people across town, nicely. The Transformer was an
outgrowth of the relatively sucessful Matador conversion.
So much for a bit of EV history<g>!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 9, 2005, at 5:33 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Here is what I would do.
Use a trolley jack to hold the motor/tranny in the proper position.
Attach the bolts at the rear of the transmission.
Attach the front motor mount to the car.
Use a grease pencil/etc. to mark the position of the front mount on the
motor. Probably good idea to add an index mark that goes across the
motor
onto the mount.
What kind of precision is required in aligning the motor in the car?
Is this enough? What happens if the motor goes in slightly crooked,
will things tear themselves apart? If this is good enough, it's almost
tempting to buy a tap and just use my cordless drill with a 3/8" bit,
though I guess I'd need to be *very* careful I was going at it straight
and didn't mess it up. I'd probably still take it to a machinist just
to be sure.
Does anyone know where I can find the dimensions of that back plate and
where the holes should be online, perhaps if I contact ADC? If I could
get the proper dimensions, I could take those (rather than a couple
grease marks) and the end piece to a machinist and get the holes
drilled/tapped where they're supposed to be. That would probably be
the easiest, cheapest, and safest solution.
Thanks again! Your responses have all been great
-Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I intend to go to this all chapters meeting in Austin.
I will be driving the southern route along highway 10
from San Diego to Austin anyone along the route that
wants a ride and is not tooo far off that route e-mail
me and see if we can hook up.
thanks
Keith
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:15 PM 3/8/2005, Bob Rice wrote:
it up to 300 [EMAIL PROTECTED] volts. Things would hum like hell and the air was
charged with sheer power. Ya needed 2 ought power cables to the box, GOBS of
power. BUT, and this is a damn big but. WHERE do you get this? Sureashell
not at home, unless you pay Edison Big money to give you a 3 faze service
I have a 240v, 350A single phase service at my house.
No problem.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a little more in depth article on this new design.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0%2C13026%2C1423451%2C00.ht
ml
Sounds cool!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Wujek
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 6:46 AM
To: EV List
Subject: article: Bendy batteries: the MIT Slimcell
Another new cell design, giving 250 wh/kg:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/03/bendy_batteries.php
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: David Dymaxion<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: Tire pressure for lower rolling resistance?
Ignoring tire wear, ride quality, and handling issues for the moment,
wouldn't you get the least rolling resistance by being as far below
the rated load as possible, and as high a pressure as possible?
Yes, you would. The ride is very harsh at the highest maximum pressure with a
low rated load. I could not stand this rough ride any longer, so I increase my
deflection rate to 0.75 inch for a much softer ride, which is much better on
the car body.
Roland
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> ...
> Try to get as close as possible.
>
> On my EV, I have 65 PSI at 2500 lbs rated tires of which I have
> 2376 lbs on each rear tires and 1188 lbs on each front tire.
>
> Therefore:
>
> (65 x 2376)/2500 = about 62 lbs on the rear and
>
> (65 x 1188)/2500 = about 31 lbs on the front.
> ...
__________________________________
Celebrate Yahoo!'s 10th Birthday!
Yahoo! Netrospective: 100 Moments of the Web
http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/<http://birthday.yahoo.com/netrospective/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2005 2:39 AM
Subject: Re: Tire pressure for lower rolling resistance?
> Will I have lower rolling resistance with a higher pressure tire in the
> same size and weight rating as a lower pressure tire? The tires I'm
> considering are 175/70-13: Sumitomo HTR 200 @ 51 PSI max and an H speed
> rating, and Goodyear Integrity @ 44 PSI max and an S speed rating. Both
> have an 82 load rating (1047 pounds) at max pressure.
>
Rolling resistance is affected by more than just tire pressure, tire
compound plays a big part too. You can't really tell for sure which tire
will have a lower rolling resistance without actually testing them.
Your best bet is to contact the manufacturer and give them the details on
your vehicle (approx weight on each tire, etc.) and ask them which tire
they offer has the lowest rolling resistance for that vehicle.
Of course that won't help you decide which tire has better RR between two
different manufacturers though.
There is a fellow at Goodyear (Bill Egan?) that I've contacted in the past
and he will recommend a Goodyear tire that will work best for you.
I agree with you, the Goodyear tire I had, which was a poly belted tire, had
the best roll out. Starting out a long steep 3 mile hill, the EV would start
out on top at 35 mph at the entranced to the freeway. It would gain speed up
to 80 mph at the bottom of the hill and would give me a roll out of another 2
miles down to 50 mph which was the just right speed to make the exit to my
home.
Going through the exit slow me down to 35 mph which still propel me up a
slight grade and then down a hill holding it at 30 mph (the speed limit) than
turning on the street and than go another four blocks right into my garage,
USING NO ADDITIONAL POWER ALL THE WAY FROM THE TOP OF THE HILL MORE THAN 5
MILES BACK!!!
Drove with these tires for 10 years, until there was nothing left. I went
back to GoodYear, back in 1985 and they did not list that tire, or even a tire
with that specifications. So I choose Dunlap which was a Nylon-Steel type,
which they say would have a less rolling resistance than the Bias Poly
GoodYear.
When I did the ROLLING DOWN HILL TEST with these tires, THE MAXIMUM SPEED AT
THE BOTTOM OF THE HILL WAS ONLY 65 MPH!!!. I could only get a roll out of
another 1 mile and had to used power to get home.
This is because the Nylon tire, when setting for 8 hours or more, cause it to
have a flat spot and even worst when it is cooler. This causes a lot of
resistance to this type of tire.
Now they are recommending a POLY BELTED tire for the LLR types.
Roland
--- End Message ---
